OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[Prakhar]

I think both should be suspected eventually, along with Mega Slowbro. Slowbro is literally untouchable on the physical side, with massive defenses and access to Scald. Only physical attackers that could probably hurt it are Breloom and SD Celebi. On the specifial side, its special Defense is nothing to show off, but it will eventually get a few boosts that would make it surprisingly bulkier on the special side. Add Slack Off (or the godly restalk combo to wipe off toxic) and it becomes incredibly difficult to get rid of. Slowbro also has a surprisingly high Special Attack, making some Pokemon have to think twice about switching in (especially with Scald).

I don't think that (mega) slowbro is too broken, its just annoying. Unaware clefable with cosmic power can beat it anyday. So can chansey, it its running slack off, use toxic, and if its running rest, in the two (actually three) turns, it can be smacked in the face. If it carries sleep talk, chansey laughs, and if it carries (like mine does) Rest, calm Mind, Psyshock, Scald, then it is going to be ko'ed by breloom (sash, bullet seed while sleeping) and rotom-w (t-bolt, before set up). While it is annoying to face, once you figure its recovery method (not too hard as they cant hide it), its easy to get past it. On rest/sleep talk sets, water absorbers/dry skinners/etc. say hi.

 

[Mr.Y]

I don't think that (mega) slowbro is too broken, its just annoying. Unaware clefable with cosmic power can beat it anyday. So can chansey, it its running slack off, use toxic, and if its running rest, in the two (actually three) turns, it can be smacked in the face. If it carries sleep talk, chansey laughs, and if it carries (like mine does) Rest, calm Mind, Psyshock, Scald, then it is going to be ko'ed by breloom (sash, bullet seed while sleeping) and rotom-w (t-bolt, before set up). While it is annoying to face, once you figure its recovery method (not too hard as they cant hide it), its easy to get past it. On rest/sleep talk sets, water absorbers/dry skinners/etc. say hi.

Chansey laughs so much at a rest talk set that it's set-up fodder. Chansey comes in on M-Slowbro, it uses calm mind twice (seismic toss is a 4 hit hit KO) and keep using rest sleep talk (Bro wakes up the turn before it's gonna faint from st) until chansey dies. It's gonna take a while but with scald burns chansey will be the one in the back. A Slowbro will not try to set up against Chansey though, there are many better 'mons for it to set up on. Also, no one carries rest without sleep talk, so your breloom situation is not gonna happen. Your opponent will switch out, unless Breloom is at a low hp and Bro has some boost under it's belt. Rotom doesn't uses t-bolt, it runs volt switch instead, meaning that it doesn't put many offensive pressure, and if you get a Rotom vs Slowbro match up your opponent probably is at +1 now. And waters absorvers and dry skinners would say hi if they were actually viable (besides Toxicroak and Seismitoad).
Also, about Clefable: 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
It doesn't really always beat it, it would just become a stall war.
I don't think mega bro is broken, but it is a really good 'mon.

 

[jirachiuser1]

...Actually it DOES check it, because the situation you describe is pretty much the textbook definition of a check. It doesn't counter Mega Diancie, since to counter it has to be able to switch in and reliably get the KO. But if it can win reliable in a "1v1 situation" when having to switch in is taken out of the equation, then that's a check. In a checking situation, at worst Mega Metagross does take the hit but KOs Mega Diancie in the process. True, losing 70% minimum from an Earth Power would put a damper on things, but if Mega Diancie is otherwise going to plow through your team, then yes, it's well worth the speed tie risk. And of course if it wins the speed tie then it soundly 1HKOs Mega Diancie with no muss, no fuss.

Though to be honest, I've seen more clamor for Mega Sableye to be tested rather than Mega Diancie. Between Magic Bounce making most status/phasing a non-factor, solid bulk, and a movepool full of solid annoyances like Will-o-Wisp, Calm Mind, and Recover, it's like an unphasable CroCune. Sorta. Even its piss poor speed tier is remedied by the fact that it still gets the Prankster boost on the Mega Evolving turn. It's both a solid addition to stall and an absolute nightmare for stall to face. Fortunately it's kept in check by several fairy types, most notably Sylveon and Clefable, and it's not too immediately threatening if it doesn't get a boost or two under its belt, since it's so slow, meaning powerful special attackers (such as Specs Keldeo for instance) can 2HKO it before it can boost too high. Certain physical attackers it can't burn (or certain Lum sets) can get around it as well. But once it gets going it can be a major annoyance to break when it's burning your physical attackers and at +2 or higher special defense.

Yeah I'll agree it is a check, albeit unreliable. The poster above me was claiming that it was the "biggest offensive check" for M-Diancie, when M-Diancie really doesn't have any 100% reliable offensive checks except for Scizor, which is what makes it threatening.

The turn that it mega evolves is probably the weakest turn for Diancie, but it can obviously run Protect on the last slot to bypass this flaw. It does lose out on RP or CM in the last slot, but Protect Diancie has been pretty popular nowadays because its extremely useful. Before, Diancie would lose to things like lead chomp or scarf Lando-t because it can't risk staying in, but protect makes sure that the Diancie user is completely safe (after protecting, you also force the Garchomp user out instead).

I don't think Mega Sableye deserves suspect before Diancie because I believe its pretty overrated in this meta. Yes, its a staple on stall and it is a very good mon in general, but the prevalence of fairies just make it that much less effective. There's also other non-fairy megas such as Gyarados / Charizard x / Charizard y and other mons like SD Talonflame or Sub Cm Keldeo that can outright beat it 1v1. Unless one of the other fairies gets banned, I don't consider Mega Sableye a suspect worthy mon right now. Mega Sableye finds itself at home in balanced teams that can handle its threats and really abuse Sableye's ability to shut down hazards.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Mega Metagross is Mega Diancie's biggest offensive check, though. I mean, how many other Mega Diancie checks are over 8 feet tall and weigh more than a ton?

But for real, Mega Metagross is Mega Diancie's most influential check. It's not perfect by any means, but it does win the 1v1 matchup and has an even better chance if Mega Diancie is running HP Fire and thus loses the speed tie. Mega Diancie, like other Fairies in general, was set to naturally get better as a result of the dominant Steel being banned had Mega Metagross left, and that could have helped push it towards a suspect test. That said, I have seen a couple of good players vouching for a Mega Diancie ban even in a Mega Metagross metagame, so there's a chance it might still be looked at later on down the road. However, I do think there would have been a much better chance for it to be tested if Mega Metagross had been banned.

I do want to agree with the above about Mega Sableye being overrated, though. It's a top Mega for sure, but it's not as dominant as it was before, and I certainly don't think it deserves a suspect test. I'll just copy and paste something I posted in the OU Viability Ranking thread when discussing Mega Sableye to be moved from S to A+ Rank, since it should give a good glimpse on my thought process here.

I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, so I'm glad that it's being considered, because I've found Mega Sableye to be pretty overrated as of late. I was honestly a little surprised when it was promoted to S Rank originally, but I didn't complain because let's be real, Mega Sableye is a really good Pokemon. Plus, the diverse control it had over the hazard game really shook things up and left a huge impact on the existing hazard environment of the metagame at the time. However, as has been discussed multiple times already, the hazard game as already evolved quite nicely to deal with Mega Sableye. More and more people are using hazard setters like Lum Berry Garchomp, Earth Plate Landorus-T, and Clefable, which all have the ability to muscle their way past Mega Sableye and get Stealth Rock up. Even when you're talking about really passive hazard setters like Ferrothorn, it's not a given that Mega Sableye will be able to stop them either. If your opponent leads with Ferrothorn and you don't lead with Sableye or something that can KO Ferrothorn, your opponent is going to get Stealth Rock up regardless of the existence of Mega Sableye on your team. If you lead with Sableye and your opponent leads with something that threatens it (Mega Gardevoir, for instance), then Sableye will be forced out before it can Mega evolve and your opponent might be able to bring Ferrothorn in before you get the chance and set Stealth Rock. I realize that there are a lot of different scenarios that can happen here, but the bottom line is that players have been able to adapt nicely so that they can get Stealth Rock up even against Mega Sableye teams. I think it says a lot when we have a recent Smog article that recommends using a hazard remover alongside Mega Sableye, which is pretty telling for a Pokemon so hyped as a tool of hazard prevention.

I also think Mega Sableye's defensive capabilities have been exaggerated a bit. Base 125 Def and 115 SpD are great; base 50 HP is not, and it means that Mega Sableye's bulk is far less impressive than its high defensive base stats would lead you to believe. Combined with the lack of Leftovers recovery, this means that Mega Sableye is often going to be stretched thin with regards to what it can safely come in on. Piling EVs into one defensive stat and focusing on that side of the defensive spectrum will enable Mega Sableye to take hits really well on one side, but that's also going to leave it open on the other. For instance, you can run max Def and better handle things such as Landorus-T and Terrakion, but you'll be cleanly 2HKOed by things like offensive Heatran and Thundurus. You can run max SpD to handle those two, but now those aforementioned physical attackers are threatening with 2HKOs of their own. And of course, splitting EVs is just going to water down the bulk of a Pokemon who's only taking physical hits about as well as Terrakion and is taking special hits even less effectively. The current spread on the analysis is 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD Careful, and while this spread takes overall hits decently enough, it's still getting threatened with 2HKOs by things like itemless Garchomp's Outrage, Specs Keldeo's Scald, Clefable's unboosted Moonblast, LO Thundurus's Thunderbolt, LO Bisharp's Iron Head (plus those flinches), etc. Even with the attacks that it can escape 2HKOs from, it survives by such small margins that even the slightest bit of chip damage will remove its ability to safely switch in.

Finally, as has been mentioned also, people just know how to prepare for Mega Sableye now. There are plenty of great Fairies out there (which will be even more of an issue for Mega Sableye if Mega Metagross gets banned), things like the Mega Charizards and SubCM Keldeo can threaten it, and some people have even found value in more niche stuff like Mega Houndoom. Stallbreakers like Calm Mind Clefable and SD Gliscor have grown in popularity, and they all have the ability to muscle through stall teams that rely on Mega Sableye to handle traditional stallbreakers. The metagame overall has just adapted to it so well, and this definitely shows when you look at its rapidly declining popularity in SPL. As of Week 5, Sableye only has 6 uses in SPL, and 4 of those came from the first week alone. Now compare this to Keldeo (31 uses), Metagross (22 uses), and Landorus (15 uses). Of course, I realize that usage stats don't tell the whole story, but this is SPL that we're talking about here. These are some of Smogon's best players duking it out in this tournament, and if Sableye has hardly been touched since the first week of SPL, then it probably means something.

Overall, Mega Sableye is still a really good Pokemon. It still has unique control over the hazard game, the Calm Mind sets can still act as a good win condition for some teams, and it still checks a lot of stuff. It's still a nice catch-all for defensive and balanced teams with boundless amounts of utility. However, I just feel that a lot of Mega Sableye's best assets have been exaggerated a bit, and with the way the metagame has adapted to it, I don't feel that it's powerful or influential enough to warrant S Rank any longer.

 

[Psynergy]

So OU put up a ladder with no Megas allowed. What with the No Scald UU ladder I guess they're opening up the floor a bit on experimentation. It's kinda nice this way since it's probably less likely to cause drama the same way suspect tests do but I do hope people don't get carried away with the idea and start to assume this is some sort of suspect test.

As for the ladder itself I'm not interested, though. Mega Evolution is honestly one of the reasons Gen 6 (competitive or otherwise) interests me as much as it does, and seeing as it's a huge part of the game now I can't see myself playing or enjoying a ladder that removes a mechanic like Mega Evolution. Still, seeing as so many people were so averse to Mega Evolution as a concept and dislike the power creep that it seemingly brought with it, experimenting with this can't really be a bad thing. Seeing as this isn't replacing the current metagame I don't care, I can just not play it.

 

[AskTheShadow]

I am excited for a no scald UU. Scald is just stupidly spamable. There is no drawbacks. A 30% chance of putting a timer on any hard counter is really annoying.
But I also don't want scald to be banned from UU, so the new ladder will be nice to try out.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

The no megas ladder should have included no Knock Off, would been cool too see how many Bisharp's we'd still around.
It's just as spammable as Scald, so I don't see why not.

 

[Eaglehawk]

The no megas ladder should have included no Knock Off, would been cool too see how many Bisharp's we'd still around.
It's just as spammable as Scald, so I don't see why not.

Bisharp will probably still be viable because it punishes Defoggers pretty harshly, not to also mention it completely ruins the tier's top two Defoggers, Latias and Latios.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

Apparently this is not an early April fools joke. Giratina-O is being retested in OU!

 

[Psynergy]

This is either an incredibly elaborate and early joke, a genius idea or a horrible mistake. Not sure which yet, but on paper Giratina-O just seems like it might just be a bit too much for OU. Giratina-O may have the single item making it predictable in that regard, but it's still basically Draco + Spooky Plate in one item that can't be removed (so no Knock Off boost) which is pretty good. And 150/120/100/120/100/90 with a vast movepool complete with STAB priority is no joke. Of course I'm not sure how all of this translates to actual practice, guess I'll wait a few days to see if it's actually not a joke and then try it out for myself.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Yeah lol, I took one look at that thread and thought, "Oh, is it that time of the year already?"

 

[Disaster_Lord]

This is either an incredibly elaborate and early joke, a genius idea or a horrible mistake. Not sure which yet, but on paper Giratina-O just seems like it might just be a bit too much for OU. Giratina-O may have the single item making it predictable in that regard, but it's still basically Draco + Spooky Plate in one item that can't be removed (so no Knock Off boost) which is pretty good. And 150/120/100/120/100/90 with a vast movepool complete with STAB priority is no joke. Of course I'm not sure how all of this translates to actual practice, guess I'll wait a few days to see if it's actually not a joke and then try it out for myself.

Defog wow dmeteor Shadow ball with a timid nature and enough investment to outrun positive base 80 speed on a sand team have done wonders for me, it feels overwhelming. It's like a poisonable aegislash with more versatility that checks Lando. Honestly it feels like too much for OU.

 

[ger9119]

I'm kinda interested in Giratina-O in OU mainly since it's something different. It is certainly overpowered for OU on paper, but we can see how well it fares in actual testing. A lot of common OU mons will certainly have trouble getting passed it's bulk and it's movepool is huge. So there's various sets you can run effectively, from Stall to HO.

 

[phanpycross]

Interesting choice for a suspect, althrough on paper, it seems to blanket check most of OU, and it's movepool is insane.

it's main issue is certainly lack of recovery, but when the thing already has more bulk than aegislash.....

 

[ger9119]

It's most certainly an April's Fools joke.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

Even if it is a joke, I feel it was at least a nice idea.

Though if anything's gonna legitimately be suspected to drop, it'd be Aegislash and only Aegislash.

• I don't know why people keep crying for Mawile
• Shaymin S is basically a more obnoxious Togekiss
• We've already done Genesect
• lol Kyurem W

But to be honest, I really don't feel Giratina-O would be that bad in OU.

 

[Psynergy]

After making my previous post I had taken another look at the suspect thread post and had fun reading it. At this point I'll be surprised if it isn't a joke. "At the beginning of the X/Y era, many people suggested that Giratina-Origin shouldn't have been included in the initial banlist" is a good sentence in particular. This is the way to do a good April Fool's joke. Bonus points if it ends up being a setup for a real suspect test on Aegislash. Using a well-established top level Uber in OU is hilarious regardless though.

 

[Ace Of Keys]

Even if it is a joke, I feel it was at least a nice idea.

Though if anything's gonna legitimately be suspected to drop, it'd be Aegislash and only Aegislash.

• I don't know why people keep crying for Mawile
• Shaymin S is basically a more obnoxious Togekiss
• We've already done Genesect
• lol Kyurem W

But to be honest, I really don't feel Giratina-O would be that bad in OU.

Giratina-O is still a beast however given the current metagame as well as future changes that could happen it wouldn't be impossible to see it in OU. Reastically though i'm not really seeing it budging from its current uber status

 

[ger9119]

That's how you know when a Metagame is borked when a top level Uber coming into it sounds acceptable.

 

[Karxrida]

It's actually an April Fool's joke.