On schadenfreude and offensive joke telling.

[snorlax512]

I don't think implicit bias counts as racism at all. Human beings have an innate ability to recognise patterns, so subconsciously everyone will associate who they meet base on their previous experience on similar people. This isn't just race, it's sex, age, height, appearance, voice, clothes etc...

I think people are only racist if it due to a conscious thing, not subconscious.

 

[bobjr]

Racism isn't an on/off switch, there's more levels where something can have racist undertones, while something else can be flat out racist.

 

[chess-z]

I don't think implicit bias counts as racism at all. Human beings have an innate ability to recognise patterns, so subconsciously everyone will associate who they meet base on their previous experience on similar people. This isn't just race, it's sex, age, height, appearance, voice, clothes etc...

I think people are only racist if it due to a conscious thing, not subconscious.

Thinking like that is dangerous, because acting on implicit racial biases is still racist. The only thing you gain by thinking like this is the moral high ground when someone calls you out for your racist behavior. "I don't think I'm racist, but I've said several racist things, stop calling me racist!"

 

[snorlax512]

Thinking like that is dangerous, because acting on implicit racial biases is still racist. The only thing you gain by thinking like this is the moral high ground when someone calls you out for your racist behavior. "I don't think I'm racist, but I've said several racist things, stop calling me racist!"

That's why I said only conscious acts of discrimination count as racism.

 

[chess-z]

But it's not? tbh sounds like instead of evaluating your own behaviors you just wanna insist that you arent racist.

 

[Genaller]

But it's not? tbh sounds like instead of evaluating your own behaviors you just wanna insist that you arent racist.

But aren't you also just trying to feel some kind of moral high ground by pointing out these implicit biases without actually giving a productive solution (and no trying to be aware of all of your biased subconscious intuitions is more likely to drive people crazy before it yields this supposed positive impact that you're implying). Look up Jordan Peterson's "Professor against political correctness" YouTube videos.

 

[bobjr]

But aren't you also just trying to feel some kind of moral high ground by pointing out these implicit biases without actually giving a productive solution (and no trying to be aware of all of your biased subconscious intuitions is more likely to drive people crazy before it yields this supposed positive impact that you're implying). Look up Jordan Peterson's "Professor against political correctness" YouTube videos.

The productive solution is just to admit it and accept it instead of hide behind a 'I don't see color/gender/whatever" veil. That's it. That's how progress is made, it's honestly stopped if anything but the people complaining that they aren't racist at all.

 

[chess-z]

But aren't you also just trying to feel some kind of moral high ground by pointing out these implicit biases without actually giving a productive solution (and no trying to be aware of all of your biased subconscious intuitions is more likely to drive people crazy before it yields this supposed positive impact that you're implying). Look up Jordan Peterson's "Professor against political correctness" YouTube videos.

Productive solution: "Wow that thought I just had might have been a tiny bit racist. I need to stop thinking like that."

Everyone likes to feel the moral high ground. Arguing that you aren't racist because you don't consciously think you are is also the moral high ground. This is a tu quo qe fallacy.

 

[snorlax512]

You do realise this is a result of our innate ability to recognise patterns subconsciously? So we should try to suppress all of that and not form impressions based on age, colour, sex, voice, appearance, posture etc... basically everything that's different from each other?

As long as you don't act on your subconscious you are not racist, and it is completely pointless to use implicit bias to label every single human being a racist.

Saying that I'm racist because of something I can't control is rather similar to what racism itself is like eh? Discriminating against someone for something they can't change.

 

[chess-z]

omg did you seriously just reverse racism me

Having implicit racial biases means that you are just a teeny tiny bit racist, and when you make decisions, your biases will inform those decisions. In order to not be racist you have to take steps to counteract your implicit racist biases. Telling yourself that you're colorblind or just aren't racist does not counteract your implicit biases. You're just denying that you have them.

 

[bobjr]

Thanks for proving my point. No one is saying you're racist, just that everyone has implicit biases. Now instead of discussing the finer points of that and how it relates to the topic, you have to bring it back to "GUYS I'M NOT RACIST"

 

[Genaller]

Productive solution: "Wow that thought I just had might have been a tiny bit racist. I need to stop thinking like that."

Everyone likes to feel the moral high ground. Arguing that you aren't racist because you don't consciously think you are is also the moral high ground. This is a tu quo qe fallacy.

So what do I do when I'm sincerely unaware of having any of these supposed implicit racial thoughts? From my perception I've never made any judgement call on anyone's character on the sole basis of a label they can't change (since I convinced myself that such judgments are irrational) yet you're telling me that I must have such biases by default because I'm human. You want to talk about fallacy? X is human, therefore X must have implicit racial biases is what you're arguing which in it of itself is prejudice against all human beings since you're automatically asserting that human X must have racial implicit biases without knowing human X's character.

Also FYI, that supposed solution you gave is incomplete. Understanding that your thought was biased isn't enough to get rid of the bias. You have to critically examine the experiences in your life that lead you to having that bias and realize that the unalterable label of a group of people was (most likely) not the cause for why you've had negative experiences with members of said group in the past and if possible try to understand the true cause(s) behind why those negative experiences occurred in the first place

 

[chess-z]

Clarification time: We all have implicit biases, which are informed and created by our experiences. Not all of them are racial, and they are for the most part subconcious. Not all implicit biases are bad.

What you should do is educate yourself (not that youre likely to tbh). You're pretty damn ignorant of how power structures play into all of this, and you quietly support hate speech, so educate yourself or stop wasting words.

 

[bobjr]

So what do I do when I'm sincerely unaware of having any of these supposed implicit racial thoughts? From my perception I've never made any judgement call on anyone's character on the sole basis of a label they can't change (since I convinced myself that such judgments are irrational) yet you're telling me that I must have such biases by default because I'm human. You want to talk about fallacy? X is human, therefore X must have implicit racial biases is what you're arguing which in it of itself is prejudice against all human beings since you're automatically asserting that human X must have racial implicit biases without knowing human X's character.

Also FYI, that supposed solution you gave is incomplete. Understanding that your thought was biased isn't enough to get rid of the bias. You have to critically examine the experiences in your life that lead you to having that bias and realize that the unalterable label of a group of people was (most likely) not the cause for why you've had negative experiences with members of said group in the past and if possible try to understand the true cause(s) behind why those negative experiences occurred in the first place

You'll never get rid of biases as long as there are different cultures, races, and religions. And while there are always outliers in a study, if everyone in the study shows bias it's pretty telling. If you want to find the one person without any bias to any group of people I'd love to see them, but know they are one exception to billions of rules.

 

[snorlax512]

Thanks for proving my point. No one is saying you're racist, just that everyone has implicit biases. Now instead of discussing the finer points of that and how it relates to the topic, you have to bring it back to "GUYS I'M NOT RACIST"

Well Chess-Z thinks I am, because I have implicit biases. That was literally the only point I'm trying to make.

 

[Genaller]

You'll never get rid of biases as long as there are different cultures, races, and religions. And while there are always outliers in a study, if everyone in the study shows bias it's pretty telling. If you want to find the one person without any bias to any group of people I'd love to see them, but know they are one exception to billions of rules.

Right and did anyone of those studies have a globally representative sample with a size atleast in the millions? If not, then you can't assert that ALL human beings have implicit biases with good statistical confidence. Well religion (and certain cultural beliefs) for me does not fall under the category of a label that cannot be altered. I respect a person's right to believe in a particular religion but I don't respect any religion that posits a supreme being or any other form of supernaturalism. I grew up as a theist but eventually with critical thinking I was able to understand that the notion of a divine entity is ludicrous so yup I would probably subconsciously have less respect for people who aren't able to break out of a religion (that entails supernaturalism) like I was (and I feel zero moral guilt for doing so). This would include the vast majority of humans on the planet, most of my family and most of my friends. For the record, I still understnd that religion is only 1 aspect of a person so that by itself wouldn't signifcantly sway how much I like/love/value someone. I have a pretty good conjecture as to why religion is so prevalent today despite being obsolete so atleast on the surface I'm able to rationally convince myself not to hold anyone's religious beliefs against them unless they perform harmful acts in the name of those beliefs. Not really sure if this constitutes a bias since I am giving a reason for why I potentially have less respect for a religious person.

EDIT: For chess-z: Clarification time: I only claimed that I don't have a bias towards people on the basis of a label that can't be altered; never once did I claim I don't have any implicit biases altogether. Please educate yourself in basic literacy before making claims that you can't give evidence for (the definition of bias) and trying to give others unconstructive advice. You have no idea of who I am and my life circumstances and yet you're labeling me as a hate speech supporter and as a dogmatic individual. Explain how doing such things makes you any better than a racist. I have never made claims about you as person; only those concerning your own claims.

 

[snorlax512]

Right and did anyone of those studies have a globally representative sample with a size atleast in the millions? If not, then you can't assert that ALL human beings have implicit biases with good statistical confidence. Well religion (and certain cultural beliefs) for me does not fall under the category of a label that cannot be altered. I respect a person's right to believe in a particular religion but I don't respect any religion that posits a supreme being or any other form of supernaturalism. I grew up as a theist but eventually with critical thinking I was able to understand that the notion of a divine entity is ludicrous so yup I would probably subconsciously have less respect for people who aren't able to break out of a religion (that entails supernaturalism) like I was (and I feel zero moral guilt for doing so). This would include the vast majority of humans on the planet, most of my family and most of my friends. For the record, I still understnd that religion is only 1 aspect of a person so that by itself wouldn't signifcantly sway how much I like/love/value someone. I have a pretty good conjecture as to why religion is so prevalent today despite being obsolete so atleast on the surface I'm able to rationally convince myself not to hold anyone's religious beliefs against them unless they perform harmful acts in the name of those beliefs. Not really sure if this constitutes a bias since I am giving a reason for why I potentially have less respect for a religious person.

I think implicit bias means looking at a guy who sits on the street with dirty clothes, terrible smell, bulging veins and thinking "this guy probably does heroin". Not necessarily a bad thing at times, and I don't think anyone is sexist/racist for doing that (as long as you don't act on your subconscious and treat him like the stereotype), but I believe everyone has implicit bias because we are programmed to recognise patterns subconsciously.

 

[Genaller]

I think implicit bias means looking at a guy who sits on the street with dirty clothes, terrible smell, bulging veins and thinking "this guy probably does heroin". Not necessarily a bad thing at times, and I don't think anyone is sexist/racist for doing that (as long as you don't act on your subconscious and treat him like the stereotype), but I believe everyone has implicit bias because we are programmed to recognise patterns subconsciously.

I completely agree that implicit biases are a part of what makes all of us human. My mind is just cognitively convinced at this point that it shouldn't associate an unalterable label with some negative (or even positive) attitude towards people with said unalterable labels. The word "unalterable" here is key. Maybe at a subconscious lvl it still does make these associations and I'm just not aware of it but then I can't really do anything about what I'm not aware of since this is then out of the realm of my perception. I atleast know that I'm not treating anyone differently because of these potential subconscious associations so I guess that's enough.

 

[bobjr]

How are you 100% sure though? It's not about what you think, it's about how you act and how others perceive it.

 

[Genaller]

How are you 100% sure though? It's not about what you think, it's about how you act and how others perceive it.

Precisely. By analyzing my actions it's apparent that I haven't treated anyone negatively solely on the basis of an unalterable label and no one I know of has perceived me as having such tendencies (or atleast no one has told me they have). Now that I think about it I would probably have subconscious positive biases. For example I would probably be more friendly than usual with a person if I knew they were from the Asian subcontinent (I'm from India) before learning of any other aspects of that person. I guess that would constitute a bias since I'm influencing my attitude on the basis of an unalterable label (what part of the world someone is from). I guess my brain is only convinced to not develop negative biases (concerning some unalterable label). On the other hand, I would not consider a given member of my kin more impressive in some endeavor than anyone else unless this individual has the appropriate merit. In this sense I am able to put my bias aside for the sake of rational judgement.