Ace Trainer Riana
Well-Known Member
Aqua Jet users can't switch into Typhlosion, except for Assault Vest Azumarrill. Even Kabutops loses up to three quarters of its health.
-
Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.
However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.
We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure. -
Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Ragnarok
- Start date
Mr. Reloaded
Cause a pirate is free
Typhlosion won't be better than Feraligatar not at all. Neither one will necessarily work in this tier but in no way is Typhlosion gonna be than Gator.
Under flash fire though, and at full HP (which would require extensive team support to be able to do so). While flash fire and eruption give it a pretty good move, the chances of actually managing to get it done successfully are incredibly slim as just one hit from rocks or sticky web essentially ruins it, paralysis and poison ruin it (making more things outspeed it, and ruining eruption's power each turn respectively), and its lack of decent coverage moves/average-for-ou special attack stat ruin it as an OU pokemon (it only really has focus blast/eruption/hidden power/flamethrower/fire blast as "usable" special moves). One extremely powerful move doesn't always make a pokemon competitive worthy (serperior is the only thing I recall being "bumped up" because of this case). In typhlosion's case, it remains a heavily outclassed fire type with average speed/special attack and only eruption preventing it from being in the depths of NU/PU.
Lord Fighting
Bank Ball Collector
Barring gyarados I'm pretty sure extrasensory doesn't hit anything noteworthy that the other two'd hit for harder.
Rocxidi
The Jim Reaper
Wow, I can't even comprehend why anyone would even consider that Typhlosion could be better than Feraligatr. Seeing Typhlosion in Team Preview automatically means your opponent will watch their use of fire spam. Basically it's still the same Pokemon unless you manage to pull off an Encore + Infestation on a fire attack. Feraligatr on the other hand just needs a turn to use Dragon Dance. With two weaknesses (one isn't even relevant), a few resistances, and 85 / 100 / 83 defenses (which is pretty good), it can do so easily. 105 Attack is pretty good combined with Life Orb + Sheer Force, and 78 Speed puts it at a decent speed tier at +1.
An interesting thing to note is that it is able to OHKO Jolly Azumarill with Iron Tail and has a decent chance to KO 252 HP Azu, both with Stealth Rocks into play.
An interesting thing to note is that it is able to OHKO Jolly Azumarill with Iron Tail and has a decent chance to KO 252 HP Azu, both with Stealth Rocks into play.
KillerDraco
Well-Known Member
You'd be wrong.
Flash Fire on Typhlosion is a definite improvement over Blaze, but it's far more situational than, oh say, Sheer Force on Feraligatr. Whereas Ferligatr always gets the benefits of Sheer Force on the moves that it affects (in addition to the added benefit of recoil-free Life Orb on those moves), Typhlosion first has to switch into a fire attack to activate Flash Fire, which, as Dircio mentioned, is made a bit harder by Team Preview, and when it doesn't get that Flash Fire boost, you're essentially using the same Pokemon as before. There's also the stealth rock weakness to consider; Eruption looks great on paper due to its 150 base power at full health, but a single time taking damage from stealth rock reduces its power to base 112-114, which is only marginally (and insignificantly) better than Fire Blast.
Feraligatr, on the other hand, is getting the effects of Sheer Force at all times. It makes a powerful wallbreaker with four attacks or a SD set (which absolutely punishes slower defensive teams, i.e., stall), and can sweep pretty handily with DD as well. None of its stats may be overwhelmingly high on their own, but it's got a decent mix of bulk and power, and has the movepool to back it up. Sheer Force finally gives its offenses the spark they need to make it dangerous. It still has competition from Gyarados, sure, but Sheer Force gives it a niche.
Either way, I would expect both to rise out of NU. They're already top tier in NU, and I could see Feraligatr being quickbanned from NU in a hurry, much like Serperior was.
Last edited:
Feraligatr is the physical version of Serperior, it's a niche mon but it's going to be very powerful and with a solid core around it it's totally a big threat. Typhlosion really isn't going to be good in OU, it's ability relies on it switching in which doesn't make it effective to me unless as a gimmick to use for fun but in the lower tiers it will make a nice impact.
saPower1000
FLIP ALL THE TABLES
Since there is no Doubles thread that I could find:
Typhloshion is generally better in Doubles with FF (based on theory testing), Feraligatr in singles with SF (based on theory testing), Simply because you can run Scarf Lava Plume Heatran and Eruption Typhloshion and just obliterate everything that doesn't resist it (assuming you set up properly). Great for softening of early game threats, and can bait in Flash Fire users, which could then get smacked with a EP from Heatran if you predict ahead. Can keep the setup for late game too.
Typhloshion is generally better in Doubles with FF (based on theory testing), Feraligatr in singles with SF (based on theory testing), Simply because you can run Scarf Lava Plume Heatran and Eruption Typhloshion and just obliterate everything that doesn't resist it (assuming you set up properly). Great for softening of early game threats, and can bait in Flash Fire users, which could then get smacked with a EP from Heatran if you predict ahead. Can keep the setup for late game too.
KillerDraco
Well-Known Member
A shared Earthquake weakness in format where Earthquake is very common kinda throws a wrench in that plan, since you're basically banking on Lava Plume's 30% chance to burn to save you. And even then Heatran's probably going to die even with the burn, since stronger Earthquakes like those from Garchomp can still 1HKO even when it's burned.
There's also the fact that priority against Typhlosion rapidly neuters Eruption's power, and things like Fake Out and Talonflame in general are pretty common.
Whether or not Typhlosion is better in doubles than Feraligatr is largely inconsequential since the bigger issue is the fact that Typhlosion is, in and of itself, not fantastic in doubles. What you're basically describing is TerraCott 2.0.
saPower1000
FLIP ALL THE TABLES
The main reason I even compared Feraligater to Typhlosion was because I was getting at the fact that some Pokemon are just better than others in Singles, while not as great in Doubles.
Also, I'm not banking on the burn at all. Lava Plume is meant to activate Flash Fire on the partner Pokemon while still dealing damage to BOTH opponents, not burn things, although a burn if gotten is nice. Again, I also mentioned that it can be used at the beginning of a match if the checks are non existent or outsped by the scarf user, and if a obvious user of priority is in the Team Preview (most importantly, fake out) you wouldn't want to lead with this. It's a strategy meant to be used when the things that check/counter it are out of the way, or not on the opposing team, hence why I said "assuming you set up properly" and that you "can keep the setup for late game too". I'm well aware of EQ's presence in all tiers. That being said, Typhlosion also gets Heat Wave and Lava Plume itself, so it doesn't necessarily have to run Eruption either. Feraligatr isn't even a pokemon you would normally consider for a Doubles Team, as it's forced to rely on partner protection to boost and then break through things. This is not so with Typhlosion, whom even without Flash Fire, has a use (if only one) in Doubles.
Not to get off topic from OU singles, but it works much better in Triple battles with Sun support (based on theory testing). Like you said, Priority is an issue, but Priority is an issue for practically every Pokemon in the game. It's something you will always have to be prepared for, as well as play around. Fake Out is one of the worst, as if they don't have a re-directer, Quick Guard or Wide Guard user handy (if it's a spread move), forcing a Pokemon to lose a turn is a hard punishment, especially if they end up getting smacked by something Super Effective.
That aside, it's much different that TerraCott. Whimsicott has to use up a turn only boosting Terrakion's attack, and the attack is hitting on the physical side and is not 100% Accurate. That, and though small, you are dealing damage with the move (it might SEEM negligible, but damage is damage). Pokemon like Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill are threats to both TerraCott and HeatPhlosion, but besides the shared problem to ground attacks (in terms of Heatran, Typhloshion and Terrakion) nothing else is really the same. Plus, with the Lava Plume set, you aren't forced to use up a turn boosting your partner, as they get it indirectly from Lava Plume and you don't deal unnecessary damage to the partner Pokemon. That, and it hits on the Special Side. If anything, this is more comparable to the Surf + Water Absorb/Storm Drain and Discharge + Lighting Rod and Volt Absorb Setups.
I'm not saying that this setup will be super amazing, since it's that kind of "works well if they are unprepared, not so much if they are" (which, in my original post, probably looks like that's what I meant, which I didn't), but then again, TR follows that same concept. I've used Double and Triple teams that utilize ghost type TR users to avoid Fake Out, and in Triples case, I put it to the far left or right so that it has less of a chance fainting while setting up. Obviously you have to worry about Pokemon that counter TR with their own, or are also TR, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
It'll be fun to actually practice it either way once I can get one and actual test it, but there is always going to be a flaw to a setup that a team can exploit. That's why you have to chose when you go in, and when you hold back (lol event Pokemon with this move).
Note: by theory testing, I mean that I actually calc the stuff (just in case it wasn't obvious to some) to get and idea of if a strategy is even viable.
That being said, I'm interested to see how long Terakkion and Salamence will remain in UU.
KillerDraco
Well-Known Member
I will keep this brief, since Doubles is sort of a gray area. I mean, technically Smogon Doubles is a tier and could be considered Doubles OU, but eh.
I think you misunderstood. Using Lava Plume to activate Flash Fire was obvious; banking on a burn refers to the fact that an Earthquake from, oh say, Garchomp mutilates both Pokemon outright with a single Earthquake, and if you're relying on ScarfTran to get the party started, that 30% chance to burn is the only thing that's standing in most EQ users' way of dismantling the core outright.
This applies to every Pokemon and every strategy. By the same logic, you can assume they'll save a fast Earthquake user to dismantle the core at the precise moment.
It really should be hesitant to use Eruption at all in Doubles, given how easily neutered it is. It's a big nuke, sure, but there's a lot of big nukes that get used in Doubles that are far less easily crippled.
Actually it's more a matter that Gyarados outclasses Feraligatr in Doubles thanks to Intimidate. Though to be fair, neither Typhlosion nor Ferligatr are terribly good in doubles, although I would point out that Sheer Force does help Feraliatr hit decently hard even without a boost. It's certainly not enough to make you instantly consider it on a Doubles team, but Feraligatr's benefits from its new HA are universally applicable.
I would go so far as to say Typhlosion suffers more from priority than other Pokemon if it's opting to use Eruption, due to the fact that Eruption's damage decreases as it takes damage, so priority can really take a chunk out of its damage output.
You're being far too literal. They're exactly the same in basic concept, and that basic concept is "Pokemon 1 uses an attack to activate Pokemon 2's ability to power it up". Besides, if we're being completely literal, your own Storm Drain and Lightning Rod analogies don't work, because their effects of "drawing attacks" means that no other Pokemon are affected, including opponents.
But that's just it; why would you want to use something that MIGHT work some of the time, when there are so many Doubles strategies that are more universally applicable?
And it can be discussed here.
The underlying point though is that Typhlosion is still pretty bad and doesn't have any real shot of making it in OU, regardless of whether it's singles or doubles. Thanks to its newfound power, Feraligatr certainly does have a chance though. It probably won't be taking OU by storm, but it at least becomes usable in OU thanks to the raw power of Sheer Force Life Orb'ed attacks providing it with a solid niche as either a wallbreaker or a sweeper, depending on what it runs.
I think you misunderstood. Using Lava Plume to activate Flash Fire was obvious; banking on a burn refers to the fact that an Earthquake from, oh say, Garchomp mutilates both Pokemon outright with a single Earthquake, and if you're relying on ScarfTran to get the party started, that 30% chance to burn is the only thing that's standing in most EQ users' way of dismantling the core outright.
This applies to every Pokemon and every strategy. By the same logic, you can assume they'll save a fast Earthquake user to dismantle the core at the precise moment.
It really should be hesitant to use Eruption at all in Doubles, given how easily neutered it is. It's a big nuke, sure, but there's a lot of big nukes that get used in Doubles that are far less easily crippled.
Actually it's more a matter that Gyarados outclasses Feraligatr in Doubles thanks to Intimidate. Though to be fair, neither Typhlosion nor Ferligatr are terribly good in doubles, although I would point out that Sheer Force does help Feraliatr hit decently hard even without a boost. It's certainly not enough to make you instantly consider it on a Doubles team, but Feraligatr's benefits from its new HA are universally applicable.
I would go so far as to say Typhlosion suffers more from priority than other Pokemon if it's opting to use Eruption, due to the fact that Eruption's damage decreases as it takes damage, so priority can really take a chunk out of its damage output.
You're being far too literal. They're exactly the same in basic concept, and that basic concept is "Pokemon 1 uses an attack to activate Pokemon 2's ability to power it up". Besides, if we're being completely literal, your own Storm Drain and Lightning Rod analogies don't work, because their effects of "drawing attacks" means that no other Pokemon are affected, including opponents.
But that's just it; why would you want to use something that MIGHT work some of the time, when there are so many Doubles strategies that are more universally applicable?
And it can be discussed here.
The underlying point though is that Typhlosion is still pretty bad and doesn't have any real shot of making it in OU, regardless of whether it's singles or doubles. Thanks to its newfound power, Feraligatr certainly does have a chance though. It probably won't be taking OU by storm, but it at least becomes usable in OU thanks to the raw power of Sheer Force Life Orb'ed attacks providing it with a solid niche as either a wallbreaker or a sweeper, depending on what it runs.
Last edited:
saPower1000
FLIP ALL THE TABLES
That's true, like I admitted to. I'm fully aware EQ breaks the Setup, which again is why I said "assuming you set up properly" and that you "can keep the setup for late game too".
I'm quite sure a lot of setups are ruined by EQ, and the same thing applies to them, also including the fast EQ check you were mentioning (like Scarf Excadrill and Scarf Lando-T or just something like Garchomp). I know Heatran will faint to anything with a respectable amount of power that has a ground move as well. But again, I'm not banking on burn to survive; in fact, I'm not even attempting to bank on burn at all. Ever. If I get it, that's nice, but again, there are going to be six pokemon on that team. If I feel that I'll be in a bad spot leading with them, I won't do it. And each one cane work on their own in the team. Typhlosion wouldn't just be there for Heatran and vice versa. It would rely upon the other partners in the team to help get them set up.
Exactly. My point here was to show that every strategy has it's pros and cons. Those are cons of the set that a player would have to use other Pokemon in the team to work around. Sun teams are generally weak to Ground and Fire, but that's something the other Pokemon you have in the team (besides the main weather core) are for. That sort of thing.
You are right that it should be. Moves Like Eruption and WaterSpout are generally better in Singles because there are less chances of having the power dropped (by this, I mean chances for attack to land on it in that turn) so I agree with that. However, though weaker, double Lava Plume can be quite effective on teams that can't handle it. It can also be horrible as well.
I think that I was being a bit understood when comparing the two. I wasn't trying to say that because "Feraligatr is outclassed, use a Typhlosion with xyz to make it OP" or something along those lines. I do know that Sheer Force allows for instant pressure, and that Feraligater has access to one of the best Physical boosting moves in the form of DD. But besides the moves that it gets with Sheer Force, there are many pokemon that have access to the same or better moves, and can apply just as much pressure without needing to DD (78 base speed is not fast, and almost demands support of some kind to setup).
I agree that Priority is the main problem to using Eruption. On the contrary, Special Heatrans can run Eruption as well (Oblivia iirc) which can then mean you can give a scarf to Typhlosion, and have Heatran run a Air Balloon instead. I doubt that's as viable, but you could run Heatran in TR with Eruption (I believe Oblivia Heatran is Quiet nature), and set up TR and then use a Typhlosion holding an Iron Ball with a negative nature, which is definitely niche, but useable. Plus, if push comes to shove, you can run something like Clawitzer with Heal Pulse as a support pokemon, or even something like M-Audino with Flamethrower and Heal Pulse to get the same effect (albeit harder to pull off). it doesn't necessarily have to be Heatran and Typhlosion, but the problem with priority does still stand. I'll have to look into some quick guard users.
"Pokemon 1 uses an attack to activate Pokemon 2's ability to power it up" is different from "Pokemon 1 uses an attack to activate Pokemon 2's ability to power it up while also damaging foes". I wasn't being too literal, I was pointing out the actual differences. Storm Drain and Lighting Rod do work under the conditions I specified, which were Surf/Discharge respectively. That's the comparison I was making: "Pokemon 1 uses an attack to activate Pokemon 2's ability to power it up while also damaging foes". It's a different strategy with similarities, but they aren't exactly the same in the basic concept. If they were, there would be no reason for people to use Discharge and Surf in those conditions
All sets fall under the pretense of "MIGHT work". Otherwise, there would be one universal team and no need for innovations. This strategy does not work well on Faster Pokemon with EQ (and in general), Pokemon with Flash Fire, Pokemon that Wall it and Trick Room to name a few. Sandstorm Teams do not work well against, Water and Grass types in general, Faster Fighting types, in some cases Steel Types, Teams that change the weather as well if they are slower (to get their weather up), or Teams built to not care too much about weather. So as you can see, each setup has their fair share of problems. Those two Pokemon are just a piece of the whole. I'm NOT saying it's the best setup, as there are definitely teams that are more consistent, but this is assuming that the requirements in the match are met. That applies to every team ever, so it's up to the player to build a consistent strategy around their main setup, as well as have backup plans.
Thank you for pointing me in the right location for this
.I do see that Typhlosion is not at the same offensive level (in terms of pressure) as Feraligatr (in terms of it having instant pressure), but that by no means makes it non-useable in OU. I'm really talking about using it in OU (regardless if it resides in a lower tier) not it actually being bumped up to OU status. I mean yes, I do use Heatran Garchomp, Lando-T, Breloom MultiScale Lum Berry D-Nite and other things that are in OU because they are consistent, but I also use lower tier stuff as well. For instance, M-Manetric, Zapdos, Magnezone, Raikou and Rotom-W can't touch Lanturn without HP Grass (which is only worth carrying for things like Gastrodon and M-Swampert/Normal Swampert and Quagsire), while Bulky Choice Band Slaking OHKOes every variant of M-Salamence there is AFTER Intimidate and can survive up to a +1 Double Edge at max HP if it's not hit with a critical hit (my check to the M-Sal in the battle of Hoenn tourney, as well as Illumise). I'm not saying Slaking should be Uber because it can OHKO M-Sal or Lanturn because it laughs at practicaly all Electric types in the tier, but there are uses for Pokemon like those if you look between the lines. That's all I meant.
I mean I'm going to test it
It could be really bad just as you say, but if I make a good team to support it, it could work real well. Who knows?
Rocxidi
The Jim Reaper
phanpycross
God-king
Oh that's not too bad IMO, Megagross is really damn restricting to teambuilding in OU, it has a very low amount of pokemon who can actually switch into it, and it's speed and bulk are also out of the world.
I could certainly see it banned, and then Metagross could return to UU, yesssssssssssssss.
Mr. Reloaded
Cause a pirate is free
"Metagross, Metagross does whatever Metagross does. Can he swing on a web? No can't because he's not a bug type look ouuuuut... It's a Metagross suspect test!"
(I know that last bit didn't flow but YOLO)
On the seriousness Metagross is definitely something worthy of a suspect for 3 reasons:
•very good movepool and coverage
• Tough Claws on something with loads of moves to take advantage of it screams offensively dangerous.
• 110 speed is a godsend for our fellow spider allowing speed ties with the Latis, M-Gallade, M-Diancie ect.
But is it too good for OU? Personally that's debatable but I'm leaning towards yes but not really (I'm starting to change my mind on this one guys).
Again having counters doesn't make you not broken js (look at Kyorge and Arceus).
(I know that last bit didn't flow but YOLO)
On the seriousness Metagross is definitely something worthy of a suspect for 3 reasons:
•very good movepool and coverage
• Tough Claws on something with loads of moves to take advantage of it screams offensively dangerous.
• 110 speed is a godsend for our fellow spider allowing speed ties with the Latis, M-Gallade, M-Diancie ect.
But is it too good for OU? Personally that's debatable but I'm leaning towards yes but not really (I'm starting to change my mind on this one guys).
Again having counters doesn't make you not broken js (look at Kyorge and Arceus).
Last edited:
I feel like Metagross has nowhere as near the same effect of M-Mawile or Greninja.
While Incredibly good, I don't think it deserves to be banned.
Either way, I suppose it is time for me to play UU, or to abandon showdown altogether and join the raging fanboys of the PSS Wi-fi system. Its difficult to keep playing just to maintain a mediocre 1700 ranking when there is nothing to have fun with when battling.
While Incredibly good, I don't think it deserves to be banned.
Either way, I suppose it is time for me to play UU, or to abandon showdown altogether and join the raging fanboys of the PSS Wi-fi system. Its difficult to keep playing just to maintain a mediocre 1700 ranking when there is nothing to have fun with when battling.
Kinda interested to see where this suspect goes, a lot of people on the fence so this one can go either way. I'm leaning towards it being banned personally but we'll see. I'm to busy to ladder for reqs. Mega Metagross def deserves to be tested though, it's a monster overall and yes lando-t can check it after it megas but it has to be careful for a clear body ice punch. I do feel this is the last thing that needs to be tested barring Mega Sableye before we can achieve a balanced metagame.
Last edited:
Mr. Reloaded
Cause a pirate is free
Except Ice Punch really doesn't hit anything but Landorus-T and Dragonite for good damage.
I think Meteor Mash actually does more to the Lati Twins and Hippodown.
You're kinda better off with Hammer Arm or Grass Knot.
You can run four attacks, or agility plus three attacks. Ice Punch, Hammer Arm, Meteor Mash + zen headbutt is certainly viable or you can run those three minus Hammer Arm since it's mainly used to fit Ferro. You cannot be saying Grass Knot has more viability than Ice Punch, since Lando-T is the number one pokemon in usage it's more important than hitting Hippo with GK since that's the only thing that actually hits hard, since Zenn does more to Rotom-W. The main argument is that offense can't beat it, which is a lame argument.
Last edited: