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Pocket Monsters (2023) Speculation Thread

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0cerge

Well-Known Member
ShadowForce720 said:
That still doesn’t change what I said. Your still basically defending Spinel is spreading a substance that hurts Pokémon and makes them go berserk and after repeated exposure to it destroys their bonds as battle gimmick.
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In general, I believe that Laquium doesn't actually physically hurt Pokémon. In my opinion, it's the mental changes that occur, caused by a hormonal imbalance due to metabolic changes. This creates an internal conflict between instinctive and conscious behavior, which causes emotional pain and disorders. It fits in perfectly with this that such psychological regression could also result in a disruption of the bond between trainer and Pokémon. And cases where Pokémon suffer physical damage as a result of their own attacks are consequences similar to those of the move Struggle.
And this thread is a place for speculation and discussion of theories about the plot, regardless of its relation to any of the characters, isn't it? ;)
 
S

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
0cerge said:
In general, I believe that Laquium doesn't actually physically hurt Pokémon. In my opinion, it's the mental changes that occur, caused by a hormonal imbalance due to metabolic changes. This creates an internal conflict between instinctive and conscious behavior, which causes emotional pain and disorders. It fits in perfectly with this that such psychological regression could also result in a disruption of the bond between trainer and Pokémon. And cases where Pokémon suffer physical damage as a result of their own attacks are consequences similar to those of the move Struggle.
And this thread is a place for speculation and discussion of theories about the plot, regardless of its relation to any of the characters, isn't it? ;)
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We’ve literally seen Pokémon take physical damage from it in that when Sideon and Coral used it on their Pokemon when they used the strong spheres for the first time part of Garganacl body started to break and Glalie started to freeze and was clearly in pain.

It’s also been shown that Pokemon infected by Rakurium don’t just stop battling just because they taken damage instead they will continue fighting even when they seriously injured themselves or shouldn’t be able to go on.

And no, it’s not similar to the move struggle a move that doesn’t even show up in the anime.

In all honesty either you are just trolling or you just have really been paying attention to the show and have no idea what your actually talking about.

If anything you’ve just hurt your own argument as the Pokémon move struggle has never been shown to damage the bond between trainer and Pokémon.

The show has made it clearly numerous times and through numerous examples that it has shown that Rakurium and the strong spheres are bad.

So it’s not really up to your opinion as at this point just ignoring reality with the goal of supporting a gimmick that specifically that harms Pokémon.

And even if Rakurium didn’t do physical damage, it doing emotional and mental damage is worst because that’s even harder to recover from and some cases ones that have had taken mental damage don’t recover from it.

So your argument is that “oh hey Strong Spheres don’t cause physical damage and it’s okay that they cause emotional damage and break the bond between trainer and Pokémon and may even traumatize them because hey at least they don’t cause physical damage”.


You didn’t prove anything if anything all you have proven that is you legitimately enjoy seeing Pokémon suffer and you think it hilarious to see a Pokémon’s bond with its trainer break.
 
Kazuniya

Kazuniya

birb
0cerge said:
And this thread is a place for speculation and discussion of theories about the plot, regardless of its relation to any of the characters, isn't it? ;)
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Speculation is fine, but not when it's contradicted by the actual story you're discussing. For example, you claim that Spinel may be telling the truth while only a couple of episodes ago we literally saw him manipulating the audience with lies and out-of-context footage. There is no reason for us to trust Spinel, and there's been no indication that Spinel has benevolent intentions. All of his plans hinge on suffering of Pokemon.

I would love it if Spinel was this villain with noble goals and malicious methods, but he has not been presented as that kind of villain.

To even suggest that he may have a point is silly because the show has not depicted a single moment that would support that idea.
 
0

0cerge

Well-Known Member
Kazuniya said:
Speculation is fine, but not when it's contradicted by the actual story you're discussing. For example, you claim that Spinel may be telling the truth while only a couple of episodes ago we literally saw him manipulating the audience with lies and out-of-context footage. There is no reason for us to trust Spinel, and there's been no indication that Spinel has benevolent intentions. All of his plans hinge on suffering of Pokemon.

I would love it if Spinel was this villain with noble goals and malicious methods, but he has not been presented as that kind of villain.

To even suggest that he may have a point is silly because the show has not depicted a single moment that would support that idea.
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As we saw when he turned Gibeon against Amethio, Spinel rarely lies outright, preferring to manipulate the facts by omitting details and distorting context. If you recall, in Laqua, when he decided there were no more obstacles in his way, he let it slip that he now intended to surpass Gibeon. Apparently, this remained his primary goal. So, it's rather odd to assume that his plans are aimed at making Pokémon suffer. Rather, it's an acceptable price for him, as he's depicted as a scientist who values the end result. However, as was shown, Laquium was merely experimental material for him. He even surrendered the Six Heroes, who ultimately turned out to be mere pawns for him, useful only as bait for RVT and test subjects.
ShadowForce720 said:
We’ve literally seen Pokémon take physical damage from it in that when Sideon and Coral used it on their Pokemon when they used the strong spheres for the first time part of Garganacl body started to break and Glalie started to freeze and was clearly in pain.

It’s also been shown that Pokemon infected by Rakurium don’t just stop battling just because they taken damage instead they will continue fighting even when they seriously injured themselves or shouldn’t be able to go on.

And no, it’s not similar to the move struggle a move that doesn’t even show up in the anime.
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We’ve seen Pokémon take physical damage as a recoil from their own enhanced attacks. Then the Laquium energy recovered the damage. These are simply facts, not value judgments. In essence, this is certainly bad for Pokémon, as it gives them a false sense of invulnerability when only serious injury can stop them.
ShadowForce720 said:
So your argument is that “oh hey Strong Spheres don’t cause physical damage and it’s okay that they cause emotional damage and break the bond between trainer and Pokémon and may even traumatize them because hey at least they don’t cause physical damage”.


You didn’t prove anything if anything all you have proven that is you legitimately enjoy seeing Pokémon suffer and you think it hilarious to see a Pokémon’s bond with its trainer break.
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Please confirm that I claimed that using Strong Spheres is ok. Or that I enjoy seeing Pokémon suffer. Unless that's just your assumption based on the use of an emoji ;)
 
G

Guy100

Well-Known Member
Well, I;m looking forward to how Roy will enhance his bond with the Shiny Lucario, after its defeat to Nemona. The way he scowled at Roy after the loss gave an impression it may think Roy is no longer worthy to be its trainer.

People wanted more personality from the Shiny Lucario, and it seems we may see more of its persona in a future episode.
 
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Kazuniya

Kazuniya

birb
0cerge said:
As we saw when he turned Gibeon against Amethio, Spinel rarely lies outright, preferring to manipulate the facts by omitting details and distorting context.
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Omitting details, distorting context, presenting people as terrorists is lying, yes. Let's call a spade a spade. I'm not sure why you're trying to present his actions as anything else. He's very much lying to the entire world about his actions. This is explicit, not some headcanon.

Taking footage of the kids and telling the world "these kids were trying to hurt these poor Pokemon I was trying to rehabilitate" is just another lie.

0cerge said:
So, it's rather odd to assume that his plans are aimed at making Pokémon suffer.
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I didn't say his plan is to make Pokemon suffer. I said his plan of world domination hinges on Pokemon suffering because his plan hinges on Rakurium, a substance that has explicitly shown to make Pokemon suffer. Which means he is super okay with causing pain and suffering in pursuit of his domination. Typical villain behavior.

0cerge said:
Rather, it's an acceptable price for him, as he's depicted as a scientist who values the end result. However, as was shown, Laquium was merely experimental material for him. He even surrendered the Six Heroes, who ultimately turned out to be mere pawns for him, useful only as bait for RVT and test subjects.
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Yes, and we call this bad guy behavior. Hurting, lying and deceiving is not noble, it's just scummy villain behavior. Horizons has been very explicit about Spinel's portrayal, they're not going to suddenly turn around and make him a misunderstood bad guy #2533.

0cerge said:
Please confirm that I claimed that using Strong Spheres is ok. Or that I enjoy seeing Pokémon suffer. Unless that's just your assumption based on the use of an emoji ;)
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Why did you ignore the whole rest of the post where Shadowforce proves that Rakurium does cause suffering and physical pain?

Anyway, if you want to argue that Spinel is a bad guy with noble goals, or that he's secretly a good guy, please show receipts because you've failed to provide any. You've even ignored other people when they showed you receipts you asked for, so I'm not sure why you're even posting here if you're just going it dismiss people's posts and keep on posting in blissful ignorance.
 
0

0cerge

Well-Known Member
Kazuniya said:
Why did you ignore the whole rest of the post where Shadowforce proves that Rakurium does cause suffering and physical pain?
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Because I agree with some of points there, except for why I think Pokémon's suffering is primarily caused by mental pain rather than physical pain.
Kazuniya said:
Omitting details, distorting context, presenting people as terrorists is lying, yes. Let's call a spade a spade. I'm not sure why you're trying to present his actions as anything else. He's very much lying to the entire world about his actions. This is explicit, not some headcanon.

Taking footage of the kids and telling the world "these kids were trying to hurt these poor Pokemon I was trying to rehabilitate" is just another lie.
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I appreciate the straightforwardness of your judgments, so I will refrain from further comments in this direction, otherwise I might stray from the discussion of anime towards real life, and how such things are called half-truths, or that such lies consist of about 90% real facts, so it is difficult to prove that they are primarily lies.
Kazuniya said:
Yes, and we call this bad guy behavior. Hurting, lying and deceiving is not noble, it's just scummy villain behavior. Horizons has been very explicit about Spinel's portrayal, they're not going to suddenly turn around and make him a misunderstood bad guy #2533.
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This is still debatable, since the antagonists have never been revealed in the same detail as the heroes. Furthermore, the show might suddenly reveal that Laquium was never the core of Spinel's plans, but merely a convenient means, since it's unlikely he shares the same worldview as Gibeon.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the most important thing, so there's no misunderstanding. I'm not arguing that Spinel isn't a good guy, and I'm not saying his actions are justified. He is logical in that he seeks to eliminate his rivals, but beyond that he does not consider himself a villain.
 
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G

Guy100

Well-Known Member
UnovaMaster said:
I hope Roy isn't going to have to rematch Rayquaza

Therefore I hope Lucario Z debuts the same episode as the Rayquaza fight, as its likely the solution to defeating Terayquaza and saves us 1-2 extra Roy eps
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If there is another arc, after the conclusion of the tera type collection plot, then I'm of the impression Roy will not catch Rayquaza in his rematch until near the finale of the horizon story.

I think, we may see Mega Lucario Z in the Rayquaza rematch / raid battle after Roy rekindles his aura connection with the Shiny Lucario to help it unlock a 4th new moveset, which I hope is Dragon Pulse.

My best assumption is that after Roy's rematch with Rayquaza he will gain a more deeper connection with the dragon to earn more of its respect for Roy to convince it to join the RVT's battle with Spinel.

However, if Roy does catch it, then I'll assume Roy will allow the dragon to roam freely as it wants before it resurfaces again to help Roy and Friends defeat Spinel.

However, i'm hoping the upcoming Roy and Rayquaza rematch plot throws us a curve ball, in which Roy loses the battle and gives Rayquaza Friede's gift, before the dragon leaves and decides it wont join the RVT in their battle against Spinel, which convinces the RVT to look for a replacement dragon tera type, in which Friede comes in revealing he caught his own legendary pokemon, revealed to be Koraidon or Miraidon, that posses a dragon tera type.
 
UnovaMaster

UnovaMaster

Well-Known Member
Ah yes, Rayquaza will take its "gift" and then decide it doesn't want to Mega Evolve to help it and Lucius' friends in the climax with Spinel

Opting to go away so that salty Koraidon/Miraidon fans can eat good
 
G

Guy100

Well-Known Member
UnovaMaster said:
Ah yes, Rayquaza will take its "gift" and then decide it doesn't want to Mega Evolve to help it and Lucius' friends in the climax with Spinel

Opting to go away so that salty Koraidon/Miraidon fans can eat good
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Will never happen, but it would be an interesting curve ball of a plot if the dragon was showcased to be less of objective, with the exception to Lucius since he caught the thing. Would almost be a similar scenario to the time Ash's Charizard neglected to participate in one of Ash's Indigo league battles, which he inevitably lost.
 
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A

AzureMagix

Well-Known Member
Guy100 said:
If there is another arc, after the conclusion of the tera type collection plot, then I'm of the impression Roy will not catch Rayquaza in his rematch until near the finale of the horizon story.

I think, we may see Mega Lucario Z in the Rayquaza rematch / raid battle after Roy rekindles his aura connection with the Shiny Lucario to help it unlock a 4th new moveset, which I hope is Dragon Pulse.

My best assumption is that after Roy's rematch with Rayquaza he will gain a more deeper connection with the dragon to earn more of its respect for Roy to convince it to join the RVT's battle with Spinel.

However, if Roy does catch it, then I'll assume Roy will allow the dragon to roam freely as it wants before it resurfaces again to help Roy and Friends defeat Spinel.

However, i'm hoping the upcoming Roy and Rayquaza rematch plot throws us a curve ball, in which Roy loses the battle and gives Rayquaza Friede's gift, before the dragon leaves and decides it wont join the RVT in their battle against Spinel, which convinces the RVT to look for a replacement dragon tera type, in which Friede comes in revealing he caught his own legendary pokemon, revealed to be Koraidon or Miraidon, that posses a dragon tera type.
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wow
 
623devashish

623devashish

Active Member
Guy100 said:
And he probably wont beat it (Rayquaza) during this arc, if the Horizon story continues through another arc.

However, I can imagine two possible scenario's concluding Roy and Uruto's raid battle against the Black Rayquaza during this arc;

1) Roy catches Rayquaza, then gives it the gift Friede left for it, in which afterwards Roy allows Rayquaza to roam across the region until the final showdown with Spinel.

2) Roy and Uruto both fail to catch Rayquaza, but manage to earn more of its respect that the dragon agrees to aid the RVT in the battle against Spinel, and accepts Roy's gift from Friede before flying off.

3) Roy and Uruto lose their battle against Rayquaza but gain the dragon's consent to help the RVT defeat Spinel and give it Friede's gift. At the same time, Roy's Lucario achieves a new mega evolution along with learning a new moverset (Aura Sphere or Dragon Pulse).

4) Roy's lucario achieves a new mega evolution during the raid battle against Rayquaza, in which it learns a new moveset, Dragon Pulse, which ultimately helps Roy and Uruto defeat Rayquaza, with Roy catching the dragon and then giving it Friede's special gift.

I think # 3 may be the most possible scenario.
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Reflecting on this, if Lucario IS to get its Z-Mega form, where does the mega stone come from? The briefcase, some sort of mutation to its existing stone, or... the pebble that Crocalor (now Skeledirge) picked up back in the Mega flashback arc which we theorized was an EverStone and Mayonaisse asked Roy to keep it?
 
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