Paul vs Alan

[Pikachu52]

You still haven't answered my question from earlier when I asked where you'd rank Alain above Paul,Frontier Brain level,Elite Four level,or Champion level?

Personally I'm not convinced those levels necessarily accurately reflect the strength and ability difference between the four types of trainers. There's a significant jump between Paul and Frontier Brain as Brandon proved but it's not clear how Brandon would fare against a member of the elite four or a champion. It probable that Brandon is well below Elite four level given Ash could beat him but not Flint. On that basis I would put Alain somewhere between Frontier Brain and Elite Four.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Personally I'm not convinced those levels necessarily accurately reflect the strength and ability difference between the four types of trainers. There's a significant jump between Paul and Frontier Brain as Brandon proved but it's not clear how Brandon would fare against a member of the elite four or a champion. It probable that Brandon is well below Elite four level given Ash could beat him but not Flint. On that basis I would put Alain somewhere between Frontier Brain and Elite Four.

Brandon wasn't the only one to show such immense strength,there's also the Frontier Brain Tower Tycoon Palmer who had little trouble making work of Ash's Grotle.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP499QoHxMA

 

[Sitar]

The thing is, while Paul is undeniably way more clever, Alain has undeniably way stronger team (thanks to Charizard of course, however Metagross and Bisharp are not pushovers too). So his megaCharizard can do the same thing to Paul`s pokemons which Cynthia`s Garchomp did: OHKO everyone except Drapion, Electivire and Ursaring (who would be 2HKOed). Paul`s only hope lies in smart use of poison strategy, assuming Alain does not just order his pokemon to fly constantly or burn toxins out. So... Paul is better trainer, however Alain is stronger

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

The thing is, while Paul is undeniably way more clever, Alain has undeniably way stronger team (thanks to Charizard of course, however Metagross and Bisharp are not pushovers too). So his megaCharizard can do the same thing to Paul`s pokemons which Cynthia`s Garchomp did: OHKO everyone except Drapion, Electivire and Ursaring (who would be 2HKOed). Paul`s only hope lies in smart use of poison strategy, assuming Alain does not just order his pokemon to fly constantly or burn toxins out. So... Paul is better trainer, however Alain is stronger

Having one main powerhouse along with decent battlers doesn't equal to having a stronger team,at least not in this case.Paul's Torterra,Electivire,Ursaring,Drapion,Magmortar,and Honchkrow are Paul's main powerhouses,they each can take a ton of hits without fainting and have a lot of stamina.Alain's Charizard is not 1HKOing or 2HKOing any of those pokemon because when Paul faced Cynthia most of his pokemon weren't in their final stages and weren't fully trained enough yet.Torterra took several x scissors and poison fangs from Ash's Gliscor never fainted,it's only loss on screen was against Cynthia's Garchomp.Electvire never goes down without taking knocking out another pokemon(exluding the Brandon battle)It's special ability is Motor Drive so if Alain's Charizard uses Thunder Punch it's speed will increase greatly,and like it's always been known for doing since the beginning it relies on protect to prevent any damage from occuring,at the SL it took out Barry's Empoleon,Ash's Gliscor/Pikachu,and almost Infernape had it not been for Blaze activating at the last second.Ursaring withstood Focus Punch and Zap Cannon from Brandon's Regice,took out half of Ash's team at Lake Acuity 6 on 6,then knocked out Barry's Hitmonlee despite getting hit by many effective moves.If Ursaring uses bulk up it increases it's attack and defense,combine that with Guts ability it's practically unstoppable.Magmortar has a lot of defense and only lost one time on screen which was in a battle against Brandon's Regirock,it took a powered up hydro cannon from Barry's Empoleon without fainting.Honchkrow never tires out and only lost on screen to Cynthia's Garchomp,its super luck ability increases its critical hit ratio.Drapion has versatility in Toxic Spikes which can spread onto the battlefield and posion the rest of Alain's team,it can also take a lot of hits and managed to take out half of Ash's team at the SL.




Paul's Torterra: Overgrow increases any grass-type move's power whenever on the verge of fainting.
Paul's Electivire: Motor Drive increases its speed when hit by an electric-type move
Paul's Ursaring: Guts activates if affected by status conditions like burned,poisoned,paralyzed etc.
Paul's Magmortar: Flame Body burns opponent if contact is made from any multi-strike moves
Paul's Honchkrow: Super Luck Increases the critical hit ratio
Paul's Aggron: Rock Head prevents any recoil damage from occuring
Paul's Froslass: Snow Cloak activates whenever hail occurs allowing it to appear and disappear repeatedly
Paul's Ninjask: Speed Boost increases speed during a start of a battle or when a previous pokemon fainted

 

[Wednesdayz]

Alain would win because he's practically made of hax. He's the human version of Thunder Armor-clad Swellow.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

He's the human version of Thunder Armor-clad Swellow.

Lol not this sh*t again

Take away the thunder armor it's still Ash's best bird/flying type and..........

Swellow w/Bravebird>>>>>>>>>Pikachu w/Volt Tackle

 

[Sitar]

Having one main powerhouse along with decent battlers doesn't equal to having a stronger team,at least not in this case.Paul's Torterra,Electivire,Ursaring,Drapion,Magmortar,and Honchkrow are Paul's main powerhouses,they each can take a ton of hits without fainting and have a lot of stamina.Alain's Charizard is not 1HKOing or 2HKOing any of those pokemon because when Paul faced Cynthia most of his pokemon weren't in their final stages and weren't fully trained enough yet.

True, Paul has more balance team. Nevertheless it is not as strong should they face each other
Thats why Charizard would not OHKO but 2HKO best paul`s Pokemons. None of them ever sustained much damage from really high level opponents, higher than them. If elite level Regirock can OHKO quite strong Sceptile and 2HKO Electabuzz with Protect, then I dont see why champion level megaCharizard would need more than 2 attacks to deal with anything Paul can oppose him
And... are you serously comparing Gliscor to Char? They are in very different leagues. As are megaCharizard and Electivire, who would never be able to pass 9 megaEvolutions and then defeat elite 4 member. Paul team is good but only compared to opponents close to his level

 

[Genaller]

I'm just going to do a hypothetical Paul vs Alain for fun though this time I'm not sure how accurate I'll be. I consider Paul's strongest/most diverse team to be Torterra, Drapion, Electivire, Magmotar, Ursaring, Froslass.

Torterra vs Tyranitar -> Torterra (recalled)
Magmotar vs Weavile -> Magmotar
Magmotar vs Bisharp -> Bisharp (recalled)
Unfezzant vs Drapion -> Drapion (recalled)
Froslass vs Metagross -> Metagross
Torterra vs Metagross -> Torterra
Torterra vs Charizard -> Charizard (recalled)
Drapion vs Bisharp -> Bisharp
Ursaring vs Bisharp -> Ursaring
Ursaring vs Charizard -> Charizard
Electivire vs Charizard -> Electivire or Electivire vs Mega Charizard X -> Mega Charizard X

Paul wins if Alain doesn't use ME, but Alain wins with ME. We don't know if Alain will ever use ME again, so it is currently possible for Paul to win using his best team.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

True, Paul has more balance team. Nevertheless it is not as strong should they face each other
Thats why Charizard would not OHKO but 2HKO best paul`s Pokemons. None of them ever sustained much damage from really high level opponents, higher than them. If elite level Regirock can OHKO quite strong Sceptile and 2HKO Electabuzz with Protect, then I dont see why champion level megaCharizard would need more than 2 attacks to deal with anything Paul can oppose him
And... are you serously comparing Gliscor to Char? They are in very different leagues. As are megaCharizard and Electivire, who would never be able to pass 9 megaEvolutions and then defeat elite 4 member. Paul team is good but only compared to opponents close to his level

Look I understand that Alain's Charizard is a bad*** and wouldn't have too much trouble taking any of them out 1 on 1 but there's no way it's knocking out all of them in a 6 on 6 full battle.Torterra,Electivire,Ursaring,and Drapion are all capable of taking out half a team and that includes Alain's team.Brandon's Regirock took out Electabuzz pretty easily but gotta remember that it wasn't in its final stage.I'm not comparing Gliscor to anybody,all I said was that Torterra took a lot of effective moves and despite of all that it was still standing.Electivire is more than capable of mega evolving just like everyone else.The thing with Paul's team is that there aren't any trainers his level that compare to a team of that caliber,only one I could name is Ash but he'd have to gather up his strongest pokemon to do it.

I'm just going to do a hypothetical Paul vs Alain for fun though this time I'm not sure how accurate I'll be. I consider Paul's strongest/most diverse team to be Torterra, Drapion, Electivire, Magmotar, Ursaring, Froslass.

Torterra vs Tyranitar -> Torterra (recalled)
Magmotar vs Weavile -> Magmotar
Magmotar vs Bisharp -> Bisharp (recalled)
Unfezzant vs Drapion -> Drapion (recalled)
Froslass vs Metagross -> Metagross
Torterra vs Metagross -> Torterra
Torterra vs Charizard -> Charizard (recalled)
Drapion vs Bisharp -> Bisharp
Ursaring vs Bisharp -> Ursaring
Ursaring vs Charizard -> Charizard
Electivire vs Charizard -> Electivire or Electivire vs Mega Charizard X -> Mega Charizard X

Paul wins if Alain doesn't use ME, but Alain wins with ME. We don't know if Alain will ever use ME again, so it is currently possible for Paul to win using his best team.

What exactly makes Froslass better than Honchkrow?

Torterra vs Tyrantitar-> Torterra(recalled)
Magmortar vs Weavile-> Magmortar
Magmortar vs Bisharp-> Magmortar(recalled)
Drapion vs Metagross->Drapion(recalled)
Drapion vs Unfeazant->Drapion
Drapion vs Charizard->Charizard
Froslass vs Charizard-> Charizard
Magmortar vs Charizard->Charizard
Ursaring vs Charizard->Charizard
Electivire vs Charizard->Charizard
Torterra vs Charizard->Torterra

 

[Sitar]

Why not? Garchomp would be able to do the same thing. When your pokemon is several ranks lower than enemy one, it is obvious that he will be knocked out quickly without inflicting much damage. Electabuzz is weaker than Electivire, but Regirock is also weaker than Charizard, and eventual result would be similiar. And Paul`s Electivire does not have any mega, it is pure speculation.
Torterra... surely, she took a lot of effective moves. From who? From quite low level pokemon (compated to electivires, to say nothing of the dusclopses, mega blastoises and garchomps). But to withstand, lets say, 6 attacks from Gliscor is less impressive than withstanding 1 attack from pokemon of Lisandre`s gyarodos level. Thats my point; Torterra and Ursaring have high hp on paper but it wont matter much should they face opponent stronger than them, not weaker (like Gliscor or Hitmonlee)
I agree that Paul would 100% defeat Alain`s team... if it did not include Charizard. With champion level pokemon situation is mirror reversed (for example, shoud he go out vs Ash in league as first rather than last, final score would likely be 6-0), just too much of brute power to overcome. However for his level Paul is really impressive trainer. That said, his team is still weaker than Alain`s. And definitely weaker tha Ash`s best team, and he would lose to both, even though he is smarter than them

Drapion vs Charizard->Charizard
Froslass vs Charizard-> Charizard
Magmortar vs Charizard->Charizard
Ursaring vs Charizard->Charizard
Electivire vs Charizard->Electivire

Possible outcome. Assuming Charizard does not mega evolve AND gets poisoned

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Why not? Garchomp would be able to do the same thing. When your pokemon is several ranks lower than enemy one, it is obvious that he will be knocked out quickly without inflicting much damage. Electabuzz is weaker than Electivire, but Regirock is also weaker than Charizard, and eventual result would be similiar. And Paul`s Electivire does not have any mega, it is pure speculation.
Torterra... surely, she took a lot of effective moves. From who? From quite low level pokemon (compated to electivires, to say nothing of the dusclopses, mega blastoises and garchomps). But to withstand, lets say, 6 attacks from Gliscor is less impressive than withstanding 1 attack from pokemon of Lisandre`s gyarodos level. Thats my point; Torterra and Ursaring have high hp on paper but it wont matter much should they face opponent stronger than them, not weaker (like Gliscor or Hitmonlee)
I agree that Paul would 100% defeat Alain`s team... if it did not include Charizard. With champion level pokemon situation is mirror reversed (for example, shoud he go out vs Ash in league as first rather than last, final score would likely be 6-0), just too much of brute power to overcome. However for his level Paul is really impressive trainer. That said, his team is still weaker than Alain`s. And definitely weaker tha Ash`s best team, and he would lose to both, even though he is smarter than them


Possible outcome. Assuming Charizard does not mega evolve AND gets poisoned

Alain's Charizard isn't on Cynthia's Garchomp's level,if it was then Alain would be Kalos Champion instead of Diantha,it's more comparable to an elite four if we want to get realistic here.If Electivire did have Mega Evolution he'd be more evenly matched with Charizard.

Paul's Torterra: Overgrow increases any grass-type move's power whenever on the verge of fainting.
Paul's Electivire: Motor Drive increases its speed when hit by an electric-type move
Paul's Ursaring: Guts activates if affected by status conditions like burned,poisoned,paralyzed etc.
Paul's Magmortar: Flame Body burns opponent if contact is made from any multi-strike moves
Paul's Honchkrow: Super Luck Increases the critical hit ratio
Paul's Aggron: Rock Head prevents any recoil damage from occuring
Paul's Froslass: Snow Cloak activates whenever hail occurs allowing it to appear and disappear repeatedly
Paul's Ninjask: Speed Boost increases speed during a start of a battle or when a previous pokemon fainted

 

[Sitar]

...seroiusly? Elite level pokemon would never be able to defeat 9 mega evos in row, with no rest, and then defeat another elite pokemon. And hold its own against champion Metagross. No, it is definitely champion level. That said, while Charizard looks as powerful as Garchomp, Alain is not as powerful as Cynthia/Diantha. Simply because his team is unbalanced: his other pokemons are waay worse than Charizard X. And he would lose full battle
Mega Electivire I guess would do vs megaChar as well as Ash-greninja did

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

...seroiusly? Elite level pokemon would never be able to defeat 9 mega evos in row, with no rest, and then defeat another elite pokemon. And hold its own against champion Metagross. No, it is definitely champion level. That said, while Charizard looks as powerful as Garchomp, Alain is not as powerful as Cynthia/Diantha. Simply because his team is unbalanced: his other pokemons are waay worse than Charizard X. And he would lose full battle
Mega Electivire I guess would do vs megaChar as well as Ash-greninja did

You'll have to retract your statement if Cynthia or any Elite Four member comes out with a mega evolved pokemon,then you'll understand why Charizard isn't champion level.

 

[Sitar]

Obviously her garchomp would become stronger than champion level should he mega evolve (while Charizard presumably reached his peak already). Doesnt contradict my points at all
And... Malva had mega evolution. So did Steven and Siebold. Anyway the only elite 4 member in anime with pokemon higher than his level (i.e. champion level, which might repeat what Charizard did) imho is Flint

 

[Genaller]

Look I understand that Alain's Charizard is a bad*** and wouldn't have too much trouble taking any of them out 1 on 1 but there's no way it's knocking out all of them in a 6 on 6 full battle.Torterra,Electivire,Ursaring,and Drapion are all capable of taking out half a team and that includes Alain's team.Brandon's Regirock took out Electabuzz pretty easily but gotta remember that it wasn't in its final stage.I'm not comparing Gliscor to anybody,all I said was that Torterra took a lot of effective moves and despite of all that it was still standing.Electivire is more than capable of mega evolving just like everyone else.The thing with Paul's team is that there aren't any trainers his level that compare to a team of that caliber,only one I could name is Ash but he'd have to gather up his strongest pokemon to do it.



What exactly makes Froslass better than Honchkrow?

Torterra vs Tyrantitar-> Torterra(recalled)
Magmortar vs Weavile-> Magmortar
Magmortar vs Bisharp-> Magmortar(recalled)
Drapion vs Metagross->Drapion(recalled)
Drapion vs Unfeazant->Drapion
Drapion vs Charizard->Charizard
Froslass vs Charizard-> Charizard
Magmortar vs Charizard->Charizard
Ursaring vs Charizard->Charizard
Electivire vs Charizard->Charizard
Torterra vs Charizard->Torterra

The way I see it, Honchkrow = Staraptor whereas Froslass pushed SL Pikachu like how Metagross pushed KL Pikachu so that's why I paired the 2 of them up in this hypothetical match. I think Metagross pushed KL Pikachu more and I'd put KL Pikachu slightly over SL Pikachu, so that's why I'd say Metagross would take that battle, but the win would be hard fought. Drapion won't be able to do the kind of damage to Alain's team that it could do to Ash's team because Alain has 2 flying types that won't immediately be poisoned and better yet 2 steel types that are outright immune to poison. Drapion can likely do to Unfezzant what it did to Staraptor, but it's definitely not overpowering Charizard like that and Charizard can also Blast Burn the field in a manner analogous to underground Flare Blitz in order to eliminate toxic spikes. Bisharp is basically the perfect counter to Drapion since all of its moves would be effective on Drapion, but Drapion can only spam Pin Missle. Alain's Weavile is shown to be very agile and evasive meaning that by the Time Magmotar KOs it, it will likely have accumulated significant fatigue. Paul would not switch out Magmotar since it would have the type advantage over Bisharp. Bisharp would immediately thunder wave Magmotar further hindering its mobility. Bisharp would then proceed to use Guillotine and Magmotar would use Flamethrower, but Gulloitine would slash right through it and Magmotar then goes down. Paul finally beats Bisharp by baiting it to use TW on Ursaring which triggers Guts and then Ursaring proceeds to overpower Bisharp. Torterra has incredible endurance, but it would still fall to Blast Burn. I would compare Paul's Pokémon to Ash's like so

-Tier 1
Torterra, Electivire, Drapion, Guts Ursaring
-Tier 2
Ursaring, Magmotar, Froslass, Nidoking, Ninjask, Gliscor
-Tier 3
Aggron, Gastrodon, Honchkrow, Weavile, Haryiama

If we exclude AG, Paul vs Ash would be a close match with their best teams, but Ash would take the match mid diff if he has AG.

 

[Sitar]

-Tier 1
Torterra, Electivire, Drapion, Guts Ursaring
-Tier 2
Ursaring, Magmotar, Froslass, Nidoking, Ninjask, Gliscor

Why Torterra higher than Ursaring? He took more damage from Barry than Torterra from Ash and seems to have more raw power...

And Froslass was able to do smth only due to her ability, she has very little hp

Anyway Alain does not need 6 pokemons to defeat Paul, 1 is enough. The only problem for Charizard is poison which should be avoided

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

The way I see it, Honchkrow = Staraptor whereas Froslass pushed SL Pikachu like how Metagross pushed KL Pikachu so that's why I paired the 2 of them up in this hypothetical match. I think Metagross pushed KL Pikachu more and I'd put KL Pikachu slightly over SL Pikachu, so that's why I'd say Metagross would take that battle, but the win would be hard fought. Drapion won't be able to do the kind of damage to Alain's team that it could do to Ash's team because Alain has 2 flying types that won't immediately be poisoned and better yet 2 steel types that are outright immune to poison. Drapion can likely do to Unfezzant what it did to Staraptor, but it's definitely not overpowering Charizard like that and Charizard can also Blast Burn the field in a manner analogous to underground Flare Blitz in order to eliminate toxic spikes. Bisharp is basically the perfect counter to Drapion since all of its moves would be effective on Drapion, but Drapion can only spam Pin Missle. Alain's Weavile is shown to be very agile and evasive meaning that by the Time Magmotar KOs it, it will likely have accumulated significant fatigue. Paul would not switch out Magmotar since it would have the type advantage over Bisharp. Bisharp would immediately thunder wave Magmotar further hindering its mobility. Bisharp would then proceed to use Guillotine and Magmotar would use Flamethrower, but Gulloitine would slash right through it and Magmotar then goes down. Paul finally beats Bisharp by baiting it to use TW on Ursaring which triggers Guts and then Ursaring proceeds to overpower Bisharp. Torterra has incredible endurance, but it would still fall to Blast Burn. I would compare Paul's Pokémon to Ash's like so

-Tier 1
Torterra, Electivire, Drapion, Guts Ursaring
-Tier 2
Ursaring, Magmotar, Froslass, Nidoking, Ninjask, Gliscor
-Tier 3
Aggron, Gastrodon, Honchkrow, Weavile, Haryiama

If we exclude AG, Paul vs Ash would be a close match with their best teams, but Ash would take the match mid diff if he has AG.

Honchkrow is stronger than Starptor,in the pokeringer Staraptor tagged Honchkrow several times with close combat but didn't get knocked out or get any fatigue,at the Lake Acuity it received little to no damage against Grotle then got recalled,the only thing Froslass pushed in the battle against Pikachu was the Snow Cloak ability but outside of that Honchkrow is physically stronger than Froslass and can take more hits.Even if Drapion couldn't poison them it still has pin missile,cross poison,and the ability to grab a pokemon from behind or in front with its vice grips if any pokemon tries a close range attack.Bisharp and Weavile aren't taking out Drapion or Magmortar,Magmortar would just counter Bisharp's gulloitine with rock tomb to prevent any damage from occuring then use smog to poison Bisharp.

-Tier 1
Torterra,Electivire,Ursaring,Drapion
-Tier 2
Honchkrow and Magmortar
-Tier 3
Nidoking,Hariyama,Gliscor
-Tier 4
Aggron,Weavile,Gastrodon,Froslass,Ninjask



Paul's Torterra: Overgrow increases any grass-type move's power whenever on the verge of fainting.
Paul's Electivire: Motor Drive increases its speed when hit by an electric-type move
Paul's Ursaring: Guts activates if affected by status conditions like burned,poisoned,paralyzed etc.
Paul's Magmortar: Flame Body burns opponent if contact is made from any multi-strike moves
Paul's Honchkrow: Super Luck Increases the critical hit ratio
Paul's Aggron: Rock Head prevents any recoil damage from occuring
Paul's Froslass: Snow Cloak activates whenever hail occurs allowing it to appear and disappear repeatedly
Paul's Ninjask: Speed Boost increases speed during a start of a battle or when a previous pokemon fainted

Why Torterra higher than Ursaring? He took more damage from Barry than Torterra from Ash and seems to have more raw power...

Because Torterra is Paul's starter and his most powerful pokemon,it also has a natural high defense,and besides it was never able to prove itself at the league,Paul assumably used it in the earlier rounds off screen.In all the battles it was in it had 1 extremely strong opponent in Cynthia's Garchomp and 3 easy opponents in Brock's Croagunk,Holly's Farfetch'd,and Ash's Gliscor.

 

[Sitar]

Starter Pokemon is not always the most powerful. For example, Lisandre`s Gyarodos >>> Pyroar, Ash-Greninja > Pikachu. If Torterra was that good, it would not almost lose to Gliscor (not especially powerful Pokemon), even taking into account type. And yeah, Torterra did not have enough screen time to tell for sure how good or not good it is. Imho Electivire, Drapion or Ursaring are better - more impressive deeds

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Torterra did not have enough screen time to tell for sure how good or not good it is. Imho Electivire, Drapion or Ursaring are better - more impressive deeds

This is why you can't refute that Torterra isn't his strongest,Electivire,Drapion,and Ursaring all had a chance to prove their worth at the SL but not Torterra for whatever reason so it was never used to its full potential.Torterra has been traveling with Paul for a very long time,(Hoenn,Johto,and Kanto),Electivire was still in its first stage in its debut in the Sinnoh region and Paul caught Ursaring in Sinnoh as well,this is like saying Ash's Sceptile,Infernape,and Greninja are better than Ash's Charizard.

Most Experienced + Most Powerful = Number 1