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OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
Not quite an OU Mega but I had a lot of fun with Aerodactyl awhile back. That huge Speed is fun and it's basically like having a revenge killer that has the typing to check stuff while letting me avoid having to Scarf something. I also don't miss Stone Edge and Tough Claws boosted coverage moves are neat. Shame it doesn't have Brave Bird (or Head Smash for crazy people like me) but we've all heard that one before.
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
Hmm, competitive section seems to have died in the past few months...


Anyways, right before my haitus Contrary Serperior was confirmed for release but hadn't actually been released yet. I remember saying that, while a far sight better than Overgrow Serp, it wouldn't have that much impact on a metagame dominated by things like Talonflame, M-Zard, and Heatran. Now that it's actually been released I can honestly say I was wrong. While Talonflame, Heatran, Scarfed U-Turners, etc. are all common threats that Serperior must watch out for, this thing has performed admirably in all tiers it's found itself in, and after actually using it and playing against it, I can definitely understand why it's found itself in OU.

For one thing, the presence of a fast Grass type sweeper is relatively unprecedented. It's somewhat similar to Chlorophyll Venusaur last generation, except Serperior is naturally fast, and of course has Contrary Leaf Storm. This is the defining factor of Serperior and what sets it apart from every other sweeper in the metagame. Everything else has to choose between either boosting its stats or launching powerful attacks. Serperior can do both. It's got a base 130 power STAB move that also acts like Nasty Plot. This ability to keep major offensive pressure while boosting its stats lets it demolish stall, bulky offense, etc. On paper this combination is just broken, and I'd say the only things that keep it from being broken in practice are Serperior's low base Special Attack stats, its lack of solid coverage, and the fact that Grass is a pretty lackluster type offensively.

Serperior also functions great in a metagame where Calm Mind users are beginning to run rampant, being an excellent shut-down to Sableye, Slowbro, etc. while not particularly fearing the burns from Will-O-Wisp and Scald like most physical attackers. These Calm Mind users will be hard pressed to both recover the damage taken from a 130 BP STAB move and deal with the increasing damage from Serperior's boosts, while Serperior largely has nothing to fear from them unless they've already accumulated a significant number of boosts.

On the downside, as I've stated before Serperior's coverage is rather appalling. Its only usable coverage moves are Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power (Usually Fire. Ground and Rock have usable niches). Depending on what Hidden Power it runs, something is going to be hard countering it. If it runs Ground or Rock, bulky Steel and Grass types like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Mega Venusaur are going to shut him down. If it runs Fire to take them out, Heatran and Talonflame are going to walk all over it. Whatever type it uses, it's not going to be doing significant damage unless it has a couple Leaf Storm boosts under its belt. No matter what it runs, Talonflame, Mega Beedrill, and other faster Pokemon or Scarf users generally aren't going to have much trouble revengekilling it, but Serperior can afford to switch out easier than most other set-up sweepers thanks to how easy it is for it to get boosts.

Anyways, I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts on Serperior in OU are now that it's actually been released for a few months. I'm sure this has been discussed but I wasn't here for the discussion so I figured I'd bring it back up.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Serperior is a really great Pokémon with the ability to break the 110 speed tier, sadly as you mentioned already he is always going to be hardwalled by something by virtue of its shallow movepool and a little ****er called cleffable wich unaware sets have been gaining a lot of popularity.

To be honest I love using Serperior in Tandem with either megagross, zard X or altaria as they compliment each other really well offensively giving a lot of offensive pressure, with that said I often run knock off and glare instead of an HP, but that is entirely situational and wouldn't recommend it unless you are already running hazard stacking HO.
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
Serperior is a really great Pokémon with the ability to break the 110 speed tier, sadly as you mentioned already he is always going to be hardwalled by something by virtue of its shallow movepool and a little ****er called cleffable wich unaware sets have been gaining a lot of popularity.
Interestingly enough...

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 208-246 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Physically defensive Unaware Clef isn't safe from the 2HKO, which is guaranteed with any prior damage.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Interestingly enough...

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 208-246 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Physically defensive Unaware Clef isn't safe from the 2HKO, which is guaranteed with any prior damage.
Spdef cleric cleffable is way more reliable, at least that's the one I use, you don't even need protect to wreck serperior with only 80 spdef investment, seen most cleffable go to 116 spdef these days but I don't really know what that number is supposed to accomplish, probably something like surviving neutral eq from bulk chomp or something like that.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
116 SpD doesn't seem to exist for Clefable, at least not enough for the stats to catch it on the higher ladder. The standard mixed set runs 84 Calm since that allows it to live Mild Kyurem-B's Ice Beam while still running enough Defense to not be 2HKO'd by stuff like Mega Lop's Return or Latios' Psyshock. Unaware usually runs max Defense since it's used on fat teams that have other things to stop Special Attackers.

Serp scares me since I like to play offense. It can snowball out of control really quickly if you don't have something like Talonflame or Thundurus to stop it.
 
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Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
116 SpD doesn't seem to exist for Clefable, at least not enough for the stats to catch it on the higher ladder. The standard mixed set runs 84 Calm since that allows it to live Mild Kyurem-B's Ice Beam while still running enough Defense to not be 2HKO'd by stuff like Mega Lop's Return or Latios' Psyshock. Unaware usually runs max Defense since it's used on fat teams that have other things to stop Special Attackers.

Serp scares me since I like to play offense. It can snowball out of control really quickly if you don't have something like Talonflame or Thundurus to stop it.
I'm aware of the calm 84 distribution, the 116 still puzzles me and honestly serperior is scary as hell if you run HO without megamanectric or klefki.
 

Hokker

Member
If I would have known every low percentage move would hit every time, I would have used much different moves in the kanto classic. Sing, sleep powder, blizzard, they never miss!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
I'm aware of the calm 84 distribution, the 116 still puzzles me and honestly serperior is scary as hell if you run HO without megamanectric or klefki.
I'm confused about why you're even concerned about an EV spread that doesn't appear to get used.

If I would have known every low percentage move would hit every time, I would have used much different moves in the kanto classic. Sing, sleep powder, blizzard, they never miss!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the OU thread. I believe you want this thread.
 

MetalSonic

Orderan' Defendan'
I'm more of an offensive type person, between Glare and Leaf Storm, Serp can be a real pain to switch into because you don't want it to be hitting too hard but dont want anything crippled. Deffo something that requires extra careful forethought, and speaking of serp, anyone have some things to say bout the subseed set? Been meanin to give it a whirl.
 

KillerDraco

The Enforcer
Staff member
Super Mod
SubSeed in general isn't quite what it used to be. Between the fact that it's absolutely useless against other Grass types, is pestered by Magic Bounce, and Substitute is no longer as safe with the advent of Sound-moves (i.e., Hyper Voice) penetrating Substitutes, it has some rather obvious flaws that hinder its effectiveness. I'd rather use one or the other rather than both on the same set; I mean, your standard Serperior is Leaf Storm / Dragon Pulse / HP Fire, with the fourth move basically being a free filler move. Substitute can help protect against revenge killing and status, while Leech Seed can be used on some a predicted switch to be a nuisance to something that is going to force Serperior out regardless. Either one has enough utility even without the other. Plus, you end up giving up valuable coverage, which can hinder Serperior's offensive output.
 
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phanpycross

God-king
Yeah, subseed has been pretty mediore for a while now. It was a really cool strat back when Choice band was the only offensive item with any bite. Gen 4 made it a lot rougher since U-turn usually pops your sub and gave your opponent momentum. Gen 5's weather wars also just kinda added to that since most teams were either: a: So offensive that you usually didnt have time to set it up, or B: forced to pack a ferrothorn to deal with those boosted Rain-attacks. Magic bounce/Magic guard(in gen 4) also became a thing.

It's kinda annoying sure, but nothing spectacular; Id recommend Sub-toxic-protect gliscor if you wanna know what it's like.
 

MetalSonic

Orderan' Defendan'
Could sworn it had it rose to popularity at some point; SubSeed Serp. Always though the Leaf Storm stuff gave it a bit more viability over over mons as a SubSeeder, I did remember seeing it around a lot, but that was prolly just people experimenting on it I suppose. It sort of just messed with counters and stuff, suppose.

Who are ya'll lookin forward to usin the most when the new gen rolls around? Dont a lot of things go unbanned at the beginning? Or am I mistaken?
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
Could sworn it had it rose to popularity at some point; SubSeed Serp. Always though the Leaf Storm stuff gave it a bit more viability over over mons as a SubSeeder, I did remember seeing it around a lot, but that was prolly just people experimenting on it I suppose. It sort of just messed with counters and stuff, suppose.

Who are ya'll lookin forward to usin the most when the new gen rolls around? Dont a lot of things go unbanned at the beginning? Or am I mistaken?

Maybe when Serp was in RU, but in OU it really doesn't. Its usual checks (Talon, Heatran, M-Bee, Venusaur, etc) usually give no shits about SubSeed.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
He shits on stall, but honestly I consider Manaphy a bigger issue, this guy is just B-Kyurem in steroids.

I guess him being banned wouldn't surprise me but I'm not going on this ladder.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
Currently lack any opinion either way due to my lack of experience against it combined with my recent nonexistent playing.
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
Hmm dudes, im startin to think Hoopers gonna get banned.
Maybe it's an april fools joke!
You're an april fools joke ;)

Hoopa-U is basically a slower, bulkier Greninja in my eyes. He does the exact same thing; **** all over stall. I've never liked stall. I find that stall isn't fun to play with or against. But I don't think it should be made completely non-viable by a single Pokemon.

All in all, I definitely think Hoopa-U needs to go. His low Defence and Speed just isn't enough to stop him from being the most broken thing in the tier, and saying "it's weak to u-turn lel" is just a nice way of admitting you have no idea how to play competitive Pokemon. This thing isn't a sweeper by any means. It doesn't mind switching out one little bit, and it's not going to be coming in on things with U-Turn anyways. It'll be coming in on things that can't threaten it and firing off attacks that nothing can switch into. It doesn't matter if U-Turn forces it out, once it manages to get in safely something is going to die, and it just becomes a question of what you're willing to sacrifice to try and stop it. Any Pokemon like that just needs to go in my opinion. Sticking Hoopa-U on your team is basically guaranteeing at least 1 KO, since just about nothing is completely safe from this thing.
 
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