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Over the Top! (079)

And its quite baffling me the fandom wasnt that enraged back then in the Master Tournament.
What's even more baffling is that people are defending that writing right now.

Like, sorry, no amount of twisting the narrative will make it make sense that Ash raised a freshly hatched Riolu into a Champion-tier Lucario that can apparently stand against veteran Champions who have been raising their Pokemon since before Ash was even born. It's probably one of the most insulting things to come out of Journeys. The second most insulting thing was bringing back Ash's Infernape, explicitly stating that his Infernape has a strong desire to fight strong opponents, and then doing absolutely f-ing nothing with that. Infernape, with the established motive to get stronger, within a series where Ash gets to fights strong opponents, ends up appearing for an episode and then disappearing. It's like the writing staff had an inkling of an idea, and then suffered brain damage and forgot what they were doing at that point.
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Probably because the vast majority of people thought it was long overdue for Ash to be battling at that level
Cmon man you were in the trenches too, people were absolutely shitting on M8 and how JN handled powerscaling. It just died down in the end coz we already had it pre established how the powerscaling is gonna be with Iris and the rest, but even then there were some people shitting on the Leon battle with Ash, let alone the prior ones. Lets please not pretend the revisionist history that JN didnt receive hate but suddenly HZ is holds any water. There hasn’t really been any proper hating at all in this thread, in fact the other way around with people getting toxic and accusatory just coz some (the minority in this thread atleast) didn’t like what happened.
But lhis episode comfirms something that we all knew but wasn't official, HZ is set after S/V post game timeline.
Eh? Didn’t we know this already since Penny is working for Geeta, there was an ‘incident’ in area zero and Briar had already seen a terapagos in Area Zero?
Like, sorry, no amount of twisting the narrative will make it make sense that Ash raised a freshly hatched Riolu into a Champion-tier Lucario that can apparently stand against veteran Champions who have been raising their Pokemon since before Ash was even born.
As opposed to Liko, a fresh newbie trainer, raising a fresh starter Spirigato into such a strong floragato it can overpower a champion ace just due to overgrow and a type advantage, standing against veteran Champions who have been raising their pokemon since before Liko was even born.


Bro this has to be trolling atp coz like what? XD

But hey, its us who are maniacs and keep bringing up Ash to uplift him and downplay Liko and the others right?
Denser than a hundred bricks atp istg
 

Queen Cynthia

Dignified Queen of Sinnoh
It's not unrealistic, as she didn't take the full power of the attack, since the attack was softened due to Quaxwell and Crocalor softening or absorbing the impact
Sorry, but you have to read my whole sentence and can't just quote the first part of it. I wrote:
it seemed absolutely forced and unrealistic how Floragato was able to take that attack, overpower the second Tera Blast and even defeat Glimmora.
An ordinary trainer with a not even fully evovled Pokemon who just recently failed miserably against a gym leader suddenly defeating a "top champion's" ace...How absurd and far-fetched is that?
Considering that it was for all for the plot's sake so that they could go to Area Zero even makes it worse: Not just absurd but also forced and cheap. It's that terribly poor way of treating champions before and after DP that happened in this episode once again, and it's frustrating!
And it's even more frustrating because it's the exact same bad situation like with Ash vs. Cynthia:
The same unexperienced but suddenly overpowered Pokemon on the challenger's side, the same inconsistent and arbitrary power levels and the same forced result, dictated by the plot.

, and she could have won if she actually wanted to win (as noted in this episode), but she deliberately kept going, granting the kids a chance for victory.
I'm afraid I have to disagree here.
Geeta made it clear that first, she can't hold back in battle and that second, her Terastallized Glimmora is all (or the best) that she's got. So, it was officially confirmed that she went all out and didn't intend to give the trio a pity badge. But honestly, if that's all she can do...well that's pretty poor if you ask me.

You're really heavily bias due to your username, but calling that battle "free from logic" is absurd. The battle wasn't the greatest, but logic wise two worn down pokemon from previous battles and Ash winning with Reversal was the best strategy of the show and only realistic way to win.
Well, it is only "realistic" if you neglect three obvious facts:
1) Baby Lucario vs. Veteran Garchomp that has been trained all her life. Or as @Kazuniya perfectly put it:
Like, sorry, no amount of twisting the narrative will make it make sense that Ash raised a freshly hatched Riolu into a Champion-tier Lucario that can apparently stand against veteran Champions who have been raising their Pokemon since before Ash was even born. It's probably one of the most insulting things to come out of Journeys.
2) Garchomp's moveset that has "conveniently" (or should I say accidentially) been changed so Ash and his pseudo DEM Lucario had an advantage.
3) Cynthia obviously not being allowed to megaevolve her ace. And it was all "justified" by Sirfetchd (another baby compared to Garchomp) landing one hit on Garchomp and the latter having to rest. (Plus, they couldn't even be bothered to handle Togekiss' massive speed boost properly or cleverly) Sure, as if Garchomp wasn't able to singlehandedly take out both of them. Instead ,they rather decided to come up with outrageous excuses in order to deliberately limit Cynthia's power.

Cynthia's Garchomp got thrown around by Caitlin's Gothielle,
Which was offficially confirmed to be an exhibition match. Of course, you're not supposed to go all out an wipe the floor with your opponent here but give the audience a good show instead.
couldn't beat the Genie weather trio and got knocked to the ground
The major legendary Pokemon are not supposed to be beaten by anybody. Remember how Leon, Cynthia's only serious competitor, got beaten badly by Eternatus?

Cynthia's Garchomp was never meant to be unstoppably strong.
It was! At least throughout DP. After that glorious era they started to treat champions more and more poorly, a development that had its low point in the PWC.

Well, if you check the special preview, you can see Black Rayquaza lodged inside a cliff,
Just asking out of curiosity: Which special preview do you mean? (I maybe missed it somehow)
 
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AuraChannelerChris

"What the hell...?"
And its quite baffling me the fandom wasnt that enraged back then in the Master Tournament.
By that point, the fandom was just desperate for Ash to win something big (I mean, we all did) after two decades so a lot of people were just numb to his big wins that they let go anything weird about it (...as in, Ash using all his gimmicks + an extra dose of G-Max from the Eternatus they had in the same stadium for some reason).

But anyhow, that's luckily behind in the past.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
It was! At least throughout DP. After that glorious era they started to treat champions more and more poorly, a development that had its low point in the PWC

Bias aside, that's a fault of the DP saga that Kalos rectified, cause if Greninja could knock the daylights out of a champion's ace when it was only one region trained with a super mode, I don't see why JN's Lucario couldn't do the same.

Let me ask this, what if Cynthia was in Geeta's place and lost, what would your rection be then?

Either way this fanning of the flames of war needs to stop.

If I’m being completely honest I’m glad that Crocolar didn’t land the final hit and knocked it out. Like yea as a Roy fan it would’ve felt nice but overall it would’ve been unfulfilling since I don’t consider Ryme or Brassius to be anywhere near the level of Getta (well at least until recently) and it took him time to defeat them.

poor kid don't need any more hatred than he already has.
 

Trey pokes

Well-Known Member
Bias aside, that's a fault of the DP saga that Kalos rectified, cause if Greninja could knock the daylights out of a champion's ace when it was only one region trained with a super mode, I don't see why JN's Lucario couldn't do the same.

Let me ask this, what if Cynthia was in Geeta's place and lost, what would your rection be then?

Either way this fanning of the flames of war needs to stop.



poor kid don't need any more hatred than he already has.
Roy really don't deserve this treatment for real.
 

Queen Cynthia

Dignified Queen of Sinnoh
Let me ask this, what if Cynthia was in Geeta's place and lost, what would your rection be then?
First of all, let me make this clear. I'm not against Geeta. I'm even trying to defend her because she seems to be yet another champion who's being treated poorly and in a way she doesn't deserve.
What I'm criticising is the poor writing of the battle, the messed up power levels and the unrealistic result just because the trio had to win.

Bias aside, that's a fault of the DP saga that Kalos rectified, cause if Greninja could knock the daylights out of a champion's ace
First, it's not a fault by any means. Quite the opposite! It was one of the main reasons why DP has been the greatest adventure ever because it has an almost untouchable, impressive Champion who actually deserves that title more than the rest.
Second, Greninja did not knock the daylights out of Diantha's Gardevoir. The former put up a good fight but that was it. Diantha was never really threatened nor on the verge of defeat.

when it was only one region trained with a super mode, I don't see why JN's Lucario couldn't do the same.
You already gave the answer to it yourself. It's that ridiculous super mode you mentioned that makes Lucario "development" so cheap.
Greninja's bond phenomenon was carefully developed and not exploited beyond a reasonable level. Also, despite its "super mode" it still wasn't a superhuman beast but was defeated by Alain's Charizard. As opposed to Greninja however, Lucario's development from a freshly hatched Riolu to being able to defeat veteran Pokemon happened in a way that was just terribly cheap, dictated by the plot (and obviously lack of time) and beyond all logic. Remember when he almost magically and effortlessly turned from zero to hero and become unstoppable within one episode right after meeting Greninja? Rushed and cheap storytelling at its worst!
The fact alone that Ash's Pokemon need those "super modes" in the first place because the writers knew very well that he wouldn't stand a chance against the real champions just speaks for itself, doesn't it?
If your protagonist can't win fair and square you just give him super powers and that will do the trick, right?

but her portrayal in the battle left a lot to be desired. Her Pokémon should’ve been stronger and more durable, considering she’s the Top Champion, and yet she went down much too quickly. Despite the Elite Four praising her ferocity and the episode trying to build her up as a formidable opponent, it felt more like they were telling the audience how challenging the battle was rather than showing it.
You're right. That's also what I thought. It was as if the audience at the sideline had to make up for what the battle was lacking. I think it was quite contradictory that the Elite Four wanted us to believe something that the battle itself was not able to show us.
 
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Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Roy really don't deserve this treatment for real.

Agreed completely.

Second, Greninja did not knock the daylights out of Diantha's Gardevoir. The former put up a good fight but that was it. Diantha was never really threatened nor on the verge of defeat.

Yet she got condemned so hard by a lot of people that day because of that, clearly that moment left more of an impact than you might think.
The fact alone that Ash's Pokemon need those "super modes" in the first place because the writers knew very well that he wouldn't stand a chance against the real champions just speaks for itself, doesn't it?
If your protagonist can't win fair and square you just give him super powers and that will do the trick, right?

So did Cynthia need to use Mega Evolution against Iris? who was the only person in the masters 8 to not have a gimmick on her side? Cause that makes it seem like flexing to me that Cynthia went and used it when she didn't really need too.

When that battle was over Haxorus was covered in bruises but Garchomp didn't have any noticeable damage, so it made me wonder if she needed it to win that fight.

Dyna/Gigantamaxing is like a super mode as well, cynthia had dynamaxed her Togekiss with the intention of raising it's speed to try and make it hard for Lucario to hit it, but it backfired because she underestimated Lucario's power, which is something people can do, you underestimate something and it can cost you.

Ash wasn't the only person to use "superpowers" during the masters 8, your bias towards Cynthia is clearly making it where your posts are uncredible, because she used them as well, that doesn't give her any leeway.
 
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Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
Just asking out of curiosity: Which special preview do you mean? (I maybe missed it somehow)


These threads exist for a reason.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Y’know, I kinda appreciate how despite her personality, Liko isn’t afraid to be underhanded at times.

Despite her starter having yet to become one, Liko is somehow more adept at using the Dark-type fighting style than Ash, who had a total of four.

she doesn't scream nanu to me but yeah i like that.
 

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
One thing I love about this battle is all the details and strategy. That's why it's even more satisfying how impressed Geeta was by the kids because of the teamwork and their working together. Like we had abilities, move side effects, call back to previous battles, and it also shows that Geeta was smart to tell Liko to challenge the league in the future because she recognized her talent and attention to detail.

Who knows what the future holds but I wish Liko would challenge the gyms and pokemon league someday, I think she can do great things with all the knowledge she's gained :).
 

Queen Cynthia

Dignified Queen of Sinnoh
Agreed completely.



Yet she got condemned so hard by a lot of people that day because of that, clearly that moment left more of an impact than you might think.


So did Cynthia need to use Mega Evolution against Iris? who was the only person in the masters 8 to not have a gimmick on her side? Cause that makes it seem like flexing to me that Cynthia went and used it when she didn't really need too.

When that battle was over Haxorus was covered in bruises but Garchomp didn't have any noticeable damage, so it made me wonder if she needed it to win that fight.

Dyna/Gigantamaxing is like a super mode as well, cynthia had dynamaxed her Togekiss with the intention of raising it's speed to try and make it hard for Lucario to hit it, but it backfired because she underestimated Lucario's power, which is something people can do, you underestimate something and it can cost you.

Ash wasn't the only person to use "superpowers" during the masters 8, your bias towards Cynthia is clearly making it where your posts are uncredible, because she used them as well, that doesn't give her any leeway.
It seems to me you're clearly confusing "super powers" (a term that you introduced yourself) with legitimate gimmicks like Mega Evolution, Z-moves or Dynamax.
You see, there's a huge difference between champions like Cynthia properly training her Pokemon for all her life and using a legitimate gimmick and Ash's Lucario who had just hetched from an egg and barely been trained all of a sudden becoming giga powerful, almost god-like by being given some magical, obscure superpower. It was just the cheapest plot device that you can possibly think of, because they quickly needed to lift Ash and his fresh team on a level where he can compete against veteran champions.... Ash's and his Pokemon's development in the PWC and the treatment of the other champions was the biggest insult that you can think of if you ask me.

You're right that Iris didn't have a gimmick but that is her own "fault" because they're generally accessible to anybody and you can actually earn them by hard work. As opposed to that, DEM Lucario just so got his exaggerated super powers without earing them and almost as if by magic. Such a cheap trick / plot device in order to somehow justify why Ash can suddenly defeat all the most powerful champions out there requires suspension of disbelief and that's why I consider it not only cheap but also insulting to us fans.

As for Togekiss: What's the use of having Cynthia use a brilliant tactic and then let it go to waste by having Togekiss just attack head-on while in fact it could have dodged each of Lucario's attacks with its massive speed boost and wear it down with relentless quick attacks (from the distance)? The battle could have ended in a different way that would have been much much more realistic. But no, that wasn't their intention. Of course, Ash had to win and so, it was clearly written in Ash's favor because they needed a way to get rid of Togekiss somehow.
 
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As for Togekiss: What's the use of having Cynthia use a brilliant tactic and then let it go to waste by having Togekiss just attack head-on while in fact it could have dodged each of Lucario's attacks with its massive speed boost and wear it down with relentless quick attacks (from the distance)?
Because the writers needed Ash to win the battle so they had to lower Cynthia's battle IQ when it was convenient. Prime example of JN just making things happen because the plot demands it without following any logic or reasoning. Lucario is so powerful because the plot commands it to be, no matter how hilariously unrealistic it is that a freshly hatched Lucario can stand against veteran Garchomp. In a logical setting, Cynthia would have taken advantage of speed boost and Air Slash to guarantee victory. There was no reason not to keep using Air Slash, it was working well enough. In a logical setting, Cynthia's Garchomp would have been equipped with an actual ground type move instead of multiple Dragon type moves.

Ultimately, JN dismissed all logic and reasoning in favor of spectacle and fanservice.

Ash won because he was about to be written out of the show, it basically boils down to that. And the way they wrote his victory is one of the laziest, dumbest and the most contrived ways they could have thought of, leveling up a random team he gathered to Champion level and basically asking the audience to just suspend their disbelief and enjoy. No surprise that most people just accepted it without a question.
 

FinnishPokéFan92

A huggable electric rodent!
As for Togekiss: What's the use of having Cynthia use a brilliant tactic and then let it go to waste by having Togekiss just attack head-on while in fact it could have dodged each of Lucario's attacks with its massive speed boost and wear it down with relentless quick attacks (from the distance)? The battle could have ended in a different way that would have been much much more realistic. But no, that wasn't their intention. Of course, Ash had to win and so, it was clearly written in Ash's favor because they needed a way to get rid of Togekiss somehow.
Because the writers needed Ash to win the battle so they had to lower Cynthia's battle IQ when it was convenient. Prime example of JN just making things happen because the plot demands it without following any logic or reasoning. Lucario is so powerful because the plot commands it to be, no matter how hilariously unrealistic it is that a freshly hatched Lucario can stand against veteran Garchomp. In a logical setting, Cynthia would have taken advantage of speed boost and Air Slash to guarantee victory. There was no reason not to keep using Air Slash, it was working well enough. In a logical setting, Cynthia's Garchomp would have been equipped with an actual ground type move instead of multiple Dragon type moves.
Cynthia knew that Garchomp was weakened, so she chose to use her battle gimmick on Togekiss so that she could weaken Lucario for Garchomp, rather than risking potentially wasting her one gimmick on the heavily damaged Pokémon. Plus she also wanted to throw Ash off, since he was expecting Mega Evolution.
 

AuraChannelerChris

"What the hell...?"
In a series where it doesn't matter if you want to throw off your foe, it's ultimately the pen that does the magic.

...

In other words, logic was pretty off anyway. Either way, it was destined to be off in the previous series no matter the most "logical" angle to take in the final battles. Cynthia could have just pulled an Ash by choosing Mega Evolution, but the writing powers that be could've just given Ash the win without much difference (or that decision could've ended him like it should have).

(but thinking logically why would anyone look like they're so prepared to face off the one pokemon that seems more of a threat (actually even the main ace is weak against that type) and yet somehow forget about to bring a single damn ground type move into the game like how on earth one of the brightest trainers in the world could slip like that like holy **** she got DUMB near the end)

...You know what, I embrace the fact we don't have much of a previous history with Liko's group than just Ash to judge them for any idiotic results and choices. I do recommend we all just move on from those dark times.
 
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Queen Cynthia

Dignified Queen of Sinnoh
Cynthia knew that Garchomp was weakened, so she chose to use her battle gimmick on Togekiss so that she could weaken Lucario for Garchomp, rather than risking potentially wasting her one gimmick on the heavily damaged Pokémon. Plus she also wanted to throw Ash off, since he was expecting Mega Evolution.
I wonder if some fans and the writers alike are deliberately trying to dumb down Cynthia and Garchomp and give her the same treatment as Alder (and Geeta to some extent) got.
Hell, we're talking about freaking Cynthia's Garchomp which isn't invincible but definitely one of the most powerful and terrifying beasts out there!The one that is supposed to be more powerful and experienced than all of Ash's randomly and newly caught Journeys Pokemon together.
Also, people seem to exaggerate the influence of Ash's little Sirfetchd landing one hit on a Pokemon whose power level must be a hundred times higher than its own. So, yes Garchomp got hit (just because the plot dumbed it down once more and had it just stand there and watch and take the hit instead of simply dodging). So what? If Ash's DEM Lucario is apparently capable of "taking out" two of Cynthia's Pokemon (at least that's what the plot wants us to believe), then isn't it much more realistic if Garchomp can do the very same and take out Lucario despite that one hit?

Because the writers needed Ash to win the battle so they had to lower Cynthia's battle IQ when it was convenient. Prime example of JN just making things happen because the plot demands it without following any logic or reasoning. Lucario is so powerful because the plot commands it to be, no matter how hilariously unrealistic it is that a freshly hatched Lucario can stand against veteran Garchomp. In a logical setting, Cynthia would have taken advantage of speed boost and Air Slash to guarantee victory. There was no reason not to keep using Air Slash, it was working well enough. In a logical setting, Cynthia's Garchomp would have been equipped with an actual ground type move instead of multiple Dragon type moves.

Ultimately, JN dismissed all logic and reasoning in favor of spectacle and fanservice.

Ash won because he was about to be written out of the show, it basically boils down to that. And the way they wrote his victory is one of the laziest, dumbest and the most contrived ways they could have thought of, leveling up a random team he gathered to Champion level and basically asking the audience to just suspend their disbelief and enjoy. No surprise that most people just accepted it without a question.
Don't get me wrong but I love (in a symbolic sense) you for those lines! Couldn't have said it better myself.
Ever since Cynthia vs Ash aired I've been criticising it, pointing out how flawed it was, how much it lacked logic and how terribly it was written in Ash's favor.
To be honest, I hardly met anybody who shared my exact same thoughts with the same clarity and directness. That's great. Thank you!
 
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