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Paul's Epilogue: aka, Getting Away With Murder

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by LilyTwo, Mar 6, 2011.

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  1. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    One of the things that infuriated me the most about the DP was the fact that Paul did not seem - to me, at least - to get a proper punishment for his attitude, especially towards Ash and Chimchar. It just felt like that Paul's character was suddently changed after his infamous 6-on-6 battle with Ash in order for him to be exonerated from the call-out he really deserved, and Paul's final scene left quite a bitter taste in my mouth.

    Any thoughts about this? Is there anyone who didn't feel satisfied at the way Paul's character arc was wrapped up?
  2. Thriller

    Thriller Its almost time

    I could care less for the Paul & Chimchar stuff, Chimchar didn't deserve respect. F*cking baby. It was absolutely useless in the Tag Battle arc because it was such a wimp.

    I knew Chimchar wasn't going anywhere when Ash got it, so I had to accept the only way for it to get strong is to evolve.
  3. Kameinu

    Kameinu Go, Gible!

    The world isn't perfect. Paul is actually a good trainer, despite his methods not being the best. I'm glad we didn't get a goody two shoes closure for him.
  4. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Well Chimchar did seem to get over it's emotional scarring halfway into DP. Likewise Paul was never shown to be overly cruel to the rest of his Pokemon. At Reggie's house they all seemed very happy and well cared for. Any Pokemon that were weak were released kinder than Chimchar like those Starly or Azumarrill he had at the start of DP.

    Its also obvious Paul subtly changed his ways toward the end even if it wasn't outright stated.
  5. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    Maybe because he didn't do anything wrong.

    Ash and Paul's rivalry was over a difference of opinion. If anyone was a baby, it was Ash. Most of the time he saw Paul, he felt the need to tell him how wrong he was, despite getting his *** handed to him on multiple occasions.

    In the end, Paul can do whatever he wants. There is no "right" way to being a Pokemon Trainer, despite the nonsense Ash keeps spouting. Should he continue he training methods, then props to him. Chimchar couldn't hack it, so it went crying to Ash when he couldn't perform to Paul's standards.
  6. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    Actually, I think we did get a goody-two-shoes closure from him. The writers randomly changed im into a nice person and that was it.

    Sorry, but I saw no character development at all from him. And in any case, I'll never forgive him for what he did to Chimchar.

    No? Abusing Chimchar and then abandoning it wasn't wrong? Pokemon have feelings too, you know.

    And being an arrogant jerk to everyone you meet isn't wrong?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2011
  7. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    The way Paul trains was no different than what Ash does. He orders attack on each other and tells them to dodge or counterattack. Paul didn't cut them any slack when they got lazy about it.

    Chimchar wanted to be trained like that, but then he realized he couldn't cut it. In my opinion, it was just lazy. Paul's more powerful Pokemon like Torterra and Honchkrow went through the same thing. And they turned out stronger than any average Pokemon.

    And him being a jerk is your opinion of him. Others may see him as just being a tough Trainer. He is essentially the equivalent of a drill sergeant. He is your general, not your friend. My guess is that he views Pokemon as troops that choose to follow him. Ash is more along the lines of someone who wants to be their friend. He doesn't care how strong they, as long as they like him. Paul on the other hand doesn't care if his Pokemon like him or not, under his training, they all realize that they have a goal to reach, and slacking off isn't going to get them to those means. Chimchar couldn't handle it, so it went crying to Ash.

    To earn Paul's respect, you have to show that you are strong. The guy recognizes strength and respects that. People with high honors like Gym Leaders, Elite 4 members, Frontier Brains, and Champions have his undivided respect. As opposed to Ash, someone he views as weak, he doesn't have any respect for or has very little for him.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  8. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    The part about him having respect for people like Cynthia sounds like an Informed Ability to me. If he respected her so much, how come he didn't even give her the time of the day when she told him to be more caring towards his Pokemon?
  9. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    Because he never questioned his style. He respects that she is strong, he doesn't ahve to listen to her own personal opinions. There is no single way to becoming a Pokemon Champion or Master.

    Not once did Paul ever think "Hey, maybe I'm going about this all wrong". He firmly believes that what he does is right. And he was right to do so. Ash constantly telling him that he was wrong was not only amateurish but really showed his narrow-mindedness as a Trainer. Cynthia was merely injected her opinion, while Ash tried to portray himself as the end all be all of Pokemon Trainer experts.
  10. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member


    Fine, whatever you say. I don't agree, and I'm not going to change my opinion of Paul though.
  11. TheNewGuy

    TheNewGuy Well-Known Member

    Paul's style is not fundamentally wrong. The lesson was always Ash learning from Paul, and Paul learning from Ash - getting stronger as trainers together by fighting each other all the time. When they realised that, they developed that "friendship" Cynthia was talking about.

    I know it's lame but that's how it is. Gary used to do something very similar - he caught loads of Pokemon too which earned Ash's ire, but Oak said that different trainers have different styles and that each one is OK. Paul was harsher than Gary, but showed significant character development throughout the arc. He stopped being a total jerk around the time of the full battle, and had some respect, even kind words, for Ash in Infernape's evolution episode and when they met at the league.

    They met in the league as equals. Ash was a stronger trainer because of Paul, Paul was a stronger trainer because of Ash - but Paul had also grown to have a little more respect for his Pokemon. Notice how he did not, once, criticise his Pokemon after they were knocked out. He used to do that all the time, but not anymore. He even praised his Electivire!

    Paul didn't get "punished" for his attitude because he grew out of it and developed as a character. It's subtle, but it's clearly there if you look at it. Such subtlety is what made the rivalry such a great one, seeing Paul develop like that, and I want more of it.

    I think this is harsh - Paul was incredibly cruel. He definitely earned Ash's disgust.

    Paul went OTT with Chimchar. I doubt Torterra and Honchkrow have had to deal with 4 of its teammates attacking it at once just to activate its ability. Besides which, it is clear that Pokemon are different just like people are. If you run a business, or captain a sports team, or whatever, you will see that some people are motivated by being told they are bad at what they're doing. Some people, however, are motivated more by praise.

    See above, and please be kinder to a Pokemon responsible for the single most well-written arc of the entire anime. Nothing in the previous 650 episodes can match the Chimchar story, how it was presented, and its denouement. Nothing.
  12. Sapphire Kirby

    Sapphire Kirby Evaluation time!

    Wow, Paul seems to have quite the Draco in Leather Pants status here.

    I personally do believe the writters could have done better with Paul's character developement, but they were crunched for time, just like the rest of the Sinnoh League. I'm also kinda iffy that Paul ignores his Chimchar and gives up in the middle of a friendship tournament on live TV and no one seems to care. You'd think he'd get a talking to by the referee or someone. He might of learned his lesson in the end, but he should of at least appoligized to Chimmy.
  13. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    I still would like to see any mention of Paul's "cruelty". Keep in mind that this is a show intended for kids, so showing outright abuse or cruelty is definitely a red flag. And besides, "abuse" is what A.J. was doing to his Pokemon. He himself physically assaulted his Pokemon. What people try to define as cruel is just Paul being a strict trainer. He doesn't take any crap form his Pokemon and refuses to let them slack off. If he sees a weak link, it is expendable. He doesn't have time for his Pokemon not being focused and getting left behind.

    Most of Ash's "disgust" was seeing something fundamentally different than what he knows. Most Trainers he encounters are like him. Being always nice to your Pokemon, treating them as your friends. Then Paul's comes along and is pretty much like "My Pokemon aren't my friends, they are my means to becoming a Pokemon Master". Ash's disgust is most likely him not being used to seeing Pokemon not being trained by conventional means mostly him being "How dare he not treat his Pokemon the same way I do".

    And Paul didn't mention that he went over the top. He said Chimchar WANTED that kind of training. Paul didn't force it to, nor did he beat it into submission for it to agree. It saw how Paul's other Pokemon got stronger and wanted the same treatment, only for it to realized that it wasn't up to snuff to keep up with the rest of them. It's the equivalent of it realizing that he was in over his head and being left behind. He wanted the training and quit when it couldn't perform. That's why Paul views it as weak.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  14. Sapphire Kirby

    Sapphire Kirby Evaluation time!

    I'm confused. Are you saying Chimchar forced Paul to be mean to it and push it to levels of exhaustion? That Paul is not at any fault for what happened to Chimmy at all? I'm not trying to disagree with you, I'm just having trouble seeing that view point.

    They way I see things is that both Paul and Chimchar are at fault here. After seeing Chimchar take out those two Zangoose, Paul wanted to have him on his team so they can both get stronger together, and used the strict training method he uses with his other Pokemon on Chimchar. But despite all his efforts, Chimchar can't replicate that power from before, so Paul keeps on pushing Chimchar and making Chimchar indure tougher training. Chimchar accepts this training style, believing it is the only way for it to become stronger. As a result, Chimchar underwent physical and mental abuse from Paul, both believing this is the only way for Chimmy to improve. Paul thought that Chimchar could never improve despite all there hard work so he quit on Chimchar.

    We see from Ash's training that Chimchar is a strong Pokemon, and was totally dedicated to Paul, sticking up for him when others saw how overworked he was. Just like how the show sometimes talks about different Pokemon have different battle styles, Pokemon also have different styles of training. Chimchar just need a different way to train is all.

    As for how Paul is cruel, I'd like to point out that all their training had an adverse affect on Chimchar's brain. Chimmy had nightmares about Paul's training and couldn't react to normal situations. It was confused at being fed and cried at being complemented. It thought Ash was going to berate it when it loss to Piplup in that practice battle.

    I would have liked it if Paul verbally appoligized to Infernape after the Sinnoh League for all the pain it had to go through during their training, stating that he now realizes that there is more than one way to get strong. While we know that Paul has changed for the better, I'd still be nice see the results on screen.
  15. (P.O.K.E.M.O.N)

    (P.O.K.E.M.O.N) AshXSerena = Canon

    why dont you just shut up!!

    your point of views are so frustrating and you seem to hate nerds by your sig but you are most likely one your self

    and why do you think chimchar was a total wimp? paul abused him and look how strong he became with love and care
  16. KibaLG8

    KibaLG8 Well-Known Member

    What the fuck? Paul never abused Chimchar. o__0 I've never seen Paul Chris Brown Chimchar before, so he never abused it! Paul had high standards... Chimchar couldn't keep up unlike his former allies. Wait isn't Paul's methods almost the same way competitive battling is? If the Pokemon is weak and its stats aren't to your liking, it won't be used in the Wi-Fi match?
  17. Xyllerion

    Xyllerion I like bacon!

    Paul is stupid. Although he's the only real rival of Ash I like. He substituted a supposed to be OU pokemon(Infernape) with a useless NU pokemon(Magmortar).
    The real reason Magmortar stayed longer is because the makers wanted to. Infernape outclasses Magmortar.
  18. pokeaussie37

    pokeaussie37 Well-Known Member

    Tiers have no significance in the anime, so don't pull that rubbish out. Just because we humans deem it as NU doesn't mean that Magmortar is actually weak in the anime.

    I think Paul was a great character, a great anti-Ash. There are no rules to say he couldn't train his Pokemon that way. Abuse and cruelty are certainly no go zones, but Paul merely trained his Pokemon hard, didn't care about his relationship with his Pokemon, they were mercenaries to him.

    I don't agree with his style, but there's no denying that Paul was an effective trainer with very strong Pokemon.
  19. d4rk_tailed

    d4rk_tailed Doritoes,Leaf Storm!

    You cannot sincerely admonish sh*tstirring if you sometimes do it yourself.

    Haha. I actually laughed at that one. OK, fair play, but like others said, I doubt Torterra or the others got set upon by the rest of the team.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  20. poizonsting

    poizonsting Pokemon master

    Paul's story was wrapped up just fine. I see nothing wrong with Paul's training method as well. Ash and Chimchar actually deserved the attitude Paul gave to them to not warrant any sort of punishment for that said attitude.

    To start things off, Paul was a strict trainer, a trainer to whom Pokemon means business, not some creatures to goof around or building friendships with. Ever experienced military training? I see a resemblance of Paul to that of a drill sergeant (damn, ninja'd by deathseer), where Paul expected tasks accomplished by his troops under his command. There was virtually no room to slack off. The Pokemon that fit in Paul's training method prevailed, the rest had no place in Paul's roster. Chimchar didn't fit the bill, in other words, it was just a crybaby and couldn't handle Paul's training method. Why couldn't it just activate blaze when Paul asked to? If you want a place in Paul's team, you gotta earn it. Chimchar failed to do that. Instead it resorted to a worry-free abode under Ash's hood.

    Secondly, Ash deserved to be treated the way he was treated by Paul. Ash was just a stubborn ass whose only motive after encountering Paul for the first time was to prove that Paul was wrong in his training method, despite getting his butt handed to him by Paul in consequent battles. Ash did prove him wrong, but that moment didn't highlight until the league battle, did it? If Paul was happy with his training method, I don't see how it's any of Ash's business to barge his nose in to tell him otherwise. Oh wait, it was Ash who wants to be friends with every Pokemon he encounters, rather than training them well to either win a major tournament or to reward us with some impressive battles. Mind you, I'm not saying that Ash hasn't given us any impressive battles to watch, but the count could have been more.

    Lastly, there is no difference between Ash's method of training Pokemon and Paul's method of training method, though, the difference could be subtle. Paul's method was pretty much outright to us. Recall that in the league battle when Infernape crashed to the ground, despite Infernape being in pain, Ash commanded it to hang on to activate blaze, so to speak. Normally in situations like this Ash would not proceed further in a given battle, but this one can be seen as an exception. This is not any different than how Paul tried to activate Chimchar's blaze.

    I also sort of visualized that Paul would just walk away after getting defeated by Ash in the league. Like you know how Paul shows respects to stronger trainers, if defeated by them, admits the defeat and move on. It would have been more fitting to his character if he said something along the line of "You were lucky", then walked away with dignity with the pride in mind that he's still the better trainer than Ash. However, giving props to his Pokemon - especially Electivire even after losing to Infernape - and acknowledging Infernape's obvious improvment and its strength after losing to Ash weren't half bad either.

    To each their own. While Chimchar/Infernape's story was well written, I don't think it was the "single most well-writter arc of the entier series"

    ...in my opinion (don't wanna get flamed for not stating the obvious).
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