Overcentralising the Metagame...?

[Sabonea_Masukippa]

I am not a big competitive battler, however, I've done it enough to notice what I consider a slight contradicition in competitive battling in relation to banning moves.

Firstly, there was a thread a while ago talking about banning of 1HKO and evasion raising moves, why they were banned and whether this was right. I want to focus on the reasons for banning the evasion raising moves that seemed to be primary, before moving onto my actual discussion point. It seemed most people felt that raising evasion was cheap, hax and required lower powered moves (like Swift or Magical Leaf) in order to counter, meaning that each team would need a user of one or more of these moves. Thus, they claimed, the metagame would become over-centralised as people would be using pokemon specifically to counter these moves, and everyone would probably start having at least one Double Team user on their team.

Now, what I actually want to discuss is Stealth Rock. I believe that this attack is threatening to over-centralise the metagame in the same way as Double Team would.

First: The ONLY counter for Stealth Rock (unless I am sorely mistaken) is Rapid Spin, which is a relatively weak attack (base 20 power) - certainly weaker than all of the Double Team counters, and it is found on much fewer pokemon than the never-miss attacks.
Second: This move single-handedly bumps a whole lot of powerful pokemon off a lot of teams. Receiving a 25%-50% HP loss upon switiching in is a detriment to the use of ALL fire types, bug/flying types, ice types and so on. This limits the pokemon who can be used in the upper tiers where Stealth Rock is most frequently used. It also increases the freuqency of rock, ground and steel types beyond ever before, because of their immunites.
(Tyranitar's ability doesn't help much either...but that's another discussion.)
Third: Not only does it limit the pokemon you can use in this way - but it means that most teams will need a Rapid Spinner, unless they want to receive large amounts of residual damage.
Fourth: Before you counter with "But everyone can use it! It's part of a stratergy." Everyone could use double team too, if they wanted to. But it's been banned.

So, I'm not looking to ban Stealth Rock. Hardly. What I want to discuss is how its use is different to that of Double Team. Is it the luck factor that Double Team has? Is it the percieved cheapness of the move? Is it fair that some pokemon get dumped because so many pokemon can use stealth rock that they can't risk being switched in? How is one's average powered counter perceived as worthless, while the other's much weaker counter is fine?

Your thoughts?

 

[neo_senku]

ya know thats a pretty good question and point

 

[Ophie]

The reason why Double Team is banned and Stealth Rock is not is because whereas you can develop alternate strategies for dealing with Stealth Rock, you cannot with Double Team. The metagame, as well as all other highly competitive circles of gaming, make up players who compete in an environment they want to keep as controlled as possible. This is why, for instance, items are banned in all tournaments for Super Smash Bros. Melee and are thoroughly despised by nearly all masters. The Double Team attack and OHKO moves, just like items in Smash Bros. or Mario Kart, causes the environment to not be as controlled as it once was. It prevents the ultracompetitive players from planning several steps ahead, a thoroughly uncomfortable feeling for them. It should be clear that this is the reason why they're banned when you consider that the question is not if they give an unfair advantage (as, for the most part, they aren't) but if they cause the ultracompetitive players to lose control of the match and with it the ability to calculate in advance.

In the case of Double Team, evasion gain means damage to the Pokémon that uses it will come down to chance, which the other player has very little control over. Forget the fact that it takes up a moveslot that can be filled up by something better or that it requires several very valuable turns to set up, the source fo the Double Team controversy; since it can no longer be calculated at how many turns it takes for the Double Teamer to go down (meaning one can't figure out how to conserve PP, how many hits to withstand, and whether the Double Teamer gets to heal damage), it's banned. Stealth Rock is much easier to control. Damage can be prevented by not switching or by switching into certain Pokémon. In addition, usage of Stealth Rock too late into a match will have minimal impact, when switching happens a lot less often.

I will now predict ahead, that someone is going to attack me with a worst-case scenario: That Double Team will cause me to miss all of my attacks and make me helpless or that Sheer Cold hits three/six times in a row against me. That is simply a defense to give when one loses control. While it's possible that these can happen, they won't necessarily happen (and the odds are actually pretty rare). This is, in essence, a straw man argument. In order to properly assess if they're unfair or not, we have to know the precise odds...but unfairness is not as important as losing control over the battling environment.

You can probably figure form my use of pronouns that I am not a competitive player for any game. I observe from afar instead.

 

[Praetor]

i find items in super smash bros. and mario kart delightfully fun, plus in mario kart they're designed to balance the game, with only the suckiest players getting the best items and the pest getting nonsense like banana peel, as for super smash brothers aswell as pokemon (I am a master at both, coming in the top 10 in regional competitions)

chaos is a strategy, a dangerous one, but one nonetheless

 

[SilverDragon7683]

Alright, Now I'm not a good competative battler. Odds are I suck since I always lose online(though I don't play that often). But all I have to say is that I dunno, people being afraid of luck. It's insane. I could go back to an argument I heard where someone mentioned something about peoples' fear of luck in battles is getting to the point where you could hold the argument that, "oh, your pokemon criticaled, if It didn't I would have won so this match doesn't count". I'm not saying that's how people are, but bannning luck moves is the same idea. People for some reason don't want to say, man, that was lucky/unlucky or better luck next time, seeing as how there is no luck anymore.

I was in a battle, my Aggron froze when switching into an ice fang. I could have defeated the opposing Sharpedo since it's next attack, earthquake, did not faint him, but I was unluckily frozen. When Aggron fainted, the rest of my team was able to pick up after him. Your team should work together as one full functional entity. I took out a Kyogre with a Flygon and Starmie alternating between kyogre's Ice Beam and Thunder. Neither one of mine fainted as a result.

People complain that certain moves are cheap, but then there is the saying, if you really are as good as you say, then you can hold yours in any situation. Then they complain that there are better moves than Aerial Ace and Haze, but you can have 6 pokemon on a team to work together. So giving a Crobat Haze instead of whatever other move(I've yet to use one yet). I mean that's what the rest of your team is for, to pick up on your weaknesses/holes.

Even the Predicting aspect is luck. For example, Flygon Vs. Electivire, Flygon switches out for fear of ice punch. Not knowing if the Electivire in question even has it(yes, odds are it does) So team Flygon figures that Electivire will use ice punch so they switch to say....Abomasnow to be resistant to ice and electirc. However, instad of doing Icepunch at all, it used Brick break. That was lucky that they were able to predict. If Flygon had decided not to switch at all, Electivire would be dead.

I know I don't battle all that much, so what do I know. But All I figure is that if something is legally obtainable in the game there should be no problem in using it. If you complain about a DTing Snorlax, then bring an aura sphere, Haze or a double team of your own. A cursing Spiritomb or nightmare Gengar can cause some switching.

 

[darkpkmn fan1]

Ya, i agree. Banning some oves and not others sucks. It wouldnt be in the game if it wasnt for use. You should all just follow the official rules which allows double team. Its just cos you cant be bothered to counter it. Stealth Rock Sucks.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Ya, i agree. Banning some oves and not others sucks. It wouldnt be in the game if it wasnt for use. You should all just follow the official rules which allows double team. Its just cos you cant be bothered to counter it. Stealth Rock Sucks.

You clearly are not a competitive battler...

Stealth Rock isn't banned, despite being on of the most commonly used moves in DP battling, because it doesn't take luck to use. It requires strategy. Double Team requires a huge amount of luck.

 

[Jesus Radunzel]

Well its always happens with a game... people dont like things which equalise it..

 

[darkpkmn fan1]

Yeah, SHUCKLE MAN , how do you know what i am and im not. If you where a good competitive battler , you would not be worried about Double Team. Its not like i use it or anything but....... its my opinion that stealth rock sucks.

 

[Crypt Lord]

Guess what I have to say:

Live with it.

Banning moves is basically Limiting others ideas. If they want to use something it's fine. As long as it doesn't Actually defy the rules of the game It's fine.

Someone using Double team? Let them.

Someone using something else that's cheap Let them.

Someone wanting to ban all things luck related? CheesePoodleSauce Them, Don't play with someone you don't like because they have this thing called "Rules" that make everything so boring.

No luck= One sided and boring. There. End of story.

Any examples? I can't find one D:

 

[ellie]

Guess what I have to say:

Live with it.

Banning moves is basically Limiting others ideas. If they want to use something it's fine. As long as it doesn't Actually defy the rules of the game It's fine.

Someone using Double team? Let them.

Someone using something else that's cheap Let them.

Someone wanting to ban all things luck related? CheesePoodleSauce Them, Don't play with someone you don't like because they have this thing called "Rules" that make everything so boring.

No luck= One sided and boring. There. End of story.

Any examples? I can't find one D:

Banning things doesn't limit others' ideas. It actually allows a lot more things to be used. Think about it. If there was no such thing as Species Clause and Ubers was the main metagame, wouldn't everyone use 6 Arceus as their whole team? I'd say that's far more boring than playing in OU with a team of 6 different Pokemon.

And luck makes things way more unfair. How would you feel if you were constantly facing people worse at battling than you, but they used Double Team and/or other pure luck moves, and you used the same moves as well, but they got luckier, wouldn't you feel cheated out of a win? That's why pure luck is unfair. It has no basis in skill, it only depends on what the RNG says. :/

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yeah, SHUCKLE MAN , how do you know what i am and im not. If you where a good competitive battler , you would not be worried about Double Team. Its not like i use it or anything but....... its my opinion that stealth rock sucks.

Two things you said strongly suggested that you aren't a competitive battle.

Firstly, you said Double Team should be allowed. I get what you are saying, but a competitive battler would be against Double Team. Double Team spoils the fun, and that's what we are all here for ultimately.

Secondly, you said that Stealth Rock sucks. Nearly every competitive battler has Stealth Rock and/or Rapid Spin somewhere on their teams. It by no means sucks (although it makes Charizard suck ). You may say it's your opinion that Stealth Rock sucks, but there are some opinions that you cannot justify (like saying Magikarp is better than Gyarados overall).

Pokemon, without Double Team has a good enough amount of luck. Critical Hits are enough luck for the game. We also have things like the random variable in the damage calculation, paralysis, what Pokemon and movesets the opponent has, lower accuracy moves, Quick Claw, etc. for luck. These are all luck-based, but not so much that it makes the battle boring. Imagine we all had to start using Swift, Aerial Ace, Faint Attack, etc. again. That wouldn't be fun (although it would make DP a lot more defensive I guess).

People make their own rules to make the battle fun. It's more fun if it's restricted. How many people enjoy playing 'Anything Goes!'? Now compare that to how many play Standard/OU, UU, NU, Level Balance, Mono-type, etc. Restrictions makes Pokemon more fun if anything.

 

[Aviano]

This topic fails because to many ignorant people always fail to listen to the reasonable arguments of the Competitive battlers who want it banned.

See, Luck is a strategy, it's just that, even if you win, you didn't win because of your skill, it's because you got lucky.


Also, the whole "everybody can use it, so it's okay"-argument doesn't work. Everybody can steal. Does that make stealing okay?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

People have tried using Double Team before (I entered a tournament with in in Advance). Aerial Ace must've been the most used attack ever in that tournament. And there were all those Dusclops, Zapdos and Suicune abusing Pressure and Toxic. There were loads of hazers too. It was very long-winded, tedious and repetitive. Not neccessarily boring, as it was still fun, but not as fun as 'classic' Advance.

 

[Sabonea_Masukippa]

See, this is interesting.

They ARE two very different moves, but I did try to paint them to be quite similar.

I wasn't trying to suggest that Double Team should be allowed, or that Stealth Rock should be banned. I kinda felt like a good debate, and this was something that intrigued me.

I mean stealth rock does limit what pokemon you can use in the upper tiers of competitive battling, but then, if that really bothered you, you could make sure you battled someone who didn't use it or battle in the lower tiers. But, fact is, Stealth Rock is a really really good move and a lot of good pokemon can learn it, which makes me think that it is a little overpowered, so perhaps gamefreak will weaken it/make it less appealing a little next gen, like they did with some moves this generation (like surf in double battles).

 

[ellie]

I mean stealth rock does limit what pokemon you can use in the upper tiers of competitive battling, but then, if that really bothered you, you could make sure you battled someone who didn't use it or battle in the lower tiers. But, fact is, Stealth Rock is a really really good move and a lot of good pokemon can learn it, which makes me think that it is a little overpowered, so perhaps gamefreak will weaken it/make it less appealing a little next gen, like they did with some moves this generation (like surf in double battles).

I agree, it is somewhat overpowered, and I don't think more Spikes-type moves needed to be added. However, it's not nearly as centralizing as Double Team. A non-Rapid Spin team isn't completely destroyed by a Stealth Rock-ing team (unless it has like Articuno, Charizard, Butterfree, Masquerain, Delibird, and Moltres, or something ridiculous like that, but a team like that would die easily anyway), since each team should have a defensive Pokemon that hopefully resists Rock anyway. However, any team without a move like Aura Sphere, Magical Lead, or Swift is completely destroyed by a little bit of bad luck against a DT team. :S

 

["L"]

Stealth rock works to weakend other Pokemon like Salamence who in most cases can rip teams to shreds after your Dragon resist is gone, or when your special wall is gone. SR keeps it from coming ina nd out too often.

Rapid spin was always a common move to begin with because of Spikes.

And really, Salamence and Dragonite are still the overused of the overused Pokemon. Stealth rock barely made a dent on their usage. Charizard was never that OU to begin with.

 

[DemonOfWrath]

Stealth Rock isn't as bad as evasion moves. For evasion moves you'd have to carry a roarer/hazer and keep that alive or carry a heap of no-miss attacks otherwise a bit of luck letting a pokemon DT up means you're dead. For SR it's only a worry if you have rock weaks on your team otherwise it's annoying but bearable. Also, it's not based on pure luck, if SR are on the field you can take them into account when making your next move, if DT is being used you have no idea what will happen.

 

[Sabonea_Masukippa]

Stealth Rock isn't as bad as evasion moves. For evasion moves you'd have to carry a roarer/hazer and keep that alive or carry a heap of no-miss attacks otherwise a bit of luck letting a pokemon DT up means you're dead. For SR it's only a worry if you have rock weaks on your team otherwise it's annoying but bearable. Also, it's not based on pure luck, if SR are on the field you can take them into account when making your next move, if DT is being used you have no idea what will happen.

That is very true.

So, yeah, as Ophie said, I was building a straw man with this argument. I just wanted to see what reaction it would get, and also read some good debate on why particular moves are tolerated and others are banned. I think this is what has happened.

Oh, and I liked the point Kairyu_trainer made about it being a Salamence counter - I had never considered that before (mainly because I ignore Salamence as much as possible, lol). That is actually a really plausible explanation. It's just a shame that it lowers other poke's potential, imo.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yeah, Charizard was only ever OU during GSC to be honest, he has been UU everywhere else.

I personally think Stealth Rock was added as an attempt to make DP more defensively orientated, because I'm dure they must've realized how offensive DP was.

And, I thought I should mention that Surf got better in Double Battles this gen.