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OU Threat List

Discussion in 'Older Gens' started by Rhys29, Apr 19, 2010.

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  1. Rhys29

    Rhys29 Encore

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    Completion: 20/45
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    Current Shoddy Statistics

    Aerodactyl
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Pressure
    Aerodactyl is in the base 130 Speed tier which means he outruns or ties everything in OU other than Ninjask. Access to Taunt and Stealth Rock make Aerodactyl a prime suicide lead but weak defenses and somewhat limited movepool don't help it with much else even with a decent base 105 Attack. Aerodactyl can use a Choice Band quite well, but it is quite rare and the weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help. Generally any non-lead Aerodactyl is a rare sight.
    ~Counter Measures (Leads)~
    Choice Scarf Jirachi leads can easily 2HKO Aerodactyl and if the first hit flinches, Aerodactyl fails to do anything. Anything with priority can usually 2HKO Aerodactyl. It helps if your candidate commonly runs an entry hazard to coax Aerodactyl into Taunting turn one to score the KO before Aero does anything. Metagross, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Abomasnow, and Empoleon can take care of Aerodactyl well quite well though they may take a solid hit from Earthquake or Stone Edge/Rock Slide. Most other leads are simply forced to attempt a 2HKO on Aerodactyl while it sets up Stealth Rock.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ***
    Lead: *****


    Azelf
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG]
    Ability:Levitate
    Azelf is another very common lead and is possibly the most common. High Speed stat, fantastic offenses, and access to Taunt and Stealth Rock as well as Explosion make it the ideal suicide lead. Azelf can also use both Reflect and Light Screen for a dual screen lead for hyper offense teams and set Rain or Sun for weather based teams. Though a majority of Azelf are used as leads, it can be a deadly late game sweeper with base 115 Speed, 125 Special Attack, and Nasty Plot. Choice sets also work well but paper thin defense and weakness to Pursuit are weaknesses Azelf does not enjoy.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Since Azelf has a much greater special movepool and access to Nasty Plot, one should prepare for Azelf with a special sponge or wall however typing alone makes Spiritomb the most solid counter for Azelf. Immunity to Explosion and STAB Psychic while hitting back hard with STAB SE Pursuit or Sucker Punch makes Spiritomb Azelf's worst nightmare. Blissey and Snorlax do exceptionally well even when Azelf runs Hidden Power Fighting. Depending on the moveset Latias can also be an effective counter. However timing a switch into Nasty Plot Azelf can also defeat the set. Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Choice Band Weavile outrun and easily OHKO's with Pursuit if they manage to switch in while Azelf uses Nasty Plot or Psychic thanks to the Psychic-type immunity. Metagross and Scizor both tear Azelf open with STAB priority Bullet Punch and can catch fleeing Azelf with Pursuit while resisting STAB Psychic.
    ~Counter Measures (Leads)~
    Anything faster with Taunt can shut down most Azelf leads and force it to attack and/or use Explosion. Weavile and Aerodactyl both outrun and while Weavile with Fake Out assures Azelf is KO'd before it gets a chance to do anything, Aerodactyl can Taunt and set up for its team. Tyranitar also does extremely well: Sand Stream breaks Azelf's Sash and a Crunch easily dispatches it. Tyranitar also resists Explosion and any other common move thrown out by a lead set (Fire Blast, Psychic). If Azelf forgoes Taunting to get a hit on Tyranitar, you can set Stealth Rock. If Azelf Taunts, it is OHKO'd before setting up. Metagross, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Infernape, and Empoleon can 2HKO Azelf with a combination of priority and a strong STAB attack, giving it only a turn to either Taunt, set Stealth Rock, or use Explosion. Choice Scarf Jirachi can 2HKO with Iron Head and is completely unharmed if the first hit flinches Azelf.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ****
    Lead: *****


    Blissey
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG]
    Ability:Natural Cure/Serene Grace
    Blissey is simply the greatest special wall in the game. With the unbelievable base 255 HP stat and impressive base 135 Special Defense it shrugs off just about every non-boosted special attack in OU. Access to Wish, Aromatherapy (or Heal Bell thanks to HGSS), Softboiled, Toxic, Thunderwave, and even Stealth Rock makes Blissey a fantastic supporter. However with its pathetic base 10 Attack and ignorable base 75 Special Attack it has to use moves such as Seismic Toss or an exploitable x4 weakness to deal moderate damage. Blissey's terrible base 10 Defense forces it to run in fear from any physical attacker.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Just about any powerful physical attacker or Fighting type is more than enough to get Blissey to turn and run. Rest/Sleep Talk Machamp is by far the most potent counter. Blissey's status has no effect and it will never KO with Seismic Toss thanks to Rest and fears a powerful STAB SE Dynamic Punch. Heracross can switch into Toxic and get a free Guts boost as well as threaten with a potent Close Combat. Lucario and Scizor can set up on Blissey as long as they avoid Flamethrower and Lucario doesn't enjoy Thunder Wave. Both can immediately threaten with Superpower or Close Combat. Snorlax, Metagross, and Tyranitar don't mind Paralysis as much as some other counters and easily smack Blissey around with STAB and/or Pursuit. Substitute Rotom and Gengar can set up on Blissey but Rotom needs to avoid Toxic and both can't stand Thunder Wave upon switching in. Once they Sub up, Rotom can get boosts with Charge Beam while Gengar takes a massive chunk out of Blissey with Pain Split. Tyranitar, Gliscor, and Gyarados with Taunt force Blissey to use its terrible offense and can set up or straight out attack. Choice Trick users cripple Blissey but the timing isn't always easy. Special based threats like Starmie and Latias do well at drawing Blissey in and are the most suitable candidates for Trick.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ****


    Breloom
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Poison Heal/Effect Spore
    Breloom is a unique Pokemon that has just about everything it needs. It's legendary Substitute/Focus Punch set is a terror to behold to every team not prepared for it. Its signature move, Spore, is widely considered the best move in the game since it sleeps a single Pokemon 100% of the time. It's main ability Poison Heal provides 1/8th (12.5%) recovery every turn as long as Breloom is poisoned and with Toxic Orb equipped it not only isn't a difficult task but it provides an immunity from all other status. Once Breloom jumps behind a Substitute it can either dish out a STAB Focus Punch coming off a base 130 Attack, start picking up even more HP every turn with Leech Seed, or pumping out other attacks like Seed Bomb or Stone Edge. Luckily a lackluster base 70 Speed and disappointing defenses helps keep Breloom from being too overpowered. Other Breloom sets include Choice Scarf, Swords Dance, and Spore + 3 Attacks.
    ~Counter Measures
    Breloom is a very tricky opponent to deal with. The closest thing to a counter Breloom has is Ariados. Insomnia prevents Spore from working, resists Fighting and Grass x4, and hits back hard with STAB Poison Jab. However with low base stats Ariados needs heavy HP and Defense investments to take hits from Breloom well and has issues with Sub/Leech Seed sets. Weakness to Stealth Rock and Stone Edge doesn't help either. Honchcrow and Hypno also have Insomnia and can exploit Breloom's weaknesses. Both do not like taking heavy hits however. All these mentioned counters are rarely used in standard play other than for this purpose. The best way to deal with Breloom outside of taking up a space for a specific counter is to let something absorb Breloom's Spore and then go in for the kill. This strategy opens up many other viable counters (or rather checks) to bring Breloom down. A few names of those who do this well are Celebi, Cresselia, Latias, Weezing, Crobat, Salamence, Rotom-H, and Zapdos.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ****


    Bronzong
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Levitate/Heatproof
    Bronzong's typing and ability give it one of the greatest defensive potentials in the game. Coupled with great defenses and usable offenses it makes an excellent defensive Pokemon. Bronzong doesn't stop there, it has access to a wide variety of support moves. It is one of the best mid-game Rain Dance replenishers and by far the most effective Trick Room setter. It can also lead with Stealth Rock and moves like Hypnosis or Dual Screens. Bronzong's biggest let down is lack of reliable recovery and low base HP.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Right away Magnezone is Bronzong's most feared counter. Magnezone's Magnet Pull traps Bronzong and thanks to Magnezone's amazing typing, the only thing Bronzong can do is use Earthquake. However Magnet Rise will render even this completely useless. Rotom forms, though Rotom-H inparticular make excellent counters. All resist Gyro Ball and are immune to both Explosion and Earthquake while being able to set up on their own. Gyarados throws an Intimidate on an already resisted Gyro Ball giving it an easy shot at setting up. Bronzong's main tool against Gyarados, Hypnosis, is defeated by Taunt sets and thus HP-Electric and Explosion are left. Most bulky Waters like Swampert and Vaporeon can beat non-Rest/Sleep Talk variants with STAB Water attacks. Calm Mind Suicune get a free set up on any non-Explosion/Trick Bronzong who stays in. Fire types resist Gyro Ball and threaten Bronzong's singular weakness. Moltres and Charizard do this exceptionally well thanks to an immunity to Earthquake but do not enjoy Stealth Rock. Most of Bronzong's counters do not enjoy the Trick set, except for the odd Sticky Hold Gastrodon. Calm Mind Celebi can set up and stall Bronzong down with Leech Seed as well. Bronzong is Skarmory Spiker bait since Skarmory gets several free turns walling every move Bronzong can fire off while setting up Spikes though it doesn't like Trick.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Anything that counters Bronzong normally will counter lead Bronzong. All Taunt leads who can set up for their team do extremely well against Bronzong though normal Taunt leads tend to shut it down regardless. Shuca Heatran and lead Infernape can both 2HKO with STAB Fire attacks before Bronzong can with Earthquake.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ***
    Lead: **


    Celebi
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Natural Cure
    Celebi's interesting Psychic/Grass type provides it with key resistances to Electric, Ground, Fighting, Grass, Water, and Psychic type which makes it an excellent tank against a variety of opponents. STAB Grass Knot or Leaf Storm, Thunder Wave, and Recover are commonly used tools in Celebi's defensive arsenal. Earth Power, Leaf Storm, and Psychic are all powerful moves Celebi can fire off with its base 100 Special Attack with Choice, Calm Mind, or Life Orb sets. With the Natural Cure ability it can switch in and out of status without a problem but Psychic type's weakness to Pursuit does not make switching out a particularily easy task. Celebi also makes a fantastic Baton Passer with Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and the soon to come Nasty Plot. Access to Stealth Rock and U-Turn makes Celebi a viable lead especially since it can take a hit or two and even wall some leads. Celebi's only true downside is its plethora of weaknesses.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Celebi's weakness to Pursuit is really a strain on its survivability. Weavile and Tyranitar both threaten Celebi if it stays in or if it switches out. However neither like switching into Thunder Wave and while Tyranitar has an incredibly impressive Special Defense thanks to Sand Stream it is still 2HKO'd by Grass Knot with Stealth Rock down without signifigent investment. Weavile does not enjoy Leech Seed or Reflect either and struggles to bring Celebi down with even Ice Punch with an unfortunately timed switch. Houndoom is mentionable thanks to resistance to Grass Knot and immunity to Psychic but is a rare sight in OU. Steel type Spikers Skarmory and Forretress generally have an easy time setting entry hazards as Celebi fails to deal much damage and neither care about Thunder Wave. Scizor can slaughter sets not carrying Hidden Power Fire with either Pursuit or U-turn/Bug Bite. Flygon can be a nice check with a quick U-Turn and an immunity to Thunder Wave. Salamence x4 resists Grass and can 2HKO with Life Orb Fire Blast but must be careful of Hidden Power Ice. Latias resists just about every move Celebi can throw at her and can set up Calm Mind even on Hidden Power Ice sets. It should be noted both Dragons do not like Thunder Wave. Heatran is an excellent counter with STAB SE Fire attacks and x4 resistance to Grass. Azelf can make a nice check with its resistance to Psychic and light weight but doesn't enjoy switching into Leaf Storm or an offensive set.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Celebi has a huge problem with leads carrying U-Turn as they deal lethal damage. Faster leads with Taunt will be able to shut Celebi down but those weak to U-Turn or reliant on Focus Sash need to watch out for U-Turn. Heatran and Infernape can dish out some massive damage with STAB Fire attacks and Celebi's lacking Occa Berry are OHKO'd by Fire Blast. Heatran sets are always beaten by Occa Berry Celebi if you go with Fire Blast turn one, however Explosion scores a OHKO about 60% of the time with 0 investment and a neutral nature. Tyranitar with Pursuit, though odd, will catch Celebi as it U-Turns out and with Stealth Rock down and SS running it will never be able to switch back in.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ***
    Lead: *


    Dragonite
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Inner Focus
    Dragonite is often labelled as an weaker Salamence due to it's inferior ability and lower speed. No matter how similar they may seem they are both quite different. Thanks to incredibly bulky stats and a wide range of resistances Dragonite's bulky Dragon Dance set is a terror to any team short of a powerful Ice attack. Powerful attacks such as the Dragon signature Outrage and Draco Meteor make Dragonite a dangerous foe. Dragonite gained Extremespeed from HGSS and with this added priority can now run a Mix set much easier and became a solid anti-lead. Dragonite also has a widely overlooked support movepool with such moves as Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, and Light Screen. Dragonite also has Roost to heal off damage and remove two weaknesses which works especially well with the Bulky Dragon Dance set. Dragonite's low base speed is its only drawback and less centralized stats make it easier to handle the mix set than others.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Hitting Dragonite with an Ice attack is by all means the easiest method. The easiest way to keep Dragonite in check is to run Stealth Rock somewhere on your team. Dragonite does not enjoy taking 25% on the switch in since it isn't hard to outrun and two heavy neutral hits can drop it depending on the set. Cresselia, Suicune, Slowbro, and Swampert are quite reliable counters as they can take a boosted Outrage quite well and threaten with Ice Beam or Avalanche. Weavile and Mamoswine are the best revenge style answers due to their STAB Ice Shard. Timing a switch on a non offensive move (Mamoswine is immune to the rare Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt) won't be easy but will force sets lacking Yache Berry out immediately. Hippowdon can take a hit from physical variants without an issue and Roar them away or hit back hard with Stone Edge/Ice Fang. Skarmory and Bronzong wall the standard bulky DD set and bring it down with Whirlwind and Gyro Ball/Hidden Power Ice respectively. Scizor can switch into Outrage quite well and Earthquake to an extent and threaten low HP Dragonites with Bullet Punch. All three Steel types do not enjoy Fire attacks.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Dragonite is a tough cookie to 'beat' in the lead contest. Inner Focus makes leads like Infernape and Jirachi avoid their normal strategy. Mamoswine is by far the best answer in terms of leads since it can set Stealth Rock and outruns turn 2 to hit with Ice Shard for the KO. Metagross can set Stealth Rock, outrun and use Explosion or the rare Ice Punch turn two to bring Dragonite down. The best thing to do is to simply set Stealth Rock with a set up lead since you usually get a single turn. Leads like Azelf can use Explosion to defeat Dragonite turn one though they do not accomplish anything otherwise. A Ghost type lead such as Gengar is immune to Extremespeed and can usually score a 2HKO before Dragonite with a Focus Sash equipped. Sleep leads like Roserade, Breloom, and Crobat are decent answers but unreliable as some run Lum Berry > Life Orb.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ***
    Lead: *


    Dusknoir
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG]
    Ability:Pressure
    Dusknoir was considered one of the most unnecessary added evolutions of 4th generation. Dusknoir has incredibly high defensive stats but a laughable base 45 HP. Before Platinum Dusknoir was considered a useful physical tank that could spin block and handle physical threats better than Spiritomb (who actually spin blocks better). However now Rotom-A has nearly eclipsed Dusknoir in every way thanks to better typing, STAB, ability, and overall base stats. The main things Dusknoir does better now are Gravity and Trick Room.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Dusknoir has a huge problem with Pursuit users if they switch in unharmed. Taunt or Substitute Tyranitar can switch in and block Will-O-Wisp attempts to force Dusknoir out quickly and the added damage from Sand Stream greatly hinders Dusknoir's survivability. Heracross can switch into WoW (and generally any other move) and get a free Guts boost. Interestingly Houndoom can switch into almost all of Dusknoir's attacks, even scoring a Flash Fire boost from WoW, and deal massive damage with Dark Pulse or Flash Fire boosted Fire Blast/Overheat. Heatran is a constant problem to most sets if it can avoid Earthquake and it possesses Flash Fire like Houndoom. Spiritomb, especially Rest/Sleep Talk variants, have no problem switching into Dusknoir and launching WoW or Dark Pulse. Sets lacking Thunderpunch have trouble with Taunt Gyarados if it can score a switch in without getting burned. Generally anything with Taunt can take Dusknoir if it lacks a super effective attack. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp make quick work of Dusknoir and its attempts to stall.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: **


    Electivire
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG]
    Ability:Motor Drive
    In the early stages of the 4th generation metagame, Electivire was a massive threat as were others like Yanmega and Weavile. Once the frail sweepers started becoming overlooked for bulkier sweepers like Metagross and Garchomp, they quickly fell into the shadows. Electivire is still somewhat popular today but is no longer the threat it used to be. With Motor Drive Electivire can switch in on any Electric attack for a Speed boost and start attacking. Though Electivire has an impressive base 123 Attack stat, Electric type without Volt Tackle is a terrible physically offensive type. It is stuck with it's main offensive tool being Thunderpunch which is complimented by the other elemental punches, Earthquake, and Cross Chop. Electivire can also run a mix set with its decent base 95 Special Attack stat and access to moves like Thunderbolt and Flamethrower. Thankfully for Electivire it has a broad type attacking range so items like Expert Belt come in handy.
    ~Counter Measures
    Electivire is walled by a lot of threats, though it usually depends upon its set. Sets lacking Hidden Power Grass are walled by Swampert. Cresselia takes little damage from anything Electivire can dish out. Rotom-A and Dusknoir to a lesser extent walls Electivire silly can burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Rhyperior, Bronzong, Hippowdon, Celebi, Tangrowth, and Forretress wall the physical variant and only Forretress fears the uncommon Fire Punch. Timing a switch with Dugtrio can be a bit tricky if you don't have Electric bait available but can trap and easily down Electivire. Anything faster which can switch in on a predicted attack and possesses decent offenses or a Ground attack can generally force Electivire out. As long as Electivire hasn't gotten its Motor Drive boost it is not much of a threat.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: **


    Empoleon
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Torrent
    Empoleon's bread and butter is its incredibly powerful late game sweeping set which combines the forced HP drop from Substitute, Agility to boost its speed past a huge number of threats including Choice Scarf Heatran, Torrent to add more power to Surf and Hydro Pump, and a Petaya Berry. Without a resist or a dedicated special sponge, most teams are wiped out. Those who opt for coverage can use the Agility 3 Attacks set though it lacks power in comparison. Empoleon has a huge number of resistances: nine x2 resists, two x4 resists, and an immunity. Unfortunately, ouside of all this Empoleon has a shallow movepool and common weaknesses that are not easy to get around. Empoleon can also use Swords Dance and make a decent bulky lead but neither are used enough to be common place threats.
    ~Counter Measures~
    The SubPetaya set is not very hard to counter but Pokemon that do are easy to draw in and wear down. Tentacruel can take +1 Torrent Surfs repeatedly and soaks up Toxic Spikes which are common place with the specific set. However Tentacruel will need either Hidden Power Electric or Rest/Sleep Talk in order to come out on top. Blissey can take Empoleon down without much trouble but can have an issue with Toxic Spikes. Vaporeon and Lanturn both don't take enough damage from Grass Knot and can hit back with Hidden Power Electric or STAB Thunderbolt respectively. Latias can set up Calm Mind on even Ice Beam varaints (as long as it carries Recover) if Empoleon hasn't received the Petaya boost and is immune to Toxic Spikes. Fighting type priority from the likes of Hitmontop and Lucario can drop Empoleon as long as it is not hiding behind a Substitute. Without Ice Beam, Celebi walls it and without Grass Knot a wide variety of bulky Water types wall the set. All previously mentioned counters that aren't move-specific counter the Agility 3 Attacks set as well as some other special sponges like Cresselia and Snorlax. Some do have to watch out for Hidden Power Electric such as Tentacruel and predicting the wrong attack could end up fatal.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: **


    Flygon
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Levitate
    Flygon was completely overlooked early 4th gen thanks to it’s incredible inferiority to Garchomp as the Dragon/Ground type of the tier. Once Garchomp was banned to Ubers however Flygon reappeared in OU. Flygon has quite bland base stats but has several unique traits that set it apart from the other Dragon types of OU. First off it is the only Dragon with U-Turn which makes it an incredible team scout for the other more offensive Dragons like Salamence. Not only this, but it is a fantastic U-Turn user with it’s immunity to Electric, Ground, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes as well as a resistance to Rock and Fire. Flygon is most well known for it’s Choice Scarf set since it can pump out repeated fast U-Turns to scout the opponent’s team and finish off weakened opponents. Choice Band and Life Orb sets are used as well but no where near as often. Flygon really just wishes it had better stats but like Breloom it makes due with them quite well.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Cresselia is by far the most potent counter as it’s not only never 2HKO’d by anything Flygon can dish out and is immune to STAB Earthquake. Cresselia can either set up or OHKO with Ice Beam. Skarmory and Bronzong can both switch into just about any move the Choice sets dish out and set up for their team. Skarmory should have some Special Defense investment in order to switch into Fire Blast reliably and Bronzong should watch out for Banded Fire Punch. Forretress works similarily but should avoid all Fire attacks. Hippowdon and Gliscor can both take hits from even the Choice Band set but must have Ice Fang to deal with Flygon. Suicune and Vaporeon can both deal with Flygon well but don’t enjoy Choice Band Outrages with some residual damage. Heatran and Metagross can switch into Outrage easily and dish out heavy damage with respective Ice attacks (or Dragon Pulse in Heatran’s case) but must watch out for Earthquake and Metagross does not enjoy Fire Blast. Both Porygon2 and Gardevoir can switch into Earthquake though they should avoid STAB hits on the special and physical side respectively but both don’t enjoy a boosted Outrage. Do note the Choice Scarf set is much easier to deal with than the Choice Band in terms of countering. The Choice Scarf set is also about 7 x more common so any counter mentioned that can handle the Choice Scarf will more than suffice.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ***


    Forretress
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Sturdy
    Forretress is the best entry hazards supporter in the game hands down. Access to Rapid Spin and every EH in the game (Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes) make it an incredibly valuable asset to any team who could use the type of support and also quite a viable lead. Though Forretress has low HP, it has a Defense stat equal to Skarmory, base 140 and has overall better physical defense. Skarmory's advantage lies in reliable recovery and phazing however. To top things off, Bug/Steel type has eight x2 resistances, one x4 resistance, and an immunity to Poison with a single weakness to Fire. This provides easy switching around for Forretress and the added turns of forcing switches nabs more time to set entry hazards for your team. Forretress may be an amazing entry hazards supporter, but generally does nothing beyond this. Lack of reliable healing also is a damper, its only tools for increasing longevity are Pain Split (curtesy of HGSS) and Rest. Though these can be effective tools, Forretress has issues enough as is with the four moveslot syndrome (fms). It can't fit Rapid Spin, Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, reliable recovery, and some form of attack all on one set. Forretress' x4 weakness to Fire is nearly impossible to divert and its low base 60 Special Defense does not help it.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Forretress is difficult to truely 'counter' as every time you bring in said counter it gets another layer of entry hazards down or Rapid Spins yours away. Any Fire attack is the easiest way to dispatch Forretress thanks to it's x4 weakness. Shed-less Forretress' worst enemy is Magnezone who can trap him and easily OHKO with Hidden Power Fire to stop the threat immediately. Heatran is a more potent threat to Shed Shell Forretress since you can greatly damage the switch in. Note that both Magnezone and Heatran should be careful switching in as Earthquake deals massive damage and has a chance to KO if Stealth Rocks are down. Zapdos walls Forretress and OHKO's with Heat Wave though Thunderbolt will usually suffice. Rotom-H and Gengar can switch into Rapid Spin or Earthquake and OHKO with their respective Fire attacks though both should watch for Payback which can even threaten bulky Rotom. Spiritomb and Dusknoir can both spin block as well but their only real means of dealing with Forretress, outside of wasting a slot for Hidden Power Fire/Fire Punch, is to burn it but since most Forretress are without Leftovers and Rest both Ghost-types can wear it down quickly. Gyarados and Kingdra can switch into Forretress with little fear of damage and start Dragon Dancing, though it should be noted Substitute DD Kingdra sets are more viable to block incoming Explosions. Lucario can set up against any sets lacking Earthquake. Bulky Curse or Calm Mind users like Swampert, Suicune, Jirachi, and Snorlax can switch in and set up unopposed but can take a healthy chunk from Explosion. Possibly the easiest way to get rid of Forretress without risking the extra turns it may receive from switching is to use a lure with a Fire attack. Good examples include Fire Punch Jirachi, Flamethrower Blissey, and Hidden Power Fire Swampert and Metagross.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Basically no opponent can really 'counter' Forretress leads as they simply switch out and come back in later. The best way to take care of it is to threaten one with a Fire move and proceed to set up as it flees. Leads like Heatran and Infernape do this quite well and a quick prediction can buy you a turn to set Stealth Rock. Using a lure like Metagross or Swampert with Hidden Power Fire is an excellent way to deal massive damage to Forretress turn one. Any other previously mentioned counter works perfectly well too as a lead set is rarely different from standard sets.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: **
    Lead: *


    Gengar
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Levitate
    Gengar is the second most dangerous threat from 1st gen, first being Gyarados. However Gengar didn't really get extremely useful until 4th gen when Ghost-type attacks were no longer purely physical. Gengar is immune to a total of 3 types: Normal, Fighting, and Ground. Fighting and Ground are the two types that score the greatest number of super effective hits in the game and are used on a great number of sweeping sets. The Normal immunity is beyond valuable for Explosion. It is these immunities that make Gengar so much more dangerous than Alakazam, which is commonly seen as a superior from newer players. Gengar has a monsterous base 130 Special Attack stat and base 110 Speed allows him to revenge kill every Dragon Dancer in the game. Gengar also gains flawless coverage with STAB Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. Thunderbolt compliments this well since Gengar can put a halt to Gyarados. However the last slot seems to be a toss between any number of moves, the more common being Substitute, Explosion, Hidden Power Fire/Ice, Destiny Bond, and the occassional Hypnosis. Gengar's biggest let downs are its wet-paper-towel defensive stats though somewhat dismissable thanks to its immunities. Gengar could definitely use a more powerful STAB attack as well.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Just about anything with Pursuit can make short work of Gengar, especially Choice variants. Tyranitar and Weavile should watch out for Focus Blast and Metagross can be 2HKO'd by the rare Choice Specs set. Choice Scarf Heracross' Pursuit is also dangerous though it can't switch in quite as well as the other Pursuit users mentioned. Spiritomb has enough Special Defense to absorb hits from Gengar and play the Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgame. Sucker Punches and Pursuits in general will down Gengar from less common threats like Absol, Drapion, and Dugtrio though they will have a much harder time finding an easy switch in. Scizor can play a similar game with Bullet Punch and Pursuit and it also resists Shadow Ball for an easier switch in but must watch out for Hidden Power Fire. Blissey and Snorlax do quite well against Gengar, Blissey being able to paralyze and whittle Gengar down while Snorlax can OHKO with Pursuit or Crunch. Both should watch out for the rare Trick and Snorlax should be wary of Focus Blast. Jirachi and Bronzong can both absorb hits with some investment and hit hard with their respective Steel-type signature attacks. Heatran can switch into everything but Focus Blast and OHKO with Fire Blast.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: *****


    Gliscor
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Sand Veil/Hyper Cutter
    Gliscor is one of the extremely rare Pokemon that is immune to both Ground and Electric while resisting Fighting, the only other being Claydol. These invaluable type advantages coupled with Gliscor's great base 125 Defense make him quite a formidable tank. Gliscor is the first Pokemon on the list so far with two abilities that would actually use both abilities. Defensive sets on Sand Storm teams have the evasion boost from Sand Veil to help Gliscor avoid an occasional attack. Hyper Cutter suppresses Intimidate from Gyarados and Salamence while Gliscor sets up Swords Dance or prepares to Baton Pass to a teammate. Gliscor has an amazingly versatile movepool including U-Turn, Agility/Rock Polish, Roost, and Knock Off. With Taunt, Stealth Rock, and an above average base 95 Speed, Gliscor makes an excellent bulky lead and U-Turn provides a quick escape from faster or deadly opponents while breaking Focus Sashes. Downsides to Gliscor include it's low Special Defense of base 75 and generally low HP. A huge x4 weakness to Ice and weakness to Water don't help it's Special Defense weakness and most bulky Waters can take much of what Gliscor can use (especially offensively) which does not ease this concern.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Gyarados is Gliscor's worst enemy, being immune to Earthquake while hitting back hard with Ice Fang and STAB Waterfall. Intimidate also cuts any chance Gliscor has to bring Gyarados down with Stone Edge if Gliscor lacks Hyper Cutter. Basically any bulky Water-types make quick work of Gliscor though behind a Light Screen the Baton Pass set can take multiple uninvested STAB hits and would need Ice Beam or another Ice attack in order to deal with it properly. Roar or Haze from these bulky Water-types is another great way to deal with Gliscor though the prevalance of Taunt (a bit more than 50% run Taunt) makes it more of a liability. Gliscor lacking Taunt are open to Skarmory who can wall Gliscor while setting up Spikes or Whirlwind away Sword Dance boosts. Knock Off can also get rid of Skarmory's Shed Shell making it a free KO for Magnezone. Cresselia takes relatively little damage from all of Gliscor's attack however it can U-Turn or Baton Pass to a counter to Cresselia that resists Ice. Bronzong resists everything Gliscor pumps out and can cripple Gliscor with Hypnosis or Trick. Hidden Power Ice however is a much more solid answer. Any Ice attack will tear Gliscor open though special-based attacks will deal much more damage. Otherwise abusing Gliscor's low Special Defense will be key to bringing Gliscor down.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Swampert, the common Mix Swampert especially, will commonly draw Taunt from Gliscor turn one and an Ice Beam or Hydro Pump will deal hefty damage though both will fail to OHKO 252 HP Gliscor a vast majority of the time without investment. Dragonite and Ice Punch Machamp make quick work of Gliscor, Quiet Dragonite's Draco Meteor OHKOing 80% of the time and Machamp scoring an easy 2HKO (though note Dynamic Punch should be used first since the combination of Ice Punch and Bullet Punch rarely 2HKO's and the turn of confusion can buy you a turn). Azelf and Aerodactyl both outrun, have Taunt and Stealth Rock, and are immune to Gliscor's Earthquake. Azelf should be weary of U-Turn it takes decent damage while breaking its Sash (same goes for Aerodactyl but takes much less thanks to a resist). Crobat is fast enough to Taunt and set up for its team or put Gliscor to sleep.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ****
    Lead: ***


    Gyarados
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Intimidate
    Gyarados is the single biggest threat from the 1st generation and was a big menace back in competitve 1st gen. Taking hits in 2nd and 3rd gen with its massive Special Attack drop and complete lack of physical STAB, 4th gen is where Gyarados really started to shine again thanks to the new attacking mechanics. Gyarados has an impressive base 125 Attack stat and odd but incredibly useful base 81 Speed stat which are both boosted with the extremely common Dragon Dance sets. With Intimidate and base 100 Special Defense and 95 HP Gyarados is far bulkier than the other common Dragon Dance users. Along with STAB Waterfall, Gyarados' physical movepool includes the ever common Stone Edge, Earthquake, Ice Fang, and the occassional Bounce. Taunt is also a common tool, being able to break apart threats who can only defeat Gyarados or prevent it from setting up with phazing or status like Skarmory or Blissey. Choice Band and lead sets are both viable for Gyarados but are quite rare and Offensive Dragon Dance and Bulky Dragon Dance are much more dangerous to teams once Gyarados' counters are gone. Gyarados biggest problem and possibly biggest advantage is its typing. Being x4 weak to anything is a problem and Gyarados' Electric weakness is a big thorn in its side. Weakness to Rock also makes it difficult to switch in more than once and increases the chances of even unboosted, non-STAB, low base power Electric moves to the OHKO territory.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Porygon2 is considered one of the best Gyarados counters out there. Switching in and Tracing Intimidate drops Gyarados' power a great deal and removes any Dragon Dance Attack boost. From there Porygon2 can dispatch Gyarados with Discharge or Thunderbolt. Rotom-A can take a boosted hit from Gyarados and retaliate with STAB Thunderbolt for a OHKO even with no investments (Discharge will OHKO with Stealth Rock). Choice Scarf sets can also outrun after a Dragon Dance and score the OHKO without taking a hit. Cresselia can take mutliple hits from Gyarados, hitting back with Charge Beam, and sets lacking Taunt are open to other ways of slowing it down such as Reflect and Thunder Wave. Celebi and Tangrowth have great natural defenses and resist STAB Waterfall while being able to hit back hard with respective base 120 STAB Grass attacks. Starmie at full HP can switch in and OHKO with Thunderbolt while taking a heavy hit though it must run a good chunk of bulk to do so. Celebi, Tangrowth, and Starmie all have issues with Bounce Gyarados. Bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Suicune, Milotic, and Vaporeon with Hidden Power Electric make solid checks or counters but must be careful as they can be 2HKO'd on occassion. Jolteon can be a decent check since a vast majority run a non-positive Speed nature and outruns neutral Gyarados with a single Dragon Dance under its belt but should avoid switching in right away without Reflect (or a confident predict) and is useless after a second Dragon Dance. Skarmory plays a deadly game with Gyarados since Taunt sets stop Skarmory from Whirlwinding it away. If Gyarados switches into Skarmory, the metal bird will have to switch out since Brave Bird will do insufficient with the Intimidate drop.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: *****


    Heatran
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Flash Fire
    Heatran is a force to be reckoned with in the OU tier. With one of the highest Special Attacks in the tier it makes quick work of anything not resisting its STAB Fire Blast and even several who do. As if base 130 Special Attack wasn't strong enough, Flash Fire boosts Fire attacks by 1.5x when Heatran takes a Fire attack (which is nullified). Heatran's plethora of resistances, including x4 resistance to Ice, Steel, and Bug and an invaluable Dragon resist, combined with impressive defenses and HP provide Heatran with many switch ins beyond Fire attacks. Heatran doesn't stop there: a versatile movepool and well distributed stats allow Heatran to fulfill many jobs depending on what your team needs. Access to Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, Magma Storm, and Overheat gives Heatran several options for Flash Fire boosts. Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, various Hidden Powers, and Explosion make up the majority of Heatran's other offensive options, several of which can help Heatran overpower its counters. Stealth Rock and Taunt added into the mix not only make Heatran an excellent supporter for the team, a potent lead, and Taunt can help Heatran break walls like Blissey if it lacks any way to damage Heatran. Though the Choice Scarf set is the most common, Life Orb and tanking Heatran sets are quite common along with the Shuca Berry lead. Heatran's downfall is it's weakness to the very common offensive types Ground (x4), Fighting, and Water. Heatran's disappointing base 77 Speed though useful prevents Heatran from outrunning vital threats without Choice Scarf.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Generally bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon, Milotic, Tentacruel, and Suicune all make good counters to Heatran as they resist Heatran's heavy Fire attacks and hit back hard with STAB SE Surf. Gyarados can deal with Heatran though Stealth Rock, Sand Storm, and frequent burns is a major hamper on Gyarados' effectiveness. Gardevoir and Porygon2 can switch into Heatran's Fire attacks and Trace Flash Fire. Gardevoir is the better of the two having a much higher Special Defense though Porygon2 has better overall bulk and access to Recover rather than Wish/Protect is valuable. Latias and the best Fire resist in the tier, Kingdra, can switch into everything but Dragon Pulse (Hidden Power Ice can be dangerous against Latias) and set up. Certain Blissey sets make good counters as they can sponge up even Flash Fire boosted Fire Blasts but need something to hit back with to be a true counter as Taunt sets will quickly tear Blissey down. Protect/Wish Blissey is especially effective as it can scout and render Explosion useless which would otherwise drop her. Heatran acts as a counter to itself as long as it watches out for Earth Power as it resists everything it can normally hit with and absorbs Fire attacks. Choice Band Dugtrio and Choice Scarf Magnezone can both trap Heatran and OHKO with respective Ground attacks but must be extremely cautious since neither can outrun Choice Scarf sets and are easily KO'd by any Fire attack and in Magnezone's case, Earth Power as well. Dugtrio's lack of bulk prevents it from switch into anything but Hidden Power Electric. Snorlax and Hariyama with Thick Fat resist Heatran's STAB attack and hit back hard with SE Fighting or Ground attacks. Tyranitar resists Fire-type and with it's ability gets a healthy Special Defense boost and with investment a defensive Tyranitar isn't even 4HKO'd by SE Earth Power while easily OHKOing with Earthquake.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Swampert, especially those with Protect for Explosion, can deal with Shuca Heatran leads since Fire Blast and Earth Power never deal enough damage without a positive nature and/or a boosting item. Infernape can make quick work of Heatran with Close Combat. Gliscor and Aerodactyl outrun and aren't OHKO'd by Fire Blast while hitting back hard with Earthquake. Both also have Taunt to prevent Stealth Rock. Machamp and Dragonite are all outrun but always OHKO with respective Fighting attacks (Dragonite will OHKO with Earthquake as well) and are not OHKO'd by Fire Blast. Faster Sleep leads Roserade and Crobat can attempt to put Heatran to sleep since lead Heatran never runs Lum Berry. Mamoswine outruns and scores a OHKO with Earthquake 80% of the time. Tyranitar walls Heatran quite easily and makes quick work of it with Earthquake or Superpower.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: *****
    Lead: ***
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2010
  2. Witch of 'Cos

    Witch of 'Cos i love the pee pees

    So far this looks very good and well written. Few grammatical errors that I could see, and most pokemon you listed had been accurately described and countered. I look forward to seeing the conclusion to this.
     
  3. Rhys29

    Rhys29 Encore

    Page One
    Page Two

    Heracross
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Guts/Swarm
    Heracross has been spiraling down in usage for quite some time. Since more versatile sweepers like Salamence and priority sweepers such as Scizor have taken ahold of OU sweepers like Heracross have been replaced. Though Heracross can dish out the most powerful physical hits in the tier, its lack of Speed and priority have killed its usage. Both of Heracross' STAB attacks being resisted by the same types doesn't help Heracross either. Though Heracross has some useful bulk, it is still OHKO'd by weaker SE hits and Close Combat's defense drops don't help this. Even with these disadvantages holding Heracross back it shouldn't be underestimated and is still a dangerous foe to ignore. If you can't outrun a non-Choiced Heracross you're in for some hurt.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Flying, Ghost, and Poison wall Heracross' STAB attacks and are by far the most reliable counters and though Flying is considered the best of the three they must watch for Stone Edge. Gliscor is possibly the best counter out there since it can Roost off damage and gain a resistance to Heracross' only way to damage Gliscor, Stone Edge. Gliscor needs Aerial Ace or Fire Fang to deal with Heracross effectively and has issues with sets carrying Facade without them. Gyarados and Salamence have intimidate and score easy KO's with STAB or SE attacks. Zapdos has good defenses and can KO with Heat Wave. Weezing and Nidoqueen are the two best suited Poison-type counters for Heracross (Nidoqueen even resists Stone Edge) and both can hit back hard with Fire Blast. Ghost-type Dusknoir with Fire Punch and Rotom-H are great counters and have a useful Fighting immunity though they cannot rely on Will-O-Wisp due to Heracross' Guts ability. Steel-types that take neutral from STAB hits will make good counters since they tend to have high natural Defense and can soak up a hit or two depending on the set. Aerial Ace Dugtrio and Choice Scarf Heatran among others that outpace Heracross can revenge kill or switch in on a resisted hit. Hard hitting priority will make short work of Heracross from the likes of Scizor and Lucario, though Extremespeed from Lucario will not deal lethal damage without a Defense drop from Close Combat.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: *


    Hippowdon
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG]
    Ability:Sand Stream
    Hippowdon is the greatest physical tank in the 4th generation. With massive defense and HP Hippowdon has roughly 10% more physical defense than standard Skarmory. With an underrated base 112 Attack, STAB Earthquake rips up those weak to Ground. This makes Hippowdon an ideal check for threats like Metagross, Lucario, and Tyranitar. Hippowdon also has access to Roar and Slack Off, giving it phazing and reliable recovery. Combine this with its ability to set sand turn one and Stealth Rock in its movepool and you have a fantastic stall lead. However this is about all Hippowdon has and all you will be seeing from it. Low Special Defense and weakness to Grass Knot don't help Hippowdon's massive physical spectrum dependency. Ice Fang is one of the only other moves used on Hippowdon, the rest of its moves lie around 10% of all sets and include Curse, Stockpile, and Toxic.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Hippowdon's serious lack of special defense and Earthquake being its only true attacking option, special based attackers resistant or immune to Ground will slaughter Hippowdon as long as they avoid an uncommon SE attack. Examples include Latias, Salamence, and Gengar. Bronzong is by far the best Hippowdon counter there is since it resists everything but the unmentionable Fire Fang, is immune to Toxic, and hits hard with Grass Knot for a 2HKO. Skarmory is on the same boat and can Whirlwinds much faster than Hippowdon, Taunt it, or sets Spikes. Taunt Gyarados sets up on basically every set Hippowdon has and doesn't even have to be warry about the rare Stone Edge. Special Attack based Grass types will easily break Hippowdon, Celebi, Shaymin, and Tangrowth receive special mentions for high physical bulk and solid Special Attack. Bulky Waters will be able to force Hippowdon out easily but constant switching into Earthquake won't be healthy without a resistance (Ludicolo) or reliable healing like Slowbro or Vaporeon.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    Taunt is really all that needs to be said. Taunt breaks Hippowdon regardless and the lead position is the easiest to fit it into. Taunters with immunity to Ground are by far the best counters, Gliscor, Azelf, and Aerodactyl being prime examples. Any aforementioned counter works perfectly fine since its lead set is generally the same as its midgame set.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: *
    Lead: **


    Infernape
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Blaze
    Infernape is a versatile beast. It has one of the widest and most diverse movepools in the game. Infernape has offensive stats of 104 and a great base 108 Speed to outrun a huge amount of the metagame. Its signature is a mix sweeping/wall breaking set nicknamed the infamous MixApe. Infernape's STAB Close Combat and Fire Blast tear open teams from both sides while Grass Knot takes care of a large portion of bulky Water types. Nasty Plot provides a huge Special Attack boost on a switch and gives Infernape more than enough power to punch through even specially bulky foes like Gyarados and Togekiss. Infernape doesn't stop there, it can also run Swords Dance to set up and smash through foes with Close Combat, Flare Blitz, and Stone Edge. Or one could go a complete mix set, ignoring stat boosts, to cover holes in coverage. HP-Ice hits Dragon types hard, U-Turn scouts for counters and takes a massive chunk out of Starmie and Latias, Overheat works well for a hit and run, and Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave provide STAB priority. Infernape can also run Choice sets without much of an issue for extra power right away. Fake Out and Focus Sash-activated Blaze make Infernape a dangerous lead especially with a few other useful lead tactics, such as Endeaver, Taunt, and Encore. Infernape is nearly impossible to counter without knowing its set. Luckily it has very unimpressive defenses and Close Combat aids this.
    ~Counter Measures~
    Tentacruel is one of the best Infernape counters to date since it resists both STAB attacks and can easily take Grass Knots while firing off STAB SE Surfs. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Gyarados are solid Infernape counters though each loses to a respective set or move. Salamence is resistant to everything the standard Infernape uses however is always OHKO'd by +2 Fire Blast upon switching into Stealth Rock and some Infernape carry HP-Ice just for this coverage hole. Dugtrio can trap and KO Infernape with a timely revenge kill or predicting in on a set up move but must watch for Choice Scarf sets. Latias makes a great counter thanks to resistance to everything but HP-Ice which will fail to 2HKO with Stealth Rock while it outruns and can easily OHKO with Draco Meteor or Surf. Latias will be crushed by U-Turn however and will want to avoid it at all costs especially since a timely switch in from the likes of Weavile or Tyranitar could spell an early KO. Cresselia has enough bulk to prevent Infernape from OHKOing with any boosted STAB Fire attack but needs Psychic to deal any damage or Thunder Wave to cripple it. Anything faster with an SE attack can check Infernape, such as Choice Scarf Heatran, but will usually have to be warry about switching in and thus are best left to revenge killing.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    The only leads Infernape will really lose to are Hippowdon and Aerodactyl who will laugh at Fake Out and proceed to KO Infernape, Hippowdon working especially well to beat the rare Endeaver lead. Leads carrying Inner Focus to prevent Fake Out's flinch work very well since they tend to be able to score extremely powerful hits against Infernape. Crobat, Alakazam, Lucario, and Dragonite are great examples of this since those mentioned who lack priority outrun for a quick 2HKO.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: ****
    Lead: ****


    Jirachi
    [​IMG]
    Type:[​IMG][​IMG]
    Ability:Serene Grace
    Jirachi is one of the few Pokemon which can beat its counters just by being itself. Jirachi has the well spread base stat of 100 across the board, giving it above average stats in every area just like Celebi and Shaymin. Jirachi was originally a great bulky Calm Mind sweeper with access to Psychic and Thunderbolt, while also being able to heal itself and its teammates with Wish. Wish's usefulness improved in 4th gen with the addition of U-Turn. However recently it has taken a big directional switch and has taken on a new style thanks to Platinum tutors giving Jirachi Iron Head. With Serene Grace, Jirachi has become the new FlinchKiss. Thanks to Jirachi's great Speed, it makes arguably better use of Serene Grace but undeniably better use of Choice Scarf. With Trick and Stealth Rock Jirachi has become the most common Trick lead. Jirachi's high natural defenses provide it with plenty of bulk for taking hits on turns the opponent actually gets to attack and its typing provides plenty of resistances. Add in a resistance to Stealth Rock and you have a potent Choice item abuser. Through and through Jirachi is a tough foe to counter.
    ~Counter Measures~
    The only true straight up counter to date is Heatran who walls everything Jirachi throws at it besides the non-existant HP-Ground and deals massive damage with STAB Fire Blast. The only thing to watch for is Thunder Wave since Heatran won't be able to do much else the rest of the match. Snorlax and Tyranitar make solid counters with excellent Special Defense for Calm Mind sets and being able to threaten with Earthquake though neither like physical variants. Swampert, Gliscor, Metagross, Skarmory, Zapdos, and Gyarados all deal with physical variants well though all fall to special variants and Gliscor and Gyarados can't deal with physical x4 SE moves. Magnezone does well against all but the Substitute Calm Mind set, traps, walls, and crushes Jirachi. Magnezone also has the advantage of running Choice Scarf well and being able to trap and absorb Trick from Choice Scarf Jirachi. Hippowdon will beat physical sets, brushing off even SE hits, but must avoid Trick at all costs and offensive special variants tear it open. Bulky Waters deal with physical sets well but do not enjoy Thunderpunch/Thunderbolt, however Suicune has enough defense to brush off Thunderpunch.
    ~Counter Measures (Lead)~
    With Trick, Jirachi is a difficult to work around while still attempting to make your normal strategy works. Choice leads will make Jirachi's Trick attempts useless. Heatran does an excellent job of absorbing anything Jirachi's lead set can do and enjoys Choice Scarf. Dragonite can do well thanks to Inner Focus but it's very low Speed won't be helped when it absorbs the Choice Scarf. Do note its power will also be cut since Trick will go off first if you are carrying any damage boosting item. Swampert, Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong wall Jirachi to death but do not enjoy receiving Choice Scarf. Ninjask can set up on Jirachi immediately if it tries to Trick turn one and with Speed Boost doesn't fear Iron Head flinches. Choice Scarf Trick Metagross will take just about every Jirachi by surprise and allow you to set Stealth Rock as it is forced to switch out after being locked into Trick. If you don't really mind, your lead can simply absorb the Choice Scarf and set Stealth Rock before switching out though Jirachi will get to set Stealth Rock as well. Even though your lead may counter Jirachi, odds are it will U-Turn out and save itself for later so be prepared for this as well.
    ~Usage~
    Overall: *****
    Lead: ****
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2010
  4. Nielsspeler

    Nielsspeler Well-Known Member

    This should be a sticky ;)
     
  5. fschulze47

    fschulze47 Mighty Marvo

    I agree, this is very comprehensive and it'll help with both creating and rating teams for the OU metagame. My compliments!
     
  6. pastel

    pastel Viva el Reggaeton!

    Just pointing out a couple of things.
    Gyarados can be used as a lead, even if it does not stand out as one of it's most useful sets nor one of the most useful leads.
    As for dusknoir, adding heatran to the counters list is not the wisest choice, only those who carry shuca berry are good counters, since EQ is the most used move for him. Same goes to houndoom.
    Gengar, is also a good lead, even tough since hypnosis' accuracy being lower, it has lost part of its effectiveness.
    Dragonite is not that bad as a lead, it's one incredible anti lead. You pointed azelf can explode once it sets up SR, however, dragonite got ES, so he does not have the time to explode. He takes down swampert with DM, if he is against metagross, a simple variation in the EVs can change everything. Adding just 8 EVs into speed makes standart lead dragonite faster than standart lead metagross, so it is possible to 2HKO with EQ, and if it is not holding occa berry, OHKO with fire blast.
    I think thats all.
     
  7. Rhys29

    Rhys29 Encore

    So you're saying Gyarados is a bad lead. If I am to be as general as I can about each threat I have to cover a little bit but not all of it. Since you agree that it is not only poorly suited to lead but it is also a bad lead set, then there is no point bringing it up. Every Pokemon in OU can lead, I don't see the point of listing all of them when those who do it exceptionally better are more common and thus deserve to be mentioned as a threat. The lead %'s are so widespread I find little use in going over each possible candidate who can lead.
    Earthquake is used on 37% of all Dusknoir, being used about as much as Shadow Sneak, which pales in comparison to Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split, both which reside in the low 70's. Simply put, Earthquake is not Dusknoir's most used move. Seeing as how Will-O-Wisp is used on 71% of all sets and only 9% use the other dangerous move, Focus Punch, I wouldn't make the assumption Heatran and Houndoom aren't counter measures for dealing with Dusknoir.
    See Gyarados. If it's not in the top 20 I don't see the need to list it as a lead threat.
    First, I believe you mean the word 'standard' on several points in this argument. Second, please do tell me where I had listed Dragonite as a non-suitable anti-lead. It is between 15-20 in the most used leads and thus deserved a mention. Which I gave. Thirdly, I hope you realize 8 Speed Dragonite ties standard 8 Speed Metagross.


    I have to consider you skimmed the post. Next time you have comments about the posts please PM me so we don't spam up this thread. If you find grammatical errors or find any misspellings please do the same.

    I am glad you all think this is helpful. Though I am a bit tied up and will be for a little bit, I will keep adding a new threat (alphabetically of course) every once in a while.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  8. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

    Seems good so far, but I would remove the "lead" ratings. Seriously Dragonite, Forretress and Bronzong as "ONE" star leads? Dragonite absolutely rapes literally ALL leads with some combo of items and moves. Forretress sets up on Swampert, Skarmory, Metagross and wipes Aerodactyl out with Gyro Ball + Rapid Spin. Bronzong isn't the BEST, but does well against pretty much everything that lacks a STAB Fire move and even then it will survive one depending on its EVs and just set up Trick Room or whatever. It does sort of suck as a non lead, but isn't terrible at that either. Set up rocks and blow up. Maybe wall some things and kill Salamence too.

    Your descriptions are fantastic, but I would "balance" the stars thing a little. Aerodactyl two star non-lead while Dusknoir only one star? Ok yeah Aerodactyl is a pretty solid Roost / Taunter in sand due to its ability to revenge kill and annihilate most Heatran but Dusknoir is a pretty decent tank. EQ / Ice Punch / Will-O-Wisp is pretty hard to switch in on. Heracross one star? Its not THAT bad of a Scarfer.

    Eh mostly nitpicks. I'm not so sure Heatran is only a two star lead when Gliscor is a 4 when Gliscor has to U-turn out of most threats while running Taunt and then be forced to drop one of Stealth Rocks / Earthquake or Roost.


    Well written guide. Keep at it!
     
  9. calze6

    calze6 Reclaiming da ladder

    Rhys was pointing out the usage. As a result, it is graded by formula, not opinion.
     
  10. Rhys29

    Rhys29 Encore

    Perhaps I should make that more clear, though I thought the section title of 'Usage' would say it enough. The star rating system is determined upon the threats current shoddy stats, not on how good the Pokemon actually is. This does a better job at preparing someone for the tier in my mind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  11. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

    In which case its fine. IGNORE ME
     
  12. pkmtrainer

    pkmtrainer Active Member

    Hi I´m not good at rating and all that sort of thing, but strongar has become pretty popular, and scizor, weavile, scarf ttar... fear at HP fire/focus blast because he has a sub. I´d suggest you to add in counters, dual screen jirachi/heatproof sassy bronzong, (I mean with a heavy investments) because 252hp/172spD zong takes ~45 % from HP fire (I cant beleive I´m calling it a counter)
     
  13. Taumcross

    Taumcross Member

    Woa. now I'm scared XD lol
     
  14. Rhys29

    Rhys29 Encore

    I managed to nab a bit of time to work on this. A few updates: three more threats added and the rest of the guide has been updated with April's statistics.
     
  15. Wizard of 'Cos

    Wizard of 'Cos Hi I'm Joe

    Pastel!!!

    You can post in succinct statements and correct english now!!!!!!!

    Omgwtfbbq lulz ima get an infractionzorz bcos you can't handle my pro-ness

    Looks like a very good guide Rhys, looks like you can't leave Pokemon alone, huh.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2010
  16. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    Mmhmm....should help those wanting to make good OU teams...
     
  17. Utopian

    Utopian faults & feats

    i think suicune should be on this list. corcune sweeps if ur opp. doesnt have a water absorb poke, and the timid cune set is beast as well (;
     
  18. JZ2DLimit

    JZ2DLimit New Member

    So, my infernape is:
    Item: Expert Belt
    EV: 252 HP + ATK
    Moves:
    Swords Dance
    Flare Blitz
    Close Combat
    Stone Edge

    Should I have Earthquake in place for Swords Dance?
     
  19. ShadowKyogre443

    ShadowKyogre443 오션 마스터

    Yes, yes you should.
     
  20. Puscen

    Puscen New Member

    All of them are so cute. I wish I would have them all.
     
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