Ok, so, yeah.

[Chales]

I'm beginning to question certain standards in this forum, ever since my last fanfiction got closed. (Feel free to look at it, honestly! And see how my self esteem was shattered in the process-- Although, I admit, it felt good. ^^ ) And I'd like it all flaming would be kept from this thread, and if you feel if you're going to bite back at me, please restrain yourself from posting. Arguing is no fun. So moving on,

Quoth Zephyr Flare, 'I request that you have less excuse making and nitpicking of your own for proper reading in future. Change of style is no excuse for skimping, my humour fic is a complete style change yet still tried to get the core basics that make writting readable in there.'

Excuses? Are you serious?....*doesn't get it*..

Now, readers, I have some advices I wish to seek from you. If a fellow reviewer comments on only the description and basically puts down your fanfic in one or two lines, is this considered constructive? Can 'constructive' honestly be built off of the fact one simply dislikes the style? Is this not purely one's opinion? And, if basing the perception on one's exterior opinion, then is this 'helpful' to the terms of the writer, who wishes to grow and accept new changes?

And, also, skimping?

Is it fair for a person to assume one's effort was completely put to waste from the very beginning without having concrete evidence to back this up? What if, let's say, I were to write a story that introduced a new style that I was fond of, and wished to pursue, was not terribly cliche nor was it overused, and immediately people responded to the changes in negative ways, accusing me, quoth, 'When you put time and effort into something, it comes out with more than half arsed lack luster effort screaming I WAS WRITTEN UP IN THE REPLY BOX!'

What if I thought someone's story was tacky and stupid, but is it fair to tell them this because of my own rash perception? My first assumption? My laziness?

So, tell me, since I'm a bit new:

What exactly are serebiiforum's standards on fanfiction? Does everyone, quoth, 'want to write their stories in the same overly-descriptive, backstory-ridden, self-indulgent abomination of a style that passes for the standard on these forums?' Or for once, is simplicity allowed and accepted? Quite frankly, I read some of these fanfiction, and found the overly descriptive ones to make no sense. Not to say they aren't good, as this is my opinion, but I thought better to say against it, for, perhaps in the eyes of others, it was good and perhaps I was missing the point! Or can this be the case for the reviewers, instead? Can simple things be accepted for what they are? If readers dislike the story, as it is 'not their type,' are they justified in handing out such strong critiques without first examining the other side of the story?



So, yes, basic scenario, watered down: tell me something about sppf's grand ole fanfiction forum! Suggest to me what people hate, what people tend to like, and what people, like a herd of cow, tend to flock over to. I'd love to know.



Also:

'Stop trying to minimod please' <- he wasn't.

 

[Yami Ryu]

Let's face it: your review didn't help me. At all. This was the point I was trying to clarify; you can't expect writers to get better by blatantly criticizing. You didn't even have the slightest idea of what you wanted to criticize BEFORE I replied back to your post.

Actually I did. I was lazy. I read your chapter, was gonna reply and saw CrystalSaur had basically needled out what I was gonna snap at you about. So I just added what he didn't- go to advice for aspiring authors. How bad is that? I made up for it in my second post afterall, showing you exactly how I was gonna review before seeing CrystalSaur's, I mean, I get so damn sick and tired of having to point out, crit, and throw advice at for the same darned things I'm chewing you over for.

So yes, insulting a reviewer is really going to get you somewhere.

When you're gonna try and insult someone when they admit 'I was being lazy because someone already pointed out what I was gonna point out so I just decided to throw the advice for aspiring authors thread at you', you don't really succeed when they can give out the whole thing. Like a democrat, you hear what you want to hear, ignore the rest.

:/ and yes Birthday Pirate was trying to minimod.

Anyways;l

Well for one against the rules to write a story in the reply box, if we allow you to slip by, or anyone who is 'good' the noobs will think they can slip by too. It's why I asked a mod first if I could post drabbles. She said while she wouldn't want to close my thread, she'd have too. Allow one person to slip past the rules, the hoard of noobs will find and swarm

See, even I follow the rules and didn't post my drabbles, and instead am writing longer drabbles that can be posted here, without breaking the rules. As while drabbles can be 100/200 words, and even if well written, noobs will use it as an excuse to post poorly. Like they would use it as an excuse if 'oh not describing is a style!' lemme tell you something, not describing fics can be pulled off well. Hell, I enjoyed a Hellsing one that was only dialogue. But over the course of the two characters speaking, the person set up the scene, the characters, and everything. So by the end of the one shot, you were laughing and knew the setting.

Your story did not accomplish that with your poor first person skills, and the poor description, characterization and the other stuff pointed out to you. Stop acting like some high and mighty being and realise, if you can't play by the rules like every other good author here does, then go to Fanfiction.net. They don't give a damn about description and etc there.

 

[Negrek]

Style shouldn't play a part in a review unless it significantly detracts from the meaning or readability of the prose. After all, no style is inherently better or worse than any other, merely different (although I'd argue that some styles are better suited to certain scenarios than others). And yes, any review should provide evidence to back up its argument for or against the 'fic.

Suggest to me what people hate, what people tend to like, and what people, like a herd of cow, tend to flock over to.

The forum in general? There's a vast number of 'fics that are liked, and they cover a range of topics, styles, and quality levels. Popular, established authors tend to get the most attention, simply because everyone knows their name, and their 'fics consequently get high traffic. About the only thing universally hated is prose that looks like it was written by an inexperienced newbie.

However, you're just asking for another thread closure by bringing all your personal woes in here.

 

[CrystalSaurTower]

And yes, any review should provide evidence to back up its argument for or against the 'fic./

All righty then: http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=168878

 

[Negrek]

Eh? I never said that I took issue with a review or something; Chales asked if a review should be backed up with evidence, and I said yes.

 

[Orange_Flaaffy]

Or for once, is simplicity allowed and accepted?

There is a difference between simple and *too* simple. The key is to walk the thin line between the two. I like to think my writing is an example of a balance, it's detailed but not too detailed. I have a learning disablity so too much detail would mix me up after a while and make me forget the subject of what I was reading...
All and all I don't think any of the stories here have too much detail or purple pose...
What do you think is too much?
Since you are a younger member maybe you reading level is not that high yet?
There is not shame in that, some of us have taken years to read and understand the level of writing we do .

All and all, I think the standards of serebii are at least late middle school to early high school level stories, at least when it comes to putting depth to your characters. If a fanfics writing stye is simple often it is balanced out with emotion to be well read here...
We have had many debates about description here before:
Overratted underrated
Tree on fire
Too much too little

 

[BirthdayPirate]

Chales: Stop worrying about what the rest of the forums thinks and just write what you know is quality fiction. If you can manage long enough to actually get somewhere in a fic, the rest of them will be forced to admit that your style has merits. If they still won't admit it... Well, neither you nor I can help them then. :/

Yami Ryu: Stop acting like a Democrat. Look beyond your nose, listen to what people say, and don't be so stubborn.

Negrek: You are most likely correct in assuming that this thread will be closed, but it shouldn't be. Chales is opening up a legitimate, and in my opinion, excellent new view for discussion, and the topic should be allowed to play out.

CrystalSaurTower: Huh? What's the point? If you're suggesting that your review backed up what it said... Well, all you backed it up with was an insistence that he should add more description, we needs to be backed up itself, so...

Orange_Flaafy: Your post was reasonable up until about halfway through, when you brought age into the equation. Age is no indicator of intelligence, and you should not treat it as such.

 

[Act]

Age is no indicator of intelligence, and you should not treat it as such.

Teh fuh? So, my seven-year-old brother of average seven-year-old intellect is equally intelligent as my thriteen-year-old brother with average thirteen-year-old intellect? So if necessary, a 10-year-old could be called upon to do college math? To write an essay with SAT-level vocabulary? And that's just book-smarts. To even begin to imply that age is no idicator of wisdom-type intelligence is more than a tad ludicrous.

And extra WTF-points to telling Yami Ryu to 'Stop acting like a Democrat."

 

[CrystalSaurTower]

CrystalSaurTower: Huh? What's the point? If you're suggesting that your review backed up what it said... Well, all you backed it up with was an insistence that he should add more description, we needs to be backed up itself, so...

I mis-understood negreks post, seeing as I thought he wantd the reviwes in person. And did you see the quotes as examples I used? I surely gave all heart in that review. and also, stop using taunts like 'stop acting like a democrat'. Be mature about this please.

 

[Orange_Flaaffy]

Orange_Flaafy: Your post was reasonable up until about halfway through, when you brought age into the equation. Age is no indicator of intelligence, and you should not treat it as such.

Sometimes it is. Not always but sometimes. Different schools study different levels of writing skills at different ages. I only meant reading level, not overall intelligence, there is a big difference. Some people take more time or more years of life to read higher level writing. Chales said that 'the overly descriptive ones to make no sense' I was only saying that maybe it was a comprehension trouble that would get better with time as one reason they might have trouble.
I don’t see this as a put down because I had to deal with the same sort of thing and it did get better as I got older. It wasn’t meant as a put down...
But Birthday, you seem to be going out of your way to say something bad about every person that's posted

 

[Yami Ryu]

.. lol this topic is so going off topic.

So, my seven-year-old brother of average seven-year-old intellect is equally intelligent as my thriteen-year-old brother with average thirteen-year-old intellect?

Nope. But evidently it is.

Now, most people of average intelligence act their age/have intelligence for their age. The only ones that age does not affect are well, the really smart ones which can do college math at 10. They're rare. I mean the natural ones, not the ones that are schooled/made to learn 24/7 and forget what fun is.

Yami Ryu: Stop acting like a Democrat. Look beyond your nose, listen to what people say, and don't be so stubborn.

Actually my bad, in my first post I should have used politician because there are a few good democrats. I just forget that fact when I have to deal with idiots with closed minds. Like you :/ I already sent you a pm yesterday, if you didn't read it. Your fault you hypocritical little minimodder.

Which I could be labled too, but, I don't go out and try to intentionally start flame wars :/

To quote Flaaffy;

There is a difference between simple and *too* simple. The key is to walk the thin line between the two.

Like they would use it as an excuse if 'oh not describing is a style!' lemme tell you something, not describing fics can be pulled off well. Hell, I enjoyed a Hellsing one that was only dialogue. But over the course of the two characters speaking, the person set up the scene, the characters, and everything. So by the end of the one shot, you were laughing and knew the setting.

As you see, there IS a fine line between enough description, and too little. While I am not overall interested in little description usually, sometimes it can be pulled off well enough where I don't mind, and everything is still set in stone enough for me to see the characters. Such as with Orange Flaaffy's fic, and Lady Myuu's fics.

Chales, accept the fact that your fic was Of. Too. Little. Description. You fell over the thin line Flaaffy mentioned, and you fell hard.


And to quote you:

Quite frankly, I read some of these fanfiction, and found the overly descriptive ones to make no sense. Not to say they aren't good, as this is my opinion, but I thought better to say against it, for, perhaps in the eyes of others, it was good and perhaps I was missing the point!

And it is our right to use our chance and tell you what we don't like about your fic. As it's our opinion. If you don't want it, don't assume everyone is going to be like you, and afraid to review because 'oh I don't like it but it might be good even though I don't like it!' I don't like over described fics really, because it's hard for me to get into them. But that's usually only with J.R.Tolkien's books. But do I say it's bad because I don't get into it? Do I say it makes no sense? No. I just can't get into it cause there's too much description, in my opinion, for the stuff that isn't important.

I wasn't missing the point. I just couldn't get to it.

Then you go and, what was it, claim I didn't get the plot to your fic or something. Yet, you yourself stated, there was no point to your story. You yourself just about said in those few little words 'this has no plot'. Because the point of a story, is a plot.

And I asked, and you never told mind you, what was the plot? So I took a few guesses. An attempt at dark/satire humor over the fact pokemon has become so merchandised the world is brainwashed, in your opinion of course. That people are so blind and stupid only one person is smart to think? That no one gives a crap if an idiot dies from a razor leaf attack? What. You never had enough story for a plot.

Your story was too rushed, too simple, tooooo bad. Stop having a dramaqueen fit and realise your fic was bad :/ not the so called style. The Fic. Why? Because it couldn't get off the ground with how you structured it. You never gave out needed information. And when you did, it felt forced and lacking. Which is really how it felt overall. I am not attacking the style as I have written fics in a simple style sometimes, even if I never posted them, but even when simple I tried to make it good.

:/ so will you just stop making whine threads and accept the fact that, not everyone is gonna love your supposed 'oh so simple style' or writingt, just like you don't love 'indepth overdescribed' fics.

 

[BirthdayPirate]

I'm really getting tired of this, so just let me say: Chales, keep doing what you're doing. Yami Ryu, I read your PM and wrote a response to it that included and apology and a truce offer, then found that you had disallowed PMs. Everyone else: I admit I was a bit sensitive about the age thing, but that's only because I am one of those rare kids who can do college math at age 10, and have had to deal with adults treating me like an idiot for most of my life. It just frustrates me to encounter it on the internet, the one place where I thought I could avoid it.

But that isn't the point of the topic, and I don't want to distract from it. Please, discuss what Chales proposed, for it deserves discussion.

 

[Jonouchi]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The only reason (or so I believe) newbies post fics like Chales' fics is because they want help on improving. Harsh reviews would be the equivalent of a slap in the face....A hard one.

So let me ask you. Do you want to give the author a hard slap in the face till he bleeds some sense? Is that how reviewers should act?

Regardless. If you just "Keep doing what you're doing," thing will probably end up...horrible. Try something new, something basic. Some in between description (meaning enough so people can get some sort of picture, like mine (Which currently are unavaliable to Serebii)), Grammar everyone could read, and a decent well-planned story. Just view some stories on here to get an idea of what's good and what's bad.

In closing, It couldn't hurt to improve and experiment with writing styles. Just see what you're good at in writing and focus on improving on the ones you're not good at.

 

[Chales]

i'm tired. Yami Ryu, accept the fact that you're still being close-minded about the whole description ordeal.

What defines 'too little description?' Why shouldn't stories be allowed to have a limited amount of description? Isn't that a style of its own? What if it's a style you couldn't understand?

I'm not having a dramaqueen act, nor am I making a whine thread (said by the one who rejected PMs, also rejecting any forms of communication in the first place, in which case you shouldn't have even posted). I simply wanted to know what serebiiforum's standards were. That was my main point. But no, instead you had to just pull up irrelevant issues and direct all the blame on me.

I KNOW not everyone is going to like what I write. I KNOW THIS. For example, there will always be people who don't seem to be fond of what YOU write. Such is the case with my fic.

but do I see any words like your own in your threads?

Please, stop acting as if you know every. single. thing about fanfiction. I admit I don't. I sure as hell know you don't. And what if birthdaypirate's opinion has some merit to them? he thinks it's good, you seem very intent on labeling it bad.

And by accusing me of being a dramaqueen + whining...well, I didn't directly insult you like this. By doing so, you violate this part of my introductory post:

.......and if you feel if you're going to bite back at me, please restrain yourself from posting. Arguing is no fun.

So yeah. I want answers. I don't want another debate and a pointless quarrel over my fic using it as another poorly developed example; I'm not looking for attention. Quite frankly, all I really wanted was a good, solid answer that would help me in this particular forum.

So far, all your posts have annoyed me and have only succeeded in aggravating me. So it would be in the thread owner's utter delight and grace if you'd just...stop posting. I want discussion. I don't want arguments. If you can, from now on, post at reasonable lengths, then that'd be wholly satisfactory with me.

If you'd like, feel free to continue this over PM. Oh, flame me all you want over there. After all, I'm totally, utterly helpless seeing as you reject all PMs.

 

[Negrek]

The problem, I think, is the way in which you worded your initial post--it seemed very accusatory and singling out those who reviewed your thread badly; when you post something in that way, you can really only expect to have people leaping in to defend themselves and accusing you of whining about your 'fic. If you had worded your post more neutrally, I think you would have been fine.

Buuuut, as for the questions posed in the post above:

What defines 'too little description?'

The author dictates how much description is necessary for the story, and (in the case of fanfiction) then receives feedback from the readers. Ultimately, it's the writer's decision as to how much description is necessary to get the 'fic's point across; however, if you're writing something that people are having a great deal of trouble comprehending, you have to think of whether you want to balance clarity against style. There's no need to cave to reviewers if you don't agree with them, though.

Why shouldn't stories be allowed to have a limited amount of description?

They are, they are. Sparse styles are fine, so long as they're used effectively.

Isn't that a style of its own?

Yup.

What if it's a style you couldn't understand?

That's where you have to look at your reviews critically--review your reviews, that is. If you think that someone simply isn't understanding the purpose of the style, then you just have to consider whether you feel that their misunderstanding is your fault or theirs. If it's yours, then perhaps you have some work to do; if it's theirs, then you can thank them for their review, perhaps calmly explain why you disagree, and do nothing.

Yeah, I know that was directed at Yami Ryu, but I had to do something to get this post remotely on-topic.

 

[Yami Ryu]

Lol. First someone is afraid of posting to be up to my standards, now I'm getting accused of being a know it all. >_> my non existent ego aint so non existent anymore.

*pops it*

There we go.

post at reasonable lengths

Neh?

Quite frankly, all I really wanted was a good, solid answer that would help me in this particular forum

We have given you answers. Flaaffy has, Negrek has, J. has, I have, we all have. You just need to read and stop being biased to me because I didn't like how you did your story :/ I am not hating/annoyed with you cause of it. I'm just tired of you not listening to your own words, and maybe taking into considering, my opinon could have merit also.

well, I didn't directly insult you like this. By doing so, you violate this part of my introductory post

:/ well seeing as you made this thread right after yours was closed. But fine. I won't mention it again.

For example, there will always be people who don't seem to be fond of what YOU write.

I know this, as I've only been getting reviews recently. But it's also cause most people are closet readers it seems.

i'm tired. Yami Ryu, accept the fact that you're still being close-minded about the whole description ordeal

Like they would use it as an excuse if 'oh not describing is a style!' lemme tell you something, not describing fics can be pulled off well. Hell, I enjoyed a Hellsing one that was only dialogue. But over the course of the two characters speaking, the person set up the scene, the characters, and everything. So by the end of the one shot, you were laughing and knew the setting.

That and the fact Flaaffy and Myuu can be considered 'skimping' if they didn't blend describing just enough into the mix, and some others. Now stop with this closed minded buisness. I never told you to describe the tajmahall or whatever it's called. Just add more feeling and depth and etc :/ not go overbored and describe every single blade of grass.

but do I see any words like your own in your threads?

Only from people that were noobs and wanted a flame war, which I don't. I just wanted to help :/

If you'd like, feel free to continue this over PM. Oh, flame me all you want over there. After all, I'm totally, utterly helpless seeing as you reject all PMs

Actually I got tired of noobs pming me and made it where only those on my buddy list can pm me. Not much different than MSN ;/ anyways I'm not flaming. Seriously, if I was flaming I would be ranting nonsense and getting warned by mods and told off by more than one user :/ and sorry but you're not worth being warned or getting a usernote for flaming. In PM or otherwise, thank you.

I simply wanted to know what serebiiforum's standards were. That was my main point. But no, instead you had to just pull up irrelevant issues and direct all the blame on me.

Actually if you read, you realise it is your fault cause you haven't read my posts in total, or my pm completely. You took in only what you wanted, and laughed at it, trying to see me as stupid. Don't patronize me, I know of people like you :/

So far, all your posts have annoyed me and have only succeeded in aggravating me.

Good we're on the same level then.

Now that it's all cleared up, lets get to the chase. I don't hate the 'simple' style when used correctly. I don't hate stories when written correctly. But when it breaks the rules, I'm sorry, no one is exempt from them. Not you, not me, not even a mod really :/

I don't mind the fics when they've been done well. Where they make you, gradually as they don't describe much at one point in time, but scattered about, see the scene that's been set. The characters. The emotions of the characters, the drama, the humor, make you laugh or cry.

It's not all black and white like you're trying to make it. When you don't have enough description, you go from being simple to bad in the eyes of most readers, young or old. Because a story is like a movie. It's not told by music and voices alone. But actions, motions, etc.

Does everyone, quoth, 'want to write their stories in the same overly-descriptive, backstory-ridden, self-indulgent abomination of a style that passes for the standard on these forums?'

Also that could be a start for a flame war, insulting alot of authors there :/

And, also, skimping?

Well skimping is when you don't describe the characters, the scene, the plot. Rushing also comes with skimping. I mean which would you rather watch, a movie originally an hour condensed down to 5 minutes of extreme fast forwarding, editing, and such? Or the full hour movie?

Anyways sense it seems my posts are flames, this shall be my last post. Wether it's read or not.

Oh and also, it's my right if I choose to have pm's disabled, like it's your right evidently, to call me a flamer and such for having different views which you don't want to accept.

 

[Zephyr Flare]

Just for the record ‘arling, it wasn’t me who closed it. It was already closed when checked the forums yesterday morning and had a reported thread from two people that would have gone to more than just myself.

Since whomever closed it hadn’t commented I thought I may as well, I cannot help but sense a slight “mightier than thou” attitude coming off your posts. Intentional? Probably not but for me personally, it comes off like that.


I was thinking last night while trying to sleep since you happily dodged the bulk of what I said, notably the core values:


Creativity – This is both in originality and keeping your readers interested.

Visualisation – This is primarily the description. Be in a children’s book or an adult fiction, without the correct level for the target audience it can look like you are either skimping or treating the reader like a moron. It’s a fine line balance so unless you have your target clearly set out you usually miss it by a mile.

Grammar, spelling and punctuation – Self-explanatory I hope. It is really to the degree it makes writing readable so not those God-awful blocks o text some people think is clever.

Target audience – Who are you writing for age wise? Is there a genre lover you’re after? Maybe somebody in a certain location or country? Most do this completely unintentionally and without realising it but if you don’t get it right it can come off at a major tangent.


Hopefully you should decide to read the whole thing sted of picking and choosing this time. Most that are closed on the most basic of quality standards (Length is generally not included for instant closure sept the ones that are like a few lines) completely disregard these for jumping out the window to see if arms can be flyable.

See? You can have simple writing but there is such thing as overkill. Insulting those of us who have a different style does not make you any better.

Seeing as I wasn’t the one who closed it and judging from the reports I’d guess it was your “aggressive” replies that did it but that’s just a guess.



Birthday Pirate, are you a moderator by any chance? You seem to decide yourself what should be open and what should be closed. Last time I checked you don’t have the ability to do so nor understand the outside members view rules we have to adhere to…

Oh wait, you’re not. My apologies for getting the idea that maybe you were from your post.


I will however leave it open a tad longer, partly as I’ve got some work to be getting on with. That and I want to ensure you actually read than pick up what words you can throw around at your choice.


Sandra

 

[Chales]

I kind of skipped yami's post and moved right on to negrek's and zephyr's post...it made more sense. Besides, tired of reading her posts saying the same things over again, and tired of myself saying the same things over and over again.

And yes, negrek, you're absolutely correct in pointing our my fault in my first post. I tried to make it neutral, but apparently I failed in doing so. And, interesting point how the author must dictate the amount of description. I thought so as well, but thought against the idea that I'd be so harshly reprimanded in the same, generic matter. Huh! Whatever.

Anyway, I have no more input on this. I'm simply going to excuse yami as a hypocritical, mean ole typical reviewer, conclude that life isn't fair, and I simply must tolerate with these kind of people. I'll also continue with my own style, and if it still bugs her, then ....oh well? Don't read it next time? Don't even review? Oh, better yet, ignore me. pleaseopleaseoplease. That'll make me so happy. I won't deny my disagreement for her, however; I still think you're unfairly judging my story based on your corrupted standards, but hey, who am I to blame someone who nearly says the same thing on every single 'bad' fic she comes across? Surely not me, one who apparently lacks the capability of describing.

Zephyr, if you were going to close this, you should've done so. birthdaypirate and you came across the same conclusion, anyway: this remains opened, so I doubt the topic of the opening/closure of a thread would be considered imposing as a moderator. (oh, btw, first post was supposed to be sarcastic; I requested that thread to be closed, due to the overkill of ...useless reviews, literally).

So, yeah. another closure due to request? it was fun while it lasted. kthx.

 

[Zephyr Flare]

Been mostly busy for the rest of the day so never got round to it, unlike what some wtfable few think none of us are here 24/7.

Down the ship goes, invaded and taken over by sea worthy pineapples.

Then their weight sank it, woe.


Sandra