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Opinions about the Team Flare arc?

Leonhart

Imagineer
Jeal said:
Serena got nothing. It is an outrage that even TRio was able to defeat the scientists, and Serena was not even able to hurt the grunts's pokémon.
I didn't like nor understand why they neglected her as much as they did in that arc. Eureka and Citron both got to play relatively big roles alongside Satoshi in the finale, yet Serena was the odd man out for reasons that I don't quite understand. I would've loved to have seen her Tairenar beat one of the Flare-dan scientists and possibly evolve.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Uh what? Again, Palermo didn't even seek Serena out. She didn't go to Serena, she didn't try to talk to her. She literally just watched her. What are you even trying to say?
He's trying to say it's stupid that Palermo would single out the one Performer who failed.

Which, of course, was the point. Because that was part of Serena's character arc was that she was a girl who gave up at the littlest things and could stick with nothing, but finally chose her dream. The cutting of her hair and crying is her realizing she's at the starting point of her dream and won't give up. When Palermo sees that the girl who failed and embarrassed herself is still finding the strength to stand up and move forward, it reminds her of Aria, something she confirms during a later Showcase, and is something that convinces her that Serena has the disposition to become Kalos Queen.

She also tells Serena what she lacks to become this, and it's this lack that is addressed in the Flare arc where she gives to Mairin without getting a thing in return. She just...brings a smile to another person. Which becomes her final dream.
 
I talk about how Palermo was interested in her by literally nothing, just a fail in the scenario and a crying scene which is not precissely relevant in a performance.
You say literally nothing, but then you go to point out the interesting parts? I don't know about you, and this is where it's clear to me in how Palermo looked at it, was that Serena was making a significant, emotional change both in her appearance and person after her debacle at the performance. That is interesting, not only in the viewer's eye, but the Palermo's eye because it shows passion and a drive to change something so the same thing won't happen again.

It makes perfect writing sense, to me at least. You haven't coherently explained how it doesn't.
 

AznKei

Beware of the び jacks in DDR! X_X
I didn't like nor understand why they neglected her as much as they did in that arc. Eureka and Citron both got to play relatively big roles alongside Satoshi in the finale, yet Serena was the odd man out for reasons that I don't quite understand. I would've loved to have seen her Tairenar beat one of the Flare-dan scientists and possibly evolve.
I think the trend about Serena's battling capabilities started when she fought against casual Elle. At the beginning, it was more forgiving because Elle is a celebrity with a tight schedule so their battle were interrupted, but it got carried on when Serena battle against most opponents afterwards to the point that it is just painful to watch when she's against the Flare grunts.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
You say literally nothing, but then you go to point out the interesting parts? I don't know about you, and this is where it's clear to me in how Palermo looked at it, was that Serena was making a significant, emotional change both in her appearance and person after her debacle at the performance. That is interesting, not only in the viewer's eye, but the Palermo's eye because it shows passion and a drive to change something so the same thing won't happen again.

It makes perfect writing sense, to me at least. You haven't coherently explained how it doesn't.
Because this Serena's reaction is utterly exaggerated and not even that, she never showed something special to Palermo. This is the classic "the Main Character is Special even if I never know anything about it"
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Lol, and you've done exactly what I thought you would do. Spouting one-liners and complaining about my favoritism towards XY while being completely contradictory and incoherent in your responses. It's really quite hilarious.

Again, Clemont isn't the only character in the TF arc. If you want to complain about how much time Clemont got, have it at it, but understand that there are other characters in other positions all with conflicting interests. Clemont for his part literally got a bit in which Clembot, a pride and joy of his, something that he created and assigned to his gym, was destroyed in his effort to take down the tower that was affecting Zygarde. It's not only but the time that is given, but the significance of what is happening in that time frame also matters. And I think that was important.

See how I do this? I try to justify everything being said with what went on in the show.

Dude, first you said she did nothing and now you're saying she didn't do enough? How incoherent is this? You have to move goalposts to make a point. Stick to something.

I beg of you. Watch episode 41. I seriously don't think you're aware of what happened in the episode. Steven intercepts several TF members to allow for Manon, Serena, and Sycamore to get into the TF base. They were able to rescue Chespin and get further into the base where they find the huge Mega Stone. There, Chespin was absorbed.

...Do you need the show to spell everything out for you? I think it's pretty clear the power comes from the Bond Phenomenon. Scratch that, they literally do explain that it's a power only AG has, meaning that it's clear that its from the Bond Phenomenon.

You backtrack again! First you say that she knew what Lysandre was planning and now you're of the position that she knew Lysandre was going to kill millions of Pokemon and people because....he was manipulating Alain? Is this a serious discussion?

It's kind of hard to argue with somebody who makes statements like, " do you know read " lmao, but I'm trying really hard. You're aware that I never said that you said " she never appeared. " I Iooked through my post several times. It's concerning that you just make things up on the fly.

Lmao, so, let me get this straight, since parts of the showcases sometimes dealt with Pokepuffs and one time dealt with Rhyhorn, this is indicative of her goal? Will you go this far? It's not a thematic part, it's literally just a part of her showcase.

I haven't made a single lie. You've backtracked, changed the goalposts, complained about my favoritism, all the while saying absolutely nothing.

I've watched XY/XYZ several times. I rewatched XYZ for literally two weeks ago. You on the other hand, don't seem to be aware of the events that happen in the show.

Thankfully, I can defend any supposed flaws and be honest about the flaws that do actually exist since I'm aware of what actually happened in the anime.



It's so hard to take things like this seriously. Palermo wasn't " magically interested in a random girl, " she was watching Serena in the showcase itself and happened upon Serena cutting her hair.
Obvious that it was the Bond Phenomenon, genius. This isn't enough of a explanation. The question is what the Bond Phenomenon has to do with the Mega Evolution or Zygarde, why is Greninja able to see through it. Do you understand my point now?

If she knows that he lied to Alan, obviously she knows the truth! Are your reasoning skills that low? and I need the show to spell things out?

I said that Serena appeared less than May and Dawn in the first episodes( which is absolutely true, no matter how much you would like to deny) and then you answer me saying that she had some focus(less than May and Dawn) during the episodes. Really genius!? I didn't know!

Dude, I will break down to you since you are slow: I said that the writers didn't care enough about Serena's goal, and put things that Serena was already good at in the thematic part).

Writer 1: So, what will be the thematic part of the showcase for this episode?
Writer 2: how about something with Rhyhorns? Serena is good interacting with them.
Writer 1: good idea!

Lol man, they literally called it "thematic part"(at least in the subs I watched). Either way it doesn't matter what is called. It's irrelevant for the point. At this point you are looking things to fight over.

1 - You lied when you said Clemont got a lot of focus on the episode

2 - You lied when you said Serena had a significant role on rescuing Chespin. You said yourself that it was Steven who did all the work.

3 - You lied when you said that Alan captured Ash. He simply stood still.

Yeah, I am sure you watch XY all day everyday, it doesn't make you less biased nor does it makes you see the series's flaws.

Dude, you would not admit an XY flaw(other than something like Ash losing the league) if your life depended on it.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Obvious that it was the Bond Phenomenon, genius. This isn't enough of a explanation. The question is what the Bond Phenomenon has to do with the Mega Evolution or Zygarde, why is Greninja able to see through it. Do you understand my point now?

If she knows that he lied to Alan, obviously she knows the truth! Are your reasoning skills that low? and I need the show to spell things out?

I said that Serena appeared less than May and Dawn in the first episodes( which is absolutely true, no matter how much you would like to deny) and then you answer me saying that she had some focus(less than May and Dawn) during the episodes. Really genius!? I didn't know!

Dude, I will break down to you since you are slow: I said that the writers didn't care enough about Serena's goal, and put things that Serena was already good at in the thematic part).

Writer 1: So, what will be the thematic part of the showcase for this episode?
Writer 2: how about something with Rhyhorns? Serena is good interacting with them.
Writer 1: good idea!

Lol man, they literally called it "thematic part"(at least in the subs I watched). Either way it doesn't matter what is called. It's irrelevant for the point. At this point you are looking things to fight over.

1 - You lied when you said Clemont got a lot of focus on the episode

2 - You lied when you said Serena had a significant role on rescuing Chespin. You said yourself that it was Steven who did all the work.

3 - You lied when you said that Alan captured Ash. He simply stood still.

Yeah, I am sure you watch XY all day everyday, it doesn't make you less biased nor does it makes you see the series's flaws.

Dude, you would not admit an XY flaw(other than something like Ash losing the league) if your life depended on it.
Tbf...Ash losing the League is not a flaw AT ALL. The flaw is a combination of excessive overhyping and Ash-Greninja Focus only by made nothing relevant by Ash.
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Tbf...Ash losing the League is not a flaw AT ALL. The flaw is a combination of excessive overhyping and Ash-Greninja Focus only by made nothing relevant by Ash.
I personally consider it a flaw because the story seemed to be heading for it since the last episode of BW, as I explained in my thread. And also because of the clickbait title. Lying to fans is one of the worst things a writer can do.

But it's not a huge flaw, so it's ok.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I personally consider it a flaw because the story seemed to be heading for it since the last episode of BW, as I explained in my thread. And also because of the clickbait title. Lying to fans is one of the worst things a writer can do.

But it's not a huge flaw, so it's ok.
At that point writers loved clickbait titles like Ash and Serena's date/dance party. But yeah, I'm agree about they hyped so much the audience by literally nothing
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Well-Known Member
I wont agree that the 5 TF parter was the only good thing about the arc, for example i really liked the TRvsTF episode where Z2 is captured.
Lysandre's motivations are dumb i agree, the scene where he points to lumiose city being consumed by plants and claims this is a beautiful world was so riduculous lol, considering they changed TF so much they could have went with lysandre differently imo.
Dawn is what Serena failed to be :p

Anyhoo if I were to rate all the villain arcs:

Flare > Galactic > Giovanni/Meoletta Operation Tempest > Aether/Lusamine > Team Rocket arcs in Johto > Team Plasma > Magma/Aqua

Can't really include Team Skull since they didn't really get a traditional villain arc, just Guzma in the league.
Completely agree with your list, except id put team plasma over team rocket arcs in johto tbh
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I wont agree that the 5 TF parter was the only good thing about the arc, for example i really liked the TRvsTF episode where Z2 is captured.
Lysandre's motivations are dumb i agree, the scene where he points to lumiose city being consumed by plants and claims this is a beautiful world was so riduculous lol, considering they changed TF so much they could have went with lysandre differently imo.
Dawn is what Serena failed to be :p



Completely agree with your list, except id put team plasma over team rocket arcs in johto tbh
May is a better comparison tbh. Both May and Serena started their journeys as amateurs not knowing what they want to do.
But May had 2 advantages over Serena:

  1. AG is longer than XY by more than 50 episodes and with 2 regions instead of one.
  2. She doesn't need to waste episodes or Rivals in Amourshipping propaganda
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Well-Known Member
May is a better comparison tbh. Both May and Serena started their journeys as amateurs not knowing what they want to do.
But May had 2 advantages over Serena:

  1. AG is longer than XY by more than 50 episodes and with 2 regions instead of one.
  2. She doesn't need to waste episodes or Rivals in Amourshipping propaganda
Tbh i dont really care for May either, i really like her as a character but couldnt care less for her goals considering how contests werent good to me until DP. Serena i used to like as a character but she mellowed out later in the series and her development wasnt as i hoped, so now im just indifferent to her and hate some of her amourshipping fans
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Tbh i dont really care for May either, i really like her as a character but couldnt care less for her goals considering how contests werent good to me until DP. Serena i used to like as a character but she mellowed out later in the series and her development wasnt as i hoped, so now im just indifferent to her and hate some of her amourshipping fans
I find May a bit better as a Character because she used Ash as her mentor during AG and because she has better development in the sense of starting her journey with nothing, unlike Dawn, BUT also I find Dawn more enjoyable as a Character thanks to her interactions and personality.
 
Obvious that it was the Bond Phenomenon, genius. This isn't enough of a explanation. The question is what the Bond Phenomenon has to do with the Mega Evolution or Zygarde, why is Greninja able to see through it. Do you understand my point now?

If she knows that he lied to Alan, obviously she knows the truth! Are your reasoning skills that low? and I need the show to spell things out?

I said that Serena appeared less than May and Dawn in the first episodes( which is absolutely true, no matter how much you would like to deny) and then you answer me saying that she had some focus(less than May and Dawn) during the episodes. Really genius!? I didn't know!

Dude, I will break down to you since you are slow: I said that the writers didn't care enough about Serena's goal, and put things that Serena was already good at in the thematic part).

Writer 1: So, what will be the thematic part of the showcase for this episode?
Writer 2: how about something with Rhyhorns? Serena is good interacting with them.
Writer 1: good idea!

Lol man, they literally called it "thematic part"(at least in the subs I watched). Either way it doesn't matter what is called. It's irrelevant for the point. At this point you are looking things to fight over.

1 - You lied when you said Clemont got a lot of focus on the episode

2 - You lied when you said Serena had a significant role on rescuing Chespin. You said yourself that it was Steven who did all the work.

3 - You lied when you said that Alan captured Ash. He simply stood still.

Yeah, I am sure you watch XY all day everyday, it doesn't make you less biased nor does it makes you see the series's flaws.

Dude, you would not admit an XY flaw(other than something like Ash losing the league) if your life depended on it.
I see you seem to be becoming unhinged. That's alright.

As I already said, the show literally makes it clear that the Bond Phenomenon is what gives AG the power to see through the negative energy. What are you asking for? You quite literally said yourself it was the Bond Phenomenon, so I guess you answered your own question lol. It's connected to Zygarde because they need that power from AG to destroy the rest of the vines. Again, you aren't making much sense.

No, buddy, I said that she was aware he was manipulating Alain. Nothing about that means that she knew that Lysandre was going to kill millions.

Yes, I am denying it. Please prove it to me. Explain. I never ceded that she had less focus than Dawn and May. If you can't explain, it's a meaningless statement.

Dude, I will break down to you since you are slow: I said that the writers didn't care enough about Serena's goal, and put things that Serena was already good at in the thematic part).
This is literally incomprehensible.

What does the " thematic part " mean to you? It's clear that we may have a different definition here and I want to know exactly what those words mean to you.

When I think about something thematic, to me, it has something to do with a particular set of ideas and concepts relating to a person, place, event or thing.

Alright, let's go through these supposed lies!

1. Nope. I never lied. Here's what I said about Clemont

And they gave us an episode with Clemont, his battle with Xerosic wasn't the main focus. It was his connection with Clembot in full displayed.
Yes, they put plenty of focus on Clemont in that episode.
Clemont for his part literally got a bit in which Clembot, a pride and joy of his, something that he created and assigned to his gym, was destroyed in his effort to take down the tower that was affecting Zygarde. It's not only but the time that is given, but the significance of what is happening in that time frame also matters. And I think that was important.
Where's the lie again?

2. Nope lol. Once again, I literally told you, Serena was assigned to help Manon with Chespin. She calmed Manon down and promised that they would get Chespin back. When they landed, Steven helped with goons so Serena, Manon, and Sycamore could go into the base. Nowhere did I claim that Steven did all the work. If you want to claim what Serena did here was insignificant, that's fine.

3. ...Yes, Alain literally flung Ash's hand away and allowed for TF to capture him. Sure, I'm willing to cede the point that he didn't literally capture him, but he played a willingly role in the capture itself. But sure, I guess I'm somewhat wrong there?

Do you want me to go through your lies? What happened to, " in the opening Ash and Alain were fighting? " for one?

Oh no, I'm biased for sure. But that doesn't mean I'm not informed. One can be partisan and right. It's clear to me you're biased and incorrect, which is the bigger problem.

Why would I admit to nonexistent flaws from bad actors? If I think there's a valid flaw, as I've seen people make many times, I've always been perfectly willing to say that I don't value those flaws as much as someone else did or that the show is good despite that flaw, etc.
 
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Jeal

Well-Known Member
I see you seem to be becoming unhinged. That's alright.

As I already said, the show literally makes it clear that the Bond Phenomenon is what gives AG the power to see through the negative energy. What are you asking for? You quite literally said yourself it was the Bond Phenomenon, so I guess you answered your own question lol. It's connected to Zygarde because they need that power from AG to destroy the rest of the vines. Again, you aren't making much sense.

No, buddy, I said that she was aware he was manipulating Alain. Nothing about that means that she knew that Lysandre was going to kill millions.

Yes, I am denying it. Please prove it to me. Explain. I never ceded that she had less focus than Dawn and May. If you can't explain, it's a meaningless statement.



This is literally incomprehensible.

What does the " thematic part " mean to you? It's clear that we may have a different definition here and I want to know exactly what those words mean to you.

When I think about something thematic, to me, it has something to do with a particular set of ideas and concepts relating to a person, place, event or thing.

Alright, let's go through these supposed lies!

1. Nope. I never lied. Here's what I said about Clemont





Where's the lie again?

2. Nope lol. Once again, I literally told you, Serena was assigned to help Manon with Chespin. She calmed Manon down and promised that they would get Chespin back. When they landed, Steven helped with goons so Serena, Manon, and Sycamore could go into the base. Nowhere did I claim that Steven did all the work. If you want to claim what Serena did here was insignificant, that's fine.

3. ...Yes, Alain literally flung Ash's hand away and allowed for TF to capture him. Sure, I'm willing to cede the point that he didn't literally capture him, but he played a willingly role in the capture itself. But sure, I guess I'm somewhat wrong there?

Do you want me to go through your lies? What happened to, " in the opening Ash and Alain were fighting? " for one?

Oh no, I'm biased for sure. But that doesn't mean I'm not informed. One can be partisan and right. It's clear to me you're biased and incorrect, which is the bigger problem.

Why would I admit to nonexistent flaws from bad actors? If I think there's a valid flaw, as I've seen people make many times, I've always been perfectly willing to say that I don't value those flaws as much as someone else did or that the show is good despite that flaw, etc.
So, what are you saying "he can because the plot needed it" got it.

It doesn't matter what a fanboy accept or not. It's objective fact that she had less focus than May and Dawn in the first episodes. Any non-biased person can go check it.

Dawn had 6 episodes right from the start. May had one and appeared alongside Ash since episode 1. Serena had one and a little focus here and there when the focus shifted from Ash and the crew. If you will deny it, then the discussion has finally reached the point where you will ignore objective facts.

Man, go see the Shauna's explanation in episode 40 about the showcases and the "themathic phase", I don't have the time to explain things the anime already explained.

The lie is on you saying he got a lot of focus on this episode when it was 3 minutes.

You are biased and incorrect, like every fanboy.
 
So, what are you saying "he can because the plot needed it" got it.

It doesn't matter what a fanboy accept or not. It's objective fact that she had less focus than May and Dawn in the first episodes. Any non-biased person can go check it.

Dawn had 6 episodes right from the start. May had one and appeared alongside Ash since episode 1. Serena had one and a little focus here and there when the focus shifted from Ash and the crew. If you will deny it, then the discussion has finally reached the point where you will ignore objective facts.

Man, go see the Shauna's explanation in episode 40 about the showcases and the "themathic phase", I don't have the time to explain things the anime already explained.

The lie is on you saying he got a lot of focus on this episode when it was 3 minutes.

You are biased and incorrect, like every fanboy.
Uh yes? The narrative was what allowed for AG to use the power to sense the negative energy?

I'm sorry to tell ya buddy, objective facts have to be true in the show to be objective. As I said, you're going to have to explain how it's objective since that's a strong word. Ranting about how I'm biased and a fanboy sadly does not do you any favors.

This is what you originally said

I don't see how she and Dawn can be compared. Dawn was almost protagonist together with Ash. Serena was ignored for almost a year
The first episode of DP is completely focused on Dawn. Serena appears for a few seconds in the first 5 episodes. Dawn had 6 episodes focused on her in the first 10 episodes. Serena don't get one until XY021.
Dawn's first battle is the focus of an episode. Serena's is offscreen. Even looking at Serena's goal you see the writers didn't care enough to think on it. They simply mixed things Serena was good(bake poképuffs, interact with Rhyhorn) and ta-da! A goal for the protagonist.
Serena was the game protagonist, even so she didn't get the same level of focus as May and Dawn. As a fan of hers, I think this is outrageous.
You literally made an argument in which you said Serena appeared for a few seconds in the first few episodes and that Serena didn't get as much focus as Dawn and May.

Nowhere do you make it clear that you were just talking about the first few episodes. It's clear when you said that you didn't think she got enough focus on the level as May and Dawn, you were talking about the whole series, and not just the first few episodes.

That is literally what I am denying, as seen here

Yes, I am denying it. Please prove it to me. Explain. I never ceded that she had less focus than Dawn and May.
I skimmed through episode 40 and the Rhyhorn episode in XYZ and I couldn't find the " thematic phrase. " What I think this is referring to is the different events within the showcases, at least from what it looks like. I might be wrong, so if you could find the exact sentence, that would be great.

This is literally what you said referring to that:

Even looking at Serena's goal you see the writers didn't care enough to think on it. They simply mixed things Serena was good(bake poképuffs, interact with Rhyhorn) and ta-da! A goal for the protagonist.
So, do you deny that baking poképuffs and interacting with Rhyhorns were introduced as the thematic part on showcases? Will you go this far?
And yes, that wasn't really Serena's goal. I guess you can tenuous connect them since showcases are part of her goal and those were some of the events in the showcase? Maybe you're right, I'm incredibly slow....

...That isn't a lie. First off, it isn't even just 3 minutes, and secondly, I already explained the significance of the focus.

Nothing wrong with being biased. Fanboy though, bit too strong of a word.

There are so many things you've just brushed past and not addressed, so I guess you've ceded those points?
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Uh yes? The narrative was what allowed for AG to use the power to sense the negative energy?

I'm sorry to tell ya buddy, objective facts have to be true in the show to be objective. As I said, you're going to have to explain how it's objective since that's a strong word. Ranting about how I'm biased and a fanboy sadly does not do you any favors.

This is what you originally said



You literally made an argument in which you said Serena appeared for a few seconds in the first few episodes and that Serena didn't get as much focus as Dawn and May.

Nowhere do you make it clear that you were just talking about the first few episodes. It's clear when you said that you didn't think she got enough focus on the level as May and Dawn, you were talking about the whole series, and not just the first few episodes.

That is literally what I am denying, as seen here



I skimmed through episode 40 and the Rhyhorn episode in XYZ and I couldn't find the " thematic phrase. " What I think this is referring to is the different events within the showcases, at least from what it looks like. I might be wrong, so if you could find the exact sentence, that would be great.

This is literally what you said referring to that:





And yes, that wasn't really Serena's goal. I guess you can tenuous connect them since showcases are part of her goal and those were some of the events in the showcase? Maybe you're right, I'm incredibly slow....

...That isn't a lie. First off, it isn't even just 3 minutes, and secondly, I already explained the significance of the focus.

Nothing wrong with being biased. Fanboy though, bit too strong of a word.

There are so many things you've just brushed past and not addressed, so I guess you've ceded those points?
It's objective because you can check it yourself. Or will you say that the few moments of Serena's journey in the first episodes were bigger than
Dawn's entire episodes, and May alongside Ash from the very first episode sharing screentime with him?

I literally said first episodes, and you even acknowledges it on this very post...

Everything is wrong on being biased in a debate. Debates are about facts, not opinions.

No, I just didn't think it was worthy, it would be walking in circles.
 
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