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Pocket Monsters (2019) Speculation Thread

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Morax

King of heroes
I mean, it kinda is using doping or drugs (Same with Mega's, Dynamax/Gigamax and Z-Moves tbh), since the regular/base form can't achieve such feats, so it needs a power-buff/enhancher to do it for them. You can say the same thing about items or abilities that enhance power of a certain Pokemon.
You need to rewatch XY cuz they explicitly told us that AG was a result of Ash and Greninja's bond and helped unlock his true potential. It's not the same as mega evolution, dynamax/gmax and z moves.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
You need to rewatch XY cuz they explicitly told us that AG was a result of Ash and Greninja's bond and helped unlock his true potential. It's not the same as mega evolution, dynamax/gmax and z moves.
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.

Yeah, thats was utter BS writing as well (Same with Lillie and Sophocles using it).
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
No Tracey, eh? I guess anime-exclusive characters from previous series won't be shown... So no Max, Ritchie, Paul, Trip and Alain as well it seems...

But hey, since Infernape returned, I guess a Flint rematch is still possible..
Paul stands the most likely chance of returning given how significant he was in Ash's journey. Paul is still adventuring out there somewhere, I would like it if Ash meets the guy somewhere that Paul hasn't been yet like Kalos rather than 'Dododo, hey Sinnoh! Oh look Paul's here, hi Paul! :D"

Max, well if we don't get May he likely ain't showing(Nor should he if she doesn't. That'd just be insulting to us May fans....)
Trip, I try and be fair to the guy but unless he's facing Alder why does he need to return? At least Alain would wrap up Greninja's arc like it should have been
Ritchie, I like but.... he's literally just a reskin of Ash, Pokemon and all! He's not necessary and any battle against Ash would just be boring. Oh look a Pikachu, hey Ritchie has a green Barney! Ritchie works best in specials where he can be his own person instead of an Ash clone
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
This. A lot of people think Ash-greninja is the equivalent of doping or using drugs to boost your performance which is utter nonsense.

Here's the problem i've always had with Ash-Greninja, since the writers couldn't swallow their pride and allow ash to get a real mega, they decide to enter fanfiction territory and give Greninja a transformation that supposedly is to be on par with it.

the problem is they went to far, and it overshadowed the fact Ash finally got a fully evolved water starter, making it seem like an afterthought for one thing, but then they had to make it crutch based, making one wonder just how powerful Greninja is without it.

You need to rewatch XY cuz they explicitly told us that AG was a result of Ash and Greninja's bond and helped unlock his true potential. It's not the same as mega evolution, dynamax/gmax and z moves.

When power becomes a crutch that you have to rely on to be powerful and not an extension of your abilities, that's not a good thing.

Greninja hardly got the chance to prove itself as a Greninja, almost every fight it was involved in after becoming one had it's transformation triggered, and the one time Ash tried to force the transformation it backfired and he lost, so how can we truly discern how powerful it really is?

at least with pokemon going mega, that's an extension of their already established strength which with one exception, (the nurse joy's audino since i know someone's bound to bring it up) still showed they could still be strong even without going mega, with AG that was not the case.

Even Infernape was able to bash things into paste without going into it's psycho kaio-ken blaze.

If Greninja comes back, it needs to fight more without relying on that form, to prove that it can be strong on it's natural merits, and thus allow it's transformation to become an extension to be used if necessary, not a crutch it needs in order to fight at all.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
She had a z ring, a z crystal, and had formed a bond with her Mon. The only requirements for using a Z move and she met them. Wtf is this argument and why do you people always deflect criticisms in the most dumbest of ways lmao
The problem is that these r the requirrmements and that any loser can get it
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
If Greninja comes back, it needs to fight more without relying on that form, to prove that it can be strong on it's natural merits, and thus allow it's transformation to become an extension to be used if necessary, not a crutch it needs in order to fight at all.

And the moment this happens, then and only then, i will acknowledge base Greninja to be more powerful than Talonflame, since it currently isn't.
 

ChampioN One

The chosen One!
But Base Greninja is weaker than Talonflame. This is a proven by the feats of both of them. Im tired of people arguing against PROVEN FACTS BASED ON FEATS.
Just because it has been in more number of battles does not mean that it's stronger than Base Greninja. Also the fact that as soon as It evolved into Greninja, it transformed into Ash Greninja in almost every battle, base Greninja does not have any battles in the first place.

All Talonflame did was to take out the first mon of a gym leader that's it. Beating smallfries does not mean it's stronger than Greninja.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
If ppl want to complain about oower boosts they should complain about z moves. That even a girl that doesnt battle and her dream is to open a resturant, manages to use one.

well Z-moves are mostly one shot attacks that have been shown to be endurable, countered or dodged, but I do understand the arguement.

the one thing that still bothers me about Z-moves is Kiawe's Black and white morality of them not coming up when TR showed they had access to them, you'd think after his speech to Ash and getting in his face that seeing people like TR who contradict the speech he made to Ash with would've sent him into rage mode.
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
Ash-Greninja being inherent to Greninja is established. There's no question they're the same being, its Greninja's true strength brought forth.
However, Ash-Greninja's battle prowess are not Greninja's. One of them heavily outclasses the other entirely based on what opponents they can face.
Greninja < Talonflame can be a fact
Just as Ash-Greninja > Talonflame is a proven fact
Based on feats, Base Greninja isn't on the level Talonflame is either (And this is actually a proven fact by comparing both feats as well lol). Still people try to argue against facts is whats funny to me.
I'm stuck in between because I know exactly what both sides are saying.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Just because it has been in more number of battles does not mean that it's stronger than Base Greninja. Also the fact that as soon as It evolved into Greninja, it transformed into Ash Greninja in almost every battle, base Greninja does not have any battles in the first place.

All Talonflame did was to take out the first mon of a gym leader that's it. Beating smallfries does not mean it's stronger than Greninja.

When did i ever say number of battles?

All Talonflame did was to take out the first mon of a gym leader and thats it (LOOOLLLLL)

It literally tanked a Fire Blast from a Talonflame as a Fletchling, literally evolving to beat it. It tanked a Fire Blast from a Legendary and brought a hit in against said legendary(When has Greninja ever done those 2 things). It literally provided Ash to think of strategy to get rid of Spritzees Trick Room, it literally carried Ash and Frogadier through the match with Olympia (Without Talonflame, they would have lost), it brought a hit in against a Mega as a Fletchinder (When did Frogadier ever bring in a hit against Mega) and it never got down in a gym match without taking down another mon (Except for one) and never went down in the league without take a mon with it.

Then base Greninja's feats
Beating 2 of Ramos's mons (One of which was weakened) and defeating an already weakened Bisharp. Thats literally all the feats of base Greninja.

Looking at the entire line, its fact that Talonflame is way stronger than base Greninja (Talonflame doesn't need power-buffs to hit legendaries or Mega's, unlike Greninja).

Power wise: Base Greninja > Talonflame (On sheer feats alone, and this is a proven fact) > Ash-Greninja (Since i doubt both Base Greninja and Talonflame can currently defeat Mega's in base form, hitting them is a different matter)
 
Here's the problem i've always had with Ash-Greninja, since the writers couldn't swallow their pride and allow ash to get a real mega, they decide to enter fanfiction territory and give Greninja a transformation that supposedly is to be on par with it.
Are you inside the minds of the writers? Yes surely, AG was just a matter of the writers being unable to swallow their pride. That's what they were thinking when they came up with it.

I don't why this matters, but okay.
the problem is they went to far, and it overshadowed the fact Ash finally got a fully evolved water starter, making it seem like an afterthought for one thing, but then they had to make it crutch based, making one wonder just how powerful Greninja is without it.
Good thing that the Battle Bond ability is inherent to Greninja and isn't removable. I don't know how one can say they made it an afterthought when they literally focused on it even more with AG as the Battle Bond ability is literally a Greninja ability. AG didn't just blink into existence. This isn't how it works.
When power becomes a crutch that you have to rely on to be powerful and not an extension of your abilities, that's not a good thing.
Yeah, the Goku comparison is apt here. Or insert any other character that has power-ups similar is " different " from how they originally were.

Greninja hardly got the chance to prove itself as a Greninja, almost every fight it was involved in after becoming one had it's transformation triggered, and the one time Ash tried to force the transformation it backfired and he lost, so how can we truly discern how powerful it really is?
AG's ability was formed through hardship, training, and struggling. It proved itself along with Ash through his Battle Bond form.
If Greninja comes back, it needs to fight more without relying on that form, to prove that it can be strong on it's natural merits, and thus allow it's transformation to become an extension to be used if necessary, not a crutch it needs in order to fight at all.
Hopefully it won't, since its form is literally part of its natural merits and its transformation is inherent to its character.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Good thing that the Battle Bond ability is inherent to Greninja and isn't removable. I don't know how one can say they made it an afterthought when they literally focused on it even more with AG as the Battle Bond ability is literally a Greninja ability. AG didn't just blink into existence. This isn't how it works.

Well.. technically, it is removable. If Gamefreak decides not to put Mega's in a game, but they do include Greninja, obviously, they ain't gonna include Battle Bond either.

Not to speak about Ash-Greninja being conceived by the anime and not the games in the first place, so technically, Greninja does officially not even have Battle Bond in the gen six games.
 
Well.. technically, it is removable. If Gamefreak decides not to put Mega's in a game, but they do include Greninja, obviously, they ain't gonna include Battle Bond either.

Not to speak about Ash-Greninja being conceived by the anime and not the games in the first place, so technically, Greninja does officially not even have Battle Bond in the gen six games.
Yes, obviously I was talking about the games when I said it was removable. These " technicalities " you've conjured up are literally scenarios that don't exist and don't even change my argument.

Don't know why you brought the games up. Don't know how they're relevant.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Are you inside the minds of the writers? Yes surely, AG was just a matter of the writers being unable to swallow their pride. That's what they were thinking when they came up with it.

I don't why this matters, but okay.

It's obvious that Ash was going to be battling mega's more often at some point, thus he would need something of equal power to fight back, but because Greninja was so popular they couldn't risk overshadowing it by say letting Ash's Charizard or Sceptile (had Sawyer not been created) come back and do it for him and not have to go into fanfiction territory, and give Greninja the mode change.
Yeah, the Goku comparison is apt here. Or insert any other character that has power-ups similar is " different " from how they originally were.

That's basically saying that Goku would have to rely on someone like say Gohan to maintain his super sayian form whenever he needed it.

not a good comparison, and Goku was shown to be a strong fighter on earth long before the events of Z came around anyway, not to mention he evolved his super sayian form over time too.
Don't know why you brought the games up. Don't know how they're relevant.

maybe because people don't like it when the anime takes liberties that you can't do in the games, and Ash-Greninja was one the biggest ones.
 
It's obvious that Ash was going to be battling mega's more often at some point, thus he would need something of equal power to fight back, but because Greninja was so popular they couldn't risk overshadowing it by say letting Ash's Charizard or Sceptile (had Sawyer not been created) come back and do it for him and not have to go into fanfiction territory, and give Greninja the mode change.
Sorry dude, but I'm not going to take part in this mental exercise in assuming what the writers what they wanted to do if I don't have interviews lol. I understand that you want to create a perfect image of a strawmen of the writers to suit a narrative, but assuming the writer's intent, especially with the pokemon anime, has to be one of the dumbest ideas proven over time and time again.

Not to mention it literally doesn't matter.
That's basically saying that Goku would have to rely on someone like say Gohan to maintain his super sayian form whenever he needed it.

not a good comparison, and Goku was shown to be a strong fighter on earth long before the events of Z came around anyway, not to mention he evolved his super sayian form over time too.
...Uh and AG evolved his form over time as well?
maybe because people don't like it when the anime takes liberties that you can't do in the games, and Ash-Greninja was one the biggest ones.
Good thing the anime literally has zero obligation to stay fully true to the games, has never done so, will continue to never do so, and is not inherently worse for not doing so.
 
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