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Pocket Monsters (2019) Pokémon Speculation Thread

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Just because it has been in more number of battles does not mean that it's stronger than Base Greninja. Also the fact that as soon as It evolved into Greninja, it transformed into Ash Greninja in almost every battle, base Greninja does not have any battles in the first place.

All Talonflame did was to take out the first mon of a gym leader that's it. Beating smallfries does not mean it's stronger than Greninja.

When did i ever say number of battles?

All Talonflame did was to take out the first mon of a gym leader and thats it (LOOOLLLLL)

It literally tanked a Fire Blast from a Talonflame as a Fletchling, literally evolving to beat it. It tanked a Fire Blast from a Legendary and brought a hit in against said legendary(When has Greninja ever done those 2 things). It literally provided Ash to think of strategy to get rid of Spritzees Trick Room, it literally carried Ash and Frogadier through the match with Olympia (Without Talonflame, they would have lost), it brought a hit in against a Mega as a Fletchinder (When did Frogadier ever bring in a hit against Mega) and it never got down in a gym match without taking down another mon (Except for one) and never went down in the league without take a mon with it.

Then base Greninja's feats
Beating 2 of Ramos's mons (One of which was weakened) and defeating an already weakened Bisharp. Thats literally all the feats of base Greninja.

Looking at the entire line, its fact that Talonflame is way stronger than base Greninja (Talonflame doesn't need power-buffs to hit legendaries or Mega's, unlike Greninja).

Power wise: Base Greninja > Talonflame (On sheer feats alone, and this is a proven fact) > Ash-Greninja (Since i doubt both Base Greninja and Talonflame can currently defeat Mega's in base form, hitting them is a different matter)
 

Power Up

There's light at the end of the tunnel
Here's the problem i've always had with Ash-Greninja, since the writers couldn't swallow their pride and allow ash to get a real mega, they decide to enter fanfiction territory and give Greninja a transformation that supposedly is to be on par with it.
Are you inside the minds of the writers? Yes surely, AG was just a matter of the writers being unable to swallow their pride. That's what they were thinking when they came up with it.

I don't why this matters, but okay.
the problem is they went to far, and it overshadowed the fact Ash finally got a fully evolved water starter, making it seem like an afterthought for one thing, but then they had to make it crutch based, making one wonder just how powerful Greninja is without it.
Good thing that the Battle Bond ability is inherent to Greninja and isn't removable. I don't know how one can say they made it an afterthought when they literally focused on it even more with AG as the Battle Bond ability is literally a Greninja ability. AG didn't just blink into existence. This isn't how it works.
When power becomes a crutch that you have to rely on to be powerful and not an extension of your abilities, that's not a good thing.
Yeah, the Goku comparison is apt here. Or insert any other character that has power-ups similar is " different " from how they originally were.

Greninja hardly got the chance to prove itself as a Greninja, almost every fight it was involved in after becoming one had it's transformation triggered, and the one time Ash tried to force the transformation it backfired and he lost, so how can we truly discern how powerful it really is?
AG's ability was formed through hardship, training, and struggling. It proved itself along with Ash through his Battle Bond form.
If Greninja comes back, it needs to fight more without relying on that form, to prove that it can be strong on it's natural merits, and thus allow it's transformation to become an extension to be used if necessary, not a crutch it needs in order to fight at all.
Hopefully it won't, since its form is literally part of its natural merits and its transformation is inherent to its character.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Good thing that the Battle Bond ability is inherent to Greninja and isn't removable. I don't know how one can say they made it an afterthought when they literally focused on it even more with AG as the Battle Bond ability is literally a Greninja ability. AG didn't just blink into existence. This isn't how it works.

Well.. technically, it is removable. If Gamefreak decides not to put Mega's in a game, but they do include Greninja, obviously, they ain't gonna include Battle Bond either.

Not to speak about Ash-Greninja being conceived by the anime and not the games in the first place, so technically, Greninja does officially not even have Battle Bond in the gen six games.
 

Power Up

There's light at the end of the tunnel
Well.. technically, it is removable. If Gamefreak decides not to put Mega's in a game, but they do include Greninja, obviously, they ain't gonna include Battle Bond either.

Not to speak about Ash-Greninja being conceived by the anime and not the games in the first place, so technically, Greninja does officially not even have Battle Bond in the gen six games.
Yes, obviously I was talking about the games when I said it was removable. These " technicalities " you've conjured up are literally scenarios that don't exist and don't even change my argument.

Don't know why you brought the games up. Don't know how they're relevant.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Are you inside the minds of the writers? Yes surely, AG was just a matter of the writers being unable to swallow their pride. That's what they were thinking when they came up with it.

I don't why this matters, but okay.

It's obvious that Ash was going to be battling mega's more often at some point, thus he would need something of equal power to fight back, but because Greninja was so popular they couldn't risk overshadowing it by say letting Ash's Charizard or Sceptile (had Sawyer not been created) come back and do it for him and not have to go into fanfiction territory, and give Greninja the mode change.
Yeah, the Goku comparison is apt here. Or insert any other character that has power-ups similar is " different " from how they originally were.

That's basically saying that Goku would have to rely on someone like say Gohan to maintain his super sayian form whenever he needed it.

not a good comparison, and Goku was shown to be a strong fighter on earth long before the events of Z came around anyway, not to mention he evolved his super sayian form over time too.
Don't know why you brought the games up. Don't know how they're relevant.

maybe because people don't like it when the anime takes liberties that you can't do in the games, and Ash-Greninja was one the biggest ones.
 

Power Up

There's light at the end of the tunnel
It's obvious that Ash was going to be battling mega's more often at some point, thus he would need something of equal power to fight back, but because Greninja was so popular they couldn't risk overshadowing it by say letting Ash's Charizard or Sceptile (had Sawyer not been created) come back and do it for him and not have to go into fanfiction territory, and give Greninja the mode change.
Sorry dude, but I'm not going to take part in this mental exercise in assuming what the writers what they wanted to do if I don't have interviews lol. I understand that you want to create a perfect image of a strawmen of the writers to suit a narrative, but assuming the writer's intent, especially with the pokemon anime, has to be one of the dumbest ideas proven over time and time again.

Not to mention it literally doesn't matter.
That's basically saying that Goku would have to rely on someone like say Gohan to maintain his super sayian form whenever he needed it.

not a good comparison, and Goku was shown to be a strong fighter on earth long before the events of Z came around anyway, not to mention he evolved his super sayian form over time too.
...Uh and AG evolved his form over time as well?
maybe because people don't like it when the anime takes liberties that you can't do in the games, and Ash-Greninja was one the biggest ones.
Good thing the anime literally has zero obligation to stay fully true to the games, has never done so, will continue to never do so, and is not inherently worse for not doing so.
 
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Power Up

There's light at the end of the tunnel
Except he didn't, since we didn't see base Greninja battle (We only saw Froakie and Frogadier battle).
Ah yes, the imperfect veiled Grenina didn't exist. Nothing happened between episodes 100 and 121. I guess you really do believe AG just blinked into existence?
 

Joltik-Kid

Meh ಠ_ಠ
Mega Evolution has taken the nerf button after XY... any base Pokemon can beat a Mega these days if its strong enough. Kakui's Incineroar one shot Mega Aggron with its Signature Z-Move, a Dark type move. Guzma did one better by just outright beating Mega Kangaskhan with his Scizor through strategy.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Except he didn't, since we didn't see base Greninja battle (We only saw Froakie and Frogadier battle).
Base Grenjnja defeated a Scizor and Bisharp, don't equate gym battles to only considered battles.

Plus base Greninja managed to hit Diantha's Gardevoir, a result of strategy/tactics as it was otherwise doing nothing, showing that tactics/strategy also plays an important role.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Base Grenjnja defeated a Scizor and Bisharp, don't equate gym battles to only considered battles.

Plus base Greninja managed to hit Diantha's Gardevoir, a result of strategy/tactics as it was otherwise doing nothing, showing that tactics/strategy also plays an important role.

Base Greninja managed to hit Diantha's Gardevoir.

Oh.. what a feat. Fletchinder managed to hit a Mega. Is more impressive in my book, since its a NFE.

You mean the same Bisharp that was weakened by Goodra and Hawlucha beforehand.... pfah, so impressive.

I only give you Scizor.
 

Joltik-Kid

Meh ಠ_ಠ
Plus base Greninja managed to hit Diantha's Gardevoir, a result of strategy/tactics as it was otherwise doing nothing, showing that tactics/strategy also plays an important role.
As I was saying earlier... that particular feat looks like a massive outlier seeing where the series went afterwards. Greninja never came close to displaying that power again unless we all think Alain, Lysandre, and Malva are more powerful than Diantha
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Base Greninja managed to hit Diantha's Gardevoir.

Oh.. what a feat. Fletchinder managed to hit a Mega. Is more impressive in my book, since its a NFE.

You mean the same Bisharp that was weakened by Goodra and Hawlucha beforehand.... pfah, so impressive.

I only give you Scizor.

How the hell is Fletchinder's resisted push back against Mega Lucario which was destroyed by Alain's Charizard later, more impressive than Diantha recognizing the strategy Ash used to hit her Gardevoir......Champion vs Gym Leader......what could be more impressive?

As I was saying earlier... that particular feat looks like a massive outlier seeing where the series went afterwards. Greninja never came close to displaying that power again unless we all think Alain, Lysandre, and Malva are more powerful than Diantha

If Ash is stupid and not using Greninja properly than yes the others are stronger than Diantha.

We know Ash's major strength is being pushed into a corner, if Ash is too caught up in being in sync with Ash-Greninja I can see how instinct might prevail over strategy and do worse but better because of boosted strength.

Ash vs Diantha is definately an outlier since even in later battles he never displayed such order with the battle, Ash was on a mission, other battles felt more lax except maybe Wulfric.
 
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nickdt

Well-Known Member
How the hell is Fletchinder's resisted push back against Mega Lucario which was destroyed by Alain's Charizard later, more impressive than Diantha recognizing the strategy Ash used to hit her Gardevoir......Champion vs Gym Leader......what could be more impressive?

NFE vs FE. Whats more impressive (NFE in my book).
 

kickachu

Momentai!
question what does project mew want with mew you think they might be the hidden main antagonist
 

Joltik-Kid

Meh ಠ_ಠ
Amazing how Infernape has sparked the Greninja debates again ... Can't wait for the Charizard v Pikachu for Ash's strongest
 
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