OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[Mye]

Yeah, I'm sorta on the fence as well about the whole mega-metagross ban. On one hand, it's pretty damn powerful/bulky. On the other hand, quite a lot of things either cripple it or kill it outright (burns/para destroy it, as do most fire/ground type attacks). While banning it could be useful, I'd much rather see soul dew be OU-usable instead as it'd arguably make it more balanced by giving us two things that can at the very least revenge-kill it.

 

[Psynergy]

Not sure what I think about Mega Metagross. I'm sure everyone saw a Mega Metagross suspect coming from miles away, but I don't know if I necessarily want it banned. It's literally perfect as far as stats go, and it has an amazing ability with an amazing movepool to back it up.

That being said I don't know if it's necessarily broken. Just insanely good at what it does, which to be fair is a reasonable argument for something to be considered broken. I mean, not preparing for Mega Metagross will lead to a lot of trouble for you, but that's a trait of all top tier threats.

These are just rough initial thoughts, though. I'll probably have to play a bit to get a better idea of what I think, but at the moment I'm leaning towards the No Ban side.

 

[saPower1000]

Honestly, I can see it getting banned. With coverage in the form of Zen Headbutt, EQ, the rare Pursuit and Hammer Arm, there really aren't a lot of things that can actively switch into it and force it out. If they predict a switch and use Agility, it's almost GG if you don't have something like Gliscor or a Garchomp with Rough Skin at 76% or higher HP when it comes in. It does restrict team building a lot too, as one of the Pokemon that could be a better check to it (Mega Swampert) isn't because of Grass Knot. Seen a couple sets utilize Sticky Web so that they can invest in Bulk, and with a Hone Claws boost it can rampage through teams that don't have something to specifically check it as +1 Hone Claws Meteor Mash is brutal.

Now it's W-o-W bait which when burned makes it a lot less of a problem, but not to many Pokemon want to chance a switch in to burn it, and it almost certainly will faint trying to burn M-Metagross. The only thing that really can put a wrench in M-Metagross is M-Sableye and Air Balloon Heatran (if it lacks Hammer Arm), but that forces you to be in the right place at the right time, and is situational. Same with Lando and Lando-T, if it doesn't have Ice Punch and a Agility up, they have a chance (specifically Lando-T if it can intimidate after it Mega Evolves), but that is still a toss up.

I like Mega Metagross a lot, but if it gets banned I wouldn't be surprised. It just can hit so many things amazingly hard, and just doesn't seem to have enough viable checks to it.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

I love how people on the Smogon forums were bring up earlier how the ban of Metagrossite would lead to the ban of Sablnite and Diancite when Metagross was never keeping Sabelye in check lol, and literally nothing about M-Sabelye will change.

M-Diancie wouldn't become broken either, she'd definitely be more safe to use but she really only loses 1 offensive check lol.

Diancie would appreciate it if Metagross left but other than that I don't think the tier would change much.

 

[saPower1000]

I love how people on the Smogon forums were bring up earlier how the ban of Metagrossite would lead to the ban of Sablnite and Diancite when Metagross was never keeping Sabelye in check lol, and literally nothing about M-Sabelye will change.

M-Diancie wouldn't become broken either, she'd definitely be more safe to use but she really only loses 1 offensive check lol.

Diancie would appreciate it if Metagross left but other than that I don't think the tier would change much.

Diancie would, but it still has to worry about Scizor's BP which is a very real threat. Steel types in general give it problems tho.
Dunno why people though Mega Metagross was thought to be keeping M-Sableye under control. Unaware Clefable does well against it and once it loses priority, it's up to the boosts you were able to get to keep it alive.

 

[Rocxidi]

Currently in the process of getting reqs, reached top 150 on ladder and will likely continue later.

I'm voting No Ban. Metagross isn't the only overcentralizing pokemon in the meta. You've got things like Talonflame that require you to always have to bring a crappy mon to fight it off. Conveniently Mandibuzz counters both.

Things like Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Mandibuzz are good counters, and many common scarfers can check it. Landorus, Excadrill, Diggersby, etc. Heatran is a nice check, as it is able to live a Hammer Arm (if you're running earthquake gtfo).

The list goes on

 

[Mr.Y]

Laddering to get the requirements. Currently n°22 on the ladder (although that doesn't really matter lol) with around 1830 coil. I have to say that the meta without MegaGross seems better for me, that thing can easily wreck teams, it's fast, bulky and strong, it basicly has everything going for it. Still not sure if I'll vote to ban it, but I do feel that the meta without it is better, specially for other Megas.
The fairy argument is weak as hell, poison types still exist, just like all the other steel type 'mons. And the best fairy counter is M-Scizor, which is also the best M-Meta counter.

Currently in the process of getting reqs, reached top 150 on ladder and will likely continue later.

I'm voting No Ban. Metagross isn't the only overcentralizing pokemon in the meta. You've got things like Talonflame that require you to always have to bring a crappy mon to fight it off. Conveniently Mandibuzz counters both.

Things like Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Mandibuzz are good counters, and many common scarfers can check it. Landorus, Excadrill, Diggersby, etc. Heatran is a nice check, as it is able to live a Hammer Arm (if you're running earthquake gtfo).

The list goes on

Because Heatran, Landorus and Tyranitar are crappy as hell. The best counter is actually defensive M-Scizor, but it takes a Mega Slot, so it has a big opportunity cost.

Edit: Forgot to say that I'm using Gengar and that thing is really good. SubSplit with Sludge Wave + Focus blast is amazing against stall and balance, while also managing to put in work against offensive.

 

[jesusfreak94]

I love how people on the Smogon forums were bring up earlier how the ban of Metagrossite would lead to the ban of Sablnite and Diancite when Metagross was never keeping Sabelye in check lol, and literally nothing about M-Sabelye will change.

What credible players have you heard say that banning the Metagrossite would lead to the ban of the Sablenite? Pretty much every time I've seen a solid player bring this up in-post or have talked to them personally, they've said the exact opposite. Banning the Metagrossite will remove the dominant Steel from the metagame which will lead to an increase in Fairy viability in general, which will in turn lead to a slight decrease in Mega Sableye's viability since Fairies put a lot of pressure on it. If anything, Mega Sableye is likely to look even less broken in a Mega Metagross-less metagame, but only time will tell I suppose.

On the note of these "Fairy arguments" that people keep talking about, no one is saying that a bunch Fairies are going to be broken once Mega Metagross is banned, nor that they're going to start ruling the metagame with an iron fist after the ban. They're simply saying that Fairies are going to gain a boost in viability if Mega Metagross is banned. Besides, I haven't really seen this argument pushed very hard as either a pro- or anti-ban argument. It's just a theoretical observation about the implications of a Metagrossite ban, and to be honest, I don't think it's even debatable. When you ban the single most powerful Steel in the metagame who also just happens to be the best Pokemon in general, you're going to see an increase in the viability of Fairies. We saw it with Aegislash, and there's no reason to assume that it won't happen against with Mega Metagross. Whether one or more of these Fairies will be broken after the ban is another story, but I don't see how you can argue that banning Mega Metagross won't give Fairies a boost.

 

[Rocxidi]

Because Heatran, Landorus and Tyranitar are crappy as hell.

That's... Kinda my point lol. By crappy i meant "i really don't want this on my team but i have to"

Unlike Greninja, who's counters were **** like tenta and pory2 who have no business in ou, megagross's counters are pretty darn useful. Mandibuzz can be a defensive pivot with access to defog, and is also able to take on so many physical attackers. Same goes for skarmory, who can wall the **** out of you if you don't have it in mind during team building. It's checks are also great, unlike greninja's who were all scarfers.

Edit: Forgot to say that I'm using Gengar and that thing is really good. SubSplit with Sludge Wave + Focus blast is amazing against stall and balance, while also managing to put in work against offensive.

I've been having success with sash d bond + 3 attacks. It can check practically anything and is really useful against sucker punch from bisharp

 

[NightFire7]

The question that should be asked about Meta metagross is should a pokemon that has plenty of checks but a lack of counters be banned? Meta Metagross is like the Mega Charizard forms, once you know its moveset, it is pretty easy to deal with, but you may risk having to let one or two of your guys die in the process. It probably will get banned because any pokemon that requires the player to play around it is generally seen as too good however what I am fearful of is if Mega metagross goes, then the next pokemon that can break stall will also get banned and we will get into a cycle of stuff getting banned from OU until we are left with a very stall based metagame.

 

[Mye]

The question that should be asked about Meta metagross is should a pokemon that has plenty of checks but a lack of counters be banned? Meta Metagross is like the Mega Charizard forms, once you know its moveset, it is pretty easy to deal with, but you may risk having to let one or two of your guys die in the process. It probably will get banned because any pokemon that requires the player to play around it is generally seen as too good however what I am fearful of is if Mega metagross goes, then the next pokemon that can break stall will also get banned and we will get into a cycle of stuff getting banned from OU until we are left with a very stall based metagame.

I kinda agree with that. People have been on a bit of a tear when it comes to banning stuff as of late (especially in the lower tiers, which saw m-glalie pushed up despite it only being "usable" for a suicide-lead set and pretty horrible as any sort of sweeper). If m-metagross gets banned, it could be a sign of us seeing plenty of things get the rando-boot. A few people brought up the interesting discussion earlier, in that if a pokemon is really good at its job is it worthy of a ban? M-Metagross sits scarily on the borderline for that, as while it is bulky and has 140attack/110 speed, it can't hold an item, has a pretty "meh" ability, is vulnerable to stat drops (sticky web/intimidate), becomes dead-weight when hit by para/burn, and unless it is running hone claws has a pretty hard counter in rotom-w (who isn't a "Specialty counter" and can be used in other roles besides just countering it). Unless Feraligatr somehow becomes scarily popular (despite being hard-countered by most bulky water types) and the two hoopa formes are shown to be too powerful for their own good, the actual OU metagame seems pretty balanced.

 

[Psynergy]

Lack of counters doesn't necessarily equate to something being broken. Exploud in RU is a good example of something with little/no hard counters but is far from broken. It's not directly comparable to Metagross but I just wanted to point that out.

While some people refuse to admit that there's any truth to the slippery slope argument on bans it's still a logical fallacy. There is some degree of truth in the slippery slope argument, don't get me wrong, but the concern that one ban will lead to another thing being banned is an inherently flawed argument. Saying we shouldn't ban Metagross because it would lead to stuff being banned ignores the current issue at hand (Metagross) shifting focus to extreme hypothetical situations if it is banned, in this case a stall-heavy metagame. The hypothetical nature also means there's no proof that this will in fact happen, so the slippery slope argument is a far more emotionally based argument that's typically just conjecture rather than an actual argument for not banning it.

That being said I'm still not sure I see myself wanting to ban it. After playing a bit I don't really see much that's different yet in OU without Metagross, outside of Fairies being a bit better (Diancie in particular comes to mind). All that I've seen changed is that there's one less thing you need an answer for, though I'd imagine any team would try to have an answer for all top threats regardless.

 

[AskTheShadow]

I think Mega Metagross is absolutely worthy of a suspect test. Incredible defensive typing, 700 BST, Tough Claws to make up for lack of Life orb, bulk, 110 speed, amazing movepool. I don't think its wrecking lives like Greninja, but I am curious to see how the meta plays without it.

Something needs to happen in OU though, because stall seems to be the only consistent playstyle.

 

[Mr.Y]

I think Mega Metagross is absolutely worthy of a suspect test. Incredible defensive typing, 700 BST, Tough Claws to make up for lack of Life orb, bulk, 110 speed, amazing movepool. I don't think its wrecking lives like Greninja, but I am curious to see how the meta plays without it.

Something needs to happen in OU though, because stall seems to be the only consistent playstyle.

That's one of the main reasons for the suspect actually. People are complaining about how team match-up is a way bigger factor than it should have been.
Also, Mye, Rotom-W is not a counter as it's 2HKO'd by zen headbutt.

 

[Morokei]

I don't know how I feel about it. Back in X/Y I personally thought that ZardX was way worse in what it did compared to Metagross and it avoided the ban. In my opinion both of them serve has wall breaks with amazing speed and set up opportunities. The thing ZardX has over Metagross is access to roost/DD. Metagross has a much better defensive typing so I think the only thing scaring people really is the lack of a weakness to Stealth Rocks. I'll say this, I freakin love rocks. Its what I usually use to keep Zards in check. But even Metagross's lack of stealth rock weakness doesn't scare me simply due to the fact that it has no recovery outside of wish pass.

The same thing that checked Zard checks Metagross, Landorous T. That thing is so common its annoying. Seriously with its usage stats I don't see why people are afraid of Metagross. Because Ice punch? Well ice is such a common coverage type and that still doesn't scare out Lando from being used.

The big differences between ZardX and Metagross are the defensive checks. Skarmory/Slowbro are the only ones I can think off of the top of my head and they can be threatened. Whereas ZardX's defensive checks aren't coming to mind at the moment, but I feel like they are safer defensive checks (note: I'll definitely revise this last statement if I'm proven wrong to better address reality).

So it boil it down, I feel like Metagross is being suspected because while defense has checks/counters, its sets determine what they are. Offense never has a counter and needs to revenge kill, which tbh is rather easy with priority, status, and scarfs. It kinda bothers me that Metagross is being simply because the defensive checks aren't as secure. But it makes sense since Zard didn't affect as much of the metagame. Still leaning towards the not ban because power creep is real, we already trade sacks for revenge kills, Metagross does nothing to change that status quo.

 

[saPower1000]

After doing a few calcs just to see, thought it was worth bringing up Hoopa-U again.
I wonder if Bug type moves will see a small rise on Pokemon when Hoopa Unbound is released. I'm really interested in seeing what it can do right now. It's bound (no pun intended) to be used, and the (thankful) thing about it is that it doesn't get Agility or Prioirty, and 80 base speed means it will most likely be running a Scarf to outspeed things (unless you are willing to sacrifice a team Slot for Shuckle). Tutor moves save its otherwise lackluster movepool, but being able to hit with STAB on both attacking spectrums with base 160/170 offenses through Protect is a scary thing. Klefki might come back to OU after that comes in, and possibly if M-Meta goes to ubers. Priority T-Wave is just too good to pass up.

Example:
252 SpA Hoopa-U Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 75-88 (47.7 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed with Stealth Rocks).
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa-U: 36-43 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 71.3% chance to 4HKO

and in the case of Sableye:
0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-U: 123-145 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If they go mixed special with a IV of 7 or less on Hoopa U:
0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-U: 114-135 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And if fully Special with a Timid nature and a 31 IV in Attack:
0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-U: 109-130 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And:
+2 252 SpA Hoopa-U Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 148-175 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
If Stealth Rocks are up, its a guaranteed OHKO.

252 SpA Hoopa-U Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 204-240 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Those above sets are Naive Nature (Figured Mixed sets will see some use with Hyper Space Fury) If they end up being Rash, then SR is not even needed for Mega-S and M-Bro.
Mega Lop has to whittle it down too in terms of Scarf sets.

Lastly:
252 SpA Hoopa Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 120-144 (96 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now before you throw Sticky Barbs at me, I know HP Steel is niche as hell on it, and almost doesn't deserve a mention. But against non Sp.D invested (nature or otherwise) sets
It OHKOS and if Diancie has a Naive nature, you don't even need SR. M-Diancie can only possible check it at +2 with speed even with just Energy Ball, as some sets might run that Niche with SW Support or Choice Scarf to nuke it.

The thing does get Nasty Plot too. I wonder if we will see Sash + Nasty Plot + 3 Moves with SW support. I would think even Mega-Bro and Mega-Sab are going to have a lot of trouble with it (In the best case of a worst case scenario, M-Sabl might have to sacrifice itself to KO with Foul Play, as if it's not out before with a Calm Mind up, it won't be able to recover next turn and will get picked off by Hoopa-U).

However, this is all hypothetical. Just some thoughts I felt were relevant enough to share as this thing has the potential (key word potential) to have a impact in OU.

 

[Mr.Y]

Finally managed to get 2710 coil, 61 wins and 31 loses. I have to say, this meta is too match-up reliant, with or without Megagross. I'll likely vote ban, but I think that there's still stuff that will come out as toxic to the meta and that Smogon will ban. Hopefully by the end of gen VI we can come back to the stage of the end of the XY meta, where team match-up wasn't nearly as important as it's now.
I'll make a more in-depth post later.

 

[Everstoned]

Just wanted to throw my two cents in on the whole Megagross thing. I didn't think it was broken in the first place, but I definitely entertained the thought that it could be overcentralizing. But after getting my reqs on the suspect ladder, I learned that Metagross isn't really the cause of this matchup based metagame. The ladder was more or less the same as it was with Metagross in it, plus maybe a few more fairies. I think it is just a symptom of the insane power creeps that define 6th gen. This isn't like BW, dozens of new top tier threats are getting thrown into the meta every year with these mid-gen mini updates we seem to be getting. I think we're finally seeing a better picture of how much mega evolution is changing the game. I liked the post-Greninja metagame, but I can see I'm in the minority from looking at everybody's opinions. But banning Metagross isn't going to fix the metagame like some people think it will. It would require quite a few bans to get back to XY OU. And I can't support this kind of mindset, banning mons that aren't inherently broken or overcentralizing on their own in an attempt to make the meta more enjoyable.

 

[Lord Fighting]

When does voting for this suspect test end?

 

[cryuel]

I love how people on the Smogon forums were bring up earlier how the ban of Metagrossite would lead to the ban of Sablnite and Diancite when Metagross was never keeping Sabelye in check lol, and literally nothing about M-Sabelye will change.

M-Diancie wouldn't become broken either, she'd definitely be more safe to use but she really only loses 1 offensive check lol.

Diancie would appreciate it if Metagross left but other than that I don't think the tier would change much.

I find it interesting that this argument about M-Sableye was often being made, particularly since Sableye was (/is?) long thought of being more viable than M-Sableye. If M-Metagross was keeping M-Sableye in check, supposedly, then removing M-Metagross would conceivably also invite more Fairies to show up and scare M-Sableye. ^_^