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Paul vs Alan

Paul or Alan?


  • Total voters
    134
  • Poll closed .
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Franckie

Well-Known Member
Guys, Champions and E4 trainers are no longer godlike. We have to scale things appropriately. Because Paul got stomped by a Champion, he'd get stomped again by anyone in their league for the sake of consistency. I'm personally inclined to think though Paul would be scaled to top-tier trainers given the hype and plot importance he had during the Sinnoh Saga. Alas, we have nothing to work with, however.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Standby for Battle!
Paul will never be able to use Mega evolution for one simple reason. Mega Evolution requires trainer and Pokémon to have a strong bond.
That's a load of bull,it's evident that Paul has a close bond with Electivire seeing how it has similar characteristics.It requires hapiness for an Elekid to evolve,it had no trouble doing so at the Hearthome City Tag Battle Tournament.Torterra definitely had a close bond with Paul as well,otherwise it wouldn't have gotten as far as it has,and the fact that it knows Frenzy Plant which also requires happiness says a lot.



Strategy won't come out on top all the time. Ash is a strategic battler too, but even with using his best Pokémon with the best strategies he can be defeated - He had the strategy of using the masts on Drake's ship in AG to help Grovlye battle Altaria but still lost that battle terribly to the stronger trainer. Cameron's Samurott had a strategy to deal with electric type moves by using it's seamitar to block the attacks - it still fell to Pikachu. If there isn't a comparable level of strength between the two Pokémon or one Pokémon has a major disadvantage it may not be possible to create a strategy that can allow for the disadvantaged or weaker Pokémon to succeed.
Ash wasn't always known for being the smartest battler



It wasn't clear that he improved from the Cynthia battle at all. Paul stayed more or less at the same level throughout the DP series loosing as badly to Brandon as he did to Cynthia and eventually falling to Ash, who had spent the entire series improving.
He had improved since his battle with Cynthia,not sure if you were watching the same series as I was but it was very evident in the Lake Acuity battle with Ash.

It's also worth noting here that Alain has held his own against both champion Steven and Seibold of the elite four. He even beat Malva after fighting 9 other mega evolution trainers previously, although I'd still dispute whether that fight was legitimate, and he managed to get all 8 Kalos badges in remarkably short period of time. All of that suggests in terms of strength he's a cut above Paul.
All of these feats are from his Charizard,the rest of his team would all be one shoted if they were put in the same predicament.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
That's a load of bull,it's evident that Paul has a close bond with Electivire seeing how it has similar characteristics.It requires hapiness for an Elekid to evolve,it had no trouble doing so at the Hearthome City Tag Battle Tournament.Torterra definitely had a close bond with Paul as well,otherwise it wouldn't have gotten as far as it has,and the fact that it knows Frenzy Plant which also requires happiness says a lot.
The anime is always inconsistent with it's use of friendship based moves and friendship evolutions. Similar personalities may simply denote that Paul's Electivire too has a psychotic personality. Paul abused Chimchar, released Pokémon he felt were too weak, was disrespectful and obnoxious towards Ash, was cruel to Maylene and cold to his own brother. These are not traits of a person capable of forming a bond with a Pokémon whom the anime generally notes are sensitive to trainers personalities, or even a person capable of empathy or love.

Ash wasn't always known for being the smartest battler
Ash is only one example of failing strategy. Paul himself still lost terribly against Cynthia and Brandon despite having strategies.

He had improved since his battle with Cynthia,not sure if you were watching the same series as I was but it was very evident in the Lake Acuity battle with Ash.
He beat Ash because his Pokémon were stronger than Ash's. They probably were at the time he faced Cynthia too. That doesn't itself denote there had been an improvement. In any case the fact he lost to Ash at the league indicates he wasn't improving with the passage of time.

All of these feats are from his Charizard,the rest of his team would all be one shoted if they were put in the same predicament.
Alain doens't need his other Pokémon to be at Charizard's level. It's established Charizard is his main partner and that his goal is to be the best mega trainer. Even with Chairzard alone he may still be able to take out most of Paul's team - Cynthia did with Garchomp fairly effortlessly (And Cynthia too mainly uses Garchomp in most of her appearances).
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Standby for Battle!
The anime is always inconsistent with it's use of friendship based moves and friendship evolutions. Similar personalities may simply denote that Paul's Electivire too has a psychotic personality. Paul abused Chimchar, released Pokémon he felt were too weak, was disrespectful and obnoxious towards Ash, was cruel to Maylene and cold to his own brother. These are not traits of a person capable of forming a bond with a Pokémon whom the anime generally notes are sensitive to trainers personalities, or even a person capable of empathy or love.
All of these examples were shown on screen,we don't know for sure how their relationship was off screen,especially Torterra.The traits that Paul has shown weren't negative vibes long term for any of his pokemon,Chimchar is an exception because he just didn't fit in Paul's system,towards the end of episode "Battling a Thaw in Relations" Reggie gave the news to Paul's Torterra,Ursaring,Weavile,and Honchkrow that he lost at the League,they were all dissapointed,but when Reggie said when he returns to Veilstone they could have a battle together they all cheered and had smiles on their faces.



Ash is only one example of failing strategy. Paul himself still lost terribly against Cynthia and Brandon despite having strategies.
Cynthia's and Brandon's power outweighed Paul's strategies by a wide margin,Cynthia is regarded as the strongest champion if not the strongest trainer in the pokemon anime universe,Brandon has 3 powerful Regis,he was constantly switching them out which would make it nearly impossible to overcome for any normal trainer.



In any case the fact he lost to Ash at the league indicates he wasn't improving with the passage of time.
It was close,actually too close,Paul pretty much had it wrapped up with a Thunder to Infernape to seal the deal but got convenience of Blaze activating at the last second before the referee declared it unable to battle.
 
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UltimateNinja

Cute Redditmon
Paul got stomped by Brandon without winning one matchup and Ash defeated Brandon with his Kanto team. So Ash's Kanto Pokemon > Paul's team?

That's how strong Paul is lol.

Seriously now we can't be sure who would win. Charizard X could easily stomp 2 or 3 pokemon out. Paul could be superior in terms of strategic, but Alain's team have more raw power and Alain's Charizard still could defeat Malva's M-Houndoom after previously fighting 9 Mega-Evolution.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
Also Ash is far better now than he was in Sinnoh. He could probably take of a good chunk of Paul's team with just Greninja
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Standby for Battle!
Also Ash is far better now than he was in Sinnoh. He could probably take of a good chunk of Paul's team with just Greninja
Really depends on what pokemon Paul is using.

Paul got stomped by Brandon without winning one matchup and Ash defeated Brandon with his Kanto team. So Ash's Kanto Pokemon > Paul's team?
Only reason he got stomped was because the team he was using was intended for the Snowpoint City Gym Leader Candice,he went into the battle only trying to prove to his brother that he could pick up where he left off,and Brandon's Regis aren't freshly captured anymore so they're a bit stronger than they were when Ash faced them.It's hard to tell if Ash would beat 3 Regis on the battlefield using that same team ,his Charizard would be the main powerhouse from the squad,I could see it defeating one of the Regis then tying with a second one,the last one would take a group effort.
 

AuraKshatriya

Well-Known Member
My activity dropped a bit until recently, so it's been a while since I've seen you post. Good to see they're still as well-thought-out as ever. Though, I'll have to respectfully disagree on a fair number of your points. Comments in bolded Violet:


Paul will never be able to use Mega evolution for one simple reason. Mega Evolution requires trainer and Pokémon to have a strong bond. Even Korrina and Lucario struggled with and they were portrayed as close from the start, Paul's Pokémon either hated him or were given no reason to like him. Paul was callous and even cruel towards them using them only for his personal glorification. In many ways he's the most evil character in the main anime (movies excepted), except perhaps Hunter J, Giovanni and maybe Lysander. It is cannon, in the anime that friendship is the way to make Pokémon stronger and on that basis Alain would probably win. It's odd that the fandom seems to have such a draw to Paul despite being the worst handled rival of all - a sociopath with the same level of cruelty as any villain yet he receives no justice for his crimes.

I can see why Paul's bond with his Pokemon would seem like an issue. I also greatly dislike how he treated Pokemon like Chimchar. But how cold he initially was made the warmth he gradually gained throughout the Sinnoh Arc that much more compelling. But first, regarding the Korrina situation, the problem with them is that they were so close they took each other's input for granted. Lucario as a species was also implied to be subject to specific elements of its Mega Evolution - its Aura becomes completely maxed out. And since Lucario as a species regularly uses Aura to read the emotions of others and enhance their ability to sense their environment, etc., an inability to control one's Aura directly interferes with Lucario's ability to process lots of input from its environment. This was illustrated when it was only able to process information regarding its opponent - everything else was dulled.

Paul was certainly a harsh trainer, but his "cruel' training tactics were ever only seen applied to Chimchar. During the episode "Turtwig, Grotle... and Torterra!" (I can't remember the Dub Title), we even saw that Paul had arranged for his Pokemon to be looked after as they relaxed. Even when Torterra went out of his way to help out Grotle despite not having to, Paul just said he did something unnecessary, despite the fact Torterra was helping Paul's immediate competition. We gradually see Paul's treatment of his Pokemon grow more outwardly positive as the series goes on - he even reassures Electivire after it loses to Infernape in the Sinnoh League. And while he claims Aggron and Gastrodon "agreed to go down", it's unlikely they never intended to win. They likely just battled more Defensively than they otherwise would have (with Aggron using Metal Sound, and potentially wearing out Infernape with recoil from Flare Blitz, coupled with Gastrodon's Muddy Water Counter Shield).

And Mega Evolution in the anime, while appearing to require more than in the games, doesn't necessarily require an immense "bond" per se. We see in the episode where Team Rocket tried to forcibly Mega Evolve Garchomp that all that's really required from the Pokemon is their consent. A Pokemon can actively resist Mega Evolving if they don't consent to it, but otherwise just having the Keystone and Mega Stone seems sufficient. The only transformation that has been shown to require an extremely close bond is Ash-Greninja's Bond Phenomenon. Odds are Paul, by the end of the Sinnoh League, would definitely be able to use Mega Evolution if he acquired a Pokemon capable of using it.



Strategy won't come out on top all the time. Ash is a strategic battler too, but even with using his best Pokémon with the best strategies he can be defeated - He had the strategy of using the masts on Drake's ship in AG to help Grovyle battle Altaria but still lost that battle terribly to the stronger trainer. Cameron's Samurott had a strategy to deal with electric type moves by using it's seamitar to block the attacks - it still fell to Pikachu. If there isn't a comparable level of strength between the two Pokémon or one Pokémon has a major disadvantage it may not be possible to create a strategy that can allow for the disadvantaged or weaker Pokémon to succeed.

That's true, but it's worth keeping in mind that Ash had only just begun to think strategically again towards the end of that battle, after having an overconfidence streak beforehand. Not to mention Grovyle wasn't fully evolved, and Altaria had a quadruple resistance to his main attacks. And that's all before factoring in that Altaria's trainer was an Elite Four member. And I'd argue BW's battles aren't a great indication of how strategies would be overcome, but even in the case you mentioned Cameron was never written as a terribly intelligent trainer, so it's pretty believable that any strategies he would employ wouldn't be terribly effective.

He beat Ash because his Pokémon were stronger than Ash's. They probably were at the time he faced Cynthia too. That doesn't itself denote there had been an improvement. In any case the fact he lost to Ash at the league indicates he wasn't improving with the passage of time.

Paul was training far more Pokemon than Ash was throughout Sinnoh. Ash just focused on his single team of six and used reserves for early rounds of the League. The only Pokemon you could argue lost even with fair "improvement" is Electivire, and even then he was able to withstand several of Infernape's attacks even while Blaze was activated, something even Volkner's Luxray had trouble with. We also know for a fact that Drapion, who was shown to be immensely powerful, was caught a while after he released Chimchar. So I'd argue Paul showed tremendous improvement as far as his Pokemon's stength is concerned, particularly given how many Pokemon he was training at once. Many feel that had Paul just used more Pokemon he had already put more training into against Ash (like Torterra, for instance), Ash's Sinnoh Team never would have won.



It wasn't clear that he improved from the Cynthia battle at all. Paul stayed more or less at the same level throughout the DP series loosing as badly to Brandon as he did to Cynthia and eventually falling to Ash, who had spent the entire series improving. It's also worth noting here that Alain has held his own against both champion Steven and Seibold of the elite four. He even beat Malva after fighting 9 other mega evolution trainers previously, although I'd still dispute whether that fight was legitimate, and he managed to get all 8 Kalos badges in remarkably short period of time. All of that suggests in terms of strength he's a cut above Paul.

Well, Paul did use a team of unevolved Pokemon against Cynthia, barring Torterra. And several of them evolved over the course of the saga (such as Murkrow). So based on his Pokemon choice alone most of his subsequent battles did involve him in being in much better form. Brandon used Regirock, Registeel and Regice when just using one of them on a normal team is generally enough to make him the strongest Frontier Brain in Kanto. I'd argue their strength at the time was beyond that of a typical Elite Four member's (at the very least beyond that of members like Aaron), especially given they all took Super-Effective damage from Regigigas at point-blank range, whose strength is comparable to Kyogre and Groudon. Alain's Charizard after Mega Evolution was OHKO'd by Groudon post-Primal Reversion. So the implication is that Brandon would probably give Alain trouble as well. And suggesting Ash won against him as a counterpoint isn't quite valid, since Ash won against him while Brandon was using a Regice after just catching it. The only clear measure of Ash's strength compared to Brandon's was Sceptile VS Regirock, since he had Regirock long before the others. Even with a type advantage and underhanded tactics Ash still lost.

Regarding Alain battling Siebold and Steven, he just didn't immediately lose against either of them. We've never seen Paul battle against an Elite Four member, but there is likely a bit of variation in their strength. Elite Four Aaron's Pokemon took noticeable damage even from Team Rocket's attacks, whereas Flint's Infernape alone was able to KO two of Cynthia's Pokemon and nearly KO Garchomp afterwards. So we can't know for sure where Siebold stands amongst the other Elite Four. But in either case, he's weaker than Cynthia. Charizard taking the initial Dragon Pulse was very impressive. But we can't know for sure how much stronger Cynthia is than Siebold, and by extension Alain. Yes, managing to take attacks from Steven's Mega Metagross is also impressive, but both Flash Cannon and Meteor Mash were resisted (and the former didn't get a Tough Claws boost, either). And Metagross didn't seem to take any damage from Blast Burn - the same move that KO'd Malva's Mega Houndoom through its resistance. So the implication is that Champions are much stronger than Elite Four members, one of whom Alain managed to defeat. Torterra is probably near Elite Four level, given Ashs Torterra could already hold his own against Bertha's ace Pokemon, and Paul's had his for MUCH longer.
 
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Janovy

Banned
Also Ash is far better now than he was in Sinnoh. He could probably take of a good chunk of Paul's team with just Greninja
What kind of argument is this?

Yes, trainers grow, so isn't Paul allowed to grow too? Or are you just assuming Paul has been sitting on his ass doing nothing?

Current Paul is probably far better than Sinnoh Paul as well, so your argument falls apart right there.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Mistress 9
What kind of argument is this?

Yes, trainers grow, so isn't Paul allowed to grow too? Or are you just assuming Paul has been sitting on his ass doing nothing?

Current Paul is probably far better than Sinnoh Paul as well, so your argument falls apart right there.
Current Paul would probably beat Ash, assuming if he returned and they battled again similar to when Gary returned and battled Ash at the end of the Battle Frontier.
 

clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
I wasn't sure at first, but after seeing the League it's quite clear: Alain wrecks all. Including dreams.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
While I don't like the fact that Alain won the Kalos League, I'd say it settles the Alain vs Paul question. Alain can win 6 v 6 battles consistently against powerful trainers, including against Ash who had himself beaten Paul in a 6 v 6 battle. There is no reason to believe he isn't a tier above Paul.

Current Paul would probably beat Ash, assuming if he returned and they battled again similar to when Gary returned and battled Ash at the end of the Battle Frontier.
We don't know what current Paul is like or what Pokémon he's using, so it's a stretch to assume he'd win against Ash purely on the fact that Gary won a causal battle against Ash at the end of AG. Given Greninja nearly beat the champion, while Paul lost badly when he tried it seems more likely Ash would continue to be better than Paul.
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Standby for Battle!
There is no reason to believe he isn't a tier above Paul.
The reason being Alain has a Barry-esque team,the reason being Paul has a more balanced rotation of Pokemon,the reason being Paul is a better battler,the reason being Paul has the same opportunities as Ash and Sawyer for a mega-evolution.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
The reason being Alain has a Barry-esque team,the reason being Paul has a more balanced rotation of Pokemon,the reason being Paul is a better battler,the reason being Paul has the same opportunities as Ash and Sawyer for a mega-evolution.
I mean, if Alain's Charizard is anywhere close to Cynthia's Garchomp-tier, then it would just start smashing regardless of strategy. Paul's Torterra landed good hits on Garchomp, but lost anyway. Unless Paul cheeses with Destiny Bond.

Plus, Alain's Bisharp is a beast. I think it goes either way. Paul is the better battler, but Alain has superior firepower.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Standby for Battle!
Plus, Alain's Bisharp is a beast. I think it goes either way. Paul is the better battler, but Alain has superior firepower.
If we're going by firepower

Paul's Torterra<<<<<<<Alain's Charizard
Paul's Electivire>>>>>>Alain's Bisharp
Paul's Ursaring>>>>>>Alain's Metagross
Paul's Drapion>>>>>>>Alain's Tyranitar
Paul's Magmortar>>>>>Alain's Weavile
Paul's Honchkrow>>>>>Alain's Unfezant
 

Navin

MALDREAD
If we're going by firepower

Paul's Torterra<<<<<<<Alain's Charizard
Paul's Electivire>>>>>>Alain's Bisharp
Paul's Ursaring>>>>>>Alain's Metagross
Paul's Drapion>>>>>>>Alain's Tyranitar
Paul's Magmortar>>>>>Alain's Weavile
Paul's Honchkrow>>>>>Alain's Unfezant
Look I know you're the "#1 Paul/Shinji fan" but c'mon.

Problem is Pikachu went so god-mode against Alain that for all we know, Tyranitar and Metagross might have actually been very powerful. And Mega Charizard X is steroidal raid boss material. It's going to be a close fight regardless unless Paul cheeses with Destiny Bond.
 
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