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Overpopulation as Myth (READ FIRST POST)

In order to know that the whole earth is overpopulated, there must be in existence how many people--precisely?

Though an answer to the above question is necessary for any positive declaration that the world is overpopulated, I have never heard such an answer. Instead, I've seen numerous instances on the Debate Forum of people either assuming that our world is overpopulated (usually as support for some population-reducing policy or law!), or pointing to the approximately (if I have my statistics correct) eight billion people on the globe as proof that human population is too high. But both of these approaches sorely lack logical rigor. How many humans is too many?

Now, I am not at all convinced that the earth is overpopulated. Here are several definitions of "overpopulation":
the population of an area in too large numbers
(World English Dictionary, Dictionary.com; note that the definition of "overpopulate" given on that webpage is decidedly more precise than the above.)
1. A situation which occurs when the number of occupants of an area exceeds the ability of that area to provide for those occupants.
(Wiktionary)
the condition of having a population so dense as to cause environmental deterioration, an impaired quality of life, or a population crash
(Merriam Webster)

The first definition above obviously suffers from the flaw I mentioned--what number is too large? While the other definitions provide factors that could be useful for determining whether an area us overpopulated, they still have difficulties. Is an area overpopulated when a few of the citizens have an impaired quality of life? Scarcity of resources might sound like a fully objective criterion, but basic economics teach that scarcity of goods is to be expected to some extent as a fact of life. And to apply these to the world as one area, there have virtually always been people who had an impaired quality of life somewhere. And the ability of the earth to provide for all its inhabitants is something hard to determine, something that constantly increases as technology advances and new agrcultural techniques are invented. I propose that these definitions still do not show that the earth is overpopulated, and I further offer several observations against the idea of the world being overpopulated:

(1) It has been stated as a piece of trivia that the city of Jacksonville, Florida covers enough land that, hypothetically, if everyone in the world were given one square foot of land, there would be room for everyone to stand. Keep in mind that this scenario ignores buildings and such, so it wouldn't work in the city as it actually stands. However, the figure of one square foot per person is actually a tad low; everyone could be given slightly more than 1.5 square feet. This is still a tad crowded, but that's just one city. Consider how much more space is in a large state or province. Now consider the area of a large country. There's a lot of space in the world.

(2) There are a lot of populous cities that many would call "crowded" or "overpopulated," yet apparently many people still desire to go there. Many people transfer for business purposes to Chicago or L.A., and people still spend vacation time in densely populated areas like New York City. Simply put, to say that even these heavily populated places are "clearly beyond their capacity" is an overstatement. And regarding one of the definitions above, it should be noted that only a part of New York's population has an impaired quality of life.

(3) People don't live in two dimensions: they live in three. Since I mentioned it in the previous point, think of New York City. One major reason its population is so high is that many of its citizens live in tall apartment buildings. There's a lot of room to build up living space, especially because some cities have very few tall buildings. For another bit of interesting trivia, I think a line in a song from the musical Oklahoma! expresses the opinion that seven stories is "about as high as a building ought to go." (My own city seems to have been listening to this viewpoint.) Additionally, we can increase living space downward as well. It is certainly possible to conceive of some way to build homes underground. In any case, three dimensions means a lot of space.

Considering the above facts, I believe that global overpopulation may be a myth. I am not positively stating that I know it's myth; but since it appears to lack proper logical rigor, I'd like to see how far I can go toward showing that it is myth. If anyone has any evidence to answer my initial question, that would go a long way toward toppling my argument. But without this, overpopulation is not something that logically commands the widespread acceptance it has gained. This raises grave governmental and moral implications: If there is no logical foundation for concluding that the world is overpopulated, then how is it right for any governing body or politician to make laws assuming worldwide overpopulation is true?

Therefore, this debate is for everyone since everyone is part of earth's population. Any policy regarding overpopulation could involve...you. This is a serious issue and I hope you will give it your careful consideration as we debate.
 
I can agree that some parts of the world aren't overpopulated right now at this very moment. I think it's reasonable though to admit that, because the earth has a finite area that we can exist comfortably in, if we continue to grow at the rate we're growing, some time in the future (near or far) we will reach a point of global overpopulation. You can only build buildings so high, and eventually the areas that are less populated now should fill up.
 

metagrody6

COMO UN JEFE
The number of humans on earth will go down when either of these two things happen:
1. Food and water start to become so scarce that the number of people dying from thirst and starvation outweigh the number of people born, or
2. Women stop finding us attractive.
 
I can agree that some parts of the world aren't overpopulated right now at this very moment. I think it's reasonable though to admit that, because the earth has a finite area that we can exist comfortably in, if we continue to grow at the rate we're growing, some time in the future (near or far) we will reach a point of global overpopulation. You can only build buildings so high, and eventually the areas that are less populated now should fill up.

The finite area of the earth is something that does make overpopulation possible. There's no doubt about that...unless we start to majorly shrink as a species. I'm mostly kidding, but still, it appears that the bit of trivia about Jacksonville would indicate that there could be many more people without using up the available space. Of course, maybe we could start living in trees or something. I, for one, would enjoy finding a way to build a great livable treehouse.

The number of humans on earth will go down when either of these two things happen:
1. Food and water start to become so scarce that the number of people dying from thirst and starvation outweigh the number of people born, or
2. Women stop finding us attractive.

People could just stop wanting to have as many kids. I've heard some reports that many western nations are in decline, just due to not having so many kids.
 

Aquanova

Well-Known Member
Many people think Overpopulations of humans is a myth, but Earth is a planet with limited landspace and habitable areas. This is what people fail to realize. There is limited space and limited resources to support infinite numbers of humans, especially given the amount we consume and waste. It dosent matter how many there are now, eventually there will be too many for the Earth to support. Then what will we do? What is the answer to that?
 
[img139]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTE_FXdg-kRX0p2EAuozoATCCeufOe1GjoZ63I4EBNRQOFKXQ8LwQ[/img139]
 
^^Epic, mattj!

Many people think Overpopulations of humans is a myth, but Earth is a planet with limited landspace and habitable areas. This is what people fail to realize. There is limited space and limited resources to support infinite numbers of humans, especially given the amount we consume and waste. It dosent matter how many there are now, eventually there will be too many for the Earth to support. Then what will we do? What is the answer to that?

I referred to overpopulation as a present condition. I am not saying I know the earth can never become overpopulated, and I expressly acknowledged that with my previous reply. However, I am saying that the idea of global overpopulation lacks proper logical foundation. I don't think you read my examples.
 

MugoUrth

Bibarel's adorable.
People will think of any excuse to kill animals. Overpopulation is one of them. Humans throw out the "Deer are overpopulated" rule as an excuse to kill deer, and yet it's THIS excuse that is causing the deer to become a threatened species. They will also think of any way to override the "Overpopulation" rule they themselves break. I believe the only way to combat OUR overpopulation (Without killing anyone, of coarse) is to cut down on breeding and limit ourselves to one child per family. (I don't personally think death or genocide is the right answer.)
 
Rule or Opinion?

People will think of any excuse to kill animals. Overpopulation is one of them. Humans throw out the "Deer are overpopulated" rule as an excuse to kill deer, and yet it's THIS excuse that is causing the deer to become a threatened species. They will also think of any way to override the "Overpopulation" rule they themselves break. I believe the only way to combat OUR overpopulation (Without killing anyone, of coarse) is to cut down on breeding and limit ourselves to one child per family. (I don't personally think death or genocide is the right answer.)
You appear not to have read my first post. What makes you think we are overpopulated? How many people is too many? Second, if a couple only has one child, the population will repeatedly be cut in half each generation (and then wars and other things reduce the population further). No, a one-child policy isn't any kind of logical answer. Finally, you've brought up "the overpopulation rule" before, and been countered, haven't you?

I never said humans were the only animals that are allowed to live and since when is there an "overpopulation rule?"
Pesky Persian did an excellent job cutting to the heart of the issue. Tell me about this rule, MugoUrth, because it sounds an awful lot like your opinion.
 

MugoUrth

Bibarel's adorable.
I'm just saying that ignoring the problem and pretending like it doesn't exist is not the right answer. And what I mean by the overpopulation rule? How is this for a description of the rule: "When a species becomes so populated it has to invade other species habitats in order to survive?" And that's pretty much what I'm saying. This is what the world is coming to, when we populate so much we have to destroy other habitats in order to make room for ourselves. And of coarse with the "One child per person" rule, you know, you could always put the rule on hold once human population gets too low.

And it's not an opinion and it's not a myth, it's a FACT.
 
I'm just saying that ignoring the problem and pretending like it doesn't exist is not the right answer. And what I mean by the overpopulation rule? How is this for a description of the rule: "When a species becomes so populated it has to invade other species habitats in order to survive?" And that's pretty much what I'm saying. This is what the world is coming to, when we populate so much we have to destroy other habitats in order to make room for ourselves. And of coarse with the "One child per person" rule, you know, you could always put the rule on hold once human population gets too low.

And it's not an opinion and it's not a myth, it's a FACT.

Your definition of overpopulation sounds suspiciously like a definition of competition between species. Therefore, you have provided nothing that shows overpopulation is a fact.
 

MugoUrth

Bibarel's adorable.
No, you are just ignoring that it's a fact. Again, you're the kind of person who will kill an animal because they are "overpopulating", but refuse to believe your own species is overpopulating.

And just for the record: I am in no way saying humans are evil. I am saying SOME humans just refuse to believe it exists.
 
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No, you are just ignoring that it's a fact. Again, you're the kind of person who will kill an animal because they are "overpopulating", but refuse to believe your own species is overpopulating.

And just for the record: I am in no way saying humans are evil. I am saying SOME humans just refuse to believe it exists.

I'm ignoring that it's a fact? You failed to provide any information that shows it's a fact. Instead, you substituted your own definition of overpopulation that ignores the fact of life that species compete with one another. It happens all over the world, and has for the vast majority of history.

And your accusation has no basis in reality. I'm not the kind of person who has ever killed any animal other than insects (unless I'm forgetting). I kindly ask you to stop making accusations like that.
 

DucksGoMooful

Evergreen tail?
By my own definition of over-population, I say that over-population occurs when there are so many people that the Earth's natural resources cannot sustain them. I don't think that really applies to animals since they are a part of the natural resources, right? Based on the points you've presented TheFightingPikachu, I am actually convinced that you're right. Going into the Jacksonville Florida point, 1.5 square feet of land per person is extremely small (obviously), but since there's so much room in EVERY other place in the world, the amount of land can't possibly be the problem. I think it has to do with the amount of resources people in highly-developed coutries use. Over-using the resources can definitely lead to over-population because there will be less resources per person. Just think about how much fresh water there is left. Lack of resources is what I think will eventually kill off humans.
 

MugoUrth

Bibarel's adorable.
Do I really need proof? It's all around you. How many sites have you seen where people are cutting down trees? How many people do you know talk about "The good of the human race" and ignore the good of anything else? How many buildings or parking lots have you seen been built that seem completely unnecessary until you realize how far the population of a certain city has gone up since the last time you checked? Why do you need me to tell you it's happening? There are clues all around you, and there's more where that came from, too.

I don't think that really applies to animals since they are a part of the natural resources, right?

Again, someone who things "For the good of the human race and to hell with everything else."
 

UltimatePokemonExpert

Experienced Trainer
I have no idea. Hopefully Jesus comes back before that happens so we never have to deal with it at all.
 

DucksGoMooful

Evergreen tail?
Again, someone who things "For the good of the human race and to hell with everything else."
That's not what I'm saying at all. Look at something like ants. There's way more ants than humans, yet they're not over-populated. How many ants would you say it would take for them to be considered "over-populated"? A heck of a lot.
 

Pesky Persian

Caffeine Queen
I don't see the human population as overpopulated yet. It could certainly happen, but I don't think it's a major issue yet. I think the major issue right now is more about the misuse of resources. At this point in time, with all of the resources we've squandered, I don't think lowering the population would do much to change any of the current issues we face. Being less wasteful and finding cleaner, renewable energy sources could make a big difference, though.
 

DucksGoMooful

Evergreen tail?
There was this online test thing I had to do as part of Geography class about "how many earths would people need if everyone used the same energy I did per day". I got something like 3 Earths. So clearly, people in the developed countries are using WAY too much.
 

Grei

not the color
No, you are just ignoring that it's a fact. Again, you're the kind of person who will kill an animal because they are "overpopulating", but refuse to believe your own species is overpopulating.

No, he's debunking it. If he was ignoring "the fact," he wouldn't have made this topic because stating something as a myth includes taking the supposed fact and providing reasons to state it as a non-fact.

Disagreeing with you and the social norm and refusing to acknowledge the existence of a specific thing are very different.

Now, how about you debate the actual topic here (presumably against TFP) instead of randomly accusing him of being a bad person?
 
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