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Pocket Monsters (2019) Speculation Thread

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Decidueye23

Well-Known Member
Despite being the underdog he works hard to overcome stuff and help the mons.
Are we watching the same show? When was he ever the underdog lmao

Even in the gary episode he was potrayed to be a bit insecure. Not an underdog. Infact he directly got an invitation to Project Mew from oak. And to add to that, we havent really seen him put in any effort with respect to his pokemon interms of battling either.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
How about a supporting role instead? As a Champion he fits that role. And a Pichu with the new main character

Thats the only way i can see a new protag being a thing. Ash in a mentor role. Then they can do new protags every 2 series. This way, they can keep both Ash and Team Rocket.
 

Decidueye23

Well-Known Member
I mean speak for yourself for the flygon episode lol, I really love that ep and my main issue with Ashs depression was its pacing with episode placement not how it was handled with Goh snapping him out of it. Even in those episodes where he does major things he still shows some self doubt before conquering it, I like those moments, which is what my post was pointing out

I literally already said what I meant by the underdog comment. In the Gary episode he was both insecure and an underdog and he got an invitation from Professor Oak BECAUSE he caught Suicune and he knows Goh's goal, Goh earned the right to challenge trial missions himself in ep71. Thats like saying Ash got things handed to him because Scott invited him to challenge the battle frontier
His strategy with Raboot to take out Flygon was still thrilling for me to watch, he put effort in his strategies for me enough for me to enjoy it and like it
Yeah But Ash stopped being the underdog ever since Johto. And if you really want to compare, Ash trained his mon's and participated in countless battles before getting an invite fornthe battle frontier. Goh was handed a suicuine 50 episodes into his debut, with barely any effort, which then lead him to get a project mew invite. So thats definetly not how underdogs are treated. And besides, he used stratergy one time!

Please explain to me how was he an underdog in the gary episode. He got invited to the Project Mew team by oak. Gary throws some shade at him. Then they battle moltres, where there is literally nothing that shows that Goh actually feels like he needs to work harder even though cinderace, arguably his most trained mon can barely even put up a fight against a fire type legendary.
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
I literally already said what I meant by the underdog comment. In the Gary episode he was both insecure and an underdog and he got an invitation from Professor Oak BECAUSE he caught Suicune and he knows Goh's goal, Goh earned the right to challenge trial missions himself in ep71. Thats like saying Ash got things handed to him because Scott invited him to challenge the battle frontier
I don't know the context in this comment chain, but Goh definitely didn't 'earn' Suicune.
 

AxelJade

Well-Known Member
I mean speak for yourself for the flygon episode lol, I really love that ep and my main issue with Ashs depression was its pacing with episode placement not how it was handled with Goh snapping him out of it. Even in those episodes where he does major things he still shows some self doubt before conquering it, I like those moments, which is what my post was pointing out

I literally already said what I meant by the underdog comment. In the Gary episode he was both insecure and an underdog and he got an invitation from Professor Oak BECAUSE he caught Suicune and he knows Goh's goal, Goh earned the right to challenge trial missions himself in ep71. Thats like saying Ash got things handed to him because Scott invited him to challenge the battle frontier
His strategy with Raboot to take out Flygon was still thrilling for me to watch, he put effort in his strategies for me enough for me to enjoy it and like it
My issue with the Flygon episode is that Ash got depressed at all.

Okay. Ash got depressed after losing to Ritchie in the Indigo League. It was his first League, he promised Ritchie a great battle... And he got led astray by Team Rocket, two of his key Pokémon were tired out by Team Rocket, and his only hope of winning was the disobedient Charizard that cost him the match in the end. But after a Pikachu Thunderbolt and seeing how Ritchie took his own loss, Ash bounced back to his old self no problem. That makes sense for his character.

In Diamond and Pearl, Ash got depressed after losing to Paul at Lake Acuity. Since Paul is Ash's polar opposite, their battle was also one of dueling philosophies. Losing to Paul made Ash question his whole world view. But all it took was Ash's Pokémon acting happy and goofy, despite their injuries, for Ash to realize how stupid he was being for sulking. That also makes sense for his character.

In XY&Z, Ash gets depressed when losing to Wulfric. Wulfric was just another Gym Leader. He's lost to Gym Leaders before. A lot. He always picks himself back up immediately and starts training for the rematch. But in this case, he walked off into the woods alone instead. Without his Pokémon, without training or opening the chance for his team to cheer him up. So... Serena needs to yell at him to stop being stupid? And THAT works? And the only one out of Ash's team that showed any sort of concern for Ash was Pikachu? That's not Pokémon! That's not Ash! And those aren't his Pokémon!

I feel the same way about the Flygon episode too. Ash didn't know that Bea would be a recurring rival, and he's lost plenty of battles before. Maybe a full-on losing streak is new for Ash, sure. But I don't see how losing to random Trainers he's never met before, has no personal investment in, and (as far as he knows at the time) will never see again is enough to warrant a full-on depression. I don't know why Ash's Pokémon didn't seem to express any interest in cheering Ash up (Ash's Dragonite can probably cure cancer with those hugs, it's so cute and sweet). I don't see why Ash needed Goh to be the one to snap him out of it. And I don't see why the same genius who invented Thunder Armor and Counter-Shield would keep using the same failing strategies over and over again when training to counter grappling Pokémon when he needs to formulate a counter strategy for a potential Bea rematch.

That's how I feel, anyway.
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
I'd also like to add about the whole Ash depression/Flygon. How did Goh suddenly become a competent enough battler to beat and catch Flygon, with a Raboot who barely battles? This also goes double for when he almost caught Zapdos
Because he's Goh, and he's supposed to become Ash's 'equal' despite being a novice trainer who doesn't really battle that much.
 

DigitalTrainer

Worried about everything
Why should I support someone who's basically a fanfiction Mary Sue? I've sat through 20 years of seeing Ash claw his way to success, fail constantly and then get much deserved accomplishments. Then they bring in this trainer prodigy who is just given all this special treatment: The other two Galar starters given to him, Eternatus, Suicune. Easily beating Flygon and Zapdos, easy Evolutions, and hogging a ton of screentime just so he can look good(The Absol episode). I mean really, was it always that easy?

If you ask me, he isn't simply just Catching them all, he's undermining the hard work of past characters. But you know what? I know it's not his fault, in end it's the writers fault for thinking was a good way to showcase a character.
 
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lolipiece

Pictured: what browsing Serebii does to a person
Staff member
Moderator
I'd also like to add about the whole Ash depression/Flygon. How did Goh suddenly become a competent enough battler to beat and catch Flygon, with a Raboot who barely battles? This also goes double for when he almost caught Zapdos
By being smart? By using a Pokemon known to be fairly quick and acrobatic? By literally using Flygon's own attack against it?
 

Jers745

I dont know :p
Ash didn't know that Bea would be a recurring rival, and he's lost plenty of battles before. Maybe a full-on losing streak is new for Ash, sure.
Well i must say it was a first for ash because he did come up with a crazy strategy in the first battle against bea and even then she still countered him which if i dont remember wrong has never happened. I dont think he was exactly deppresed, he was more kinda blocked in strategies he even had to use the aura to beat grapplockt that in itself (i think) says something
 

desdar300

Well-Known Member
This isn't aimed at me, but personally I just think that go is really inconsistent with his characterization.
Sometimes he's a bona fide rookie and others he's basically on the same level as Ash so it's kind of hard to gauge what exactly they want to do with him.
They can try to pull this Zacian and Zamazenta Two Heroes things with them all they want but I don't think they've really done enough to showcase that go isn't anything but an underling compared to his peer.
 

Decidueye23

Well-Known Member
Umm.. just to be clear, criticising a fictional character is criticising the writing and the writers. The fictional character is not real. So naturally when anyone says anything against a fictional character it is criticising the writing.

Also, whether you like Goh or Dont like him, you cannot pretend like he doesnt get special treatment.
 

Decidueye23

Well-Known Member
He literally was inferior to both Ash and Gary in that episode, having his skills questioned, being behind and then having to be saved in the moltres battle. He even says in the episode how Gary beat him this time and he was behind and needs to improve. He's MEANT to be an underdog in the episode, I don't care whether you view him as such or not, the anime made it clear he was one. Also Goh isnt around 1K+ episodes like Ash so I don't really care much for comparisons to him. If Oak recommending Goh because he caught Suicune is unfair so is Scott recommending Ash to challenge the BF. It literally means nothing and both of them accomplished the right to participate in them on their own. It's literally pointless whining to say Oak recommending him is plot armour or things working out his way. Also he's used strategy in almost every battle he has had, don't act like the Flygon was the only one.

My entire comment was that he earned the right to challenge trial missions by completing the A. Ninetales mission, making him eligible to compete in the trial missions. Oak recommended him coz he saw he caught Suicune. Whether he deserves Suicune or not is another matter (considering he bonded with it and earned its respect), it's everything in the Gary episode and project mew episode WASNT handed to him.
I did not compare Ash and Goh. I responded to the comparision you made. Are you telling me Goh getting Suicune in 50 episodes with no noticable development is equivalent to Ash actually developing across 100 episodes in hoenn. You made the comparision between BF and suicune. I am just saying that comparision doesnt work. What is fair and unfair is not even the argument. I am saying he is rarely shown to be an underdog. How can he be an underdog when clearly the writers want him to be an equal to Ash?. An underdog is someone who nobody thinks can make it and yet he achieves his goal through determination, hard work and a bit of luck. Someone who has very less means to achieve their goal but yet manage to do it.Except gary, prettty much everyone clearly thinks Goh can achieve his goal. Goh lacks the first two but clearly has the third one working for him. We barely see him put any effort into improving his pokemon. At this point the writers have no doubt tried to showcase him as an equal to Ash. And if Ash if you think Ash too is an underdog after literally defeating the champion of Unova, then i dont know what to say.

Also since we are talking about statergy, can anyone please mention what all statergies has Goh used till now. I am really curious. Because the only one that really comes to my mind is the flygon episode. But i dont remember all the episodes all too well.
 
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