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Paul: Emotionless drone or a deluxe rival?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by Grey Wind, May 13, 2012.

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  1. AgentPierce

    AgentPierce Mad science FTW!

    Except...it's not even deep by Pokemon standards, and damn near every other major character on the show is better compared to Paul.

    Because there was true personal tension between Ash and Gary, as opposed to just disagreements on training styles that came up every time Ash and Paul met, and then disappeared after they parted ways.

    Except that Silver had legite reasons for being the way he was (being trained to be a criminal by his father, who then walked out on him when his organization failed), he lost to his rival in more than just one batlle (as opposed to Paul, who almost always wiped the floor with Ash), really took the champions' words about his style to heart (as opposed to Paul brushing off Cynthia's words and then Cynthia never trying to convince him otherwise again), and he was portrayed as a terrible jerk who was in the wrong, not just "someone with different methods than the norm."

    It would take a clear bias towards Paul to think that there ever was slow, subtle character development for him.

    People can like Paul all they want, but the Paul worshipers aren't in the minority on forums like this. And no, I do not "worship" Team Rocket and Zager either: I enjoy them, but I'm not going to tout them as the best thing in the show and excuse their faults as characters.

    Except that Paul DID offer him battles back because they were for a reason, flimsy as it was: training methods. He always took Ash's challenges so he could curbstomp him time and again, proving his training style right. With Trip, Ash wants to battle him just for the heck of it, which Trip doesn't feel the need to do. It's only when Iris goads him into battling Ash that he does it, which has happened twice.

    Oh, so the Paul haters are insane here? HOW FUNNY!

    Exactly. I think Paul is the worst rival ever, but I'm not going to say he's not popular. 'Cause if he wasn't, we wouldn't be having all these arguments right now, would we? To say "it's just your opinion that Paul is popular" just goes beyond idiotic.

    HEAR HEAR!

    To me, that's not intimidating: that's just boring and unrealistic.

    Kinda like how Paul lovers repeat why he's a complex, influential, groundbreaking, awesome rival who was the best thing to ever happen to the anime? Really, why can't Lilytwo express her disgust in how Paul was as both a character and a person? The people who don't think that way are never going to get it, so why bother debating it at all?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  2. DMerle

    DMerle Guess who's back

    Here we go.

    This is opinion obviously.

    How was there not a tension between the two? They were both practically opposites and that in itself caused tension.

    You know i understand that opinions may vary but i don't see how you can call him "terrible." To merit being terrible in my mind you have to go out and do something that hurts someone for absolutely no reason, Paul never did this. At most you can call Paul unsympathetic and callous and i will agree with you, but give me an example of one time when he's gone out there and done something bad purely out of cruelty or to spite someone.

    Oh dear lord but there was.. There were loads of occasions where we saw him taken aback or deep in thought over something which went against his own conduct:

    Ash beating Reggie
    Finding out about Ash beating Pyramid King Brandon
    Losing against Brandon
    The Lake Acuity battle
    Seeing Ash's Pikachu win against Raichu without needing to evolve
    Seeing Ash's Monferno evolve and listen to Ash during Blaze (may i point out that he stepped in and helped them during this.)
    Losing against Ash in the league obviously (and thanking his Electivire.. Which he had never done with any pokemon before.)

    What she did was verging on insane, i would of pointed that out regardless of how she felt about Paul.

    She can, but it's just frustrating when you present an argument to her backed up with evidence and explanations and she replies back with a bias, unsupported, opinionated, and frankly ludicrous pile of crap. Something along the lines of; "Paul was mean to Chimchar so he's a jerk and i don't like him"
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  3. I am Lu

    I am Lu Well-Known Member

    She can, she just does all the time rather than trying to make a real contribution to the discussion. It is a two-sided coin though, Paul-lovers do it too. But I've been seeing less rehashed Paul-loving rhetoric in this topic compared to Paul-hating rhetoric. It's old either way.
     
  4. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    Ash, Chimchar and Maylene would like to have a few words with you.

    I repeat, and I will never tire of repeating, that I saw nothing of this so-called development. I just saw Paul begin a total scumbag up until the infamous Lake Acuity battle (and I maintain, had Ash called upon Sceptile, Heracross, Snorlax and some of his old Pokemon, he would have destroyed Paul). Thn, from the episode where Monferno evolved onward, he suddenly became nicer and out-of-character. Sorry, not buying it.

    You know, all your attempts at argumenting in Paul's favour sound to me like desperate attempts to explain away his cruelty. Again, the Chimchar fiasco was Paul's Moral Event Horizon - the event that sowed how utterly callous of devoid of empathy he was, and after such an act, he can't just say sorry - which, by the way, he never did - and then walk away like nothing happened.

    And by the way, Paul wasn't being just mean to Chimchar. With the barrage of attacks he used of him, he could very well have killed Chimchar. How would you have acted if this happened? I'm sure you would have hated Paul just as much as I do.
     
  5. I am Lu

    I am Lu Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't say he ever became out-of-character. Even you argue he was pretty much a jerk from day one, and that never really changed that much. But when Monferno evolved, I think Paul started to realized Ash's training methods weren't as terrible as he initially thought.
     
  6. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    Yes, it was out of character. Considering that, up until then, he had shrugged off anything that might have caused him to rethink his methods, his in-character reaction would have been to be shocked and annoyed at the fact that the "worthless loser" Ash had managed to do what he never could.

    And don't bother bringing up the Brandon issue: considering Paul destroyed Ash in their following battle (again, Paul has to count his blessings that the writers nerfed Ash in order to make Paul win), Paul's in-character reaction would have been to smirk at Ash and tell him tat his win againt Brandon was surely based on luck alone.
     
  7. DMerle

    DMerle Guess who's back

    Ash despite everything Paul said, still continued to try and make friends with him, and they left on somewhat good terms. Chimchar grew stronger and defeated Paul because of what it had been through, and frankly what Paul said to Maylene was the wake-up call she needed.

    If you saw nothing of this development then i think you need to go back and re-watch the episodes because it was pretty damn plain to see. As for Ash winning if he used his old Pokemon.. That's completely irrelevent, he would of won a lot more DP battles if he used his old Pokemon the entire time, the fact is he didn't which makes what you said completely redundant. As for suddenly changing.. Just no, i mean the entire process was a slow thing, and it ended with him saying thankyou to his Pokemon not some huge giant gesture, but a turning point at the least.

    Again i'm sick of arguing about this with you, what he didn't wasn't by any means the worst thing we've seen or will see in Pokemon, it was simply him taking the training too far - nothing more, and certainly not this pure evil act of terrorism that you say it is.

    It wasn't even close to killing Chimchar or anything remotely like that, and had it had happened i still wouldn't of allowed it to cloud my perspective, everybody deserves a second chance.
     
  8. Pokemaniac24

    Pokemaniac24 Banned

    LilyTwo, I have a question for you. What did you think of Hunter J? Did you like her character and did you consider what she did any worse than what Paul did?
     
  9. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    This is the last post I will make in this thread.

    If this is how you think, then it's pointless to argue anymore. If you want to think Paul was this wonderful character that added so much to the show, so be it. Me, I'll hate him forever.

    Now, I'll go read or write some Paul-bashing fanfiction (read: fanfaction where Paul is in-character unlike the last part of DP).
     
  10. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    I hate Hunter J as well. She's the only character aside of Grings Kodai from the Zoroark movie that I consider to be worse than Paul.

    I was very glad when she croaked.
     
  11. DMerle

    DMerle Guess who's back

    Unbelievable, how can Paul act out of character when they created his character? Also congrats on your last post in this thread, it lasted an entire minute.
     
  12. I am Lu

    I am Lu Well-Known Member

    OK.

    *One minute later*

    What.

    Anyway...

    Exactly. One cannot determine whether something was in-character or out-of-character on the show. Those terms are typically reserved only for fanworks.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  13. Josef Stylin

    Josef Stylin I want to die

    Well, the writers wanted people to hate her, they made her evil like that for a reason. And actually, the same goes to Paul, he was never meant to be liked either.

    And judging from the reactions from the people that hate them, I guess it's safe to say that they actually did a good job in that department. Surely, you'll agree that Paul was good at being hateable, right Lily?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  14. sereb devil

    sereb devil Banned




    Nobody was trying to put any words into your mouth. You do understand what opinions means do you?






    Paul losing to Cynthia and Brandon does not proved anything. You are acting like a stupid little kid?



    If she did croaked?

    I do argee that he was the toughest pokemon trainer.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  15. AgentPierce

    AgentPierce Mad science FTW!

    Yeah, that goes without saying.

    Only opposites in how they raised their pokemon. And no, Paul's personality was not exclusively the polar opposite of Ash: it was the opposite of alot of people on the show.

    None of those things until seeing Ash's Monferno evolve and use Blaze ever changed Paul. If he took something away from those experiences, it sure didn't show until it was too little, too late. LilyTwo is absolutely right to say there was no forgiving him by that point.

    What did she do that was so insane other than professing her hatred for the character?

    But that is fact: he WAS mean to Chimchar and he IS a jerk. To deny that is what I'd call a biased, ludicrous pile of crap.

    That's 'cause Ash is an idiot.

    Through Ash's training, to be exact. No thanks to Paul at all.

    No, it wasn't. It was just mean-spiritied bullying on his part. Zoey or Trip give brutal honesty: Paul just gives insults.

    Exactly. The last we saw of Paul, he was still a jerk with no empathy for Ash at all. Then all of a sudden, he's just an aloof but decent guy who actually cares? And we're supposed to forgive him all of his past actions even though he did absolutely nothing to earn it? LAME.

    At least J and Kodai were villains who were meant to be hated. Paul was a rival we were honestly meant to admire for some reason.

    BS. Character Derailment is something that happens on the show itself too. With Paul, he was never much of a real character to begin with, but even then they didn't go all the way with who they were writing. He was a one-note bullying jerk for three seasons and then suddenly decided to clean up his act in the fourth. It wasn't convincing when compared to how his character acted beforehand, and was a terrible attempt at character development just so that Paul could be forgiven and go off scot free.

    Except he WAS meant to be liked. He's ultimately shown to be not really a bad guy, just a different kind of trainer (even though he's clearly a cold, detached, animal abusing monster) and countless characters (Barry, Cynthia, Reggie, even Brock) talk him up and act like he's really a great guy even when he's not. He's a Draco In Leather Pants, in-universe and out of it.
     
  16. I am Lu

    I am Lu Well-Known Member

    I think the better question is, do you?

    ... What?

    It shows Paul isn't a weak trainer. I'm not saying that means Trip is a weak trainer, but the two battles he lost were to Cilan and Bianca, who both are talented in their own way, but are nothing compared to Brandon and Cynthia. Brandon and Cynthia are without a doubt some of the most powerful trainers in the entire series. Cilan and Bianca are not. Therefore, it's unfair and illogical to use "Well, Trip only lost two battles while Paul lost three" as an argument that Trip is a superior trainer. While we can't really know what would happen for sure, Paul would probably wipe the floor with Trip in a battle, like he did with Ash.
     
  17. sereb devil

    sereb devil Banned

    I never said Paul was a weak pokemon trainer, since i do believe he is strong but not the strongest trainer of the series. Brandon and Cynthia are not the only strongest pokemon trainers of the entire series since there is Drake from the Hoenn region, aswell as both Lance and Clair who are also very strong powerful pokemon trainers in the entire pokemon anime series.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  18. I am Lu

    I am Lu Well-Known Member

    OK... but Paul never battled Lance or Clair or Drake. That wasn't my point.
     
  19. sereb devil

    sereb devil Banned

    I was just using them as an example.
     
  20. I am Lu

    I am Lu Well-Known Member

    Uh... For what?
     
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