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Over the Top! (079)

UnovaMaster

Well-Known Member
This was probably better than the Kleavor battle, but still while watching live I was kind of snoozing at the battle, are they still going to be tag trio-ing battles when they're all fully evolved?

I contribute the 12 pages to you all doing nothing the last 3 weeks and having a pent up need to jumpstart 2025 with an electrical fire
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I think they're being deliberately obtuse and looking for a way to spin it into some kind of error in logic or bad writing. Your words are easy to understand, they just have zero desire to understand. They've been camping in this thread for the whole damn day, lashing out at anyone who liked this episode. It's pathetic and childish, in particular their obsession with uplifting Ash while putting down Liko/Roy/Dot.
Oh my god the amount of hypocrisy and self projection you’re throwing our way just because you can’t handle that not everyone has your opinion or a favourable outlook on this episode is hilarious but at this point downright insane.

Dude, YOU are the one who attacked us. I hadn’t even quoted anyone or mentioned Ash (I had just talked about this moment being worse than JN powerscaling), YOU were the one who immediately quoted me to PUT DOWN Ash while uplift Liko, where is the self reflection??? You were the one who started that argument in the first place and CONSTANTLY keeps bringing that up and shading others by editing ur posts instead of properly engaging with them and when you don’t have anything to say decide to be toxic and a massive ahole because god forbid anyone disagrees. Me and @nuzamaki90 weren’t even toxic, just stating our displeasure at the episode. We could have easily been as toxic as people were when JN was airing but guessing by your immature behaviour that would have probably given you an aneurysm. The funny thing is that I really like Liko so the self victimising card you’re trying to play just falls flat on your face. Its actually incredible how dense you are being here.
…..I just wanna say the same people who were complaining that Roy defeated two Paldea Gym leaders after rematches are the same people defending Liko defending its Champion. Do with this what you want
But hey, it isn’t stan bias whatsoever no sir.
Nobody said the writing made perfect sense, but you're trying to make it far worse than it already is by claiming that Floragato took a full-powered blow to the face and still survived, while ignoring the fact that some of the impact was absorbed by Quaxwell and Crocalor. If you want to argue that it's bad writing, then please feel free to do so, but don't be dishonest.
I think our point is that we get that Crocalor and Quaxwell lessened the impact, but the damage Floragato took still should have been enough for her considering Geeta was who they were battling. Of course not everyone agrees on that but based on established strength paramters so far its just jarring to see Floragato survive all that while Glimmora goes down in 3 moves (More on that later)
All it takes is going through some of the past episode post threads to show that. Complaining about plot armor wins and using that as justification for plot armor wins of characters you like is strange.

At least be a real person and say “hey I stan this character and therefore I’m gonna enjoy whatever writing and wins the show gives us and that’s it” but to try to then bash people over the head with that opinion like it’s an objective fact is crazy work. Just say you like Liko and therefor you’re happy for her development and leave it at that. Because it’s very clear when other characters get wins or something “similar” to what she gets you dislike it.

Ash defeating Cynthia with a mega evolved Lucario he’s been training almost 120+ episodes into its series is ridiculous but Liko’s starter coming fresh off from a string of loses 70 episodes into the series beating Getta makes sense? Like either all or none of it makes sense.
Thank you! I remember you vividly criticising JN Powerscaling all the time, esp with Iris, so you’re being consistent here not just coz it affected ur bias which is Iris. Unlike someone else here
I personally didn't think Ash beating Cynthia was that bad either.

Experience wise, sure it makes no sense for these 10 years old kids to be beating adults who have been doing this professionally for years. But this is something inherent to the franchise, like children traveling the world alone or dismantling the mafia
See you and @Liko2024 have been really fun to discuss this with because even if we are on opposing viewpoints Ive never felt that the talks have been disingenuous at all and I get your viewpoints too, its just on the fundamental level I guess I disagree with them. But yeah the experience point you mentioned is what I wanted to properly elucidate on earlier, its a franchise staple for people with years of experience to eventually be toppled by the youngsters after hard work and creating proper bonds with the pokemon they train. Plus its not like in the prior series just coz he’s 10 there hasn’t been a long period of time of him training and growing from different regions with even in series its stated months pass for different events.
I’m crying Alder really is the only Champion (well discounting Nemona as of right now that is) that was never defeated on screen.
Another way you can see it is that he’s the only Champion who was discarded to be defeated off screen without ever showing it :(

Honestly Alder is the main character who I loved in the games but was treated horrendously in the anime.
Geeta was obviously testing the kids more than anything...so, what's the problem?
Because the test was a pokemon battle they had to win….. and Geeta’s entire character is that she doesn’t know how to hold back in pokemon battles. This excuse will work on anyone else BUT her.
This is certainly a thread huh.
The way I see it, it was a 3v3 where 2 of one of the teams were first stage pokemon that aren't even on her actual team.
I'd agree with the complaints if one of the kids won in like, a 1v1 against Geeta but that isn't what happened.
(Also Tera boosted moves are treated as a lot stronger here than they are in the games which is important to remember.)
The tera blast that got overpowered by Floragato was Tera boosted too btw. Also, we don’t know her actual team since the anime doesn’t always have the same as in the games but even then just coz they are first stage doesn’t mean much in the anime esp when they did give the trio a hard time. Not to mention their memento (Now Ill have to rewatch to see if Floragato also got memento’ed or not but I think she did which means she was already weakened)
I mean, it'd be one thing if Horizons had already estabilished champions as godlike beings, but this is their first real display within this continuity. I guess if you consider this as an extension of Ash series then i can see where you are coming from, but even before DP champions were treated so badly they rarely appeared, battled or were relevant in any way lol
I mean Lance had a much more powerful showing than this. He easily swatted away Team rocket grunts that were more competent than Trio, destroyed a TR executive in battle and stopped the Rampaging gyarados. He then of course also helped stop Team Aqua and Magma. Much more impressive than Geeta’s first showing. Even in Diantha’s first showing she defeated a trainer and curbstomped Ash while being shown to have an insane bond with her gardevoir. Even Alder who honestly was the worst showcasing before this completely destroyed a Trip who was at his peak strength.

Compare that with Geeta’s first showing today, Geeta is shown insanely weak here.
Well, Lance hardly appeared in Johto, being there just to mess with Team Rocket. Steven might aswell have been a CoD in AG lol
They had a boost in importance after DP, but before that it was clear they weren't as relevant as in the games for over 10 years.

Just saying, i wouldn't call their representation much better, even if Horizons estabilishes a new power scaling where champions aren't as powerful as portrayed in Ash's series post DP, especially considering Paldea has multiple of them.
That would hold true if the trio were shown to be properly above atleast gym leader… which is honestly very hard to say based on their showing until now.
I do understand both perspectives but Glimmora fainting doesn't mean Geeta is particularly weak at least based on what information we have imo because if she's using two random Glimmets, it's plausible that this isn't her strongest Glimmora. But it's also possible that the direction for writing in Horizons is fine having strong trainers/Pokemon lose if the kids are using good enough strategies. I'd honestly favor the former of the two though, even if it's just for the sake of consistency. The kids can be good trainers, but we've seen characters portrayed/expected to be way more experienced and competent than them get their **** pushed in against trainers with titles so this result is understandably kind of jarring especially given that none of them are seasoned trainers or competing in a league which is why I'm much more inclined to believe that this isn't Geeta's main Glimmora. Because if we're being honest, if this was like Leon's Charizard, Cynthia's Garchomp, Steven's Metagross, etc. regardless of whatever strategy the kids used you'd expect them to still get no diff'd. But the anime has always been fairly wonky with powerscaling...


Side note: I think people forget/don't realize that a lot of rhetoric and stigma against Geeta and Diantha in particular stems from what people experienced in the games. In a similar sense, it's also a reason why Cynthia in particular has always generally been seen as one of/the strongest champion prior to Sword & Shield (and Journeys) declaring Leon as that trainer.

X and Y were genuinely breezes to play through in part because the game gave you so many hand outs (on top of your Kalos starter, you get a Kanto starter with a mega stone, a Lucario with a mega stone, Torchic with a mega stone (via mystery gift)) and the exp. share made you super overleveled by the time you reach the Elite Four. Diantha also just had a really underwhelming team in-game (slow dragon type in Tyrantrum that'd faint to any super-effective special move, slow rock/Ice type Aurorus, worst psuedo-mon in Goodra, Gourgeist just a general shitmon, leaving her with Hawlucha and Mega Gardevoir which didn't even have Hyper Voice to make use of Pixilate). She's also just not really present during most of the game/does nothing in regards to dealing with Team Flare aside from saying she disagrees with Lysandre's view.

Scarlet and Violet kinda runs into the same issue where you'd genuinely have to avoid a lot of trainer battles to not end up being overleveled by the time you do the champion assessment and those games in particular, GF made no real effort to make the opponents very strong. And then once you reach Geeta, her team is composed of mid to ****-tier mons like Avalugg and Veluza because they wanted her team to be thematic even if the mons were genuinely bad for the point of the game you're facing them.

Cynthia in D/P/P on the other hand has mons that are all at least decent/viable for the generation they're inand they all have 30 ivs. You're also not going to be overleveled or even at the same level as the Elite 4 and champion without grinding before hand. This is basically the case for pretty much every champion except Geeta and Diantha in particular.

Narratively, you can admit the glaring issues with this episode's result if we're to assume this is Geeta's main Glimmora. Champions are portrayed as the strongest in the region and losing the first battle we see her in against Liko/Roy/Dot can create a lot of problems, even if she was mainly assessing their strength for Area 0.
Honestly the fact that you guys have to headcanon that Glimmora isnt her main for whatever reason just for this to make more sense when there has been nothing shown at all to indicate that is a huge sign that the writing wasn’t at all believable.
ok yeah saw it and the whole fight did really feel like it was more of a test to see if they're capable of getting into AZ, though yeah that final clash was definitely iffy

Either way an excuse to get this meme out of cryo
Gg9A4xsXEAAVZe3
Ah man…. You know I was so happy when Geeta was first revealed that we have an Indian champion, let’s gooo. Only to be utterly disappointed by her in the games and then the anime giving her the worst performance of any champion yet as well.
What do you mean without the damage lol?? Floragato landed Sucker and the finishing blow. Two out of the three moves that ended up KOing Glimmora, and considering the finishing blow was a 2x SE Overgrow+Tera boosted Magical Leaf, I don’t think anyone would even think of arguing that Liko didn’t do the majority of the damage to secure the W haha.

Finally, I’m not gonna keep repeating myself about this whole “testing” nonsense lol. You guys convinced yourselves of this in order to justify the end result.
Like Geeta is the one character this testing bs doesn’t hold water for, its ridiculous dude.
It didn't just "contribute", it was outright pointed out that that hit would've knocked out Kiraflor had it not been for the Memento debuff substantially reducing how much damage it dealt.
…. You do realise that makes it worse right? That a non stab 150 attack ground type move by Roy can one shot the champion’s ace?
 

Articfoxgamez

I Exist.
The tera blast that got overpowered by Floragato was Tera boosted too btw. Also, we don’t know her actual team since the anime doesn’t always have the same as in the games but even then just coz they are first stage doesn’t mean much in the anime esp when they did give the trio a hard time. Not to mention their memento (Now Ill have to rewatch to see if Floragato also got memento’ed or not but I think she did which means she was already weakened)
There were only two glimmet so only Crocalor and Quaxwell got Memento'ed. I presume thats why the tera situation went how it did.
Crocalor and Quaxwell weren't able to overpower the Tera Blast because they were weakened (Despite water beating ground), however Floragato did due to grass being strong against ground plus not having that stat decrease plus having Overgrow active.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
There were only two glimmet so only Crocalor and Quaxwell got Memento'ed. I presume thats why the tera situation went how it did.
Crocalor and Quaxwell weren't able to overpower the Tera Blast because they were weakened (Despite water beating ground), however Floragato did due to grass being strong against ground plus not having that stat decrease plus having Overgrow active.
Yeah I thought so was just waiting for that confirmation.
That makes it better but still not believable in my eyes that even with a type advantage and Overgrow, Liko’s Floragato should overpower Geeta’s ace
 

Blue Saturday

Violet Prince❤️
The battle choreography in this episode shared the same issues as the Basagiri fight—non-dynamic, clunky, and slow due. This constant talking between the action felt like it disrupted the flow and reduced the intensity of the fight. I wasn't particularly moved by the music score either, although the animation and art were solid. Much like the Basagiri fight, there’s something inherently low-stakes about watching three trainers team up against a single opponent, especially so late in the game. At some point, it feels like trainers need to stand on their own in battles, as the constant team-ups make the fights feel cheap and less personal.

The strategic elements and game mechanics were interesting, but the battle overall didn’t live up to expectations. Omadaka’s Terastallization scene and her ability to finally showcase her skills were appreciated, but her portrayal in the battle left a lot to be desired. Her Pokémon should’ve been stronger and more durable, considering she’s the Top Champion, and yet she went down much too quickly. Despite the Elite Four praising her ferocity and the episode trying to build her up as a formidable opponent, it felt more like they were telling the audience how challenging the battle was rather than showing it. The use of Memento to sacrifice her two Pokémon felt like a narrative choice to clear the way for the climax. Nyarote’s survival after taking poison and a Terastalized Tera Blast, and then winning a beam struggle against Omadaka's ace, just felt like an unrealistic turn of events that took me out of the experience.

While it was nice for Liko to get a win after her performance in the Terastal Debut arc, the way it played out didn't feel earned. Nyarote, being a Grass-type, is typically at a disadvantage against most Pokémon, but still I'm not sure if was best to give her a blatant overpowering match-up victory against the ace of the Top Champion of Orange Academy using the main gimmick of Paldea. This victory didn’t feel like a culmination of growth, but more like a checkbox being ticked off, with Omadaka being defeated without much of a compelling struggle.

PM2023 has often felt more story-driven than competitive, but this episode highlighted that disconnect for me. I didn’t outright hate the episode, but I found myself indifferent to the outcome, which is a shame because I had higher expectations for this arc. Normally, I’m not so critical of it, but the constant cutaway scenes and dialogue commentary from the peanut gallery were distracting and awkward. It was a stark contrast to more fluid battles like Liko vs. Roy in the Terastal Debut arc, where the animation felt more focused on the spectacle rather than saving on animation budget with dialogue-heavy interruptions. Overall, the pacing and storytelling in this arc just haven’t been hitting the mark for me, and it’s left me feeling a lack of hype for what should have been a climactic moment.

It is nice Liko got a kill at least.
 

Queen Cynthia

Dignified Queen of Sinnoh
(12 pages already? Wow! Please forgive me for not being able to read through all of them. All that bickering got a bit annoying)
So let's get started.

I was really looking forward to a new epiosde after a longer break...and was disappointed.
In short: Geeta was underwhelming and must easily be the weakest champion so far besides Alder, the battle was poorly written (the trio's genius moments couldn't really make uop for that, either) and the worst thing was how power levels/scaling was completely off.
Let me give a few examples:
The kids effortlessly using Kleavor's strategy was not realistic. As it was shown in the respective epsiode, it probably takes many months or even years of training to successfully master that. Not just "hey let's use that" and it'll magically work. Also, why did only Floragato have to dodge? What happened to the other two? Just taking the hit that could easily have taken them out?
Geeta carelessly sacrificed her two Glimmet too soon against standard trainers that usually don't pose such a big threat to a so-called "top" champion so that the sacrifice would be justified. This was the first mistake. And although Geeta massively lowered Crocalor's attack stats with Memento, Liko, by making Crocalor angry, managed to undo a 2x drop in power pretty easily (A little bit would somehow make sense, but not that much). The second mistake in a row in my eyes. But even if we're willing to believe all that, Crocalor's power level could only have been restored to normal at best, but not boosted. Still, Geeta said her Glimmora had taken "massive damage". Seriously? Your ace taking massive damage from a normally powered move from a Pokemon that isn't even fully evolved? Are you that weak, "top" champion Geeta? What happened to your "Let me show you why I'm at the top" comment? Cynthia would never have said something like that.
Finally, while it was perfectly plausible for the Terastallized Tera Blast to immediately take out Crocalor and Quaxwell, it seemed absolutely forced and unrealistic how Floragato was able to take that attack, overpower the second Tera Blast and even defeat Glimmora. And no, Overgrow mustn't be used as an excuse to justify anything. After all, we're talking about the not even fully evolved Pokemon of a skilled but still ordinary trainer against the ace(!) of the so-called "top" champion. Geeta said, it was "all that she's got". Seriously? For me this was the lowpoint of an episode full of flawed power levels.
Plus, it gets even worse if you consider how miserably Liko failed against Grusha not that long ago. Trying to justify her win today with those few training battles Liko's been having since then is no plausible explanation for suddenly being able to beat the "top" champion who's supposed to be much stronger than Grusha.

To sum it up: I'm not denying the kids had some great genius moments. That was nice but for plausibility's sake, it should have been far from being enough to beat a champion. And it won't fix or justify the fact that power levels were terribly inconsistent and wrong today.
The thing is, this is exactly what happens if the writers come up with the wrong requirements. We all knew Liko, Roy and Dot were going to Area Zero anyways. So, them having to beat the highest ranked trainer of the region first can only result in forced battles with predictable outcome and logic being dismissed. And that's just what we saw today. What a waste of potential if you ask me.

He's an experienced trainer, but that means little when his team is fresh. His Lucario is a literal baby mon that he only managed to train throughout one series. By comparison, Cynthia has been raising her Garchomp since she was a kid, and was previously presented as an untouchable Champion that no one could ever scratch. Oh, also her Garchomp conveniently didn't have its ground type or fire type moves that it had in DP. Hmm, I wonder why.

There's no way to rationalize the dumpster fire that was the PWC. Stop trying.

PWC was a blatant fanservice tournament where the power of plot commanded that Ash wins, all logic and reason was entirely dismissed.

Three trainers managing to beat a single Geeta Pokemon is about a billion times more realistic than Ash's Lucario somehow being giga powerful and managing to withstand and overcome two of Cynthia's Pokemon. JN was just super poorly written.
Oh, I really need to tell you this must be the greatest post of yours that I've read here so far. I totally agree!
Ash "defeating" Cynthia, especially Garchomp vs Lucario, was the absolute lowpoint of the Anime, a forced battle free from logic, dictated by the plot and the most terrible day for fans of Cynthia, the true Champion!
(But I better not go into detail here because it would be offtopic and the thread has become long enough already)
 
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Liko2024

Well-Known Member
it seemed absolutely forced and unrealistic how Floragato was able to take that attack
It's not unrealistic, as she didn't take the full power of the attack, since the attack was softened due to Quaxwell and Crocalor softening or absorbing the impact
 

vondecayle

Geeta is utterly incapable of holding back.
I wasn’t expecting Roy’s, Dot’s and Liko’s combined strength to be on par with a top champion’s pokemon at this point in the story. I was expecting this to be the typical battle where they show progress despite being defeated against a much stronger opponent. I guess Roy will be able to defeat Rayquaza after all, something I thought impossible at the beginning of Horizons.

PD: I love Glimmora’s cry!
 
I guess Roy will be able to defeat Rayquaza after all, something I thought impossible at the beginning of Horizons.
Well, if you check the special preview, you can see Black Rayquaza lodged inside a cliff, as if a powerful force pushed it into it, with Crocalor Flame Charging towards it. I doubt Roy will do it by himself, and I especially suspect Terapagos to be a huge help in that battle.

Once again, just because Liko/Roy/Dot managed to barely defeat a single Geeta Pokemon with their forces combined (and boosts on top of that), doesn't mean they're suddenly able to conquer legendary Pokemon on their own. It just means that they've grown more competent and stronger, they're not suddenly Champion-tier trainers. The battle simply proved they can handle dealing with Paradox Pokemon if they unite forces.
 

vondecayle

Geeta is utterly incapable of holding back.
Once again, just because Liko/Roy/Dot managed to barely defeat a single Geeta Pokemon with their forces combined (and boosts on top of that), doesn't mean they're suddenly able to conquer legendary Pokemon on their own. It just means that they've grown more competent and stronger, they're not suddenly Champion-tier trainers.
True and I don’t think that individually they would be able to achieve what they just did here. I’m just thinking that if the writers are willing to let trainers do things that were previously unimaginable by many, then maybe being able to go on par with a legendary might be something they have on the table for this adventure.
 
True and I don’t think that individually they would be able to achieve what they just did here. I’m just thinking that if the writers are willing to let trainers do things that were previously unimaginable by many, then maybe being able to go on par with a legendary might be something they have on the table for this adventure.
For sure. Individually they wouldn't stand a chance. That's why I feel this episode does a good job of representing Geeta. Geeta is not a weak Champion in any sense of the word, and she could have won if she actually wanted to win (as noted in this episode), but she deliberately kept going, granting the kids a chance for victory. Nor did the episode depict Geeta as feeling cornered in any moment of the episode. She was simply cool and cheerful throughout, applauding the efforts made by the kids. At the end of the day, this battle served as a test, and the kids passed it. I wish more people highlighted the clever tricks employed by our characters instead of ranting about powerscaling like lunatics.
 

Sham

Okay but Wistoria is actually so peak
If I’m being completely honest I’m glad that Crocolar didn’t land the final hit and knocked it out. Like yea as a Roy fan it would’ve felt nice but overall it would’ve been unfulfilling since I don’t consider Ryme or Brassius to be anywhere near the level of Getta (well at least until recently) and it took him time to defeat them.

It’s akin to if Axew had been evenly matched with Garchomp and banging against her (well their initial match that is) like yes I would’ve felt somewhat happy but in the grand scheme of things it’s shallow because nothing I’ve saw Axew do in the series justifies that even happening.

If this had occurred during off screen land or a time skip then that’s fair game but explicitly showing them struggle against Klevanor, Entei and winning multiple gym challenges not even a couple of months ago just makes the entire scene awkward
 

Liko2024

Well-Known Member
If I’m being completely honest I’m glad that Crocolar didn’t land the final hit and knocked it out. Like yea as a Roy fan it would’ve felt nice but overall it would’ve been unfulfilling since I don’t consider Ryme or Brassius to be anywhere near the level of Getta (well at least until recently) and it took him time to defeat them.

It’s akin to if Axew had been evenly matched with Garchomp and banging against her (well their initial match that is) like yes I would’ve felt somewhat happy but in the grand scheme of things it’s shallow because nothing I’ve saw Axew do in the series justifies that even happening.

If this had occurred during off screen land or a time skip then that’s fair game but explicitly showing them struggle against Klevanor, Entei and winning multiple gym challenges not even a couple of months ago just makes the entire scene awkward
Geeta literally admitted Crocalor could've one shoted her after being amped
 

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
Just to point it out: I hated the sudden Ash power up in journeys more. Because while we can still say Geeta could've let Liko win her fight, there is none for a couple of random Pokemon Ash caught in journeys suddenly beating champion tier Pokemon while Ash in prior series couldnt even even beat Pokemon of the E4 members.

And its quite baffling me the fandom wasnt that enraged back then in the Master Tournament.
 
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Banjou

Well-Known Member
Just to point it out: I hated the sudden Ash power up in journeys more. Because while we can still say Geeta could've let Liko win her fight, there is none for a couple of random Pokemon Ash caught in journeys suddenly beating champion tier Pokemom while Ash in prior series couldnt even even beat Pokemon of the E4 members.

And its quite baffling me the fandom wasnt that enraged back then in the Master Tournament.
that's because A wasn't much weaker than them xyz and in sm he was presumably already on the same playing field
presumably better if not
I changed teams between the seventh and eighth generations and most of the Pokémon in journeys were not rookies
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
12 pages? Good to see things haven’t changed around here lol.

Anyways I liked it, the strategy was very interesting and well thought out.

And its quite baffling me the fandom wasnt that enraged back then in the Master Tournament.
Probably because the vast majority of people thought it was long overdue for Ash to be battling at that level
 
I'm not going to read all your debate but Geeta is the easiest champions ever, even Diantha or Kukui/Hau were more struggling.

But lhis episode comfirms something that we all knew but wasn't official, HZ is set after S/V post game timeline.
 

Trey pokes

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to read all your debate but Geeta is the easiest champions ever, even Diantha or Kukui/Hau were more struggling.

But lhis episode comfirms something that we all knew but wasn't official, HZ is set after S/V post game timeline.
Very much feels like it and the past episodes too.
 
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