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OU Metagame Discussion Thread

XXD17

Draco rex
You just said why Clefable is better than both, Wiggly is also Normal/Fairy if it was pure fairy it would be decent even with subpar bulk. Florges is good on paper but doesn't deliver.

Serperior isn't a shock, once it got that ability i knew it would be OU at some point. It's speed plus contary makes it very good.

But as normal/ fairy, it just gains neutrality from fighting while an immunity from ghost in addition to dragon...how would it be better if it was just plain fairy? Is it just the bulk issue then? Or is it because it has to resort to play rough rather than moonblast making a CM set inviable?

Also, I know that clefable is better lol...I was just trying to make a point that clefable isn't better just because it got a new typing but mostly because it had amazing abilities to begin with...the new typing just gave it that last 2% it needed to be really good in OU...

As for serp, I actually never thought it would make OU because of birdspam and heatran being everywhere...i mean look at what's happening to poor gallade all because of aegislash's retesting...granted serp can run HP rock or ground (and t-flame/ heatran aren't nearly as intimidating as aegislash) but that makes it lose coverage that it never had to begin with...but I guess it can function optimally as a supportive threat in OU with glare and knock off...I just personally find it pretty hard to sweep with it in OU and I've been using it to death since it's my favorite 'mon...
 
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KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
But as normal/ fairy, it just gains neutrality from fighting while an immunity from ghost in addition to dragon...how would it be better if it was just plain fairy? Is it just the bulk issue then? Or is it because it has to resort to play rough rather than moonblast making a CM set inviable?

Wigglytuff's problem is that all of its stats bar HP are bad, even though it got a decent ability in Competitive. It'll never be OU-worthy as long as its non-HP stats remain garbage, since low defensive stats compromise its bulk, poor speed holds back offensive sets, and its power is average at best if it can't net a competitive boost. Clefable pretty much entirely outclasses it due to superior abilities, better stats all around except for HP, and a better movepool. Wigglytuff also has to worry about other fairies such as Sylveon and Mega Gardevoir, who don't need the situational Competitive Boost and can instead just murder with Pixilate Hyper Voice.

Also, I know that clefable is better lol...I was just trying to make a point that clefable isn't better just because it got a new typing but mostly because it had amazing abilities to begin with...the new typing just gave it that last 2% it needed to be really good in OU...

You're really downplaying how significant fairy typing was for Clefable. It was far from "2% off" from being OU in Gen 5 (which is as arbitrary a statement as you can get), since it was in RU in Gen 5. Its abilities are great, there's no denying that, but as we saw in Gen 5, it needed more than just solid abilities and even a great movepool; mono-normal typing is really hard to work with, since 1) its lack of resistances means it's relatively difficult to switch in, and 2) Fighting typing was extremely popular in Gen 5 (and still is to an extent). Fairy typing boosted this unassuming Pokemon into stardom, rising from RU to top tier OU. Resisting the ever popular fighting, dark (Knock Off!) and to a lesser extent bug (at least U-Turn spam isn't much of a big deal), in addition to a new immunity to dragon, was a huge deal. Even the new weaknesses to Poison and Steel are relatively inconsequential, because they're rare on non-STAB users, making them very easy to predict. Honestly, Fairy typing was something you could basically slap on any Pokemon and instantly make it better. Clefable being the prime example, but things like Azumarill, Gardevoir, and even Granbull all greatly appreciated the new typing.

As for serp, I actually never thought it would make OU because of birdspam and heatran being everywhere...i mean look at what's happening to poor gallade all because of aegislash's retesting...granted serp can run HP rock or ground (and t-flame/ heatran aren't nearly as intimidating as aegislash) but that makes it lose coverage that it never had to begin with...but I guess it can function optimally as a supportive threat in OU with glare and knock off...I just personally find it pretty hard to sweep with it in OU and I've been using it to death since it's my favorite 'mon...

Having checks and counters doesn't make a Pokemon not viable, especially since Talonflame isn't that hard to deal with, and if your team can't deal with Heatran you're probably going to have problems regardless. It's still got a great speed tier, and the fact that it gets progressively harder to wall just by spamming its best STAB attack is something that can never be downplayed. Even checks can lose to it, since even grass resists can get wrecked by the appropriate +2 coverage move.

Also, Gallade's problems began prior to Aegislash's retest; its usage had been dwindling prior. Its issue was that there were so many other Mega Evolutions which were being preferred for the single Mega Evolution slot, with things like Mega Scizor, MegaZards, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, etc. running around, all of whom were hugely influential and much more viable. Mega Gallade's not a bad Pokemon by any means, but when you've only got one Mega Evolution per battle, there's a lot more competition, and Mega Gallade had issues making the cut.
 
Yeah lol, Clefable's new typing is easily the reason it's top-tier OU right now. I'd even be so bold as to say that Fairy is currently the best type in the game. I mean, Clefable's fantastic abilities obviously have a lot of impact (they're basically the greatest reason that Sylveon isn't the Fairy cleric of choice in OU right now), but you don't go from RU to S Rank OU in one generation on a mere 2% increase. Fairy typing was a huge deal. The main reason, say, Florges is unviable in OU is because it's basically Sylveon, only worse in more ways than it is better. Even then, look at Florges in UU. It's a Pokemon with a crappy offensive movepool, two completely useless abilities, and a very lopsided stat spread (it has solid special power and great special bulk, but it's mediocre or just bad in most other aspects), yet it's a very solid UU Pokemon. It's all in the Fairy typing.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
But as normal/ fairy, it just gains neutrality from fighting while an immunity from ghost in addition to dragon...how would it be better if it was just plain fairy? Is it just the bulk issue then? Or is it because it has to resort to play rough rather than moonblast making a CM set inviable?

Also, I know that clefable is better lol...I was just trying to make a point that clefable isn't better just because it got a new typing but mostly because it had amazing abilities to begin with...the new typing just gave it that last 2% it needed to be really good in OU...

As for serp, I actually never thought it would make OU because of birdspam and heatran being everywhere...i mean look at what's happening to poor gallade all because of aegislash's retesting...granted serp can run HP rock or ground (and t-flame/ heatran aren't nearly as intimidating as aegislash) but that makes it lose coverage that it never had to begin with...but I guess it can function optimally as a supportive threat in OU with glare and knock off...I just personally find it pretty hard to sweep with it in OU and I've been using it to death since it's my favorite 'mon...

The whole checks/counters argument is a bad one but i won't restate what was said above. There's just better mega options that you can run over Gallade.

Yeah lol, Clefable's new typing is easily the reason it's top-tier OU right now. I'd even be so bold as to say that Fairy is currently the best type in the game. I mean, Clefable's fantastic abilities obviously have a lot of impact (they're basically the greatest reason that Sylveon isn't the Fairy cleric of choice in OU right now), but you don't go from RU to S Rank OU in one generation on a mere 2% increase. Fairy typing was a huge deal. The main reason, say, Florges is unviable in OU is because it's basically Sylveon, only worse in more ways than it is better. Even then, look at Florges in UU. It's a Pokemon with a crappy offensive movepool, two completely useless abilities, and a very lopsided stat spread (it has solid special power and great special bulk, but it's mediocre or just bad in most other aspects), yet it's a very solid UU Pokemon. It's all in the Fairy typing.

M-Gardevoir is a close second it's very good, but Clef has a slight edge.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
And aegislash stays uber with a 70% vote superiority on the ban side.

Holy **** man, I knew the ladder was cancer but when I voted I didn't expect this outcome XD
 

phanpycross

God-king
And aegislash stays uber with a 70% vote superiority on the ban side.

Holy **** man, I knew the ladder was cancer but when I voted I didn't expect this outcome XD

Thank the heavens, OU with aegis was a Pile of Sh*t in all honesty, and banning King's shield alwasy sounded like a poor compromise IMO.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Thank the heavens, OU with aegis was a Pile of Sh*t in all honesty, and banning King's shield alwasy sounded like a poor compromise IMO.

Yep, but also that 70% is hilarious XD
 

Djura

99% chance to hit
And aegislash stays uber with a 70% vote superiority on the ban side.

Holy **** man, I knew the ladder was cancer but when I voted I didn't expect this outcome XD

Oh good. This dumb suspect came to a close pretty early.

Anyway, I hopped onto Smogon IRC and I heard that besides the obvious Landorus-I, another potential suspect would be Mega Altaria, for having ridiculous versatility and checks and counters depending on its set.

Sounds familiar.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Oh good. This dumb suspect came to a close pretty early.

Anyway, I hopped onto Smogon IRC and I heard that besides the obvious Landorus-I, another potential suspect would be Mega Altaria, for having ridiculous versatility and checks and counters depending on its set.

Sounds familiar.

Wouldn't mind either tbh, both are very difficult to beat especially Lando-I.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Oh good. This dumb suspect came to a close pretty early.

Anyway, I hopped onto Smogon IRC and I heard that besides the obvious Landorus-I, another potential suspect would be Mega Altaria, for having ridiculous versatility and checks and counters depending on its set.

Sounds familiar.

Reminds me of a toned down luke argument, anyways altaria would be a focus of controversy to be honest.
 

Mr. Reloaded

Cause a pirate is free
Now if only we can get a Lando-I suspect...
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Hope in humanity is restored, altough I still don't understand what was the council trying to achieve with this charade of a suspect, it became obvious at day 5 that it wasn't helping at all. I think this was nothing but a publicity stunt went wrong, centralization to improve skill on a pokemon that generates excessive momentum shift that only became better on the game shift... But yep this 70% restored my faith in humanity.

Let's hope Landorus-I gets the test soon, he is really rising flags on the too good and relatively splashable department.
 

Aduro

Mt.BtlMaster
It will be a relief for me if they ban it, it got too many playable sets to reliably predict, its U-Turn is deadly and its Achilles heel, Ice Shard just isn't that common in OU, I usually only see it on Mamoswine or Weavile which can't switch into it. The big downside is that my Kyurem-B will see less action and the OU might be focusing too much on mega evolved pokemon without it.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
It will be a relief for me if they ban it, it got too many playable sets to reliably predict, its U-Turn is deadly and its Achilles heel, Ice Shard just isn't that common in OU, I usually only see it on Mamoswine or Weavile which can't switch into it. The big downside is that my Kyurem-B will see less action and the OU might be focusing too much on mega evolved pokemon without it.
Kyurem-B's usage has literally nothing to do with Lando-I's, and Scarf actually fails to revenge Rock Polish sets (besides being incredibly obvious).
 

Ace Trainer Riana

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I've never seen what's great about Landorus and yes I've used it. I think the other form is superior because it can run choice scarf. I saw people listing all these different sets, but one Landorus can't run all of those sets. If it destroys your slow pokemon, run faster pokemon. It if doesn't run Psychic, it loses to Keldeo. If it doesn't have knock off it loses to Latias and Latios. If it doesn't have sludge wave, it loses to Altaria. It doesn't take hits and is easily worn down. I hear people calling it a sweeper, but what does it sweep? This isn't Altaria or Charizard X which can take out a teams a single boost. Unlike Aegislash, it doesn't require preparation to beat because you need run a flying type which any good team would already have.

Altaria would much more worthy of test because it has a limited number of counters and not bringing one of those counters mean you lose it if sets up.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I've never seen what's great about Landorus and yes I've used it. I think the other form is superior because it can run choice scarf. I saw people listing all these different sets, but one Landorus can't run all of those sets. If it destroys your slow pokemon, run faster pokemon. It if doesn't run Psychic, it loses to Keldeo. If it doesn't have knock off it loses to Latias and Latios. If it doesn't have sludge wave, it loses to Altaria. It doesn't take hits and is easily worn down. I hear people calling it a sweeper, but what does it sweep? This isn't Altaria or Charizard X which can take out a teams a single boost. Unlike Aegislash, it doesn't require preparation to beat because you run a flying type.

Altaria would much more worthy of test because it has a limited number of counters and not bringing one of those counters mean you lose it if sets up.

Rock Polish sweeps and so does Calm Mind, Sheer Force + LO is amazing and it has plenty of coverage options. Your whole post is wrong and invalid since you clearly don't have enough experience playing the tier to see how powerful Landorus-I is. It has things that can counter it but literally every single pokemon does so your argument is wrong for the get go. If you're not preparing for Lando-I when teambuilding you're not doing a very good job with the team you're making. if you don't have a counter to RP Lando you will get swept it's pretty simple. It's one of the few truly broken things in the tier. Can't wait for it to be gone.
 
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