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Paul: Emotionless drone or a deluxe rival?

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AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
... for Pokemon. It's a kid's show. People thought it was deep and engaging for a kid's show. Nobody is calling Paul the best written character in anything ever, they're calling him good in compared to other characters on the show.
Except...it's not even deep by Pokemon standards, and damn near every other major character on the show is better compared to Paul.

Again, why? You're not really backing up your argument here
Because there was true personal tension between Ash and Gary, as opposed to just disagreements on training styles that came up every time Ash and Paul met, and then disappeared after they parted ways.

... Silver and Paul had pretty much the same story. Cold and jerkish with a lack of connection with their Pokemon, became nicer and treated their Pokemon better after losing to their rival and having the champion talk to them about their style.
Except that Silver had legite reasons for being the way he was (being trained to be a criminal by his father, who then walked out on him when his organization failed), he lost to his rival in more than just one batlle (as opposed to Paul, who almost always wiped the floor with Ash), really took the champions' words about his style to heart (as opposed to Paul brushing off Cynthia's words and then Cynthia never trying to convince him otherwise again), and he was portrayed as a terrible jerk who was in the wrong, not just "someone with different methods than the norm."

No they're not? I'm sorry, but this is just clear bias against Paul.
It would take a clear bias towards Paul to think that there ever was slow, subtle character development for him.

Why do you have such a problem with people liking Paul? The people who "worship" him are in a very small minority. I could also say the same for you and your "worship" of Team Rocket and Zager.
People can like Paul all they want, but the Paul worshipers aren't in the minority on forums like this. And no, I do not "worship" Team Rocket and Zager either: I enjoy them, but I'm not going to tout them as the best thing in the show and excuse their faults as characters.

You are aware that it was pretty much the same way with Paul? Ash just repeatedly challenged him to a battle. You're just grasping at straws by saying "well Trip doesn't need to offer him anything, but PAUL SHOULD HAVE".
Except that Paul DID offer him battles back because they were for a reason, flimsy as it was: training methods. He always took Ash's challenges so he could curbstomp him time and again, proving his training style right. With Trip, Ash wants to battle him just for the heck of it, which Trip doesn't feel the need to do. It's only when Iris goads him into battling Ash that he does it, which has happened twice.

I mean seriously you come across as insane.
Oh, so the Paul haters are insane here? HOW FUNNY!

Except it isn't an opinion. It's a fact that he is popular among the pokemon fanbase, whether you like him or not. If someone thinks he was the best rival or not, that's an opinion.
Exactly. I think Paul is the worst rival ever, but I'm not going to say he's not popular. 'Cause if he wasn't, we wouldn't be having all these arguments right now, would we? To say "it's just your opinion that Paul is popular" just goes beyond idiotic.

My final say: Paul is a worthless jerk, and he's the worst thing ever to disgrace the Pokemon anime.
HEAR HEAR!

Paul was one of those more intimidating rivals for ash. Behind Gary of course. I mean the dude never smiles and always talk in his monotonic deep voice.
To me, that's not intimidating: that's just boring and unrealistic.

Remember what I said about reiterating the same rhetoric over and over and over again ... ?
Kinda like how Paul lovers repeat why he's a complex, influential, groundbreaking, awesome rival who was the best thing to ever happen to the anime? Really, why can't Lilytwo express her disgust in how Paul was as both a character and a person? The people who don't think that way are never going to get it, so why bother debating it at all?
 
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DMerle

Guess who's back
Here we go.

Except...it's not even deep by Pokemon standards, and damn near every other major character on the show is better compared to Paul.
This is opinion obviously.

Because there was true personal tension between Ash and Gary, as opposed to just disagreements on training styles that came up every time Ash and Paul met, and then disappeared after they parted ways.
How was there not a tension between the two? They were both practically opposites and that in itself caused tension.

Except that Silver had legite reasons for being the way he was (being trained to be a criminal by his father, who then walked out on him when his organization failed), he lost to his rival in more than just one batlle (as opposed to Paul, who almost always wiped the floor with Ash), really took the champions' words about his style to heart (as opposed to Paul brushing off Cynthia's words and then Cynthia never trying to convince him otherwise again), and he was portrayed as a terrible jerk who was in the wrong, not just "someone with different methods than the norm."
You know i understand that opinions may vary but i don't see how you can call him "terrible." To merit being terrible in my mind you have to go out and do something that hurts someone for absolutely no reason, Paul never did this. At most you can call Paul unsympathetic and callous and i will agree with you, but give me an example of one time when he's gone out there and done something bad purely out of cruelty or to spite someone.

It would take a clear bias towards Paul to think that there ever was slow, subtle character development for him.
Oh dear lord but there was.. There were loads of occasions where we saw him taken aback or deep in thought over something which went against his own conduct:

Ash beating Reggie
Finding out about Ash beating Pyramid King Brandon
Losing against Brandon
The Lake Acuity battle
Seeing Ash's Pikachu win against Raichu without needing to evolve
Seeing Ash's Monferno evolve and listen to Ash during Blaze (may i point out that he stepped in and helped them during this.)
Losing against Ash in the league obviously (and thanking his Electivire.. Which he had never done with any pokemon before.)

Oh, so the Paul haters are insane here? HOW FUNNY!
What she did was verging on insane, i would of pointed that out regardless of how she felt about Paul.

Kinda like how Paul lovers repeat why he's a complex, influential, groundbreaking, awesome rival who was the best thing to ever happen to the anime? Really, why can't Lilytwo express her disgust in how Paul was as both a character and a person? The people who don't think that way are never going to get it, so why bother debating it at all?
She can, but it's just frustrating when you present an argument to her backed up with evidence and explanations and she replies back with a bias, unsupported, opinionated, and frankly ludicrous pile of crap. Something along the lines of; "Paul was mean to Chimchar so he's a jerk and i don't like him"
 
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I am Lu

Well-Known Member
Kinda like how Paul lovers repeat why he's a complex, influential, groundbreaking, awesome rival who was the best thing to ever happen to the anime? Really, why can't Lilytwo express her disgust in how Paul was as both a character and a person? The people who don't think that way are never going to get it, so why bother debating it at all?
She can, she just does all the time rather than trying to make a real contribution to the discussion. It is a two-sided coin though, Paul-lovers do it too. But I've been seeing less rehashed Paul-loving rhetoric in this topic compared to Paul-hating rhetoric. It's old either way.
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
To merit being terrible in my mind you have to go out and do something that hurts someone for absolutely no reason, Paul never did this. At most you can call Paul unsympathetic and callous and i will agree with you, but give me an example of one time when he's gone out there and done something bad purely out of cruelty or to spite someone.
Ash, Chimchar and Maylene would like to have a few words with you.

Oh dear lord but there was.. There were loads of occasions where we saw him taken aback or deep in thought over something which went against his own conduct:

Ash beating Reggie
Finding out about Ash beating Pyramid King Brandon
Losing against Brandon
The Lake Acuity battle
Seeing Ash's Pikachu win against Raichu without needing to evolve
Seeing Ash's Monferno evolve and listen to Ash during Blaze (may i point out that he stepped in and helped them during this.)
Losing against Ash in the league obviously (and thanking his Electivire.. Which he had never done with any pokemon before.)
I repeat, and I will never tire of repeating, that I saw nothing of this so-called development. I just saw Paul begin a total scumbag up until the infamous Lake Acuity battle (and I maintain, had Ash called upon Sceptile, Heracross, Snorlax and some of his old Pokemon, he would have destroyed Paul). Thn, from the episode where Monferno evolved onward, he suddenly became nicer and out-of-character. Sorry, not buying it.

She can, but it's just frustrating when you present an argument to her backed up with evidence and explanations and she replies back with a bias, unsupported, opinionated, and frankly ludicrous pile of crap. Something along the lines of; "Paul was mean to Chimchar so he's a jerk and i don't like him"
You know, all your attempts at argumenting in Paul's favour sound to me like desperate attempts to explain away his cruelty. Again, the Chimchar fiasco was Paul's Moral Event Horizon - the event that sowed how utterly callous of devoid of empathy he was, and after such an act, he can't just say sorry - which, by the way, he never did - and then walk away like nothing happened.

And by the way, Paul wasn't being just mean to Chimchar. With the barrage of attacks he used of him, he could very well have killed Chimchar. How would you have acted if this happened? I'm sure you would have hated Paul just as much as I do.
 

I am Lu

Well-Known Member
I repeat, and I will never tire of repeating, that I saw nothing of this so-called development. I just saw Paul begin a total scumbag up until the infamous Lake Acuity battle (and I maintain, had Ash called upon Sceptile, Heracross, Snorlax and some of his old Pokemon, he would have destroyed Paul). Thn, from the episode where Monferno evolved onward, he suddenly became nicer and out-of-character. Sorry, not buying it.
I wouldn't say he ever became out-of-character. Even you argue he was pretty much a jerk from day one, and that never really changed that much. But when Monferno evolved, I think Paul started to realized Ash's training methods weren't as terrible as he initially thought.
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say he ever became out-of-character. Even you argue he was pretty much a jerk from day one, and that never really changed that much. But when Monferno evolved, I think Paul started to realized Ash's training methods weren't as terrible as he initially thought.
Yes, it was out of character. Considering that, up until then, he had shrugged off anything that might have caused him to rethink his methods, his in-character reaction would have been to be shocked and annoyed at the fact that the "worthless loser" Ash had managed to do what he never could.

And don't bother bringing up the Brandon issue: considering Paul destroyed Ash in their following battle (again, Paul has to count his blessings that the writers nerfed Ash in order to make Paul win), Paul's in-character reaction would have been to smirk at Ash and tell him tat his win againt Brandon was surely based on luck alone.
 

DMerle

Guess who's back
Ash, Chimchar and Maylene would like to have a few words with you.
Ash despite everything Paul said, still continued to try and make friends with him, and they left on somewhat good terms. Chimchar grew stronger and defeated Paul because of what it had been through, and frankly what Paul said to Maylene was the wake-up call she needed.

I repeat, and I will never tire of repeating, that I saw nothing of this so-called development. I just saw Paul begin a total scumbag up until the infamous Lake Acuity battle (and I maintain, had Ash called upon Sceptile, Heracross, Snorlax and some of his old Pokemon, he would have destroyed Paul). Thn, from the episode where Monferno evolved onward, he suddenly became nicer and out-of-character. Sorry, not buying it.
If you saw nothing of this development then i think you need to go back and re-watch the episodes because it was pretty damn plain to see. As for Ash winning if he used his old Pokemon.. That's completely irrelevent, he would of won a lot more DP battles if he used his old Pokemon the entire time, the fact is he didn't which makes what you said completely redundant. As for suddenly changing.. Just no, i mean the entire process was a slow thing, and it ended with him saying thankyou to his Pokemon not some huge giant gesture, but a turning point at the least.

You know, all your attempts at argumenting in Paul's favour sound to me like desperate attempts to explain away his cruelty. Again, the Chimchar fiasco was Paul's Moral Event Horizon - the event that sowed how utterly callous of devoid of empathy he was, and after such an act, he can't just say sorry - which, by the way, he never did - and then walk away like nothing happened.
Again i'm sick of arguing about this with you, what he didn't wasn't by any means the worst thing we've seen or will see in Pokemon, it was simply him taking the training too far - nothing more, and certainly not this pure evil act of terrorism that you say it is.

And by the way, Paul wasn't being just mean to Chimchar. With the barrage of attacks he used of him, he could very well have killed Chimchar. How would you have acted if this happened? I'm sure you would have hated Paul just as much as I do.
It wasn't even close to killing Chimchar or anything remotely like that, and had it had happened i still wouldn't of allowed it to cloud my perspective, everybody deserves a second chance.
 
LilyTwo, I have a question for you. What did you think of Hunter J? Did you like her character and did you consider what she did any worse than what Paul did?
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
It wasn't even close to killing Chimchar or anything remotely like that, and had it had happened i still wouldn't of allowed it to cloud my perspective, everybody deserves a second chance.
This is the last post I will make in this thread.

If this is how you think, then it's pointless to argue anymore. If you want to think Paul was this wonderful character that added so much to the show, so be it. Me, I'll hate him forever.

Now, I'll go read or write some Paul-bashing fanfiction (read: fanfaction where Paul is in-character unlike the last part of DP).
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
LilyTwo, I have a question for you. What did you think of Hunter J? Did you like her character and did you consider what she did any worse than what Paul did?
I hate Hunter J as well. She's the only character aside of Grings Kodai from the Zoroark movie that I consider to be worse than Paul.

I was very glad when she croaked.
 

DMerle

Guess who's back
This is the last post I will make in this thread.

If this is how you think, then it's pointless to argue anymore. If you want to think Paul was this wonderful character that added so much to the show, so be it. Me, I'll hate him forever.

Now, I'll go read or write some Paul-bashing fanfiction (read: fanfaction where Paul is in-character unlike the last part of DP).
Unbelievable, how can Paul act out of character when they created his character? Also congrats on your last post in this thread, it lasted an entire minute.
 

I am Lu

Well-Known Member
This is the last post I will make in this thread.
OK.

*One minute later*

I hate Hunter J as well. She's the only character aside of Grings Kodai from the Zoroark movie that I consider to be worse than Paul.

I was very glad when she croaked.
What.

Anyway...

Unbelievable, how can Paul act out of character when they created his character? Also congrats on your last post in this thread, it lasted an entire minute.
Exactly. One cannot determine whether something was in-character or out-of-character on the show. Those terms are typically reserved only for fanworks.
 
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Josef Stylin

I want to die
I hate Hunter J as well. She's the only character aside of Grings Kodai from the Zoroark movie that I consider to be worse than Paul.

I was very glad when she croaked.
Well, the writers wanted people to hate her, they made her evil like that for a reason. And actually, the same goes to Paul, he was never meant to be liked either.

And judging from the reactions from the people that hate them, I guess it's safe to say that they actually did a good job in that department. Surely, you'll agree that Paul was good at being hateable, right Lily?
 
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You obviously do not understand the difference between what is fact and opinion. What I just bolded was an opinion. You can say Paul was a terrible rival. That's an opinion. You can say Paul was a great rival. That's also an opinion.

I do understand what the difference is between opinions and facts. It is you that don't understand the difference between opinions and facts.

You can't say Paul's popularity is an opinion though. He just is. It's a fact that he's a popular character. You can't say, "Well, in my opinion, Paul isn't a popular character." You don't have to like Paul yourself, but you can't deny that an overwhelming amount of people do.

It is an opinion that he is popular not an fact. Do put words into other people's mouths, because it is not a fact that Paul is all that popular like you are trying to make it seem.

Remember what I said about reiterating the same rhetoric over and over and over again ... ?

Yeah.
I don't think you know what popularity means.




I do know what popularity means unlike you do.




I never said he was the strongest, and while Paul being my favorite rival, I never addressed any of my opinions towards him as fact. Quit trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself look better.



Nobody was trying to put any words into your mouth. You do understand what opinions means do you?




Are you really that stupid? Paul lost to the Sinnoh Champion, and the Pyramid King. Two of the strongest trainers in the anime, that's like saying your a better fighter than Muhammed Ali cause you've lost less fights.


Paul losing to Cynthia and Brandon does not proved anything. You are acting like a stupid little kid?



I hate Hunter J as well. She's the only character aside of Grings Kodai from the Zoroark movie that I consider to be worse than Paul.



Hunter J wasn't really as bad as Paul really was during his rivarly with Ash. I do see Paul as being ten times worser then Hunter J.



I was very glad when she croaked.
If she did croaked?

Well, the writers wanted people to hate her, they made her evil like that for a reason. And actually, the same goes to Paul, he was never meant to be liked either.

I do believe the writers made Hunter J to be love or hated, Paul was made in that same way.



And judging from the reactions from the people that hate them, I guess it's safe to say that they actually did a good job in that department. Surely, you'll agree that Paul was good at being hateable, right Lily?
he wasnt the greatest but id say the toughest
I do argee that he was the toughest pokemon trainer.
 
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AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
This is opinion obviously.
Yeah, that goes without saying.

How was there not a tension between the two? They were both practically opposites and that in itself caused tension.
Only opposites in how they raised their pokemon. And no, Paul's personality was not exclusively the polar opposite of Ash: it was the opposite of alot of people on the show.

Ash beating Reggie
Finding out about Ash beating Pyramid King Brandon
Losing against Brandon
The Lake Acuity battle
Seeing Ash's Pikachu win against Raichu without needing to evolve
Seeing Ash's Monferno evolve and listen to Ash during Blaze (may i point out that he stepped in and helped them during this.)
Losing against Ash in the league obviously (and thanking his Electivire.. Which he had never done with any pokemon before.)
None of those things until seeing Ash's Monferno evolve and use Blaze ever changed Paul. If he took something away from those experiences, it sure didn't show until it was too little, too late. LilyTwo is absolutely right to say there was no forgiving him by that point.

What she did was verging on insane, i would of pointed that out regardless of how she felt about Paul.
What did she do that was so insane other than professing her hatred for the character?

she replies back with a bias, unsupported, opinionated, and frankly ludicrous pile of crap. Something along the lines of; "Paul was mean to Chimchar so he's a jerk and i don't like him"
But that is fact: he WAS mean to Chimchar and he IS a jerk. To deny that is what I'd call a biased, ludicrous pile of crap.

Ash despite everything Paul said, still continued to try and make friends with him
That's 'cause Ash is an idiot.

Chimchar grew stronger and defeated Paul because of what it had been through
Through Ash's training, to be exact. No thanks to Paul at all.

and frankly what Paul said to Maylene was the wake-up call she needed.
No, it wasn't. It was just mean-spiritied bullying on his part. Zoey or Trip give brutal honesty: Paul just gives insults.

Then, from the episode where Monferno evolved onward, he suddenly became nicer and out-of-character. Sorry, not buying it.
Exactly. The last we saw of Paul, he was still a jerk with no empathy for Ash at all. Then all of a sudden, he's just an aloof but decent guy who actually cares? And we're supposed to forgive him all of his past actions even though he did absolutely nothing to earn it? LAME.

I hate Hunter J as well. She's the only character aside of Grings Kodai from the Zoroark movie that I consider to be worse than Paul.
At least J and Kodai were villains who were meant to be hated. Paul was a rival we were honestly meant to admire for some reason.

One cannot determine whether something was in-character or out-of-character on the show. Those terms are typically reserved only for fanworks.
BS. Character Derailment is something that happens on the show itself too. With Paul, he was never much of a real character to begin with, but even then they didn't go all the way with who they were writing. He was a one-note bullying jerk for three seasons and then suddenly decided to clean up his act in the fourth. It wasn't convincing when compared to how his character acted beforehand, and was a terrible attempt at character development just so that Paul could be forgiven and go off scot free.

Well, the writers wanted people to hate her, they made her evil like that for a reason. And actually, the same goes to Paul, he was never meant to be liked either.
Except he WAS meant to be liked. He's ultimately shown to be not really a bad guy, just a different kind of trainer (even though he's clearly a cold, detached, animal abusing monster) and countless characters (Barry, Cynthia, Reggie, even Brock) talk him up and act like he's really a great guy even when he's not. He's a Draco In Leather Pants, in-universe and out of it.
 

I am Lu

Well-Known Member
You do understand what opinions means do you?
I think the better question is, do you?

Paul losing to Cynthia and Brandon does not proved anything. You are acting like a stupid little kid?
... What?

It shows Paul isn't a weak trainer. I'm not saying that means Trip is a weak trainer, but the two battles he lost were to Cilan and Bianca, who both are talented in their own way, but are nothing compared to Brandon and Cynthia. Brandon and Cynthia are without a doubt some of the most powerful trainers in the entire series. Cilan and Bianca are not. Therefore, it's unfair and illogical to use "Well, Trip only lost two battles while Paul lost three" as an argument that Trip is a superior trainer. While we can't really know what would happen for sure, Paul would probably wipe the floor with Trip in a battle, like he did with Ash.
 
I think the better question is, do you?



... What?

It shows Paul isn't a weak trainer. I'm not saying that means Trip is a weak trainer, but the two battles he lost were to Cilan and Bianca, who both are talented in their own way, but are nothing compared to Brandon and Cynthia. Brandon and Cynthia are without a doubt some of the most powerful trainers in the entire series. Cilan and Bianca are not. Therefore, it's unfair and illogical to use "Well, Trip only lost two battles while Paul lost three" as an argument that Trip is a superior trainer. While we can't really know what would happen for sure, Paul would probably wipe the floor with Trip in a battle, like he did with Ash.
I never said Paul was a weak pokemon trainer, since i do believe he is strong but not the strongest trainer of the series. Brandon and Cynthia are not the only strongest pokemon trainers of the entire series since there is Drake from the Hoenn region, aswell as both Lance and Clair who are also very strong powerful pokemon trainers in the entire pokemon anime series.
 
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I am Lu

Well-Known Member
I never said Paul was a weak pokemon trainer, since i do believe he is strong but not the strongest trainer of the series. Brandon and Cynthia are not the only strongest pokemon trainers of the entire series since there is Drake from the Hoenn region, aswell as both Lance and Clair who are also very strong powerful pokemon trainers in the entire pokemon anime series.
OK... but Paul never battled Lance or Clair or Drake. That wasn't my point.
 
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