PokemonBattleFanatic-
Well-Known Member
No thanksYou can just re-watch the episode: An Explosive Operation and the entire Flare arc climax.
No thanksYou can just re-watch the episode: An Explosive Operation and the entire Flare arc climax.
Based on its performances in the League, easily able to wreck a solid Tier 2 level mon like Tierno's Blastoise without breaking a sweat, based on how easily it was able to finish off KL Pikachu who was battling at a pretty high level in that battle(presumably Tier 1). Yes, Pikachu was exhausted from previous battles, but if you look at how Sceptile no sold all of Pikachu's moves and easily finished it off, it's pretty much evident that Pikachu would've even lost pretty decisively even at full health. And in the battle against Alain, when Pikachu battled Charizard, it was visibly more injured compared to when it faced Sceptile, and still it made Charizard kneel. So Sceptile being able to finish Pikachu off that much easily is quite impressiveBased on what?
To do exactly what Sawyer's Sceptile(base form) and Ash's Sceptile has done on-screen.Lacks on screen facts to do what?
If experience is the only thing that mattered, Ash Bulbasaur/Squirtle would've been stronger that Ash's Sceptile/Greninja.Gee I had no idea Sawyer (Rookie trainer)was more capable of training a pokemon up to a high tier 1 level in just one region of experience compared to one with multiple regions of experience.........I guess Trip's Serperior is stronger as well right?So are you implying that Sawyer is better at making his pokemon stronger than Paul?
So does this mean you have Sawyer's Mega Sceptile over Ash's Charizard,Sceptile,and Infernape as well?
Even with taking into account the evolutionary buff Noivern got, Noivern still won't be close to an epic strong Pokemon. Legendary Birds like Zapdos are on that level where even Pokemon of Ash's Noivern level could deal some notable damage on them to cause pain.
Can you even imagine Ash's Noivern dealing a notable amount of painful damage on God/Deity level Legendary like Zygarde, which strength to demolish an entire city. At least I find it hard to imagine.
Um, above Paul's Torterra a bit, and more or less on equal footing with Ash's Sceptile. A bit below Paul's Electivire's level.
So yeah, judging from how strong Sawyer's Sceptile was portrayed in its base form in the League, I'd say it's stronger than Paul's Torterra
This is how me and 345a-g would rate these Pokémon:MS> Torterra> Ash's sceptile>Electivire>Sawyer's BS
No it isn't. Literally where it was stated that Torterra was Paul's strongest? Nowhere. It was only stated that it was his starter.Torterra is paul's strongest pokemn,
And why is that? Sawyer's Sceptile, even in its base form, was portrayed as an absolute beast even prior to the League, and even more so in the League.sawyer's base sceptile is no way near to ash's sceptile
What? Literally what has Paul's Torterra done to show that it's on even equal level with Ash's Sceptile, let alone being stronger than Ash's Sceptile? Ash's Sceptile solo'd of the strongest FB's in the Kanto Frontier Brains (possibly only second to Brandon), Spencer's Shiftry + Claydol, and later in the DP, did majority of the work in bringing down a League sweeping Legendary Darkrai.forget about torterra who is only paul's pokemn which is stronger than ash's sceptile
Paul's Electivire is the Pokemon which deserves the claim of being Paul's strongest based on on-screen feats and depiction. It was portrayed as Paul's ace throughout the League and was Paul's ace and his last Pokemon in the rivalry climax high stakes battle between Ash and Paul in the Sinnoh League (and due to that it automatically makes a lot of narrative sense for Electivire to be Paul's strongest Pokemon).His electivire is weaker than ash's sceptile.
I disagree, Sawyer's Sceptile even in base form was portrayed as a beast and exhibited astounding feats before and during the League. You might find Sawyer's rapid plot powered progression a bit unbelievable but that's actually the case, also Sawyer was even prior to the League, mentored by Hoenn Champion Steven Stone.Though sawyer's MS will beat them all but in base form it will lose to all 3 of them.
More presicely,MS> Torterra> Ash's sceptile>Electivire>Sawyer's BS
First things first, no one is underrating Ash's Sceptile. I already mentioned all of Ash's Sceptile's feats in my previous post, its feats in BF and DP, solo'ing Spencer and doing majority of the work it bringing down Tobias's League sweeping Legendary Darkrai. You literally stated earlier that Paul's Torterra is better than Ash's Sceptile, despite the fact that Paul's Torterra lacks that much on-screen feats to be above Sceptile, and that's actually underrating.Ash's sceptile is getting underrated, it defeated an unbeatable darkrai who at this point was undefeated and was only one to beat it albeit little help from heracross and probably gible, not to mention his sceptile has an experience in league and BF and had battled multiple legendaries before SL.
This notion that newly evolved Pokemon can't be strong is quite wrong considering Ash's Sceptile, just a few days after evolving, managed to solo the extremely powerful Frontier Brain like Spencer. And if experience is the only thing that mattered then Ash's Bulbasaur/Squirtle would be stronger than Ash's Sceptile/Greninja.No way is base sceptile or newly evolved electivire close to it.
We all know that it was his starter, and has 4 regions of battle experience , and very likely Paul's strongest Pokemon at the start of DP. But that doesn't anyhow mean that it remained Paul's strongest Pokemon at the end of DP, considering Paul got a major power boost after coming to Sinnoh, and caught majority of his powerhouses in Sinnoh too. Furthermore Paul clearly relied more on those powerhouses he caught/aquired in Sinnoh at the end of DP, like Electivire and Drapion. Torterra barely even appeared in the end of DP while Paul was using those powerhouses at the end of DP/Sinnoh League, and that says something. Throughout the Sinnoh League, Electivire is clearly the one who was portrayed as Paul's ace.Same with trterra it was already an well battled machine before DP started.
Like I said before, Sawyer made a very rapid plot-powered progression which might seem unbelievable but that's actually the case(also he was mentored by Hoenn Champion Steven Stone prior to the League). His Sceptile, even in base form, was portrayed actually as that powerful in the League.I could agree with MS beating them since mega form give them 3-4 times powerboost but in base form sawyer's sceptile is no way near to ash's sceptile.
Infernape was poisoned, yep, which was an issue, but no way it was way more injured than Electivire either(considering Elective also took a bit of damage from Pikachu). Infernape took some damage from Ninjask's ineffective Giga Drain, wow, that is supposed to be so much damaging?Same with eletivire he could not finish an already injured infernape which is inferior to sceptile how could he even faced sceptile.
True, but even without Motordrive is quite strong already(demolished a High Tier 2 mon like Barry's Empoleon effortlessly). Against Pokemon who knows Electric moves, it gets the Motordrive speed boost.And what is this motordrive electivire, neither of three knows any electric type moves so his motordrive boost is of no use.
First things first, no one is underrating Ash's Sceptile. I already mentioned all of Ash's Sceptile's feats in my previous post, its feats in BF and DP, solo'ing Spencer and doing majority of the work it bringing down Tobias's League sweeping Legendary Darkrai. You literally stated earlier that Paul's Torterra is better than Ash's Sceptile, despite the fact that Paul's Torterra lacks that much on-screen feats to be above Sceptile, and that's actually underrating.
I personally put Ash's Sceptile and Sawyer's Sceptile both a bit above Paul's Torterra.
This notion that newly evolved Pokemon can't be strong is quite wrong considering Ash's Sceptile, just a few days after evolving, managed to solo the extremely powerful Frontier Brain like Spencer. And if experience is the only thing that mattered then Ash's Bulbasaur/Squirtle would be stronger than Ash's Sceptile/Greninja.
I already mentioned Paul's Electivire's feats before and why it holds the claim of being Paul's strongest Pokemon, I repeat them again:
Paul's Electivire is the Pokemon which deserves the claim of being Paul's strongest based on on-screen feats and depiction. It was portrayed as Paul's ace throughout the League and was Paul's ace and his last Pokemon in the rivalry climax high stakes battle between Ash and Paul in the Sinnoh League (and due to that it automatically makes a lot of narrative sense for Electivire to be Paul's strongest Pokemon).
Electivire (very likely as it was implied) 3-0 swept Paul's first opponent in the SL, demolished Barry's Empoleon (who is a High Tier 2 calibre opponent) without even breaking a sweat even after Torrent activated.
In the battle against Ash, Electivire quite easily finished off Gliscor and Pikachu without taking much damage in the process (yeah, you can argue that Pikachu and Gliscor were both significantly damaged, but considering how easily Electivire finished off both of them, it's pretty much evident that Pikachu an Gliscor would have still definitely lost even if they were at full health; matter of fact how effortlessly Electivire blocked Gliscor's Giga Impact with its bare handswithout even breaking a sweat pretty much makes it pretty much evident).
After defeating Gliscor and Pikachu, Electivire battled Ash's Infernape, and nearly defeated it almost pushing it to the brink of loosing, before Blaze activated and turned things around. Yeah, you can argue that Infernape was a bit more damaged and poisoned too, but from what we saw, it's undeniable that Electivire would've won the battle very convincingly if Blaze didn't activate: Electivire was standing pretty strong when Infernape was literally down. With Blaze, Infernape managed to overpower and overwhelm Electivire, but it's pretty much evident that even in a normal scenario, without Blaze, Infernape stands no chance of beating Motordrive activated Electivire.
Similar with Sawyer's base Sceptile, I mentioned its feats already before why it's that strong, I repeat them again:
Sawyer's Sceptile, even in its base form, was portrayed as an absolute beast even prior to the League, and even more so in the League.
Prior to the League, Sawyer's Sceptile was portrayed as pretty strong already. In XY&Z13, Sawyer's Sceptile was totally dominating and owning Ash's Greninja in its base form, before the Ash-Greninja form activated and proceeded to one-shot Sceptile. Proves how much strong Sceptile already was at that point of time.
In XY&Z26, Sawyer's Sceptile managed to pretty much dominate and defeat Ash's Greninja in its base form, yeah, Ash and Greninja being distracted due not being able to transform, but even prior to that Sceptile was pretty much dominating the fight. Proves that Sawyer Sceptile had improved even further at that time compared to XY&Z13.
In the League, Sawyer's Sceptile was shown to have improved a lot, and became a lot more powerful as evident in its League feats.
Sawyer's Slurpuff tied to Ash's Goodra, who is Goodra, who is say a Tier 3 level mon. Yes, Slurpuff had a clear type advantage, but considering it still tied, it can't be way weaker than Goodra. It's reasonable to say that Slurpuff is about a Low Tier 3 level mon.
Tierno's Blastoise one-shotted the same Slurpuff (who is about a Low Tier 3 level mon as I established earlier). With how easily Tierno's Blastoise dispatched Sawyer's Slurpuff, it has to be Leagues above Slurpuff, a.k.a., a solid higher end Tier 2 level mon.
And Sawyer's Sceptile managed to wreck Tierno's Blastoise(who is solid Tier 2) like simply a joke, without even breaking a sweat. With how easily Sceptile won, it has to be Leagues above the High Tier 2 level Blastoise, thus Sawyer's Sceptile will be pretty much well high into the Tier 1 level spectrum.
Sawyer's Sceptile also managed to finish off Ash's Pikachu, who was battling at a pretty high level in that battle (presumably Tier 1 level) pretty effortlessly without any struggle. Yeah, Pikachu was exhausted from the previous battles, but considering how easily Sceptile no sold Pikachu's moves like nothing as finished off Pikachu, it's evident that even at full health, Pikachu would've still lost decisively. Also, in the battle vs Alain, Pikachu was clearly more damaged and exhausted when it faced Alain's Charizard compared to when it faced Sceptile, and yet it managed to make Charizard kneel. So Sceptile being able to finish off Pikachu that much quickly is really impressive.
So yeah, based on these feats, I'd say Sawyer Sceptile is more or less on equal level with Ash's Sceptile (maybe just slightly weaker).
We all know that it was his starter, and has 4 regions of battle experience , and very likely Paul's strongest Pokemon at the start of DP. But that doesn't anyhow mean that it remained Paul's strongest Pokemon at the end of DP, considering Paul got a major power boost after coming to Sinnoh, and caught majority of his powerhouses in Sinnoh too. Furthermore Paul clearly relied more on those powerhouses he caught/aquired in Sinnoh at the end of DP, like Electivire and Drapion. Torterra barely even appeared in the end of DP while Paul was using those powerhouses at the end of DP/Sinnoh League, and that says something. Throughout the Sinnoh League, Electivire is clearly the one who was portrayed as Paul's ace.
Like I said before, Sawyer made a very rapid plot-powered progression which might seem unbelievable but that's actually the case(also he was mentored by Hoenn Champion Steven Stone prior to the League). His Sceptile, even in base form, was portrayed actually as that powerful in the League.
Infernape was poisoned, yep, which was an issue, but no way it was way more injured than Electivire either(considering Elective also took a bit of damage from Pikachu). Infernape took some damage from Ninjask's ineffective Giga Drain, wow, that is supposed to be so much damaging?
And you're conviniently ignoring the fact that Electivire pushed Infernape to its absolute brink before Blaze activated and turned things around. Electivire clearly would've won the battle very convincingly if Blaze didn't activate(it was standing strong when Infernape was down). And that says a lot. After Blaze, yep Infernape overpowered and overwhelmed Electivire, but overall still won barely. Blaze form provides an abnormal boost to Infernape as we have seen earlier from Infernape. In its Blaze activated Super-Saiyan mode, Infernape is actually stronger than Ash's Sceptile, it gets an abnormal stat boost.
True, but even without Motordrive is quite strong already(demolished a High Tier 2 mon like Barry's Empoleon effortlessly). Against Pokemon who knows Electric moves, it gets the Motordrive speed boost.
You’re underestimating how much Heracross and Gible helped. DE only heals the user by half the damage it dealt, so Darkrai wasn’t anywhere near full health (I’d estimate 70-80%). What Sceptile did was impressive but let’s be real; in a 1 vs 1 Darkrai would win decisively. By scaling both of them are in the same sub letter grade/sub tier and from there it’s down to individual preference, so I completely disagree with the claim that Sawyer’s Sceptile is nowhere near Ash’s Sceptile. I am fully aware of what Ash’s Sceptile has done; it’s simply that Sawyer’s Sceptile is on par based on its own feats (they both scale to the same sub letter grade). This prejudice that Sawyer’s Sceptile has some arbitrary cap because of its supposed lack of expereince is completely unfounded.Well saw sceptile in base form is no where near ash's sceptile's level, you simply cannot compare the feats a sceptile did and it completely overpowers sawyer's sceptile.
Okay then you just have vs Paul Pikachu rated higher. Electivire scales from Barry’s Empoleon whim he thrashed neg diff.As for electivire vs ash at SL. Lets be honest all it beat was gliscor and ikachu both who were near there limit. Gliscor at full power could still have lost albeit having given close fight but with pikachu I would say full healed pikachu would have beaten electivire, dont forget electivire didn't dominate pikachu they were still on equal grounds something which even shocked paul, electivire only won because of ash's mistake and the damage it took earler.
Blaze Infernape >> Motordrive Electivire > Base Infernape >= Base Electivire.As for infernape vs electivire goes, infernape was hit by toxic spikes, had his energy drained by giga drain and was hit with recoil damage twice, he definitely was low on health and strength compared to electivire who was relatively fresh something which even announcers said. Besides electivire during whole battle was boosted by motordrive during whole match. I think in a 1 on 1 match infernape will beat electivire even without his blaze.
More expereince =/= more powerful. There’s this thing called potential; some Pokémon have more of it than others which is why growth rate varies drastically between Pokémon trained by the same trainer.As for torterra he has been there with paul longest, and has very large cumulative experience than any other powerhouse he has.
Why? There’s no way a Pokémon who was made to pant against pre-training Gliscor is stronger than the Pokémon that thrashed Barry’s Empoleon neg diff. I don’t care if Paul deliberately had Torterra take those attacks; if Torterra truly was Paul’s strongest, there’s no way Glacior’s attacks should be harmful enough to make it pant that too after getting healed by Giga Drain.Writers messed up torterra's screentime for the sake of infernape vs electivre rivalry, they should have given him some feats but it is no doubt that torterra is his strongest.
Actually Charizard and later A-G prove that the starter doesn’t have to be the strongest. Electivire by feats and scaling is superior to Torterra; end of story. Also for the record A-G would beat Charizard lower mid - mid diff.Electivre was more of his signature pokemon which showcased his personality as compared to subdued and srious personality that torterra showed. It's same with ash also whose signature pokemon is pikachu but his strongest pokemon are AG or probably charizard.
Well I had already mentioned Sawyer's Base Sceptile's feats at the League and prior to the League, and they are quite impressive itself actually and especially if you look at from the progressive point of view.Well saw sceptile in base form is no where near ash's sceptile's level, you simply cannot compare the feats a sceptile did and it completely overpowers sawyer's sceptile.
True but the manner in which Electivire defeats Gliscor and Pikachu is quite noticable and hardly leaves any doubt about Electivire being the stronger Pokemon easily.As for electivire vs ash at SL. Lets be honest all it beat was gliscor and ikachu both who were near there limit.
Literally how can you say that Gliscor would have given Electivire a close fight at full health? Sure Gliscor was really wiped out at that time, but Electivire was simply no-selling Gliscor's moves effortlessly, it blocked Gliscor's strongest move Giga Impact simply with its bare hands, that says enough. Considering how Electivire was no-selling Gliscor's moves effortlessly without even a move itself, it's very unlikely that Gliscor would have given Electivire a close fight at full health.Gliscor at full power could still have lost albeit having given close fight
Sure Pikachu was damaged significantly before, and it looked competitive with Electivire before Motordrive activated. But does that anyhow mean that Pikachu would've been able to beat Electivire at full health? Heck no, because afterall if you see, Electivire still won the battle taking less damage in the process, and even after beating Pikachu it still battled Infernape afterwards and managed to push it to its brink. Considering Electivire even after beating Pikachu still had had intensely close battle with a powerhouse like Infernape afterwards, it doesn't make much sense to say that Pikachu could've beaten Electivire in that match at full health. Maybe it could've given a decently close fight, but still definitely not beating Electivire.but with pikachu I would say full healed pikachu would have beaten electivire, dont forget electivire didn't dominate pikachu they were still on equal grounds something which even shocked paul, electivire only won because of ash's mistake and the damage it took earler.
Yep Infernape was poisoned which put it at a disadvantage which was an issue. As for Flare Blitz recoil damage, it was never shown to be that significant considering Infernape even managed to resist recoil damage after being at low health after using Blaze. Regarding Giga Drain, it was an ineffective move, so likely didn't do that much. Surely Infernape was more damaged than Electivire, but it wasn't by a big margin at least (considering Electivire took a bit of damaged from Pikachu as well). The main issue was that Infernape was poisoned, but still, Electivire was winning the battle very convincingly before Blaze activated and turned things around. Electivire dominated and pushed Infernape to its absolute brink, it was standing strong while Infernape looked absolutely down. Considering how convincingly Electivire was winning the battle prior to the activation of Blaze, it's quite a stretch to claim that Infernape can beat Motordrive activated Electivire without the activation of Blaze, it's quite unlikely. It'll very likely need Blaze to pull of the win, and Blaze of course provides Infernape with an incredible and massive stat boost making it much more powerful.As for infernape vs electivire goes, infernape was hit by toxic spikes, had his energy drained by giga drain and was hit with recoil damage twice, he definitely was low on health and strength compared to electivire who was relatively fresh something which even announcers said. Besides electivire during whole battle was boosted by motordrive during whole match. I think in a 1 on 1 match infernape will beat electivire even without his blaze.
True, but like I said before, one's starter doesn't necessarily have to be one's strongest all the time. Like we saw with say, Dawn's Piplup. True, it definitely has 4 regions of cumulative experience, and was very likely Paul's strongest at the start of DP, but as evident from the Bulbasaur and Squirtle examples(they aren't stronger than Sceptile and Greninja obviously), that more experience =/= more stronger, as different Pokemon has different potential than each other, a certain Pokemon can become more stronger in a short period of time, like say, Infernape and Greninja. After coming to Sinnoh, Paul got a massive power boost as a trainer and acquired majority of his powerhouses there. And as the end of DP approached, Torterra started appearing less, and Paul relied more on those powerhouses at that time compared to Torterra. At the time of the SL, we barely even saw Torterra appearing while Paul's Electivire was portrayed as his ace throughout the League, including the rivalry climax battle between Ash and Paul. That clearly says a lot.As for torterra he has been there with paul longest, and has very large cumulative experience than any other powerhouse he has.
And still they definitely aren't stronger than Ash's powerhouses like Sceptile, Infernape and Greninja, who have lesser experience compared to them. Which shows that experience isn't everything.Ash has squirtle and bulbasaur with him from start and they are his powerhouses even without evolving that is because he has them from start and they have battled in different matches after kanto.
Writers messed up torterra's screentime for the sake of infernape vs electivre rivalry, they should have given him some feats but it is no doubt that torterra is his strongest.
Electivre was more of his signature pokemon which showcased his personality as compared to subdued and srious personality that torterra showed.
Actually the Pikachu comparison invalidates your point, because Pikachu is Ash's starter just like Torterra is for Paul. But still as you claimed, A-G and Charizard, which aren't his starters, overall bear a more stronger claim of being Ash's strongest overall.It's same with ash also whose signature pokemon is pikachu but his strongest pokemon are AG or probably charizard.