Paul: Emotionless drone or a deluxe rival?

[AgentPierce]

1. He's not an abuser. You'd have a far stronger case for Ash being one in Kanto than Paul being one. He's a coach, and a strict one.
2. He's not a bully. His comment to Maylene was rude, but commenting on one's strength does not equal bully. She really did fight horribly against him.

I can understand not liking Paul. Heck, he's not even meant to be likable. But the "Abuser"/"Bully" shouting in regards to him is horrible.

1. BS. A good coach works himself just as hard as he does the players he's coaching, a good coach cares for his players no matter how strict he is, and a good coach brings out a player's strength for that player's sake. Paul expected all his Pokemon to do all kinds of work that he himself wouldn't do, he saw them as disposable tools, not as players that he cared about, and he only cared about bringing out their strength to benefit himself.

2. Didn't you once call Iris a bully? And yet you're saying Paul isn't? Your credibility = SHOT.

And I say this change was completely random and unjustified. Nothing had happened to him that would seriously bring him to change his outlook. It would have been much more in character of him to be angry and feel humiliated at losing to a "worthless" trainer like Ash.

Exactly. The one time he showed much in the way of emotion was his epic angry breakdown as he was losing to Brandon. And as we saw in his subsequent two-episode full battle with Ash, this didn't change him one ounce; he was still a callous jerk who looked down on others. He had one brief appearance afterward, and then it was the Sinnoh League. He lost to Ash and Infernape (the Pokemon that used to be HIS), and his dream of becoming the champion went up in smoke. By all logic, he should have reacted just as violently upset as he did in the Brandon battle, as we never saw him mature past that kind of attitude. And yet....nothing. WTF!? That was just bad writing, the kind that marked Paul's entire character.

Paul wasn't meant to be a character everyone adores, however, his unlikability has the opposite effect on some fans. They're drawn to him, because he's not the generic nice guy. He's different, and different is good in a series that can get pretty bland with its characters.

How is a generic mean guy any better than a generic nice guy? Because generic is what Paul was. We've had lots of jerks in the past: Gary, Drew, Harley, several one-offs, etc. and they all were actually entertaining in their jerkishness. Even Suwama, Tepig's trainer and a grade-A scumbag, was entertaining. Paul was not. He was a bland, taken-super-seriously-all-the-damn-time, emotionless bore, and he had the same generic mean attitude and did the same generic mean things every time he appeared.

Paul was never made to be this character that everyone was gonna fan-girl over

And yet everyone goes fan-girl over him regardless, funny that.

he was a whole new idea for a rival and a pokemon character in general up until this point we hadn't seen anyone treat pokemon this way.

......Are you effing kidding me?

A whole new idea for a rival? What about THIS GUY?

We never saw anyone treat Pokemon this way? What about THIS GUY?

it's just stupid to me that they added such a great and complex character which had never been seen before on Pokemon

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Too funny!

 

[sereb devil]

Are you actually serious? During his entire time in DP he lost three battles, once against the Unova champion, one against someone with three legendaries and the head of the frontier brains, and one against Ash in the league.. That's ridiculous. I'm not a Trip hater by any stretch of the imagination, but Paul would destroyyy him.

Trip can kick Paul *** in battle with his cool *** Unova pokemon team. You mean Cynthia he didn't win against her at all and he lost that battle very fast,Paul was nothing more but a joke?

 

[Pokemaniac24]

Trip can kick Paul *** in battle with his cool *** Unova pokemon team. You mean Cynthia he didn't win against her at all and he lost that battle very fast,Paul was nothing more but a joke?

I get you don't like Paul but I really do think you have to respect him as a strong trainer. You may not agree with his methods but he is a strong trainer and he could probably beat trip easily if he used his strongest Pokemon. Paul had more experience than Trip and some really strong Pokemon. Some of which he has been with for a long time. Much longer than Trip. If you look at Paul's record, he has also gone very far in some tournaments. He won the Tag Team tournament, was 2nd in the Poke Ringer and made Top 8 of the Sinnoh League. Trip has been eliminated very early in some recent tournaments and he is still a beginner. He would struggle against Paul. He only lost 3 times. One was against Cynthia, the Sinnoh League Champion, one was against Brandon, the most powerful Frontier brain in Kanto and one was against Ash which was very close. Remember that Ash lost to Paul in a 6 on 6 battle where Ash only knocked out 2 of Paul's Pokemon.

 

[sereb devil]

Trip only lost 2 pokemon battles and he did tied with Ash on his three on three pokemon battle. By the look of it Trip would have a very hard time battling against Paul who does have very strong pokemon on his team. Trip has been training to become a stronger pokemon trainer, but he still has time to get stronger.

 

[Pokemaniac24]

Trip has potenital certainly. But judging by where Trip is now, I don't think he would beat Paul.

 

[Alfred the Second]

Say whatever you will. The way Paul treated Ash, Chimchar and Maylene confirmed to me that he is an horrible jerk with no chance of redemption.



That's EXACTLY the reason why Paul is an abuser and a bully.



And yet you say he isn't a jerk or a bully?




It wasn't shown, and his behaviour gave me no indication that he ever did. And while he would expect himself to have flaws, he's the kind of person who only considers the technical, strategical side of things. As for his attitude towards Pokemon, Paul thinks he's got it all right.



You know, I think *that* is totally in-character of Paul.



And that makes it alright? Newsflash: it doesn't. It only means that Paul is, again, a jerk and a bully. He had only done it in order to hurt the girl.

I have a certain limit after which I consider a character to be irredeemable in my eyes. Paul crossed it, and that half-assed "change" the writers gave him at the last minute won't change my opinion.

First know the difference between a jerk and an honest opinion.

Explaining to you is a waste of time, why because despite such an detail explanation I gave you still use the same words Jerk and bully. I bet you never might have met one irl. It is impossible to make sense to someone who has a baseless hate towards a certain character.


Explaining to you was a waste of time...but there are certainly others who could hoplefully read it properly.....not with the intention of contradicting every statement and quoting points convenient to you.

But I will have one more point before I make this last post in this thread......if the writers wanted to show Paul as a jerk or bully why the **** would they bother about introducing Reggie and give him a backstory.

 

[LilyTwo]

First know the difference between a jerk and an honest opinion.

Paul is a jerk. Zoey is a person who gives honest opinions.

I bet you never might have met one irl.

I met many of them irl, that's why I recognize one when I see him.

But I will have one more point before I make this last post in this thread......if the writers wanted to show Paul as a jerk or bully why the **** would they bother about introducing Reggie and give him a backstory.

To trick us into believing that he's actually sympathetic. Which I'm not going to fall for.

 

[Ash Ketchum!]

Trip only lost 2 pokemon battles

Well the series isn't over yet, so you shouldn't be comparing.

 

[DMerle]

1. BS. A good coach works himself just as hard as he does the players he's coaching, a good coach cares for his players no matter how strict he is, and a good coach brings out a player's strength for that player's sake. Paul expected all his Pokemon to do all kinds of work that he himself wouldn't do, he saw them as disposable tools, not as players that he cared about, and he only cared about bringing out their strength to benefit himself.

What about say an army trainer? Someone who's incredibly strict and demanding, everyone who's being trained by one or watches one train thinks he's a complete jerk, but afterwards when you look at the results you realise it is sometimes neccesary.

Exactly. The one time he showed much in the way of emotion was his epic angry breakdown as he was losing to Brandon. And as we saw in his subsequent two-episode full battle with Ash, this didn't change him one ounce; he was still a callous jerk who looked down on others. He had one brief appearance afterward, and then it was the Sinnoh League. He lost to Ash and Infernape (the Pokemon that used to be HIS), and his dream of becoming the champion went up in smoke. By all logic, he should have reacted just as violently upset as he did in the Brandon battle, as we never saw him mature past that kind of attitude. And yet....nothing. WTF!? That was just bad writing, the kind that marked Paul's entire character.

Brandon was a hugely important battle to Paul, the whole reason he became the sort of trainer he did was after watching his brother "give up" his trainer route and becoming a breeder after he lost to Brandon something which he saw a huge weakness, of course emotion is going to pour through. He probably hated the guy that changed his brother like that, also he was humiliated in that battle he lost all 6 of his pokemon without defeating a single one of Brandon's that's going to be really frustrating and create anger as an oppose to a hugely intense battle with Ash where he lost by one single pokemon.

How is a generic mean guy any better than a generic nice guy? Because generic is what Paul was. We've had lots of jerks in the past: Gary, Drew, Harley, several one-offs, etc. and they all were actually entertaining in their jerkishness. Even Suwama, Tepig's trainer and a grade-A scumbag, was entertaining. Paul was not. He was a bland, taken-super-seriously-all-the-damn-time, emotionless bore, and he had the same generic mean attitude and did the same generic mean things every time he appeared.

Opinion, i found Paul probably the most creative characters I've seen in Pokemon and one of the best and most innovative battlers. As for the rest of those characters you mentioned, there nothing like Paul they were sometimes playfully mean to Ash but that's about it.

And yet everyone goes fan-girl over him regardless, funny that.

Fan-girls will appear over any character, Paul has got a small but dedicated following, he's never going to have the same level of popularity as someone like Dawn or Cilan who's ultra nice to other people/pokemon.

......Are you effing kidding me?

A whole new idea for a rival? What about THIS GUY?

We never saw anyone treat Pokemon this way? What about THIS GUY?

This proves absolutely nothing, if the only evidence you have is somebody who's never appeared in the anime, and someone who appeared for 1 episode and was shown to be a jerk, and promptly defeated to prove a point then that's not much to me.

 

[☭Secret_Shocker☭]

I'm pretty neutral I guess. Since that's how his personality was scripted, I can't say anything... but I'd appreciate it more if they toned him down a little bit. He's strong to anyway.

 

[Grey Wind]

People in this fandom who honestly think THIS is deep and engaging stuff need to read/watch more fiction.

I'm gonna zoom in here and say that expecting deep and engaging stuff from a kid's show is pretty dumb. Yeah, Paul had his problems, but for Pokemon standards he was pretty great. You can't compare it to other fiction because nothing on this show is going to be very deep and engaging. Watch it with more of a child's mind.

OK, what? Combining Kanto and Johto, Gary clearly DID have a story: much more of one than Paul did, and with actual development to Gary's character in it too.

Not... not really. Gary's story was "hey I'm a jerk oh I lost I'm polite now how do you do oh I lost again TIME TO GIVE UP". I hardly think that that is any more than what Paul got.

And he only "rarely appeared" in Johto. His appearances were actually pretty evenly spread in Kanto. Paul had more only because D/P was horribly long and could afford it.

Well yeah, he appeared a bit in the sixty or so pre-league episodes, but he barely did anything. Heck, his first battle with Ash wasn't until after the Orange Islands. And then in Johto, he appeared hardly at all. Gary was a terrible rival.

1. He's not an abuser. You'd have a far stronger case for Ash being one in Kanto than Paul being one. He's a coach, and a strict one.

Ummm, so having four Pokemon (one of which that is fully-evolved) fire attacks at an unevolved Pokemon at the same time when it can't possibly defend itself isn't abuse?
uh ok

2. Didn't you once call Iris a bully? And yet you're saying Paul isn't? Your credibility = SHOT.

He actually said that Iris has "inherently malicious traits" and she could be "sent to jail for identity theft". Bully may have popped up somewhere.

 

[LilyTwo]

What about say an army trainer? Someone who's incredibly strict and demanding, everyone who's being trained by one or watches one train thinks he's a complete jerk, but afterwards when you look at the results you realise it is sometimes neccesary.

Again, an army trainer tries to bring out people's strength for the good of everyone. Paul wants his Pokemon to become strong for himself and himself only.

Brandon was a hugely important battle to Paul, the whole reason he became the sort of trainer he did was after watching his brother "give up" his trainer route and becoming a breeder after he lost to Brandon something which he saw a huge weakness, of course emotion is going to pour through. He probably hated the guy that changed his brother like that, also he was humiliated in that battle he lost all 6 of his pokemon without defeating a single one of Brandon's that's going to be really frustrating and create anger as an oppose to a hugely intense battle with Ash where he lost by one single pokemon.

And again, after that shor breakdown he was back to being an ******* and never learned anything.

Opinion, i found Paul probably the most creative characters I've seen in Pokemon and one of the best and most innovative battlers. As for the rest of those characters you mentioned, there nothing like Paul they were sometimes playfully mean to Ash but that's about it.

Creative? If you consider Paul to be creative, you need a dictionary. He's your generic run-of-the-mill jerkass who abuses Pokemon and treats people like crap.

Fan-girls will appear over any character, Paul has got a small but dedicated following, he's never going to have the same level of popularity as someone like Dawn or Cilan who's ultra nice to other people/pokemon.

Last time I checked, Paul has a HUGE fanbase both in and out of the anime, while Dawn is one of the most hated Pokemon girls ever. So your argument is null and void.

This proves absolutely nothing, if the only evidence you have is somebody who's never appeared in the anime, and someone who appeared for 1 episode and was shown to be a jerk, and promptly defeated to prove a point then that's not much to me.

Why not? DAmien is EXACLY like Paul is.

 

[AgentPierce]

What about say an army trainer? Someone who's incredibly strict and demanding, everyone who's being trained by one or watches one train thinks he's a complete jerk, but afterwards when you look at the results you realise it is sometimes neccesary.

That analogy would work....if pokemon battles were like war, but they're NOT. They're competitions like sports, and for sports, you need a coach. A coach who is strict and works you hard, but also makes an effort to better himself too and compliments or rewards his players when they do their best. Paul is not that. He's an army trainer in a competiton setting, and that makes him a complete jerk.

Yeah, Paul's an army trainer allright...like Sgt. Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket!"

as an oppose to a hugely intense battle with Ash where he lost by one single pokemon.

The pokemon that he abused and abandoned for being a worthless weakling. He should have cracked upon seeing that Ash's training methods succeeded where his failed and made his Chimchar a fully evolved, stronger pokemon capable of defeating his Electivire that he trained through his "army training." He should have realized that he wasn't as strong, cool, and effective as he thought he was. But no, apparently he was 'cause he and Ash are equally great trainers who just have different methods. Which is utter BS writing.

i found Paul probably the most creative characters I've seen in Pokemon and one of the best and most innovative battlers.

If you've seen Naruto, then you must find Sasuke Uchiha to be a creative character too because the whole thought process behind him was to be "the perfect rival." And I don't give a damn about how he is as a battler: it doesn't make up for him being boring, invincible, and a terrible person.

As for the rest of those characters you mentioned, there nothing like Paul they were sometimes playfully mean to Ash but that's about it.

The only one who was ever "playfully mean" was Drew. Gary, Harley, Suwama, and others really WERE mean.

Fan-girls will appear over any character, Paul has got a small but dedicated following, he's never going to have the same level of popularity as someone like Dawn or Cilan who's ultra nice to other people/pokemon.

What you said before is true: he wasn't made as a fangirl magnet. He was made as a fanboy magnet.

I'm gonna zoom in here and say that expecting deep and engaging stuff from a kid's show is pretty dumb.

It's not that I "expect" something to be deep and engaging: it's that fans THINK that everything Paul brought to the table was deep and engaging when it wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't!

Gary was a terrible rival

Whenever Gary DID provide conflict, he was more of a proper rival that Paul ever was. Quality is more important than quantity here.

 

[DMerle]

That analogy would work....if pokemon battles were like war, but they're NOT. They're competitions like sports, and for sports, you need a coach. A coach who is strict and works you hard, but also makes an effort to better himself too and compliments or rewards his players when they do their best. Paul is not that. He's an army trainer in a competiton setting, and that makes him a complete jerk.

He is an incredibly strict trainer your right but for the most part his results speak for themselves, i myself admit that it was overexcessive bombarding Chimchar with attack after attack but it was shown that he did that because Chimchar activated his Blaze ability when under an enormous amount of pressure and when it was close to breaking from attack after attack, yes he showed an awful lack of empathy with his Pokemon but he would never do anything uneccessarily cruel or unmerited such as Tieing Tepig up like Suwama or leaving Charmander waiting on a promise that he wouldn't fullfill like Damien. He wasn't a spiteful person just blunt and uncaring for the most part. Anyway wasn't it after Electivire wore it down and Paul taunted it at the Sinnoh league that it did finally get up and activate Blaze?

The pokemon that he abused and abandoned for being a worthless weakling. He should have cracked upon seeing that Ash's training methods succeeded where his failed and made his Chimchar a fully evolved, stronger pokemon capable of defeating his Electivire that he trained through his "army training." He should have realized that he wasn't as strong, cool, and effective as he thought he was. But no, apparently he was 'cause he and Ash are equally great trainers who just have different methods. Which is utter BS writing.

I can't convey this to you unless it's in a real life standard, if you play any sort of sports, something like boxing/soccer in a serious environment and you have a really intense match against someone, whether or not you thought they were good, bad, or indifferent by the end of it if you have lost by just a small amount you'll usually go about shaking there hands and congratulating them because your pumped up from how hard/emotional the battle was, this is what i believe Paul felt also can i again mention that he has never been a sore-loser, when he lost against both Cynthia and Brandon he quietly walked off and didn't shout/protest despite his spilling emotion during the battle against Brandon. It would of been far more "out of character" for him to scream about his loss like a spoilt kid.

If you've seen Naruto, then you must find Sasuke Uchiha to be a creative character too because the whole thought process behind him was to be "the perfect rival." And I don't give a damn about how he is as a battler: it doesn't make up for him being boring, invincible, and a terrible person.

I'm sorry i never have seen it so i can't really comment, as for boring, invincible and terrible, the former and the latter are a matter of opinion and perspective, and he wasn't shown to be invincible just incredibly tough.. Tobias is an example of being invincible, not Paul.

The only one who was ever "playfully mean" was Drew. Gary, Harley, Suwama, and others really WERE mean.

Yes but the point is with characters like Damien they were really just used to enforce that bad people lost, think about it: Damien was shown to be cruel to charmander, Ash saves charmander, charmander uses flamethrower on Damien (notice how Damien runs off screaming for his "mum" after this who is going to have an ounce of empathy or liking for him?) Ash catches Charmander, happy ending. Paul was a reocurring character with deeper emotions and a deeper storyline than this, there's so much difference between the two.

It's not that I "expect" something to be deep and engaging: it's that fans THINK that everything Paul brought to the table was deep and engaging when it wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't!

Opinionnnnn.

Whenever Gary DID provide conflict, he was more of a proper rival that Paul ever was. Quality is more important than quantity here.

And opinion again, there's nothing i can really say here.

 

[Maetch]

Paul was really just a redesigned version of Silver (the G/S/C Rival). Same general appearence, same self-centered attitude, same Pokemon training mantra of "the weak are worthless". I didn't see anything worth sympathizing for in him.

 

[AgentPierce]

Paul was really just a redesigned version of Silver (the G/S/C Rival). Same general appearence, same self-centered attitude, same Pokemon training mantra of "the weak are worthless". I didn't see anything worth sympathizing for in him.

Difference between them is that Silver had LEGITIMATE reasons for being the way he was, his behaviour and actions were NOT glossed over or excused in canon, he was acutally TOLD OFF for being such a jerk, and he learned better from his experiences until he became a friend to his pokemon and a much better person by the end. Plus, he was genuinely cool 'cause he was something of a junior criminal (which is not cool in real life, but still...) and even he never seemed to go as far in actually abusing his pokemon the way Paul did.

 

[Maetch]

Difference between them is that Silver had LEGITIMATE reasons for being the way he was, his behaviour and actions were NOT glossed over or excused in canon, he was acutally TOLD OFF for being such a jerk, and he learned better from his experiences until he became a friend to his pokemon and a much better person by the end. Plus, he was genuinely cool 'cause he was something of a junior criminal (which is not cool in real life, but still...) and even he never seemed to go as far in actually abusing his pokemon the way Paul did.

That's why I said that I didn't sympathize with Paul. At least Silver gradually figured out that his way was flawed.

 

[Breeder Drew]

Paul was more or less a trainer from Hell. That's really the only way to put it, especially since he had no motives for being the way he was.

 

[miltankRancher]

Yay. Paul is my favorite rival of all (with Gary following). Yes, he may be this one angry dude throughout the series, but his Pokemon were far more interesting than Gary. Plus, Gary started out to be somehow of a Gary Stu.

 

[AgentPierce]

Plus, Gary started out to be somehow of a Gary Stu.

Gary, a "Gary" Stu. Ha Ha.