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OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
Rock Polish sweeps offense mostly, as at +2 it outspeeds everything in the meta and runs Modest so it can net more KOs (also lets it do work against slower teams). Even a 4 Attacks set or 3 Attacks + Stealth Rock is stupidly hard to switch into unless you have Cresselia or Mega Latias (the only counters), and both can be dealt with using a Tyranitar (Scarf or Band).
 

Djura

99% chance to hit
Honestly, I've never seen what's great about Landorus and yes I've used it.
I think that's the sound of thousands of high ranked players groaning and were suddenly silenced. Your experience =/= everyone else's.
I think the other form is superior because it can run choice scarf.
Which doesn't have the immediate wallbreaking power. Landorus-T's main function is usually a pivot and/or a revenge killer.
I saw people listing all these different sets, but one Landorus can't run all of those sets. If it destroys your slow pokemon, run faster pokemon. It if doesn't run Psychic, it loses to Keldeo. If it doesn't have knock off it loses to Latias and Latios. If it doesn't have sludge wave, it loses to Altaria.
That's like saying Greninja had 4MSS. You build Landorus-I based on what your team needs. Of course you can't run everything, but having to guess its three other moves is dumb as all hell.
It doesn't take hits and is easily worn down.
Uh, having Stealth Rock neutrality and immunity to Spikes isn't "easily worn down." Sheer Force negates Life Orb recoil with the exceptions of Hidden Power Ice and Knock Off, and furthermore it can't be paralyzed with Thunder Wave.
I hear people calling it a sweeper, but what does it sweep? This isn't Altaria or Charizard X which can take out a teams a single boost.
Read: Sheer Force + Life Orb. That alone gives it the sweeping prowess it needs in addition to the Rock Polish boost.
Unlike Aegislash, it doesn't require preparation to beat because you need run a flying type which any good team would already have.
The meta has been given enough time to adapt to Landorus-I, and the reverse happened.
Altaria would much more worthy of test because it has a limited number of counters and not bringing one of those counters mean you lose it if sets up.
This is about Landorus, not Altaria.

oh my god this argument has more holes than swiss cheese
 
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Everstoned

Koffing and Weezing
Is it wrong that I don't want Lando-I banned because I haven't used it on a team yet? >.>

In all seriousness though, this test was needed and has been coming for a while. I feel like after this (likely) gets banned, smogon will probably retest M-Metagross as well.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
Is it wrong that I don't want Lando-I banned because I haven't used it on a team yet? >.>

In all seriousness though, this test was needed and has been coming for a while. I feel like after this (likely) gets banned, smogon will probably retest M-Metagross as well.
A test for Mega Altaria is more likely, as it hasn't even been 6 months since Mega Metagross' test.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Is it wrong that I don't want Lando-I banned because I haven't used it on a team yet? >.>

In all seriousness though, this test was needed and has been coming for a while. I feel like after this (likely) gets banned, smogon will probably retest M-Metagross as well.

It's pretty much a given that Altaria is next, and overall it's quite better than Mega Metagross is.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Yep altaria might be the next, shame tough I always bank on its versatility as a team builder, but it's kinda proving to be too much to prepare for in the OU metagame.
 

Everstoned

Koffing and Weezing
A test for Mega Altaria is more likely, as it hasn't even been 6 months since Mega Metagross' test.

Good point, I wasn't aware of the etiquette for retesting suspect mons. I still feel like a M-Metagross retest is inevitable, albeit later down the road. Unless the new games being announced soon come out first. :p

It's pretty much a given that Altaria is next, and overall it's quite better than Mega Metagross is.

I personally prefer Metagross because of it's more immediate offensive presence, but I agree that Altaria is a more potent and versatile threat.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Good point, I wasn't aware of the etiquette for retesting suspect mons. I still feel like a M-Metagross retest is inevitable, albeit later down the road. Unless the new games being announced soon come out first. :p



I personally prefer Metagross because of it's more immediate offensive presence, but I agree that Altaria is a more potent and versatile threat.

It's a mix of being versatile and having so many great resists too, hate facing it personally.
 

Everstoned

Koffing and Weezing
It's a mix of being versatile and having so many great resists too, hate facing it personally.

It's typing can be a blessing and a curse, giving it a lot of switch ins but leaving it vulnerable to a number of threats on offense. I usually run offensive teambuilds which can check it quickly. But it's incredibly hard to prevent from setting up, since defensive checks are few and far between and it gets a lot of opportunities to come in with a few key resists and situational immunity to status moves. That and the fact that it can also be an amazing lure that pairs very well with quite a few notable threats.

On a side note, what do people think about Keldeo's S-ranking?
 
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ger9119

Well-Known Member
It's typing can be a blessing and a curse, giving it a lot of switch ins but leaving it vulnerable to a number of threats on offense. I usually run offensive teambuilds which can check it quickly. But it's incredibly hard to prevent from setting up, since defensive checks are few and far between and it gets a lot of opportunities to come in with a few key resists and situational immunity to status moves. That and the fact that it can also be an amazing lure that pairs very well with quite a few notable threats.

On a side note, what do people think about Keldeo's S-ranking?

Keldeo is a pretty awesome pokemon, can run a few sets that can throw people off as well. It fits on a few kinds of teams, works well with a lot of pokemon and has great typing for an offensive pokemon Water/Fighting hits a lot of things (barring Mega Alt, Latis)
 

Moonclawz

Aura Trainer
It's typing can be a blessing and a curse, giving it a lot of switch ins but leaving it vulnerable to a number of threats on offense. I usually run offensive teambuilds which can check it quickly. But it's incredibly hard to prevent from setting up, since defensive checks are few and far between and it gets a lot of opportunities to come in with a few key resists and situational immunity to status moves. That and the fact that it can also be an amazing lure that pairs very well with quite a few notable threats.

On a side note, what do people think about Keldeo's S-ranking?

Keldeo is a really great offensive Pokemon - having good speed, great STABs, and high special attack. I think what pushes Keldeo into S-rank though is it's ability to easily wear down many of its checks via Scald burns and Pursuit support from its partners. For example, against Latias, Keldeo can just spam Scald until Latias is burned, which greatly reduces its effectiveness as a check.
 
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KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
I think what pushes Keldeo into S-rank though is it's ability to easily wear down many of its checks via Scald burns and Pursuit.

Pursuit? I'm assuming you mean from teammates like Bisharp or Tyranitar but that could be worded better

Also worth noting is Secret Sword. Barring the fact that it's one of the few reliable special fighting attacks aka no need for Focus Miss, the fact that it targets defense allows it to circumvent specially defensive Pokemon, such as easily 2HKOing Chansey. It's also got both its special attack and speed at comfortable levels which allow it to run both Scarf to revenge kill or Specs to wall break effectively, and access to Calm Mind and Sub can allow it to crush Stall and get around some of its soft checks as well. Keldeo's actually kind of funny; although its movepool is actually a bit shallow, it's definitely precise enough, in conjunction with its stats, where it has everything it needs to succeed.

Honestly, aside from the relatively shallow movepool (which again, isn't that big of a deal because what it has is definitely very usable), the only real fault it has is that its ability doesn't do anything for it. So given it's effectively working with no ability, the fact that it can be S-ranked in viability is a testament to how good it really is.
 

Ace Trainer Riana

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised that Weavile is only now rising in usage and only because it beats Landorus. This is a pokemon that with just four can take out most of the metagame. With it is the best Landorus check out there due to its speed and access to ice shard, but its offensive capabilities extend far beyond that. Yes its defenses are terrible and it's ability is mostly useless but it's one of the better offensive pokemon in the game.
 

KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
Weavile's always been viable. Even in post-Aegislash XY, it was sitting at B-, early ORAS had it sitting at a solid B rank in viability, and today it's sitting at A- in viability. It's always just had issues of being high risk, high reward since it has zero defensive synergy and can't switch into anything, and all of its counters are pretty common (i.e., Keldeo, Clefable, Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, etc.). Resisting no priority outside of Ice Shard and Sucker Punch (both of which are rare), while simultaneously being maimed by some of the most common priority, does it no favors either. Still though, it can check a solid number of things, and can 2HKO a large portion of the metagame, even if it is a glass cannon. It's also good at pressuring hazard control 'mons such as Starmie and Latias, so it does fit well on offensive teams. It's got a lot worth noting so it's a solid HO Pokemon for sure.
 
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Mye

Someone has to win..
Yeah, Weavile is actually pretty fun to try if you do use it in OU (I used to have it in a "priority core" with Talonflame and choice specs lucario). One set I ran to a weirdly strange success featured swords dance, endure, ice shard, and a liechi berry. If you can set it up properly, a +3 adamant ice shard is usually gg for quite a few teams.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
I wouldn't say that Sucker Punch is rare, as Bisharp is in the top 20 when it comes to usage (especially higher on the ladder). Regardless, the Dark resist lets Weavile check Bisharp with Low Kick as long as Bisharp isn't at +2 and Stealth Rock isn't up.

On the No-Mega Ladder it's even better. The massive speed creep brought on by the Megas is gone, leaving Aerodactyl (whose main niche is being a suicide lead) as the only OU-viabe Pokemon that can outpace it, plus several checks like Mega Venusaur and Mega Diancie are gone. It also puts in work against all team styles thanks to STAB Knock Off being amazing when you can't just switch in a Mega, and the splashable "check everything" mons Lando-T and Rotom-W can't come in because of it.
 

KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say that Sucker Punch is rare, as Bisharp is in the top 20 when it comes to usage (especially higher on the ladder).

I meant more in terms of distribution, since although Bisharp is guaranteed to be carrying Sucker Punch, not much else in the tier does, as the only remotely viable other user of the move is Toxicroak.

On the No-Mega Ladder it's even better. The massive speed creep brought on by the Megas is gone, leaving Aerodactyl (whose main niche is being a suicide lead) as the only OU-viabe Pokemon that can outpace it, plus several checks like Mega Venusaur and Mega Diancie are gone. It also puts in work against all team styles thanks to STAB Knock Off being amazing when you can't just switch in a Mega, and the splashable "check everything" mons Lando-T and Rotom-W can't come in because of it.

Yeah, No-Mega is an entirely different ballgame. Knock Off is literally the most spammable thing in the tier, since even Resists hate losing their item, so there's effectively no safe switch-ins to it. Bisharp enjoys No-Mega OU just as much, since with the second strongest STAB Knock Off in the tier (although it's certainly more usable and more relevant than the strongest STAB Knock Off, Crawdaunt thank you Adaptability), it can punish even its checks. Weavile's not far behind in terms of the strength of its Knock Off either, so both certainly have no problem putting pressure on switch-ins.
 

Ace Trainer Riana

Well-Known Member
So one of my biggest concerns with Smogon's discussion of Landorus is they're acting like Landorus is the only ground type in the game. Like a flying type or a Levitator is called a "Landorus-check". People don't run like Rotom, Latias and Gliscor because they stop Landorus. They run them because they stop GROUND TYPES as in Garchomp, the other Landorus, Gliscor, Excadrill Swampert. It's just simple teambuilding that an effective team should contain: A Flying type or at least a levitator but then you have to worry about Excadrill and other Mold Breaker users, a ground type to stop volt switching and a grass type or something else with Spore immunity.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
So one of my biggest concerns with Smogon's discussion of Landorus is they're acting like Landorus is the only ground type in the game. Like a flying type or a Levitator is called a "Landorus-check". People don't run like Rotom, Latias and Gliscor because they stop Landorus. They run them because they stop GROUND TYPES as in Garchomp, the other Landorus, Gliscor, Excadrill Swampert. It's just simple teambuilding that an effective team should contain: A Flying type or at least a levitator but then you have to worry about Excadrill and other Mold Breaker users, a ground type to stop volt switching and a grass type or something else with Spore immunity.

No other ground type is as centralizing as Landorus, hence why Flying types/Levitaters may be referred to as Landorus checks. Not to mention the terminology Smogon happens to be using is completely and utterly irrelevant to whether or not Landorus should be banned, so your entire argument is a non-sequitur to begin with.

I actually haven't heard anyone refer to Flying types/Levitaters solely as "Landorus checks" unless the topic at hand was checks to Landorus, so honestly I don't even know what you're talking about. Nothing you said made any sense, even if it was true, which it apparently isn't.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
No other ground type is as centralizing as Landorus, hence why Flying types/Levitaters may be referred to as Landorus checks. Not to mention the terminology Smogon happens to be using is completely and utterly irrelevant to whether or not Landorus should be banned, so your entire argument is a non-sequitur to begin with.

I actually haven't heard anyone refer to Flying types/Levitaters solely as "Landorus checks" unless the topic at hand was checks to Landorus, so honestly I don't even know what you're talking about. Nothing you said made any sense, even if it was true, which it apparently isn't.

Pretty much this.
 
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