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ORAS has better graphics on the 3DS

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Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.
Yes. This was my issue with doing a direct translation of DP, which was mostly simple abstraction. Felt the same way about Let's Go's Kanto. ORAS was chibi, but also made an effort to modernize the world map for 3D. As an example.

Mossdeep_City_Space_Center_RS.png
Orasw1164.png

Yes they pulled it off much better, the models in BDSP cutscenes (not battles) are literally like Funko Pop figurines. It's just jarring to look at.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Sorry, I should’ve phrased my post better. What I meant was that none of the Pokémon introduced in SwSh have appeared in any other mainline GEN 8 Pokémon game. Neither BDSP or LA include any Pokémon from SwSh & don’t have the Dynamax mechanic (introduced in this generation). SV is gen 9, the next generation of Pokémon games & therefore pertains to my point that gen 8 introduced new Pokémon & mechanics then did nothing with them for the rest of its lifetime. That is what worries me, especially when coupled with the fact that they’ve stated that no Pokémon games going forward will include all Pokémon…

Unfortunately they've already established that they don't want the burst mechanics to stick around, they're generational at best. Mega Evolution was really only used in Gen 6, where XY and ORAS were the only games that got new Megas. They appeared in Gen 7, but they were an afterthought then and they seemed to only include it because they felt they were obligated to at the time, whereas in Gen 8 they decided that they no longer had such sense of obligation and axed them completely. Z-Moves were only a Gen 7 mechanic, and an Alola mechanic at that because SM and USUM were the only games that had Z-Moves altogether. Then in Gen 8, both Megas and Z-Moves were cut, establishing a new precedent that burst mechanics are NOT here to stay, they're just replacing them with a new one in the next gen. So it's pretty safe to say that Dynamax will be Galar only, do not expect Dynamax to be in SV, they'll probably come up with some new gimmick that's similar to Megas, Z-Moves, and Dynamax.

All of the remakes have their own pros and cons. FRLG had the horrible Roar Entei/Raikou glitch, HGSS’s Voltorb Flip is passable at best for the removal of the slot machines and original Game Corner but rather infuriating when you finally get to a high level and make a mistake and get dropped two levels as a result, and ORAS still had the issue where navigating the currents on the one Route makes it impossible to tell which way you’ll go.

Again, these seem like nitpicky flaws. In the grand scheme of things, a glitch related to 1 Pokemon, a mini game that has little to do with the core catching/training/battling mechanics, and one gimmicky route don't really mean much. If you're going to make the claim that every game has its flaws, you can do better than that. Like, here's a list of more significant things I would consider to be flaws in each remake (warning, multiple rants incoming):

  • Minimal enhancements to... well anything in the main game. They tweaked the mechanics to incorporate battling mechanics such as the addition of Dark and Steel type moves and held items and a bunch of other minor tweaks throughout the game, but that's about it
    • Kanto Dex is completely identical to the originals and retains the same flaws. Horrible type balance. The rarer types in the game such as Ghost and Dragon only have a handful of members (and those types themselves only have 1 family!). Dark and Steel which were introduced after the originals are practically nonexistent, with only the Magnemite line which was retyped being available. Several Elite 4 rosters featuring these rarer types, most notably Agatha and Lance, were forced to rely on duplicate families and Pokemon not of their type specialties to pad out their rosters. Game pretends as if cross gen evolutions introduced in GS do not exist until the National Dex is acquired post game, and Espeon and Umbreon are not in the game altogether due to no clock system existing in the game.
    • Region and area design is a virtual copy/paste job from the originals despite significant strides in map designs made in Gen 3 with the GBA. Mountainous routes such as Rt. 3, Rt. 4, Rt. 9, and Rt. 10 are flat as a pancake and rely on ledges for "elevation" instead of the isometric cliffs with visible elevation differences and bridges criss-crossing the area that you see in RSE's mountainous areas like the areas surrounding Mt. Chimney or Rt. 119. Several routes in this game are also exceedingly short, such as Rt. 7, Rt. 16, and Rt. 18. In general they just adhere to the limitations of the GB in the region design instead of implementing improvements that the GBA offered, only implementing such improvements in the new areas of the game.
    • Plot and characterization is bare minimum in this game. No sense of an overarching plot in the game. Antagonists don't really have a coherent motive or plan, they just start random skirmishes in various areas of the game. No sense of motivation or characterization from any prominent NPC characters such as rivals, gym leaders, or evil team members, they're basically glorified punching bags that say "Hey, you're a trainer! Let's battle!" and nothing else of significance.
  • Sidequests in the game have minimal depth and gameplay variety. Nothing on the scale of Contests/Secret Bases from RSE that feels like an entire secondary goal that you could work towards, just a battle facility and some random minigames.
  • As with the main game, post game "plot" is very minimal and with little characterization. We see vague hints of the Rocket Executives that we now know of as Ariana and Archer (but were not yet named in this game) attempting to rebuild Team Rocket leading to the events of GSC, but that's about it.

  • Johto Dex is almost completely identical to the originals and retains the same flaws. Horrible type balance. The rarer types in the game such as Ghost and Dragon only have a handful of members. Several gym leader rosters featuring these rarer types, most notably Morty and Clair, were forced to rely on duplicate families and Pokemon not of their type specialties to pad out their rosters. Move-based cross gen evolutions introduced in DP are added, but other than that are ignored, with all held item based cross gen evolutions having their items withheld until Kanto and location based cross gen evolutions unavailable in the game entirely!
  • Johto Pokemon are still exceedingly rare (and they're not strong enough to warrant being so) and are not prominent in the rosters of major NPCs such as rivals and gym leaders (I was so excited when Serebii mistakenly reported that Falkner had a Hoothoot instead of a Pidgey during his initial coverage of HGSS and then instantly crushed when it was found to be a mistake). Some are even flat out unobtainable until Kanto (the Safari Zone did help with this somewhat, but not completely), virtually defeating the purpose of them being in the Johto Dex to begin with!
  • While the level pacing wasn't entirely fixable due to the two region system of the game, some tweaks could be made to improve it such as bumping up the levels of the Kanto gym leaders and they failed to do so. They even made the difficulty spike between Blue and Red even larger by bumping Red's levels up!
  • Region and area design is a virtual copy/paste job from the originals despite significant strides in map designs made in Gen 3 with the GBA. Mountainous routes such as Rt. 45/46 are flat as a pancake and rely on ledges for "elevation" instead of the isometric cliffs with visible elevation differences and bridges criss-crossing the area that you see in RSE or DPPt's mountainous areas like the areas surrounding Mt. Chimney, Rt. 119, or the areas surrounding Mt. Coronet. Exceptions are made for new areas added to/redesigned in the game such as Rt. 47/48, the redesign of Mt. Silver, and the various Rock Climb segments added throughout the game. In general they just adhere to the limitations of the GB in the region design instead of implementing improvements that the DS offered, only implementing such improvements in the new areas of the game.
  • Plot and characterization is bare minimum in this game. No sense of an overarching plot in the game. Antagonists have little in the way of coherent motives or plans, they just start random skirmishes in various areas of the game (there is a bit of correlation between the Lake of Rage incident and the Radio Tower Takeover, but that's about it). No sense of motivation or characterization from any prominent NPC characters such as rivals, gym leaders, or evil team members, they're basically glorified punching bags that say "Hey, you're a trainer! Let's battle!" and nothing else of significance.
  • While significant strides were made to add more content to Kanto, it is still fairly barren, is lacking some areas that exist in RBYFRLG, and there is minimal plot here.
    • The plot is still limited to the Rocket Grunt stealing the Machine Part to the Power Plant
    • Mt. Moon is still significantly reduced from RBYFRLG, being a short linear passageway with a detour to Mt. Moon Square instead of the sprawling, mazelike cavern it once was.
    • The Rt. 7-8 Underground Path is still closed despite the Rt. 5-6 Underground Path opening after the Power Plant is restored (am I the only one who thinks it's weird that they only let you explore one of them in this game? It feels like we should've had both or neither)
    • Silph Co. is still mainly closed, reducing it from a sprawling office complex to a skyscraper that's basically all of one floor. They did add, oh look, 1 floor that's a small room for Rotom's form change! Such a significant and impactful addition to a nerfed office that once served as a sprawling and mazelike dungeon in RBYFRLG!
    • Rocket Hideout is once again closed. Not sure it would've served much purpose and we kind of have a substitute with the Mahogany Rocket Hideout, but still.
    • The Lavender Radio Tower that was formerly Pokemon Tower is once again closed down and the House of Memories that serves as a substitute for the latter continues to be unexplorable (despite NPCs indicating that there IS more to the House of Memories that would make it a worthy replacement for Pokemon Tower).
    • Cinnabar Island is again rendered an empty island with a Pokemon Center due to the volcano erupting. The Rock Climb segments around the volcano are nice, but this would've been a prime opportunity to add some environmental variety to the game and make the volcano actually explorable instead of a tiny, unexplorable mound. We had several volcanic areas in the series up to this point such as Mt. Chimney (and the surrounding Fiery Path and Emerald Magma Hideout) and Stark Mountain, so they could've turned Cinnabar Island into something similar (and that would've made a MUCH better home for Moltres than some random room in Mt. Silver) but nope.
    • RIP Rt. 23, Palkia inexplicably Spacial Rended it out of existence in between RBYFRLG and GSCHGSS and no one seems to notice or care.
    • Victory Road is still empty. Now I do like what they did with Victory Road in this game making it a maze of pitfalls, that was really cool, but the trainers are still gone. I don't see why they couldn't have just added some throughout the dungeon (and no, I don't buy that "Rt. 26/27 is the REAL Victory Road" excuse, it's not named as such and isn't the grueling cave/dungeon path that typically defines it, it just feels like a regular old route that happens to take you to Indigo Plateau).

  • Hoenn Dex is almost completely identical to the originals and retains the same flaws. Horrible type balance. The rarer types in the game such as Ice, Ghost, and Dragon only have a handful of members. Several Elite 4 rosters featuring these rarer types, most notably Phoebe, Glacia, and Drake, were forced to rely on duplicate families and Pokemon not of their type specialties to pad out their rosters. Cross gen evolutions are added, but they feel like such a paltry addition that barely moves the needle when third versions at this time such as Platinum and BW2 were starting to add much more significant chunks of Pokemon to their regional dexes to fix these kinds of issues.
  • Region and area design is a virtual copy/paste job from the originals despite significant strides in map designs made in Gen 6 with the 3D graphics and map design of the 3DS. Players can move around in the game grid free, but the map designs are all blocky and rigid like someone's LEGO set.
  • Minimal new areas to expand on Hoenn in the same way that the Sevii Island did for FRLG or the Safari Zone path or returning Kanto areas did for HGSS. Instead they opted for the Mirage Spots which were tiny areas that took all of 30 seconds to explore (the only reason to spend any more time than that is if you want to catch the Pokemon that were there).
  • Complete and utter lack of any Emerald content (there were some Easter Egg references to the Emerald content, but the features themselves were not added making this more trolling on Game Freak's part than a pleasant callback), making the game feel like 1 step forward and 1 step back from the definitive version of the original.
    • Plot ignores almost all Emerald plot elements, omitting Rayquaza's intervention between Groudon and Kyogre which is a crucial part of Hoenn's lore and Magma and Aqua realistically both being major environmental threats that took place in different events that actually sensibly related to their goals (i.e. it doesn't make much sense for the sea loving evil team to be in a volcano or the land loving evil team to be diving into the ocean. Or for the land based legendary to be under the ocean in the first place).
    • No Battle Frontier, leaving the game devoid of varied battling facilities and instead just the Battle Chateau and food courts which were mainly generic battles. We also lost the exploration and Pokemon availability of Sudowoodo, Artisan Cave, and Smeargle being cut.
    • Other areas such as the Safari Zone expansion, Mirage Tower, Desert Underpass, and Terra/Marine Cave were outright cut instead of being repurposed in ways that would make them more worthwhile to visit.
    • Match Call enhancements to the Pokenav were also cut, rendering us unable to rematch gym leaders as the Match Call allowed us to do in Emerald.

  • Minimal enhancements to... well anything in the game. They basically pretend as if anything that didn't exist in Gen 1 never existed at all aside from the new types and the physical/special split.
    • Kanto Dex is completely identical to the originals and retains the same flaws. Horrible type balance. The rarer types in the game such as Ghost and Dragon only have a handful of members. Alolan forms were added to help with the type balance, but it's still not enough. Several Elite 4 rosters featuring these rarer types, most notably Agatha and Lance, were forced to rely on duplicate families and Pokemon not of their type specialties to pad out their rosters.
    • Region and area design is a virtual copy/paste job from the originals despite significant strides in map designs made with newer hardware such as the GBA, 3DS, and Switch. Mountainous routes such as Rt. 3, Rt. 4, Rt. 9, and Rt. 10 are flat as a pancake and rely on ledges for "elevation" instead of the isometric cliffs with visible elevation differences and bridges criss-crossing the area that you see in numerous other regions' mountainous areas. Several routes in this game are also exceedingly short, such as Rt. 7, Rt. 16, and Rt. 18. Additionally, the design is grid based despite being 3D. Players can move around in the game grid free, but the map designs are all blocky and rigid like someone's LEGO set. In general they just adhere to the limitations of the GB in the region design instead of implementing improvements that newer hardware such as the GBA, 3DS, or Switch offered.
  • Only major change from RBY is the replacement of traditional catching mechanics with Go's capture system which is something no one asked for.
  • No Sevii Islands and minimal post game content whatsoever, with only Cerulean Cave and Master Trainers opening up in post game.

  • Minimal enhancements to... well anything over the original DP, ignoring both Platinum's improvements and improvements that have come from later generations.
    • Sinnoh Dex is completely identical to the originals and retains the same flaws. Horrible type balance. The rarer types in the game such as Fire, Electric, and Ice only have a handful of members. Several gym leader and Elite 4 rosters featuring these rarer types, most notably Flint, Candice, and Volkner, were forced to rely on duplicate families and Pokemon not of their type specialties to pad out their rosters.
      • Platinum Dex expansions were unceremoniously dumped into Hideaways instead of being fully integrated into the game and put on trainer rosters. Intentionally regressed the trainer rosters despite Platinum having fixed them.
      • Even the Platinum Dex is still slightly lacking though, and really could've used yet another expansion to add a few more Fire and Dragon types for monotype players that wanted a full team of those Pokemon.
      • No Pokemon outside of Gen 4's National Dex are in the game at all. Not even cross gen evos like Sylveon and Mr. Rime. Follows LGPE's "pretend like nothing introduced after this game exists" playbook.
    • Region and area design is a virtual copy/paste job from the originals despite significant strides in map designs made in Gen 6 with the 3D graphics and map design of the 3DS. Players can move around in the game grid free, but the map designs are all blocky and rigid like someone's LEGO set. Graphical style is also an intentional remastering of the chibi look of the originals, making it look far inferior to other Switch Pokemon games such as SwSh, LA, and the upcoming SV.
    • Platinum's plot elements such as Giratina's involvement and the Distortion World and additional characters such as Charon and Looker are completely absent
    • No Battle Frontier, leaving the game devoid of varied battling facilities and instead just the Battle Tower which is just generic battles.
  • Secret Base functionality has been severely nerfed in this game, limiting decorations to just random statues and removing the Capture the Flag minigame.

Really I could just tl;dr this by saying ALL remakes are way too faithful to the originals and retain many of the same flaws as the original games'. Game Freak doesn't have the guts to rethink things they did in the originals and see if they make sense for a modern day take on that experience and instead do basically glorified copy/paste jobs. Terrible variety due to National Dexes that were much more limited than the current one, refusal to update design conventions afforded to them by stronger hardware, and insistence on ignoring improvements made on more definitive versions of the game (although HGSS is an exception to this, but Crystal also did far less to expand on GS than the likes of Emerald and Platinum did for their respective initial pairs, so there's much less for them to miss) are all constant themes here. They describe BDSP as being "faithful remakes" and they are more faithful than a lot of past remakes, but we've gotten virtually nothing BUT faithful remakes and I'm sick of it. Thankfully we also have more drastic reimaginings like LA (or if they did a reimagining for an old region like what BW2 did over BW that would be great too) and I want to see more games like that and less games like BDSP. I don't want to revisit nostalgia and remember that the games had issues that are totally fixable in this day and age. That defeats the entire purpose of nostalgia.

Well the reason a lot speculated so was because of how prominently they showed Porygon-Z in the trailer. Given that is a platinum dex pokemon only in Sinnoh it made it a logical speculation (as it seemed odd for a pokemon to be featured when its not in the main dex). The other reasons are ORAS actually has a different dex to Ruby and Sapphire which helped its elite 4 issues slightly. The difference from the original Hoenn Pokédex is that 9 new Pokémon were added. (Gallade, Rhyperior, Magnezone, Budew, Roserade, Dusknoir, Chingling, Probopass & Froslass). Now while these are all connected by evolution they have excluded evolved forms from a dex in the remakes before (firered/leafgreen) and were limited to post-game and therefore it wasn't clear what they would do. There's also the let's go factor which didn't add evolutions but did add regional forms and completely rework the gym battles. It also did expand the dex slightly with Meltan and Melmetal. There's also sylveon which does evolves from existing Pokemon in eevee and thus at least it being added seemed logical (but didn't happen). There's also the Rotom Factor which is a Sinnoh Pokemon which could deal with a lot of the type issues by itself thanks to its forms (which unlike in platinum now changes types when it changes forms). I think an expanded dex was optimistic but not that surprising a hope in a region which already has had an expanded dex in a game. In the end it didn't happen and that's ok but it makes sense to me that there was that speculation.

No, you're not getting the argument. I'm not talking about BDSP not including the Platinum Dex (although that is a significant issue itself), this goes even further than that. I'm talking about ORAS not including an expansion similar to third versions like Platinum, BW2, USUM, and the SwSh Expansion Pass, which is something that no remake has done so far (closest equivalent would be LA adding in Pokemon that were not in DP or Platinum's Sinnoh Dex, but that was also primarily limited to Hisuian forms and new evolutions added in the game). I'm talking about something like ORAS adding say, a Gengar or Dragonite or Lapras to the Hoenn Dex. They're not Pokemon that were ever in the Hoenn Dex. But I think Pokemon like that need to be because of the dex variety issues that all of the older regional dexes have (most notable with some of the gym/Elite 4 rosters such as Flint's). Or hell, throw in something like Spiritomb or Druddigon or Beartic, which not only wasn't in the Hoenn Dex, but didn't even exist in Gen 3 at all if they really want to be bold (although in Kanto and Johto's case, this is going to be a necessity because their regional dexes are simply all of the Pokemon that existed at the time, you can't fix their Dragon or Ghost type issues without adding in newer gen families completely unrelated to their families). Just... something to fix these terrible limited old regional dexes where you can't build a damn monotype team without spamming the same family on your team. We're well past the point in this series where you should be forced to put 2 or 3+ Dragonites on your team, there are FAR too many Dragons (and every other type as well, but I was just using Dragonites and the Dragon type as an example) in existence in the 900+ National Dex for that to be a legitimate excuse, "MUH NUHSTAHLJUH!" be damned. We're well past the point where the games need to be relying on these archaic design conventions and the feeling of nostalgia is broken if the game's flaws are glaringly obvious.
 
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Kaede45

Member
Unfortunately they've already established that they don't want the burst mechanics to stick around, they're generational at best. Mega Evolution was really only used in Gen 6, where XY and ORAS were the only games that got new Megas. They appeared in Gen 7, but they were an afterthought then and they seemed to only include it because they felt they were obligated to at the time, whereas in Gen 8 they decided that they no longer had such sense of obligation and axed them completely. Z-Moves were only a Gen 7 mechanic, and an Alola mechanic at that because SM and USUM were the only games that had Z-Moves altogether. Then in Gen 8, both Megas and Z-Moves were cut, establishing a new precedent that burst mechanics are NOT here to stay, they're just replacing them with a new one in the next gen. So it's pretty safe to say that Dynamax will be Galar only, do not expect Dynamax to be in SV, they'll probably come up with some new gimmick that's similar to Megas, Z-Moves, and Dynamax.
What bothers me about this is that while mega evolution was an item, gigantimax is a “factor” meaning that if you invested time & effort into raising a Pokémon with the gigantimax factor & were looking forward to bringing it to another game, well you’re out of luck because apparently Pokémon with the gigantimax factor cannot move to any other games (at least as far as I’ve read…) besides SwSh!
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
No, you're not getting the argument. I'm not talking about BDSP not including the Platinum Dex (although that is a significant issue itself). I'm talking about ORAS not including an expansion similar to third versions like Platinum, BW2, USUM, and the SwSh Expansion Pass, which is something that no remake has done so far (closest equivalent would be LA adding in Pokemon that were not in DP or Platinum's Sinnoh Dex, but that was also primarily limited to Hisuian forms and new evolutions added in the game). I'm talking about something like ORAS adding say, a Gengar or Dragonite or Lapras to the Hoenn Dex. They're not Pokemon that were ever in the Hoenn Dex. But I think Pokemon like that need to be because of the dex variety issues that all of the older regional dexes have (most notable with some of the gym/Elite 4 rosters such as Flint's). Or hell, if they're really willing to be bold, throw in something like Spiritomb or Druddigon or Beartic, which not only wasn't in the Hoenn Dex, but didn't even exist in Gen 3 at all. Just... something to fix these terrible limited old regional dexes where you can't even build a damn monotype team without spamming the same family on your team. We're well past the point in this series where you should be forced to put 2 or 3+ Dragonites on your team, there are FAR too many Dragons in existence in the 900+ National Dex for that to be a legitimate excuse, "MUH NUHSTAHLJUH" be damned. We're well past the point where the games need to be relying on these archaic design conventions and the feeling of nostalgia is broken if the game's flaws are glaringly obvious.

Firstly i wasn't responding to your argument I understand it that just wasn't what I was referring to. It was to explain why it was at least reasonable speculation why people might have expected changes and possibly used either the platinum dex or slightly changed the parameters even though that ended up being wrong I can understand it.

Now as to your specific argument. Do I think they should have expanded the dex more beyond what was there initially yes. I personally would have added quite a few more Pokemon/forms to multiple different dexs and I can think of some easy Pokemon to do so which seem logical. This is one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of full cross-gen evolutions as that seems to be the main reason so far they will expand previous dexs.
But if they were not going to do that at the very least I think they should have been a bit more creative with some of the odd teams . The lets go games managed to do this with only the Kanto dex Pokemon and I do think there were creative ways to available solve at least some of the issues. I've mentioned before not being a fan of Glacia's initial team and personally I can think of 3 other Pokemon which can become ice types under certain circumstances and all 3 of them are Hoenn dex Pokemon. Though I still would have added a few more ice Pokemon myself like I'd have added more ice types in-general even if they ended up being pre-gen 3 ones like Delibird. Though I should also admit by adding Pokemon Like Dusknoir and Froslass to the elite 4 teams that is at least something.

Now as to the graphical issue. It doesn't bother me as personally as unless its making the game hard to play I don't care as much about graphics personally. But some people do and I can see why they didn't like it as much.
 
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Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Firstly i wasn't responding to your argument I understand it that just wasn't what I was referring to. It was to explain why it was at least reasonable speculation why people might have expected changes and possibly used either the platinum dex or slightly changed the parameters even though that ended up being wrong I can understand it.

Well the other thing is that we were entering uncharted territory. Platinum was the first game to add extra Pokemon to a regional dex, that was something unprecedented at the time. So when it came time to remake DP, the question of how they would address third version dex expansions was equally unprecedented, there was no past remake with a third version dex expansion that we could point to and say "this is how they handle dex expansions in remakes". I theorized we would looking at how past remakes like HGSS and ORAS were willing to throw in cross gen evos because that implied that they were willing to be as inclusive as possible with the dexes short of throwing in Pokemon unrelated to what was already there, which was something. Unfortunately that turned out to be wrong, and it seems that Dexit has changed their view on that, they no longer want to throw in cross gen evos as LGPE and BDSP indicate and they're now being extremely minimalist when it comes to remake rosters to the point that they've basically shifted to a "only include what was there in the originals" approach as I mentioned in my above analysis of the different flaws of every remake. So not only was it a reasonable guess that the Platinum Dex expansions might be in, but they've actually changed their MO with remakes now which made that guess less likely.

But if they were not going to do that at the very least I think they should have been a bit more creative with some of the odd teams . The lets go games managed to do this with only the Kanto dex Pokemon and I do think there were creative ways to available solve at least some of the issues. I've mentioned before not being a fan of Glacia's initial team and personally I can think of 3 other Pokemon which can become ice types under certain circumstances and all 3 of them are Hoenn dex Pokemon. Though I still would have added a few more ice Pokemon myself like I'd have added more ice types in-general even if they ended up being pre-gen 3 ones like Delibird.

They did, but the regional variants could only do so much. That's a bandaid on a bullet hole solution. You still couldn't get to the 5 or 6 fully evolved Pokemon per type that you needed to fully flesh out those rosters, and you really can't get away with it without throwing in new Pokemon. Even if you tried that with Kanto and had every cross gen evo, every regional variant, and every Mega, here's what you'd have (and note that I'm excluding legendaries because they're typically banned in competitive play and battle facilities, not that it matters much in Kanto's case because the only legendary that has a rare type for Kanto is Galarian Moltres):

Normal (14): Pidgeot, Raticate, Fearow, Wigglytuff, Kantonian Persian, Kantonian Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Lickilicky, Blissey, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Ditto, Porygon-Z, Snorlax
Grass (9): Venusaur, Vileplume, Bellosom, Parasect, Victreebel, Hisuian Electrode, Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Leafeon
Fire (7): Charizard, Kantonian Ninetales, Arcanine, Kantonian Rapidash, Alolan Marowak, Magmortar, Flareon
Water (18): Blastoise, Golduck, Poliwrath, Politoed, Tentacruel, Kantonian Slowbro, Johtoan Slowking, Dewgong, Cloyster, Kingler, Kingdra, Seaking, Starmie, Gyarados, Lapras, Vaporeon, Omastar, Kabutops
Electric (6): Raichu, Alolan Golem, Magnezone, Electrode, Electivire, Jolteon
Rock (7): Hisuian Arcanine, Golem, Rhyperior, Kleavor, Omaster, Kabutops, Aerodactyl
Ground (6): Kantonian Sandslash, Dugtrio, Kantonian Golem, Steelix, Kantonian Marowak, Rhyperior
Flying (11): Charizard, Butterfree, Pidgeot, Fearow, Crobat, Kantonian Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Mega Pinsir, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Dragonite
Bug (7): Butterfree, Beedrill, Parasect, Venomoth, Scizor, Kleavor, Pinsir
Poison (15): Venusaur, Beedrill, Arbok, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Crobat, Vileplume, Venomoth, Victreebel, Tentacruel, Galarian Slowbro, Galarian Slowking, Muk, Gengar, Weezing
Fighting (7): Primeape, Poliwrath, Machamp, Sirfetch'd, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop
Psychic (11): Alolan Raichu, Alakazam, Galarian Rapidash, Galarian Slowbro, Galarian Slowking, Hypno, Kantonian Exeggutor, Starmie, Mr. Rime, Jynx, Espeon
Ice (8): Alolan Sandslash, Alolan Ninetales, Dewgong, Cloyster, Mr. Rime, Jynx, Lapras, Glaceon
Ghost (2): Gengar, Alolan Marowak
Dragon (4): Mega Charizard X, Alolan Exeggutor, Kingdra, Dragonite
Dark (5): Alolan Raticate, Alolan Persian, Alolan Muk, Mega Gyarados, Umbreon
Steel (6): Alolan Sandslash, Alolan Dugtrio, Perrserker, Magnezone, Steelix, Scizor
Fairy (7): Clefable, Alolan Ninetales, Wigglytuff, Galarian Rapidash, Galarian Weezing, Kantonian Mr. Mime, Sylveon

So even after throwing in all of those forms (which we may never even get in the same game), you're still short 4 Ghosts, 2 Dragons, and 1 Dark. You could even throw in the Johto Dex additions and you still wouldn't get where you need to be, the dex is just that lacking that you need to dip into some later gen Pokemon to round things out.

Part of this is that there just weren't enough options in the entire National Dex for some of these rarer types until Gen 4 (like, if you start listing off non-legendary, FE Dragons in chronological order until you could count to 6, you'd have Dragonite, Kingdra, Flygon, Altaria Salamence, then Garchomp) so I'm kind of lenient on the original games for not balancing this because what could they even do to address that, you can't add something you don't have. The remakes though, that's another story, we're at a point where we have FAR more than 6 FE Pokemon for each type to say "Nope, sorry! We can't do anything to fix these older dexes".
 
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Luthor

Well-Known Member
Well the other thing is that we were entering uncharted territory. Platinum was the first game to add extra Pokemon to a regional dex, that was something unprecedented at the time. So when it came time to remake DP, the question of how they would address third version dex expansions was equally unprecedented, there was no past remake with a third version dex expansion that we could point to and say "this is how they handle dex expansions in remakes". I theorized we would looking at how past remakes like HGSS and ORAS were willing to throw in cross gen evos because that implied that they were willing to be as inclusive as possible with the dexes short of throwing in Pokemon unrelated to what was already there, which was something. Unfortunately that turned out to be wrong, and it seems that Dexit has changed their view on that, they no longer want to throw in cross gen evos as LGPE and BDSP indicate and they're now being extremely minimalist when it comes to remake rosters to the point that they've basically shifted to a "only include what was there in the originals" approach as I mentioned in my above analysis of the different flaws of every remake. So not only was it a reasonable guess that the Platinum Dex expansions might be in, but they've actually changed their MO with remakes now which made that guess less likely.



They did, but the regional variants could only do so much. That's a bandaid on a bullet hole solution. You still couldn't get to the 5 or 6 fully evolved Pokemon per type that you needed to fully flesh out those rosters, and you really can't get away with it without throwing in new Pokemon. Even if you tried that with Kanto and had every cross gen evo, every regional variant, and every Mega, here's what you'd have (and note that I'm excluding legendaries because they're typically banned in competitive play and battle facilities, not that it matters much in Kanto's case because the only legendary that has a rare type for Kanto is Galarian Moltres):

Normal (14): Pidgeot, Raticate, Fearow, Wigglytuff, Kantonian Persian, Kantonian Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Lickilicky, Blissey, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Ditto, Porygon-Z, Snorlax
Grass (9): Venusaur, Vileplume, Bellosom, Parasect, Victreebel, Hisuian Electrode, Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Leafeon
Fire (7): Charizard, Kantonian Ninetales, Arcanine, Kantonian Rapidash, Alolan Marowak, Magmortar, Flareon
Water (18): Blastoise, Golduck, Poliwrath, Politoed, Tentacruel, Kantonian Slowbro, Johtoan Slowking, Dewgong, Cloyster, Kingler, Kingdra, Seaking, Starmie, Gyarados, Lapras, Vaporeon, Omastar, Kabutops
Electric (6): Raichu, Alolan Golem, Magnezone, Electrode, Electivire, Jolteon
Rock (7): Hisuian Arcanine, Golem, Rhyperior, Kleavor, Omaster, Kabutops, Aerodactyl
Ground (6): Kantonian Sandslash, Dugtrio, Kantonian Golem, Steelix, Kantonian Marowak, Rhyperior
Flying (11): Charizard, Butterfree, Pidgeot, Fearow, Crobat, Kantonian Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Mega Pinsir, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Dragonite
Bug (7): Butterfree, Beedrill, Parasect, Venomoth, Scizor, Kleavor, Pinsir
Poison (15): Venusaur, Beedrill, Arbok, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Crobat, Vileplume, Venomoth, Victreebel, Tentacruel, Galarian Slowbro, Galarian Slowking, Muk, Gengar, Weezing
Fighting (7): Primeape, Poliwrath, Machamp, Sirfetch'd, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop
Psychic (11): Alolan Raichu, Alakazam, Galarian Rapidash, Galarian Slowbro, Galarian Slowking, Hypno, Kantonian Exeggutor, Starmie, Mr. Rime, Jynx, Espeon
Ice (8): Alolan Sandslash, Alolan Ninetales, Dewgong, Cloyster, Mr. Rime, Jynx, Lapras, Glaceon
Ghost (2): Gengar, Alolan Marowak
Dragon (4): Mega Charizard X, Alolan Exeggutor, Kingdra, Dragonite
Dark (5): Alolan Raticate, Alolan Persian, Alolan Muk, Mega Gyarados, Umbreon
Steel (6): Alolan Sandslash, Alolan Dugtrio, Perrserker, Magnezone, Steelix, Scizor
Fairy (7): Clefable, Alolan Ninetales, Wigglytuff, Galarian Rapidash, Galarian Weezing, Kantonian Mr. Mime, Sylveon

So even after throwing in all of those forms (which we may never even get in the same game), you're still short 4 Ghosts, 2 Dragons, and 1 Dark. You could even throw in the Johto Dex additions and you still wouldn't get where you need to be, the dex is just that lacking that you need to dip into some later gen Pokemon to round things out.

Part of this is that there just weren't enough options in the entire National Dex for some of these rarer types until Gen 4 (like, if you start listing off non-legendary, FE Dragons in chronological order until you could count to 6, you'd have Dragonite, Kingdra, Flygon, Altaria Salamence, then Garchomp) so I'm kind of lenient on the original games for not balancing this because what could they even do to address that, you can't add something you don't have. The remakes though, that's another story, we're at a point where we have FAR more than 6 FE Pokemon for each type to say "Nope, sorry! We can't do anything to fix these older dexes".


Now this I do agree with there are definite gaps in the early pokedex. My point is that if they don't add new cross gen-evolutions (which is my hope) and are going to limit us to the dexs as they were(I'd prefer them to expand the dex I just don't think they will) we currently have then I'd rather they avoid repeats even if they have to be flexible. An example is back in gen 1. Lorelei used a Slowbro which isn't an ice type but is probably the closest in the gen 1 dex (thanks to it having a shellder on its tail that could have become an Ice type) which to me is something I prefer over the Glacia approach where she used a team full of repeats. Most dragon type users use Gyarados which isn't a dragon type but it makes sense as the best option of what they have (and thematically makes sense). Lets go at least fixed teams with unnecessary repeats like Kogas team (which in yellow was 3 Venonats and a Venomoth) but in lets go he had 4 different poison types. That's what I mean by creative not just sticking to the exact teams when there are other options. I agree they probably should expand the dex of remakes beyond cross gens and regional forms but until they start doing so using the best available option makes sense to me. It is a band-aid solution but honestly I'd rather the band-aid than them not doing anything.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Now this I do agree with there are definite gaps in the early pokedex. My point is that if they don't add new cross gen-evolutions (which is my hope) and are going to limit us to the dexs as they were(I'd prefer them to expand the dex I just don't think they will) we currently have then I'd rather they avoid repeats even if they have to be flexible. An example is back in gen 1. Lorelei used a Slowbro which isn't an ice type but is probably the closest in the gen 1 dex (thanks to it having a shellder on its tail that could have become an Ice type) which to me is something I prefer over the Glacia approach where she used a team full of repeats. Most dragon type users use Gyarados which isn't a dragon type but it makes sense as the best option of what they have (and thematically makes sense). Lets go at least fixed teams with unnecessary repeats like Kogas team (which in yellow was 3 Venonats and a Venomoth) but in lets go he had 4 different poison types. That's what I mean by creative not just sticking to the exact teams when there are other options. I agree they probably should expand the dex of remakes beyond cross gens and regional forms but until they start doing so using the best available option makes sense to me. It is a band-aid solution but honestly I'd rather the band-aid than them not doing anything.

Eh, suit yourself but I don't like either approach. So not having the right dex variety is a no-win scenario to me.
 

Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.

Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.
One thing about oras i'd buy it without hesitation if it got redone for the Switch with Home compatibility. The tiny 3DS screens can quite taxing on the eyes.
They could make the HM's into wild pokemon helpers like BDSP but still keep HM's like Surf as Battle Moves. And just update the game into the same engine as scarlet/violet....that way Hoenn will feel much bigger (but not the BDSP chibi format)
 
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WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
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Please don't bump threads that are older than 60 days old. Thanks. There are some exceptions, such anything that's pinned, fan art and fan fiction. So please double check the rules in each section just to be sure.
 
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