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OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Rocxidi

The Jim Reaper
If they ban KS but free Aegislash, then they kinda have to consider unbanning Blaze Blaziken. And that to me is the biggest reason I'm against the idea.

No. Smogon has made their desire to avoid complex bans clear. This is just a special case where Haunter decided that King's Shield could be the only exception. Makes sense because King's Shield created uncompetitive coin flip scenarios that depended purely on luck, while its typing and pseudo 720 BST are things you can actually handle. As I had stated, Aegislash King's Shield is broken.

Also, unbanning Blaze Blaziken can only be done by banning Speed Boost. There go Scolipede and friends. Same for Greninja.

And finally, Darkrai and Shaymin aren't ubers just because of Dark Void and Seed Flare respectively. Darkrai is fast and has a great movepool, while Shaymin remains fast and is still able to flinch you with Air Slash.
 

Sparkbeat

FLASH! AAAHHHAAA!
No. Smogon has made their desire to avoid complex bans clear. This is just a special case where Haunter decided that King's Shield could be the only exception. Makes sense because King's Shield created uncompetitive coin flip scenarios that depended purely on luck, while its typing and pseudo 720 BST are things you can actually handle. As I had stated, Aegislash King's Shield is broken.

Competitive Pokemon is 90% coin flips. King's Shield is just a really obvious one. If you ban King's Shield based on, "It creates too many coin flip scenarios," then you'd also need to ban the use of any Pokemon besides Level 100 Pikachu that only know Quick Attack, and edit the damage modifier to be consistent, remove critical hits, and then change speed ties to back and forth attacks. But then it'd still come down to the RNG that decides which player gets to be Player 1. Hate to be blunt, but Pokemon is, from nearly every aspect, a heavily luck based game, and it's just something you've gotta learn to deal with.

Smogon really needs to stick to it's guns on, "No Complex Bans whatsoever," because it, in all honesty, is the easiest and best way to do about things. If a move combo / ability is broken in every situation on every Pokemon, then yeah, ban it. But if it's only the move in combination with the Pokemon, then that's just as much the Pokemon itself being broken. Moody would be broken on Smeargle. Swagger + Foul Play would still be what is now considered broken on Smeargle. King's Shield is in no way overpowered on Smeargle. It's why Darkrai has never been retested in OU with a "Dark Void is banned" clause, because it's an unnecessary complex ban. We've moved on past Gen 5's Swift Swim ban. Now we're in a state that has, to my knowledge, no wishy washy complex bans, and has no reason to make any. Aegislash's ability in combination with King's Shield is what makes it broken. No King's Shield, and not Stance Change. Their combination. It's the same reasoning people use to say no to allowing Blaze Blaziken back in OU. Speed Boost isn't broken, Blaziken isn't broken, but combined they are.
 

Rocxidi

The Jim Reaper
Competitive Pokemon is 90% coin flips. King's Shield is just a really obvious one. If you ban King's Shield based on, "It creates too many coin flip scenarios," then you'd also need to ban the use of any Pokemon besides Level 100 Pikachu that only know Quick Attack, and edit the damage modifier to be consistent, remove critical hits, and then change speed ties to back and forth attacks. But then it'd still come down to the RNG that decides which player gets to be Player 1. Hate to be blunt, but Pokemon is, from nearly every aspect, a heavily luck based game, and it's just something you've gotta learn to deal with.

Smogon really needs to stick to it's guns on, "No Complex Bans whatsoever," because it, in all honesty, is the easiest and best way to do about things. If a move combo / ability is broken in every situation on every Pokemon, then yeah, ban it. But if it's only the move in combination with the Pokemon, then that's just as much the Pokemon itself being broken. Moody would be broken on Smeargle. Swagger + Foul Play would still be what is now considered broken on Smeargle. King's Shield is in no way overpowered on Smeargle. It's why Darkrai has never been retested in OU with a "Dark Void is banned" clause, because it's an unnecessary complex ban. We've moved on past Gen 5's Swift Swim ban. Now we're in a state that has, to my knowledge, no wishy washy complex bans, and has no reason to make any. Aegislash's ability in combination with King's Shield is what makes it broken. No King's Shield, and not Stance Change. Their combination. It's the same reasoning people use to say no to allowing Blaze Blaziken back in OU. Speed Boost isn't broken, Blaziken isn't broken, but combined they are.

Last time I checked, coins only have two sides. Damage has a ton of possible outcomes, critical hits occur once every 16 attacks, and every other significant side effect has a 10 to 30 percent chance of occuring, significantly lower than 50/50's. Furthermore, if King's Shield halves your attack, your momentum is pretty much gone. If you don't attack and leave yourself open, you take a huge dent to your health.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
I feel the argument being made has more to do with the fact that at the end of the day, Pokemon is a game that revolves heavily around luck and therefore banning King's Shield based solely on the so-called 50/50's being uncompetitive seems kind of loose. Even when it comes to making optimal moves, a lot of turns come down to whether or not the opponent's move is one that favors you or not and there's always luck involved with that. King's Shield just emphasizes this aspect of Pokemon more.

Regardless of whether that's what he meant though, I still agree that there shouldn't be a King's Shield ban. There's no way to hide the fact that it's a complex ban, and if the only point of a King's Shield ban is just for the sake of allowing Aegislash to be in OU as a shaky incomplete Pokemon then I'm not a fan of the idea. It also sets a bad precedent for future complex bans that Smogon has been trying to avoid forever. Yeah, circumstances are different for other cases like Protean Greninja and Speed Boost Blaziken but it's still a complex ban no matter how you slice it.
 
Nah, a King's Shield ban would be a simple ban for the same reason that bans on stuff like Greninja, Soul Dew, Moody, and Double Team are simple bans. You aren't banning King's Shield + Aegislash, you're just banning King's Shield.

I still don't think it's a good idea, but it's certainly not complex.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
I guess but I mean my point is more that it's splitting hairs too much with King's Shield because Aegislash is literally "King's Shield: The Pokemon." King's Shield is as integral to Aegislash's existence as a Pokemon as Griseous Orb is to Giratina-O, only difference being that Aegislash can physically exist without King's Shield (even though it shouldn't) while Giratina-O explicitly requires its Orb.
 

Valkaryie

Banned
I guess but I mean my point is more that it's splitting hairs too much with King's Shield because Aegislash is literally "King's Shield: The Pokemon." King's Shield is as integral to Aegislash's existence as a Pokemon as Griseous Orb is to Giratina-O, only difference being that Aegislash can physically exist without King's Shield (even though it shouldn't) while Giratina-O explicitly requires its Orb.

So basically, you're saying that Aegislash is only good because of King shield? I can see where you're coming from with that but I have to provide a counterpoint. Aegislash still has 150 Def and SpDef even without King Shield. If you run a subtoxic set too, you can still set up everything with your defenses, and only have to switch to blade form after it has set up it's defenses. And while it might seem stupid to say this, even if Aegislash loses King Shield it still has monumental offenses and can be used as an offensive pivot of need be.

At the end of the day, Aegislash doesn't need King Shield to be a good Pokemon, it just requires a little more support is all.

Quick Edit: I realize that almost all Aegislash sets right now run King Shield, but I'd honestly like to see what people could come up with if KS was in fact banned. Might change the thing for the better, or for the worse.
 
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Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
So basically, you're saying that Aegislash is only good because of King shield?

Well that's not really what I'm saying. I'm not implying that Aegislash is bad without King's Shield or that it's only good because it has King's Shield. What I'm trying to get at is that Aegislash was explicitly made for use with King's Shield (i.e. they're a single unit and shouldn't really be split), as noted through its ability being unable to function at its maximum capacity without the use of King's Shield.

In the end, banning King's Shield is akin to banning part of Stance Change's core functionality, which is a blurred line I'd rather them not get into. I'm just really not a fan of the move ban idea here, I would have preferred they kept to a simple ban/don't ban Aegislash decision here and not thrown in the third variable.
 

Mr. Reloaded

All encompassing
Let's be honest now. Was anyone shocked by Mamoswine's or Mandibuzz's drop to UU?
 

saPower1000

FLIP ALL THE TABLES
I still find it really strange that they think that making a Pokemon lose a pivotal attack (and in effect) be ability-less is a good idea.
Sure, I'd love to see it drop back into OU, but without KS, it means it's just going to be a tank, or do some weird shenanigans like Autotomize.

Besides, matches are pretty much coinflips. If we think about it on the basic level of prediction, you either predict what the opponent will do and get it right or you don't. Things like Bisharp and (yeah I'm going to say it because I use it) Zygarde do check it to a degree (Zygarde has to watch out for Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon without proper bulk), and Defiant for Bisharp makes KS just a "switch forms" move, while Zygard can just DD on a predict and EQ, or just straight EQ. Not to mention a lot of things carry EQ which removes that as a problem and makes it more of a turn wasted, while fast special users have to be careful of SS. That being said, my M-Zam survived a +0 SS when it was at around 80%. What I mean is, it's scary, but SS is given a lot more credit on it that I think is warranted.

I'm aware of how black and white the coinflip scenario is for Aegislash, but it just seems odd that it being a momentum killer is this much of a problem, as there are a lot of Pokemon that do that. Aegislash just puts a lot of emphasis on it with a specific move, and this is only if the attacker is a Physical/Mixed one that makes contact.

I'm not saying bring it back in with Kings Shield, but I don't see the point of bringing it back without Kings Shield, as then it isn't nearly as good a pivot. Just my 2 cents.
 

Djura

99% chance to hit
So Clefable is S rank in OU now. I need to go to bed but before I do that I need to put my thoughts in a post.

So much for Mega Metagross holding it back. I kind of disagreed with Clefable's rise to S based on base stats alone; I mean, during its time in A+ it was dancing on that line between A+ and S. It had all the qualities of an S rank mon, and now I can see why it rose. Magic Guard is a huge factor, and to some extent the less-popular but just as effective Unaware helped it rise.

Did anyone see this coming?
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
So Clefable is S rank in OU now. I need to go to bed but before I do that I need to put my thoughts in a post.

So much for Mega Metagross holding it back. I kind of disagreed with Clefable's rise to S based on base stats alone; I mean, during its time in A+ it was dancing on that line between A+ and S. It had all the qualities of an S rank mon, and now I can see why it rose. Magic Guard is a huge factor, and to some extent the less-popular but just as effective Unaware helped it rise.

Did anyone see this coming?

I seen it coming for sure, Clefable is an amazing pokemon. Nice stats, two quality abilities and it can run a few sets and can be a win condition with Calm Mind. Clef is on almost every team i've made in ORAS.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
Honestly it's amazing how much just a simple type change can help a Pokemon. From RU to top tier OU in a single generation is pretty big and also a testament to how good Fairy is as a typing. It's pretty much gained nothing except a type change to Fairy and the respective Moonblast. It's also a prominent example of "BST doesn't make something good/bad" because seriously Clefable's stat distribution is pretty mediocre. On its own 95/70/73/85/90/60 does not look particularly amazing, yet it's shot up so high despite all of this. I guess you could say I'm impressed Clefable has managed to make it into OU, let alone A+ and S rank.
 
I don't really care for viability rankings, but Clefable is seriously top-tier in ORAS. It has two amazing abilities and multiple viable sets, but its CM set is undoubtedly the most powerful Clefable set in OU. It just sets up on so much of the tier, and it has basically no counters depending on the coverage move.
Calm Mind / Moonblast / Softboiled / X.

The first three moves are pretty standard, but X can be anything [ Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Thunder Wave, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Rock (lol)]
Honestly, I've used all of these (except HP Rock) and they all have their uses for beating the CM set's typical counter (usually Gliscor / Talonflame / Heatran). Most teams only have one pokemon that's stopping the Clefable sweep, so it's incredibly tough to handle. With Bold 252 Def, Clefable also has respectable physical bulk, meaning it can survive stuff like unboosted Mega Scizor Bullet Punch and promptly OHKO back with Flamethrower.

Overall, very well deserved S ranking mon in my opinion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also got reqs for Aegislash, and the ladder hasn't changed my mind so I'm still voting ban !
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
You honestly shouldn't vote based off of ladder experience, because the ladder is very non-indicative. People spam Hyper Offense to get reqs as fast as possible on top of spamming Aegislash because new (re-introduced?) toy syndrome, so of course it's going to be everywhere. I'd watch some high level games and tours to see what people have been doing, and even then the sample size is probably too small.

I think the system should be redone or lengthed so we actually get a good idea of how the supsect affects the meta. At the very least make it so a ladder ranking (COIL or otherwise) isn't a part of the requirements so people aren't pressured into getting it as fast as possible and actually experiment.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Honestly it's amazing how much just a simple type change can help a Pokemon. From RU to top tier OU in a single generation is pretty big and also a testament to how good Fairy is as a typing. It's pretty much gained nothing except a type change to Fairy and the respective Moonblast. It's also a prominent example of "BST doesn't make something good/bad" because seriously Clefable's stat distribution is pretty mediocre. On its own 95/70/73/85/90/60 does not look particularly amazing, yet it's shot up so high despite all of this. I guess you could say I'm impressed Clefable has managed to make it into OU, let alone A+ and S rank.

I think what really gave clefable its boost were its abilities...yes, the fairy typing is nice because it allows it to resist fighting, probably the most offensive moves in OU...but what made it stand out in the end was still its ability...I mean look at wigglytuff...it has basically the same stats as clefable (sure it swaps some defenses for hp but it's still a bulk focused defensive mon) and a similar move pool...it also got the fairy typing...however, it got nothing in terms of usage...another Pokemon for comparison is florges...although it is arguable that florges isn't as high is because of its subpar movepool...however, it has all the tools a defensive wall needs...it can even try to run the same set clefable runs...however, it flops in terms of its useless doubles-oriented abilities (honestly I would have loved natural cure)....I still think the reason that clefable got so good is because it was already decent to begin with thanks to its abilities and the fairy typing just gave it that niche in OU...I'm pretty sure if it didn't have those abilities, even the fairy typing wouldn't have made it as popular as it is now...

Now if we REALLY want to talk about a miracle, let's talk about serperior lol...
 
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ger9119

Well-Known Member
I think what really gave clefable its boost were its abilities...yes, the fairy typing is nice because it allows it to resist fighting, probably the most offensive moves in OU...but what made it stand out in the end was still its ability...I mean look at wigglytuff...it has basically the same stats as clefable (sure it swaps some defenses for hp but it's still a bulk focused defensive mon) and a similar move pool...it also got the fairy typing...however, it got nothing in terms of usage...another Pokemon for comparison is florges...although it is arguable that florges isn't as high is because of its subpar movepool...however, it has all the tools a defensive wall needs...it can even try to run the same set clefable runs...however, it flops in terms of its useless doubles-oriented abilities (honestly I would have loved natural cure)....I still think the reason that clefable got so good is because it was already decent to begin with thanks to its abilities and the fairy typing just gave it that niche in OU...I'm pretty sure if it didn't have those abilities, even the fairy typing wouldn't have made it as popular as it is now...

Now if we REALLY want to talk about a miracle, let's talk about serperior lol...

You just said why Clefable is better than both, Wiggly is also Normal/Fairy if it was pure fairy it would be decent even with subpar bulk. Florges is good on paper but doesn't deliver.

Serperior isn't a shock, once it got that ability i knew it would be OU at some point. It's speed plus contary makes it very good.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
I think what really gave clefable its boost were its abilities...yes, the fairy typing is nice because it allows it to resist fighting, probably the most offensive moves in OU...but what made it stand out in the end was still its ability...I mean look at wigglytuff...it has basically the same stats as clefable (sure it swaps some defenses for hp but it's still a bulk focused defensive mon) and a similar move pool...it also got the fairy typing...however, it got nothing in terms of usage...another Pokemon for comparison is florges...although it is arguable that florges isn't as high is because of its subpar movepool...however, it has all the tools a defensive wall needs...it can even try to run the same set clefable runs...however, it flops in terms of its useless doubles-oriented abilities (honestly I would have loved natural cure)....I still think the reason that clefable got so good is because it was already decent to begin with thanks to its abilities and the fairy typing just gave it that niche in OU...I'm pretty sure if it didn't have those abilities, even the fairy typing wouldn't have made it as popular as it is now...

Now if we REALLY want to talk about a miracle, let's talk about serperior lol...

Oh no, Clefable definitely has a lot of other things going for it that helped it rise but every single thing Clefable has now is something it had last gen. The only exception is it wasn't Fairy type last gen. Simply changing it to a pure Fairy type helped it so much it practically made a world of a difference, which was my point.
 
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