OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[MetalSonic]

You're an april fools joke

Hoopa-U is basically a slower, bulkier Greninja in my eyes. He does the exact same thing; **** all over stall. I've never liked stall. I find that stall isn't fun to play with or against. But I don't think it should be made completely non-viable by a single Pokemon.

All in all, I definitely think Hoopa-U needs to go. His low Defence and Speed just isn't enough to stop him from being the most broken thing in the tier, and saying "it's weak to u-turn lel" is just a nice way of admitting you have no idea how to play competitive Pokemon. This thing isn't a sweeper by any means. It doesn't mind switching out one little bit, and it's not going to be coming in on things with U-Turn anyways. It'll be coming in on things that can't threaten it and firing off attacks that nothing can switch into. It doesn't matter if U-Turn forces it out, once it manages to get in safely something is going to die, and it just becomes a question of what you're willing to sacrifice to try and stop it. Any Pokemon like that just needs to go in my opinion. Sticking Hoopa-U on your team is basically guaranteeing at least 1 KO, since just about nothing is completely safe from this thing.

what the h*ck did u say....

It's good you see this hoopa thingy from an all-encompassing perspective rather than the view that some stallhaters/HObros would prefer to be vocal about.

Hoopa may be very good to help rid of the stall menace but as is the case with most viable things that can threaten an entire playstyle and yknow, have the the stats to just overwhelm entire teams on its own merit, it may just have to go.
No offense to stall players.
haha get it

Isn't it funny though how we almost banned Mega-Metagross? Im gonna miss Hoopa-U. At the very least, it was fun!

 

[Divine Retribution]

If you take a look at the 6th generation in general and the insane power creep it brought (along with things like Mega Kanga, Mega Mence, Aegislash, Mega Gengar, Greninja, Talonflame, and now Hoopa-U) you could easily draw the conclusion that GameFreak doesn't actually want stall to be a viable playstyle. Offensive teams got a truckload of stupidly powerful threats and Mega Evolutions that hold their own in Ubers, while what did stall get? Mega Sableye?

On the other hand GameFreak doesn't actually control the metagame besides VGC, and VGC is a terrible game format.

 

[EKZ1505]

On the other hand GameFreak doesn't actually control the metagame besides VGC, and VGC is a terrible game format.

I'm sure you knew this and just misspoke but it isn't GameFreak that (directly) sets the rules for VGC.
And while you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, I don't think you even really know much about the current VGC format (based on advice I've seen you give for it). I'm not trying to direct this into an argument over better format, because, again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least give the format a legitimate try before you put it down!

(Aegislash actually was a great stall Pokemon in VGC 2015 too!)

To actually contribute to this discussion, I do agree about the power creep, but I can see it being tough to really add to stall when mega evolutions gain 100 points to their BST, unless they add all those points to either defensive stat or give the new mega a defensive ability (and it hurts some potential defensive megas that the HP can't be increased). Even then, it can hurt if that new mega didn't already have a form of recovery in its moveset, since it can't hold Leftovers as a mega.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I'm sure you knew this and just misspoke but it isn't GameFreak that (directly) sets the rules for VGC.
And while you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, I don't think you even really know much about the current VGC format (based on advice I've seen you give for it). I'm not trying to direct this into an argument over better format, because, again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least give the format a legitimate try before you put it down!

(Aegislash actually was a great stall Pokemon in VGC 2015 too!)

To actually contribute to this discussion, I do agree about the power creep, but I can see it being tough to really add to stall when mega evolutions gain 100 points to their BST, unless they add all those points to either defensive stat or give the new mega a defensive ability (and it hurts some potential defensive megas that the HP can't be increased). Even then, it can hurt if that new mega didn't already have a form of recovery in its moveset, since it can't hold Leftovers as a mega.

Yeah I admit I know very little about VGC. I don't really have an excuse for the Arceus comment though, since I know that VGC bans events from all its tournaments. Not really sure what I was thinking. I also have an annoying habit of mixing Gamefreak and Nintendo up...

In my eyes VGC is an inherently unbalanced tier because the rules are completely arbitrary. Pokemon are banned not because they're broken, but because they're relegated to events. The one or two times I've ventured into VGC I've seen it rife with Mega Sala, Mega Kanga, and various other things that are just unjustifiably broken. I get it's a different metagame, but when Pokemon aren't banned because of usage or their impact on the metagame's health, and are instead banned on their status as events, it seems to me like that unavoidably unbalances the metagame.


As for stall Megas, Mega Sableye is proof that it can be done. The lack of an item, however, is what makes it really difficult. Mega Aggron, a Pokemon that looks great for stall and bulky offense on paper, is severely hindered by his lack of recovery, making him very easy to wear down. GameFreak needs to either introduce more instant recovery moves (imagine if there was a Steel clone of Roost with a half decent distribution?) or choose some Megas that can already hold their own without Leftovers recovery. Ferrothorn is a good example of this, and I sincerely hope Ferro gets a Mega at some point. Ferrothorn is already known to give up his Leftovers recovery in favour of a Rocky Helmet, and he's already a staple on most stall teams due to his titanic bulk and unique typing. I wouldn't mind giving up Leftovers recovery on Ferro in exchange for some boosted defensive stats.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

I beg to differ with ferrothorn being a stall staple, he is a balance staple.

Stall prefers amongus any day of the week due to a better synergy and ability to sponge scalds better.

 

[Alatar VGC]

Yeah I admit I know very little about VGC.

In my eyes VGC is an inherently unbalanced tier because the rules are completely arbitrary. Pokemon are banned not because they're broken, but because they're relegated to events. The one or two times I've ventured into VGC I've seen it rife with Mega Sala, Mega Kanga, and various other things that are just unjustifiably broken. I get it's a different metagame, but when Pokemon aren't banned because of usage or their impact on the metagame's health, and are instead banned on their status as events, it seems to me like that unavoidably unbalances the metagame.

I respect your opinion. While I agree banning legends based on availability is actually a not so good enough excuse (IMO) to warrant their ban.

With all due respect. Your looking at these megas through a singles eyes. They are much easier to handle in a doubles format. They are not as broken (IMO). Ok maybe Mega K is a little. However skilled players can easily circumvent it.
The problem is (and IMO this applies to ALL competitive Pokemon regardless of the format) that people think that they can only win with the most "OP" or "broken" megas/mons. This is not true. It's easy to throw them all together and expect to win. However once you reach a certain level in battlespot (Just like PS I should imagine) is your facing higher skilled players who can easily show you that Mega Mence spamming Hyper Voice/Mega K are not always the best options.

Lastly. I dislike how Smogon bans things. However I look at it through a doubles eyes and I do admit things are harder to stop in singles.

However. Please do not say that VGC is a "Terrible Format". It isn't. Even if that's your opinion please be a bit more respectful in the way you make such sweeping statements.

However, I apologise for my rambling on VGC in an OU thread.

It does seem that stall doesn't get an easy time. However hopefully that changes in the future. For the players who enjoy playing that way.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Lastly. I dislike how Smogon bans things. However I look at it through a doubles eyes and I do admit things are harder to stop in singles.

However. Please do not say that VGC is a "Terrible Format". It isn't. Even if that's your opinion please be a bit more respectful in the way you make such sweeping statements.
.

Terrible might be a bit hyperbolic but this is the internet after all. Besides, maybe it is my opinion that VGC is a terrible tier? Would I not be allowed to state my opinion if that were the case? I never said the people who play it are terrible people or anything like that.

Either way that's an aside.

I have to say I am dissatisfied with a lot of Smogon's recent bans, especially in regards to Baton Pass. Full Baton Pass chains were already a strategy that relied on a ridiculous amount of luck (your opponent gets one solid crit and it's game over) and were not really all that hard to stop. Why the first limitation on Baton Pass was put into place is beyond me. After that they further limited Baton Pass from 2 users per team to 1 user per team, which was pretty much beating a dead horse in my eyes.

But that wasn't enough. They had to take it a step further and ban passing Speed boosts alongside other boosts. I hear this was in response to SpeedPass and SmashPassers like Scolipede and Smeargle.

This is indefensibly stupid. SmashPassers and Speed Boost users have NO offensive capabilities on their own (you can run Megahorn or something on Scolipede but to do so you'd have to drop Substitute, making it harder to set up and making the pass less secure.) so you're essentially running 5 Pokemon in order to give a boost to something that is otherwise incapable of boosting its stats. This is as fair a trade-off as you can get. As for Smash Passers... Well in OU SmashPasser is practically synonymous with Smeargle. It's extremely easy to stop Smeargle from passing, and anyone who can't stop a SmashPass Smeargle honestly deserves to get swept by a +2 Kyurem-B or something. Breloom stands to destroy everything Smeargle is, being immune to Spore and able to dispose of it with Bullet Seed or Mach Punch. Anything faster with Taunt is a complete shutdown. Anything faster with Substitute is a complete shutdown. Anything with multi-hit moves is a complete shutdown. Anything with priority is a complete shutdown. Any Scarf users that can outspeed it after the Smash are complete shutdowns. Anything with a hazing/phazing move is a complete shutdown. The list goes on and on and on. On top of that, if Smeargle actually does manage the pass, it's easier to handle boosted threats than ever with Unaware Clefable being actually viable this generation.

If your team doesn't have a single one of these things to begin with, it's not OU viable anyways. I've seen a lot of stupid **** in my time playing competitive Pokemon, and I've been swept by some of that stupid ****. Not once have I ever lost a game due to a SmashPass user. Not once ever in the thousands of battles I've participated in. SpeedPass Scolipede is a bit different thanks to its more respectable stats but in its own right is completely hindered by its lack of Taunt, Magic Coat, Spore, and other utilities that Smeargle can carry, making it completely susceptible to Taunt and phazing. On top of that, if SpeedPass was really the problem you could simply ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass. And before you say something stupid like "smogon doesnt do complex bans lol" remember that banning passing Speed boosts with other boosts is a complex ban.

Point in case, decent teams don't have problems with SmashPass and SpeedPass. I don't care what the whiners on the OU council say. Rant over.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

You severely missed the Dennis Era of abuse, 1 batton Passer and gothitrap was more than enough to get an advantage over the entire ladder and win at turn 4 unless you ran CB azumarrill plus CB Talonflame at the same time.

And no, decent teams where trampled over unless they overprepared, memento, u turn, explosion into gothitrap or geo pass was more than enough to end a game. Especially with magic bounce Stallbreaker Talonflame memento whimsicott and the likes of a elf and gothitrap where part of the equation.

Don't try to make cleffable an all time fix for BP, stored power at +6 is ohko material with stabbed on standard defensive cleffable, if you panic on it a quick BP into literally Satan gothitelle destroyed the only fix some teams had unless they wanted to gamble their scarfer on memento whimsicott, and unless you ran something stupid like lum berry Gengar/Bisharp not many Pokémon enjoyed that core.

Batton pass was a machine not a playstyle.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't remember Goth being used on those teams, just that the 1 Mon Baton Pass support train boiled down to "make the same plays every game and win". It was incredibly dumb and needed to go.

 

[Divine Retribution]

You severely missed the Dennis Era of abuse, 1 batton Passer and gothitrap was more than enough to get an advantage over the entire ladder and win at turn 4 unless you ran CB azumarrill plus CB Talonflame at the same time.

And no, decent teams where trampled over unless they overprepared, memento, u turn, explosion into gothitrap or geo pass was more than enough to end a game. Especially with magic bounce Stallbreaker Talonflame memento whimsicott and the likes of a elf and gothitrap where part of the equation.

Don't try to make cleffable an all time fix for BP, stored power at +6 is ohko material with stabbed on standard defensive cleffable, if you panic on it a quick BP into literally Satan gothitelle destroyed the only fix some teams had unless they wanted to gamble their scarfer on memento whimsicott, and unless you ran something stupid like lum berry Gengar/Bisharp not many Pokémon enjoyed that core.

Batton pass was a machine not a playstyle.

Shadow Tag's ban pretty much fixed this problem. Hoopa-U could potentially have been used over Talonflame to stop stall from utterly shutting you down but with Hoopa-U's ban looming overhead I honestly can't see this playstyle being even remotely a problem anymore, especially with such a key piece, Gothitelle, having gotten the axe a while ago. Talonflame is pretty good at breaking stall but it's not Hoopa-U. It's going to have trouble 6-0ing stall teams by itself.

On top of that offensive teams can apply pressure to try and stop Smeargle from passing. I guess Memento kind of shits on offensive teams though.

I don't remember Goth being used on those teams, just that the 1 Mon Baton Pass support train boiled down to "make the same plays every game and win". It was incredibly dumb and needed to go.

I don't even understand this to be honest. Having both used and played against BP Chains I struggle to see them as anything other than a gimmick. An untimely crit and it's game over. If your opponent manages to Taunt its game over. If they phaze you before you get Ingrain up its game over. If they're carrying anything with Haze or Clear Smog (granted most teams don't, although I understand Clear Smog users like Amoonguss saw some niche use in the BP era) it's game over. Stored Power is a brutal move but it requires a LOT of set-up, which gives your opponent a lot of opportunity to score a crit or try and phase you out unless you're camping Espeon the whole match.

Either way this is justification for the first Baton Pass ban, not the ones that came after it.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

The problem wasn't only BP chains.

Of course a 3 man BP was strong already, but when stuff like prankster memento, Stallbreaker, Talonflame and goth get factored in be either offense or stall they pretty much have to go over the way to stop a proper geo pass.

RNG aside this thing only needed to force a free turn for smeargle or break a defensive core with Goth to end the game when played aggressively.

 

[Djura]

Hoopa Unbound banned from OU with a 61.24% majority.

long live stall etc

 

[Divine Retribution]

Hoopa Unbound banned from OU with a 61.24% majority.

long live stall etc

Honestly I was expecting a larger majority than that.

Oh well, it's banned nonetheless.

 

[Aduro]

So Volcanion is in OU now, I tried a set this morning and it was fun to use. Crazy powerful but a bit too slow. At first I tried a flame charge physical set but it didn't work without physical water STAB so I tried a naive flame charge mixed sweeper, but that didn't have much to switch into. Tomorrow I'm thinking scarf late-game sweeper. It seemed to partner well with Zard Y and assault vest conkeldurr.

 

[Karxrida]

Volcanion is honestly better off just murdering things with Specs and Life Orb. It still gets revenged by Mega Manectric and faster Scarfers since Base 70 Speed is kind of "meh", plus being able to spam strong Steam Eruptions is honestly too good to pass up.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Volcanion is just nearly impossible to switch into. I'm honestly afraid the metagame is pretty much going to become Volcanion / Serperior / Blob breaker. I mean, the only things that even want to think about switching into Volcanion are just set-up bait for Serperior so that combo alone pretty much breaks the metagame. I've been messing around with a Volcanion / Serperior / Mega Medicham HO team for a few days now. This thing is a godsend for Hyper Offense teams but I'm worried it's just too centralizing. Whoever thought combining Hydro Pump and Scald and then raising the accuracy was a good idea needs to be fired. Scald is already a hard move to switch into, now you've made it so a vast majority of the metagame can be 2HKO'd by it.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

Volcanion is just nearly impossible to switch into. I'm honestly afraid the metagame is pretty much going to become Volcanion / Serperior / Blob breaker. I mean, the only things that even want to think about switching into Volcanion are just set-up bait for Serperior so that combo alone pretty much breaks the metagame. I've been messing around with a Volcanion / Serperior / Mega Medicham HO team for a few days now. This thing is a godsend for Hyper Offense teams but I'm worried it's just too centralizing. Whoever thought combining Hydro Pump and Scald and then raising the accuracy was a good idea needs to be fired. Scald is already a hard move to switch into, now you've made it so a vast majority of the metagame can be 2HKO'd by it.

Welp I'm more afraid of volcanion+solartran, but you got a point with serperior and medicham. There are absolutely no switch ins for that thing other than lum berry gyarados and mega latias in the double switch and it can break them with relative ease with chip damage.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Welp I'm more afraid of volcanion+solartran, but you got a point with serperior and medicham. There are absolutely no switch ins for that thing other than lum berry gyarados and mega latias in the double switch and it can break them with relative ease with chip damage.

Volcanion + SolarTran isn't really a problem. For one they're both utterly demolished by EQ spam. Landorus-T, Excadrill, etc., but also Sunny Day also makes Steam Eruption significantly easier to switch into. SolarTran kind of sort of checks the things that can check Volcanion but not really. Gyarados breaks them both assuming it can get in without getting burned, CroCune breaks them if it gets a Calm Mind up before Tran sets up Sunny Day, etc. Serperior on the other hand steamrolls Water Absorb users and can even break Chansey if it comes down to a 1v1.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Volcanion + SolarTran isn't really a problem. For one they're both utterly demolished by EQ spam. Landorus-T, Excadrill, etc., but also Sunny Day also makes Steam Eruption significantly easier to switch into. SolarTran kind of sort of checks the things that can check Volcanion but not really. Gyarados breaks them both assuming it can get in without getting burned, CroCune breaks them if it gets a Calm Mind up before Tran sets up Sunny Day, etc. Serperior on the other hand steamrolls Water Absorb users and can even break Chansey if it comes down to a 1v1.

The Heatran set in question actually uses Magma Storm and Taunt alongside Solar Beam with the Power Herb rather than Sunny Day. It's the lure aspect of the set that makes it so effective. It's designed to trap incoming bulky Waters with Magma Storm and beat them with the combination of Taunt and Solar Beam.

Serperior is a good partner in terms of general synergy. Chansey can be a jerk, but running Taunt on Serperior or LO Superpower on Volcanion can help alleviate that (I prefer the former). It's different from Heatran, though, because no one is going to leave their bulky Water in on a Serperior, whereas Heatran can use the element of surprise to his advantage to lure and dispose of those checks more effectively.

Alternatively, you could run Power Herb Solarbeam on Volcanion instead and just team him up with anything else that wants bulky Waters gone.

I've also heard a lot of praise given to a Volcanion + Mega Sableye core, which makes sense. Volcanion can check some of the Fairies that give Mega Sableye a hard time, whereas Mega Sableye does a generally good job of keeping Stealth Rock off the field, which helps Volcanion.

 

[Divine Retribution]

The Heatran set in question actually uses Magma Storm and Taunt alongside Solar Beam with the Power Herb rather than Sunny Day. It's the lure aspect of the set that makes it so effective. It's designed to trap incoming bulky Waters with Magma Storm and beat them with the combination of Taunt and Solar Beam.

Serperior is a good partner in terms of general synergy. Chansey can be a jerk, but running Taunt on Serperior or LO Superpower on Volcanion can help alleviate that (I prefer the former). It's different from Heatran, though, because no one is going to leave their bulky Water in on a Serperior, whereas Heatran can use the element of surprise to his advantage to lure and dispose of those checks more effectively.

Alternatively, you could run Power Herb Solarbeam on Volcanion instead and just team him up with anything else that wants bulky Waters gone.

I've also heard a lot of praise given to a Volcanion + Mega Sableye core, which makes sense. Volcanion can check some of the Fairies that give Mega Sableye a hard time, whereas Mega Sableye does a generally good job of keeping Stealth Rock off the field, which helps Volcanion.

Well that's the thing is that Trapper Tran is so anti meta. If it ever became standard it would completely lose its effectiveness because nobody would keep their bulky Waters in on it anymore. It's significantly easier to play around it if you know there's a decent chance your opponent is running it. It would completely lose its surprise factor.