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Pocket Monsters (2019) Pokémon Speculation Thread

nickdt

Well-Known Member
I see what your going for... but the fact of the matter is Base Goku is an entirely different level of power from any one of his transformations. If someone beats him in base, it's not all to impressive as he's got more levels of power in reserve. If some beats him out of, let's say Super Saiyan Blue... Base Goku is F'd because he can't contend at that level.

That's what Nickt is trying to express here. Greninja, as a whole, is powerful sure, but it's only his Ash-Greninja form that reaches that level of power. If Greninja is losing, he can transform... if Ash-Greninja is losing, welp that's it for him.

TL;DR
Base Greninja isn't at the level Ash-Greninja is

Based on feats, Base Greninja isn't on the level Talonflame is either (And this is actually a proven fact by comparing both feats as well lol). Still people try to argue against facts is whats funny to me.
 

Morax

Natural perm
I see what your going for... but the fact of the matter is Base Goku is an entirely different level of power from any one of his transformations. If someone beats him in base, it's not all to impressive as he's got more levels of power in reserve. If some beats him out of, let's say Super Saiyan Blue... Base Goku is F'd because he can't contend at that level.

That's what Nickt is trying to express here. Greninja, as a whole, is powerful sure, but it's only his Ash-Greninja form that reaches that level of power. If Greninja is losing, he can transform... if Ash-Greninja is losing, welp that's it for him.

TL;DR
Base Greninja isn't at the level Ash-Greninja is
The point is that the transformation is about unleashing your strength. Not going super saiyan/Ash-greninja is the equivalent of drawing blindfolded. You're essentially handicapping them.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
People who believe that Base Greninja is weaker than Talonflame are indirectly saying that Leon's base Charizard is even weaker than Noivern.

But Base Greninja is weaker than Talonflame. This is a proven by the feats of both of them. Im tired of people arguing against PROVEN FACTS BASED ON FEATS.
 

Power Up

There's light at the end of the tunnel
Based on the above discussions... people actually think Greninja can pull off the Ash-Greninja feats in base.
No, the problem people have is not with the idea that Greninja is stronger as AG than in base, but that somehow his Battle Bond ability doesn't count or is somehow not inherent to his character and just can be removed...

It's like sure, Greninja is weaker in his base form, but that doesn't really mean anything as he has a battle bond ability/form.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
This. A lot of people think Ash-greninja is the equivalent of doping or using drugs to boost your strength which is utter nonsense.

I mean, it kinda is using doping or drugs (Same with Mega's, Dynamax/Gigamax and Z-Moves tbh), since the regular/base form can't achieve such feats, so it needs a power-buff/enhancher to do it for them. You can say the same thing about items or abilities that enhance power of a certain Pokemon (And yes, same applies for Gale Wings Talonflame in gen 6)

However, saying that base Greninja is stronger than Talonflame is also utter nonsense, since feats have already disproven this and have factually proven Talonflame is stronger than the base form.
 

Morax

Natural perm
I mean, it kinda is using doping or drugs (Same with Mega's, Dynamax/Gigamax and Z-Moves tbh), since the regular/base form can't achieve such feats, so it needs a power-buff/enhancher to do it for them. You can say the same thing about items or abilities that enhance power of a certain Pokemon.
You need to rewatch XY cuz they explicitly told us that AG was a result of Ash and Greninja's bond and helped unlock his true potential. It's not the same as mega evolution, dynamax/gmax and z moves.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
You need to rewatch XY cuz they explicitly told us that AG was a result of Ash and Greninja's bond and helped unlock his true potential. It's not the same as mega evolution, dynamax/gmax and z moves.
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.

Yeah, thats was utter BS writing as well (Same with Lillie and Sophocles using it).
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
This. A lot of people think Ash-greninja is the equivalent of doping or using drugs to boost your performance which is utter nonsense.

Here's the problem i've always had with Ash-Greninja, since the writers couldn't swallow their pride and allow ash to get a real mega, they decide to enter fanfiction territory and give Greninja a transformation that supposedly is to be on par with it.

the problem is they went to far, and it overshadowed the fact Ash finally got a fully evolved water starter, making it seem like an afterthought for one thing, but then they had to make it crutch based, making one wonder just how powerful Greninja is without it.

You need to rewatch XY cuz they explicitly told us that AG was a result of Ash and Greninja's bond and helped unlock his true potential. It's not the same as mega evolution, dynamax/gmax and z moves.

When power becomes a crutch that you have to rely on to be powerful and not an extension of your abilities, that's not a good thing.

Greninja hardly got the chance to prove itself as a Greninja, almost every fight it was involved in after becoming one had it's transformation triggered, and the one time Ash tried to force the transformation it backfired and he lost, so how can we truly discern how powerful it really is?

at least with pokemon going mega, that's an extension of their already established strength which with one exception, (the nurse joy's audino since i know someone's bound to bring it up) still showed they could still be strong even without going mega, with AG that was not the case.

Even Infernape was able to bash things into paste without going into it's psycho kaio-ken blaze.

If Greninja comes back, it needs to fight more without relying on that form, to prove that it can be strong on it's natural merits, and thus allow it's transformation to become an extension to be used if necessary, not a crutch it needs in order to fight at all.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Best girl Dawn, Infernape/Ash/Paul, Alolan fam <3
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.
She had a z ring, a z crystal, and had formed a bond with her Mon. The only requirements for using a Z move and she met them. Wtf is this argument and why do you people always deflect criticisms in the most dumbest of ways lmao
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
She had a z ring, a z crystal, and had formed a bond with her Mon. The only requirements for using a Z move and she met them. Wtf is this argument and why do you people always deflect criticisms in the most dumbest of ways lmao
The problem is that these r the requirrmements and that any loser can get it
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
If Greninja comes back, it needs to fight more without relying on that form, to prove that it can be strong on it's natural merits, and thus allow it's transformation to become an extension to be used if necessary, not a crutch it needs in order to fight at all.

And the moment this happens, then and only then, i will acknowledge base Greninja to be more powerful than Talonflame, since it currently isn't.
 

ChampioN One

Musicart!
But Base Greninja is weaker than Talonflame. This is a proven by the feats of both of them. Im tired of people arguing against PROVEN FACTS BASED ON FEATS.
Just because it has been in more number of battles does not mean that it's stronger than Base Greninja. Also the fact that as soon as It evolved into Greninja, it transformed into Ash Greninja in almost every battle, base Greninja does not have any battles in the first place.

All Talonflame did was to take out the first mon of a gym leader that's it. Beating smallfries does not mean it's stronger than Greninja.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Best girl Dawn, Infernape/Ash/Paul, Alolan fam <3
The problem is that these r the requirrmements and that any loser can get it
It follows the game lore tho? How the hell is mallow a loser? She runs a successful restaurant and is very good at cooking plus is empathetic and has helped other people and mons. Just because she's not a battler? By that logic Serena is the biggest loser of them all for never even completing a battle lmao
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.

well Z-moves are mostly one shot attacks that have been shown to be endurable, countered or dodged, but I do understand the arguement.

the one thing that still bothers me about Z-moves is Kiawe's Black and white morality of them not coming up when TR showed they had access to them, you'd think after his speech to Ash and getting in his face that seeing people like TR who contradict the speech he made to Ash with would've sent him into rage mode.
 

Joltik-Kid

Simply Fantastic ಠ_ಠ
Ash-Greninja being inherent to Greninja is established. There's no question they're the same being, its Greninja's true strength brought forth.
However, Ash-Greninja's battle prowess are not Greninja's. One of them heavily outclasses the other entirely based on what opponents they can face.
Greninja < Talonflame can be a fact
Just as Ash-Greninja > Talonflame is a proven fact
Based on feats, Base Greninja isn't on the level Talonflame is either (And this is actually a proven fact by comparing both feats as well lol). Still people try to argue against facts is whats funny to me.
I'm stuck in between because I know exactly what both sides are saying.
 
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