Opinions; Action Scenes w/Legendaries

[Kiyohime]

The way I see things, Legendary-wise:

Don't screw around a lot with legendaries such as Mew, Lugia, Ho-oh, Celebi, and Jirachi. All those guys have near-godlike status what with the powers they have. They float around up there being, well, gods. XD

Kyogre and Groudon --as well as Rayquaza-- come just under the aforementioned, but are slightly limited thanks to Rayquaza and the orbs. They mostly sleep.

Then there's the Regis and the Lati twins, very powerful but keep to themseves. They simply guard, and so on.

And last on the Legendary pyramid, there's both trios of Birds and Beasts. They have contact with humans sometimes, the way I see it, but still keep to themselves because of their extreme power. But they roam around the land freely, so that makes them more suspectible.

May not make sense to anyone except me, but ah well. 8D If that helps, I'm glad.

 

[Zerodius]

Well... according to your explanations, your character is definitely a "Gary Stu/Mary Sue".

Unless the virus weakens the Legendary Beasts to the point where a common Scyther can fight all three of them at once, your character still comes off as a "Gary Stu/Mary Sue".

Reason? Well... human reflexes just can't keep up with Pokemon's... especially if the Pokemon have any kind of skills regarding combat.

In short, unless your character is some kind of uber "super human", it is impossible for your character to actually stand a chance.

In short: hopelessly flawed battle scene.
Suggestion: remove it.

Yes, this is harsh... but this is the Legendary Beasts we are talking about. Do you HONESTLY think that a mere common human could beat them up by swinging a little piece of junk metal around (especially considering that it is ONLY a piece of junk metal and isn't special in any way, form, or shape)? As said above, unless the virus makes the beasts both insane and worthlessly weak, the scene is flawed.

End of story.

 

[Kiyohime]

As much as I hate to admit it, Zerodius makes a good point. ><;; I know you write fantasy, so swords are a must, but think about it-- fire melts metal, ice freezes it and makes it shatter, and lighting can torch the human if channeled through the iron. It would be very difficult to win, so consider further additions to make it all integrate better. ^^

 

[Ouallada]

Syra, I would advise the removal of the scene as well. It does not matter what genre you are writing, a story or a story element cannot verge on absurdity, ever. Well, unfortunately, this is especially true for fantasy. Seeing that you love fantasy so much, I find it hard to believe that you fail to gasp that concept. Fantasy is broadly defined as the usage of imaginary elements within a story. The unwritten rule about fantasy is that imagination is rooted within reality, such that your environment and setting is not completely alien, but a mix of what we would expect to see, and what we want to see.

For example, we do not see humans with wings very often in fantasies, because they are simply not bound to reality. Critters with powers are often those which are NOT grounded in reality, ie not present in our world, and thus can be attributed with said powers. Once you lose track of that concept, and believe that the notion of fantasy can explain every bending of physics and reason, then you become a cross between a fantasy writer and a parody writer. That is the sad truth. I read through your one-shot, and while reasonably well-written, there are numerous plot-holes and logic problems like this one here. A desert is often very cold at night, sometimes with temperatures near freezing. To have a desert boil at night is possible, but to validate it by simply saying that you write fantasy and are thus entitled to such bending of rules is not acceptable, no matter what you may say. You must have a plausible plot or environmental explanation. For example, if Tolkien were to have a boiling desert in the Sil or Unfinished Tales, and attribute it in a detailed manner to Morgoth's power and intentional will, then we would have a reason. Your story has a person walking through a desert, and provides no such validation. Also, what you did completely destroyed the laws of physics, Deserts have such temperatures not only due to the ease of loss and gain of heat by sand, but also due to pressure and other environmental factors. If you negate that without a reason, you insult a discerning reader's perception. Same with what we have here. A warrior with a sword is not going to stand a chance against many Pokemon, least of all a Legendary. It does not matter what factors are in his favour, for the story loses in every way. If said factor in warrior's favour does not debilitate, paralyse or reduce the legendaries to whimpering hamsters in the blink of an eye, a simply bombardment of elemental power would spell the end of that fight. You ever read about how artillery works in real life, and how they blanket an area with mortars? Same here. If said factor in warrior's favour does render the legendaries incapable of doing much to the warrior, ie kill him with one move, then you might as well have the warrior battle a fearsome teddy bear. Both ways, story loses.

Oh, and yes, if warrior has somehow received a momentous boost of power and owns all of them, then I would say that you have a gary stu on your hands. Either way, story loses, and there is nothing much to be argued with.

 

[Kiyohime]

Or better yet-- compromise. No need to remove it...perhaps if Pokemon were used, the tables could be more even? Such as an army of Magneton surrounding the Suicune and connecting with each other's magnets to trap it in a sphere of Magnetons and severely damage it? Things like that could add plausibility.

 

[Ouallada]

If pokemon were used, it would be more possible, of course, but that depends on Syra. From his adamant usage of a mere sword and not other more powerful artifacts, I drew my conclusion that he wanted mano a mano. You then have to take into consideration the situation he wants. He wants a situation in which a warrior gets toyed with by three legendaries, who are keener on playing cat and mouse rather than killing him. Would that seem possible with the warrior aided by a large number of pokemon. Do not forget the golden rule of hunting-- you only carry on when it is fun; when it is not, you pack up and go home. Same as what the US did in the Vietnam War. Legendaries are not going to screw around if they feel their own safety was compromised.

 

[Ryano Ra]

Syra, I would advise the removal of the scene as well. It does not matter what genre you are writing, a story or a story element cannot verge on absurdity, ever. Well, unfortunately, this is especially true for fantasy. Seeing that you love fantasy so much, I find it hard to believe that you fail to gasp that concept. Fantasy is broadly defined as the usage of imaginary elements within a story. The unwritten rule about fantasy is that imagination is rooted within reality, such that your environment and setting is not completely alien, but a mix of what we would expect to see, and what we want to see.

For example, we do not see humans with wings very often in fantasies, because they are simply not bound to reality. Critters with powers are often those which are NOT grounded in reality, ie not present in our world, and thus can be attributed with said powers. Once you lose track of that concept, and believe that the notion of fantasy can explain every bending of physics and reason, then you become a cross between a fantasy writer and a parody writer. That is the sad truth. I read through your one-shot, and while reasonably well-written, there are numerous plot-holes and logic problems like this one here. A desert is often very cold at night, sometimes with temperatures near freezing. To have a desert boil at night is possible, but to validate it by simply saying that you write fantasy and are thus entitled to such bending of rules is not acceptable, no matter what you may say. You must have a plausible plot or environmental explanation. For example, if Tolkien were to have a boiling desert in the Sil or Unfinished Tales, and attribute it in a detailed manner to Morgoth's power and intentional will, then we would have a reason. Your story has a person walking through a desert, and provides no such validation. Also, what you did completely destroyed the laws of physics, Deserts have such temperatures not only due to the ease of loss and gain of heat by sand, but also due to pressure and other environmental factors. If you negate that without a reason, you insult a discerning reader's perception. Same with what we have here. A warrior with a sword is not going to stand a chance against many Pokemon, least of all a Legendary. It does not matter what factors are in his favour, for the story loses in every way. If said factor in warrior's favour does not debilitate, paralyse or reduce the legendaries to whimpering hamsters in the blink of an eye, a simply bombardment of elemental power would spell the end of that fight. You ever read about how artillery works in real life, and how they blanket an area with mortars? Same here. If said factor in warrior's favour does render the legendaries incapable of doing much to the warrior, ie kill him with one move, then you might as well have the warrior battle a fearsome teddy bear. Both ways, story loses.

Oh, and yes, if warrior has somehow received a momentous boost of power and owns all of them, then I would say that you have a gary stu on your hands. Either way, story loses, and there is nothing much to be argued with.

First off, don't ever tell me that my 'story loses' because it doesn't in my opinion. I've learned that not everybody will enjoy my writing, and I have to deal with it. So, say whatever you want. >> The desert becoming hot is more of a fantasy touch, and there is realistic measures inside of the story. >> But, I guess you know so much about literature, but please, don't respond to me AT ALL because you will start an argument if you do. Sad to say, I can be a bit stubborn at times (Taurus sign, what can you expect?), but please, the desert part is nothing more than a fantasy touch. If you want realistic measures and actual evidence of this happening, then I could thoroughly explain this to you, when I have available time. ^^

Zero, assure me, I don't make sue characters. It may sound that way, but I've been writing stories for a long time, and I'm pretty sure I know how to craft a character without making them seem so sueish and powerful. I have very, very different opinions about legendaries that people will seem to never understand; I chose Raikou, Entei, and Suicune because they are very powerful, sure, but they should be able to take blows. But, I guess I understand what you guys mean. --; I just wanted to try to have a battle with man against legendary, with flaws in warrior and the legendary, but I guess I'll just have another pokemon battle them. Although, I guess that a Pokemon wouldn't last so long, either. -.-

So, would it appropriate if a legendary is attacking unsuccessfully? For example, instead of the warrior fighting, he's dodging the attacks (leaping around, flipping back) while the legendary is trying to land lethal blows, destroying the city in the process? Would that be more acceptable? I mean, I understand not landing blows, but can the warrior at least dodge the attacks?

Also, I was, at first, considering to either use the man and his Gyarados, or a group of Mantine (not infected by the virus) being of great assistance. I'm only throwing ideas around so when I write the eleventh chapter, I'll know what to write and how to write it.

 

[Ouallada]

First off, don't ever tell me that my 'story loses' because it doesn't in my opinion. I've learned that not everybody will enjoy my writing, and I have to deal with it. So, say whatever you want. >> The desert becoming hot is more of a fantasy touch, and there is realistic measures inside of the story. >> But, I guess you know so much about literature, but please, don't respond to me AT ALL because you will start an argument if you do. Sad to say, I can be a bit stubborn at times (Taurus sign, what can you expect?), but please, the desert part is nothing more than a fantasy touch. If you want realistic measures and actual evidence of this happening, then I could thoroughly explain this to you, when I have available time. ^^

Hey champion, cool it. Along your train of thought, first off, do not tell me what I can or cannot say. Yes, it is your opinion, but surely you can find a better way to defend yourself by simply forcing me to keep silent, and imposing your opinion on this thread? If you peruse my post, you will quickly see that I did say it is possible in fantasy, but always with a legitimate reason. You do not bend a rule just because the genre is fantasy. Leave that to parody writers. Next time you see fish flying around in a novel without an explanation, do let me know.

So, would it appropriate if a legendary is attacking unsuccessfully? For example, instead of the warrior fighting, he's dodging the attacks (leaping around, flipping back) while the legendary is trying to land lethal blows, destroying the city in the process? Would that be more acceptable? I mean, I understand not landing blows, but can the warrior at least dodge the attacks?

It would be even worse. This, my friend, is NOT power rangers or godzilla, in which buildings crumble but there is no sign of any loss of life. You obviously failed to read my post or failed to understand it. I would forsee THREE legendaries attacking like a modern day military would utilise artillery. You try dodging radial attacks like that. Let me give you an example. Your three legendaries have attacks powerful enough to destroy a city. So what is going to happen is that either they carpet bomb your hero with attacks and finish him off at once, or you are trying to make your hero become superman. Anything which can level a city can kill a person easily, especially when you take the "area-of-effect" ramifications of those attacks.

I do not know, how would this relate to an argument? I have not said a single word in anger, and neither have I said anything which is unrelated to your work. It is constructive criticism, and if you feel that you cannot take such criticism, then feel free to let me know. Oh I am glad that you complimented my knowledge of literature, but that is not what I am using right now, but just pure common sense. Perhaps if you forget about your title of best fantasy writer, which I have seen you expound several times, and write as a normal person, and take criticism like you would expect a normal author to take from you (but then and again have not seen you reply to many fics besides those written by your friends and your own threads; we can forgive that, though), and apply the general standards of author acceptance, then you might improve a little more.

 

[Ryano Ra]

o.o Trust me, I know I'm not the best fantasy writer. I simply call myself a fantasy writer, not the best. I think that's because nobody has read many fantasy stories around here 'cept mine, which clearly makes them think that I'm the 'one and only'. Trust me, if I was so happy about being the best fantasy writer, I would want to participate in the awards to see if I can get it again. I want others to shine besides myself because I know I have a long way to go. A VERY LONG way. And as for the reviewing, I don't usually have time to read many stories (I read Reflect, Sin, Two of a Kind, Communcation, Trial of Juno, The Ninetales' Curse, Choice and Consequence, and others. They are my friends, but some, I read nevertheless.) so that's why you don't see many reviews from me. I review upon request, though, too many equals to none, if you catch my drift.

For the one-shot segment part of the post, sorry, though sometimes I fail to understand with your many usage of words and vocabulary. o.o I do have a legitimate reason as to the whole deal with the temperature and night, I just didn't feel as though I needed to explain that thoroughly in my thread. Simply saying it is possible in fantasy what was I was thinking, though I have reasons for it. Again, sorry.

For the topic part, the eleventh chapter only deals with SUICUNE. The last chapters has all three, but for now, Suicune is by herself. I think that I should have explained more about the Slinx Insanity Virus and what it actually does to Pokemon, though I really wanted to use them and have them battle. So, basically, I should use Pokemon instead of humans?

 

[Wandering Rhythmical Phoenix]

In Ties bound by Battle The legendaries are gods. 'They stay in 'The Untouchable Side' untill called upon by there 'Summoners'. Maybe I'm reveling too much. More or less the 'Untouchable Side' is a plane that humans should be unable to touch, yet curcumstances allow them to touch it long enough to pull a god from that side' (From Yuuki's explanition in CH6)

 

[Ouallada]

For the one-shot segment part of the post, sorry, though sometimes I fail to understand with your many usage of words and vocabulary. o.o I do have a legitimate reason as to the whole deal with the temperature and night, I just didn't feel as though I needed to explain that thoroughly in my thread. Simply saying it is possible in fantasy what was I was thinking, though I have reasons for it. Again, sorry.

Relax, mate. Firstly, there is no need to apologise, when both of us are merely sounding off on opinions. I just wanted to point out that in fantasy, there should always be a reason, an order amongst chaos, if you will, and that is supposed to be woven into the story in a way that the reader does not notice such actions when they are present, while immediately feeling their absence when these actions are not taken. Again, it does not matter whether it is you or me, as everyone has something to improve on, and it is important to actually listen at times. Sometimes, I do think we learn more through listening than speaking.

As far as your battle goes, I would say adding pokemon does make it a tad more realistic, but I do not want to restrict your writing. write the way you want, and let us decide if you validate your own point.

 

[Ryano Ra]

Oh yes, I would want to write how I would of the legendaries, but seeing as I've never written anything about them, it is an entirely different story.

I was thinking about just using the Pokemon instead, since they put up more of a challenge against legendaries, especially the beasts. I can also, especially, write Pokemon action better than a human fighting a legendary, and with the clan of Mantine and single Gyarados attempting to stop the maddened Suicune, that adds more realism. Thank you all for the comments, it has certainly helped me.

 

[Elemental Charizam]

If he's just a normal human, it does seem rather implausible, but it depends how strong you make the legendaries. If you take from canon, legendaries are much weaker (at least the beasts) than most think. Example; Entei is almost bested by Ash's Charizard. Admittedly, Charizard is supposed to be very strong, though not the strongest evah or anything. And human/pokemon wars are feasible even with swords; when humans and pokemon clashed in the anime, they were both dead. Until Ho-oh ressurected them, that is. So a very well trained human with good (but not neccaserily magic) equipment wouldn't be at any more of a disadvantage than say Greek heroes when they faced Dragons and hordes of undead warriors. Another example is how one of the Twin Towers in Johto burns to the ground,killing the legandaries. Now, if they can be killed by a burning tower falling on top of them (they might have been sleeping, but still) then they aren't that godly powerful in the eyes of cannon.

By my own classing system, a Legendary Beast Bird, or Regi would be a Guardian Legendary; that is, they're associated with a specific area and mainly fufill their roles there. Not exceptionally powerful, like area specific legends (there is a reason for this, BTW).

There, I used logic in a argument. Scary.

 

[Ouallada]

Well, Charizard hammered an Articuno as well, and it drew a lot of flak for lack of realism. Also, the anime standards are not applicable here. In the anime, Ash gets blackened by a flamethrower. In Syra's fic, I believe that a human is not supposed to get merely balckened as a result of a flamethrower. Using logic and reality, survival of a human is simply not possible, unless you are going to apply some crazy LOTR logic.

I would say that the best way is to use a pokemon, or a group, which would allow realism, draw fire away from the human, but without hurting the legendaries so badly they simply go for the kill.

 

[Ryano Ra]

Very bold statement, EC. I was also thinking about the Anime as well when writing up this topic.

I just simply thought about using Pokemon (Gyarados and a group of Mantine) against the legendary, when actually, the legendary wants to stir chaos around and in the process, is ridding the land of people (humans). I think that is more of a realistic measure while still holding some sort of mystery to it.

 

[Elemental Charizam]

Well, canon is the base of pokemon. If you stick to it you need no justifications; it's only deviations that need explaining. They set the standard of strength; however strong they say legendaries are is the base, standard strength of that legendary. Is it realistic a pokemon is only charred by a flamethrower? Not really; so it might just be a cartoon thing and we overestimate pokemon strength. Or maybe humans have adpated to resist the elemental powers of pokemon?

You can't say the makers got their own strength wrong; there is no inconsistency seen in individual legendary strength, so why quibble? Sure, you could represent them as more powerful, but you are the one who'd need to justify that, not the other way around.

 

[Ouallada]

Is it realistic that a pokemon is only charred by a flamethrower? Why not? Indeed, evolution plays a part in everything. These creatures obviously live to battle, and thus it is not inexplicable to reason that they have certain attributes that afford them better protection than a human's skin.

So, if the strength of legendaries is set in stone, why then are so many people debating about this, not just here but in other threads elsewhere on this forum as well? The fact is that what we have is a rough hierarchy, and nothing else. The notion of power is never fully explained in the anime, and with good reason. When you yourelf question and explain your own reasoning as to what a rough gauge of a legendary's power would be, I would guess that you should understand the futility. You use Ash's Charizard to gauge how strong an Entei would be, and various pokemon myths to validate Johto's Pokemon legends. Are any of those solid representations? If I were to say that I would not be able to beat Heracles in a wrestling match, would that put me on the same relative power base as Cerberus or one of the many critters he bests? Going by your definition, which can be extrapolated into rock-paper-scissors logic, would Haunter be stronger than Pikachu because it beat an opponent that Pikachu got hammered by, a Kadabra? What we have is only a rough hierarchy, and until something is set in stone, nothing more can be said.

Sure, you could represent them as more powerful, but you are the one who'd need to justify that, not the other way around.

Back to my point. How do you define "more powerful" when you do not know what to set as your benchmark for power? It is not like current, for which we have the Ampere, and so on. When facts fail, logic prevails, and logic tells me that if you were to use the anime solely for justification, you would have sadly missed the point.

 

[Elemental Charizam]

Well, if you could give Heracles a good competition in a wrestling match, then it'd be fair to say you're probably somewhere on the level of Cerebruus ect, assuming both of you fought fairly directly. As Charizard and Entei are both fire types, then I think it is basically a matter of power; how physically strong they are and how well they can fight. For this purpose, that's my definition of Power.

Haunter WAS ore powerful than Pikachu; it bested it easily. Though we could attribute this to the fact Pikachu knows nothing about Haunters, those are the only sort of parts I can really see that you can debate here.

Or simply by your own argument, there aren't really any pre-set strengths, so you can decide on what you want within reason. So Syra could set the legendary strength to what he wants. Its only the Slinx insanity virus that drives them to this anyway, so that nulls out the 'How would they survive without being really powerful?' question (answer, they are normally elusive). The speed of the beasts implies that flightis their first choice anyway. Perhaps because they can't stand against masses of human troops? That has logic too.

There, the anime is no longer my sole justification.

 

[Ouallada]

Well, let me change my words a little. Let us say that I was absolutely obliterated by Heracles. Let us also safely say that the world's strongest man was also annihilated by Heracles, both beaten in the blink of an eye. The hierarchy of power is thus thrown off balance.

Sabrina's Kadabra pwned Pikachu, but lost convincingly to Haunter. You willing to say that Pikachu would get trounced even worse by Haunter?

Or simply by your own argument, there aren't really any pre-set strengths, so you can decide on what you want within reason. So Syra could set the legendary strength to what he wants. Its only the Slinx insanity virus that drives them to this anyway, so that nulls out the 'How would they survive without being really powerful?' question (answer, they are normally elusive). The speed of the beasts implies that flightis their first choice anyway. Perhaps because they can't stand against masses of human troops? That has logic too.

Out of context right there. My argument is that there are no power levels that can be defined, as you would have us belive from your previous post, while the only thing we have is a hierarchy of power. Your point is that you defined power levels using comparison from the anime, and I argued against that point, because it is not possible to define. A lack of boundaries in writing does not always mean that a writer takes liberties, and I am sure that when you read through your post about Syra defining power levels on his own, you will find that it is equivalent to telling him that personal definition, without regard to logic, is fine.

Before you lose track of the issue and merely attempt to counter my points, notice that I have been steering you back on track. your first arguments were about pokemon nearly besting legendaries, and a couple of anime myths about legendary deaths. My arguments were against those points, while your subsequent reply was a rebuttal of my points, without referencing the motion at hand. Let us not have this go OOP.

 

[Kiyohime]

*tilts head* Kadabra? Wow, I thought it was Abra. o.o I keep mixing up the manga with the anime. XD

Let's not have this go out of hand. People have conflicting opinions about differences between the legendaries in the game, the anime, and the manga.

There's a good example in the Regirocks-- in the anime and the game, they're only slightly taller than the average human, but in the manga, all three are VAST, about the size of skyscrapers.

In Pokemon 2: The Movie, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres were raising MAJOR hell, and managed to almost down Lugia, yet separately they're about the same as normal trained Pokemon, if the episodes with Charizard show anything. Same with how the Beasts had that energy field in the manga.

It's differences like that that allows space for writers to bend the canon, if one doesn't watch the anime and reads tha manga, or plays only the games, and so on.