Where is his development? Because aside from having caught Luxio (who is usually snubbed anyway) he's no better as a trainer now than he was say 30 episodes ago. :/
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Pocket Monsters XY Character Review Thread
- Thread starter Dephender
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Where is his development? Because aside from having caught Luxio (who is usually snubbed anyway) he's no better as a trainer now than he was say 30 episodes ago. :/
Soniman
Break the Limit
Growth isnt always directly tied to how good of a trainer you are
Vernikova
Champion
I realize what I said was an oxymoron in a way, but I agree with this poster. The characters may just be there for laughs, but they've been given their fair share of development so far. Them lacking an active goal isn't a real problem anyway since that's what Ash and Serena are there for.
Vernikova
Champion
People are so picky with words. I may as well go full lawyer if people are just going to skip the actual context of the post. But:
I argue that this definition is too limiting. It's the simplest of definitions and doesn't go in-depth enough and cover many situations. I would rant against such a definition, but I'm not going to do that for Pokemon anymore.
Flat characters are just as important as round characters. They're a must in any work. Clemont and Bonnie could stay the same throughout their entire run, an it wouldn't matter since they're probably a level under the other two.
I argue that this definition is too limiting. It's the simplest of definitions and doesn't go in-depth enough and cover many situations. I would rant against such a definition, but I'm not going to do that for Pokemon anymore.
Flat characters are just as important as round characters. They're a must in any work. Clemont and Bonnie could stay the same throughout their entire run, an it wouldn't matter since they're probably a level under the other two.
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phanpycross
God-king
Tbh, I never found brock interesting, outside a few funny lines Id almost rather Ash travelled alone in OS, all he would need is to catch an onix and starmie, and the series would prolly have been better for it imo.
Same goes for TR, those characters werent ever really that good either, I would rather just have Ash fix COTD problems than their boring useless gags and routines. Ash already had Muk if they felt the need to promote bland poison-types, anyway.
Also Gary<Paul, at least Paul could bother to show up more than thrice before getting defeated in johto.
Whoops, did I just Bash OS, good, hope you people get this is what BW fans go through 5 times a day browsing these forums. It's even in the f*cking title, move the hell on, your post doesnt get better if you add a BW complaint, it's a damn waste of time tbh.
EDIT: should prolly add this wasnt aimed at CC, more like quite a few people in general.
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CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
OS Brock was a very funny and entertaining character and his role served a purpose back then because Ash was a rookie. I even liked Brock through most of AG because he served the same role (especially with May being a beginning trainer and Max being young), but he started to get redundant with DP.
The male companion never goes through much development in any series, but they are doing far more with Clemont character wise than Brock or Cilan.
Satoshi & Touko
Peanuts aren't just a nut.
I've absolutely always loved Brock. He should appear at least for some time every generation IMO. I always appreciated him and his interactions with Ash and how paternal he was. Cilan I also liked. He's entertaining and I loved his metaphors and evaluation times. Clemont...it may just be the fact that I mostly watch the series now for watching Amourshipping, but I can't help but feel that he is just someone who's there. His invention naming bores me and when his inventions explode, or he shows how "un-athletic" he is, I can't do much more than roll my eyes.
Then what kind of "development" in general has his character gained since 2013? Because just as back then, he's still bad at physical activities, lacks courage, has his inventions blow up, etc.
Soniman
Break the Limit
How does a character willing to jump in front of his Luxio to take an oncomming attack without a second thought "lack courage"?
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
I wonder why Clemont never comments much on Serena's close friendship with his sister.
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
Probably because he and Serena don't really interact meaningfully that often. For a 4 person group where one of the main selling points should be the various intra-group dynamics of the XY Quartet we are sadly lacking in meaningful Ash-Bonnie, Serena-Clemont and to an extent Ash-Serena in a non ship bait fashion.
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
The writers purposely don't have Serena and Clemont interact to avoid people from shipping them. Of course...that doesn't stop certain people on tumblr, but I digress.
Unlike Brock who was older than Misty/May/Dawn, this time the male companion is the same age as the girl, so people would easily ship them. Not many people shipped Brock with the main girls, but Clemont/Serena are closer in age.
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
I don't really give a damn about shipping in this anime tbh but I do see where you're coming from, especially since Amour is one of XY's main selling points. That being said its definitively making the group feel a bit disjointed not having all the member interact fluidly with one another. I can't even remember the last time, if it happened at all, that Ash and Bonnie had some significant scenes alone, which is surprising as Bonnie seems like she'd get along great with him. It feels like while the group is close they are also at a distance from each other at the same time. I'm hoping for more character-character interactions in the future.
pokemon fan 132
Well-Known Member
In regards to complaints about Clemont and Bonnie not receiving any "development",. People wil always focus most on characters which have concrete storyline. More episodes dedicated to their development, reveal of pokemon qualities, various sodes to their personalities and some in advance preconceived route through which characters will be taken.
With fans of pokemon series wanting clear cut simplified version of character development(sadly), rather than reading between lines in episodes,. observing subtle changes in characterization which happens gradually and slowly over long period of time analyzing epiusodes and certain events which indicated two things;
-character gaining something from it
-being showed to have dilemma and internal breakes inside itself inhibiting him from moving fiorward.
Delivering more profined and complicated version of growth where characters dont grow just through specific episodes, but through long period in way they perceive world, learn new things and build on friendship with others. With changes starting to be noticeable after some time.
For same reason people developed entirely wrong perception of other past characters like Misty not developing, simply because they often took eisodes focusing on her or playing side role in them for granted.
As something "insignificant and filler which can be skipped"(this holds truth especially to Johto with episodes when she met Sakura, argued with fire trainer Egan,reflected on her friendship with Ash in episodes when battling for Totodile or traveling through Whirl islands, taking care of Wooper in kindergarten, saving Marill and developing close friendship overcoming her fruistration and initial dislike for example). Ignoring changes in dialogue, change of characterization and dealing with trials and struggles on individual episode basis.
Which showed maturity in character, new layer in her sassy, flirty, kindhearted and emotional aspect of personality dealing with personal issues, flaws and reaching new dimension to itself as time went on.
So im not surprised why people are doing exact same mistake for Clemont and Bonnie, overlooking those periodical, but very crucial moments where we get to know better this characters, dive into their history, reasonong behind being persons they are today and their dreams they strive to accomplish.
Clemont was in beginning completely insecure character, lacked courage for anything and had little to no faith in his trainer abilities. But now after almost 60 episodes after he gained more of his own identity as character, learned to be more compassionate about pokemon and resolved not escaping from danger. Fixing broken bonds left on open note in relationships with past pokemon, came to realization to better understand his own feelings and grew in stronger, more confident character.
Backed by various episods such as risking life to save Chespin, wanting to redeem himself after helping TR in building Helioisk mecha. Reconciled with long lost friend Luxray or came to realization how Chespin doesnt disike him or view as bad trainer which cannot offer him care, support and shelter.
Became more engaged in various activities finding himself in various danger situations such as entering Summer camp tasks, trying to ride pokemon like Gogoat, ending into Victreebel mouth etc. Which while being comedy situations showed gradual change in character becoming more brave and proactive.
In comparison Bonnie became better understanding of her own brother strengthening on bond beteen themselves with writers exploring through various episodes on how much Clemont is protective over his little sister. Which doesnt hide pride of her brother accomplishments .
She also get to explore pokemon world and get to better know pokemon establishing close bond with several of them. Putting their own happiness and needs before her own requests showing development in stopping to be as irrational and in some situations selfish as it used to be case in earlier episodes.
Moments such as letting Flabebe go to its owner, befriending Espurr, joining group of kids in saving Laspras finding way to its family, encouraging Ash Fletching not to give up and awaken fighting spirit inside itself when battling Talonflame illustrated this pretty well.
So siblings definitely developed over course of XY series, as much as some tend to overlook it.
Care to explain what you found so "flat" about Brock? I certainly didn't noticed any radical changes to Brock personality in Sinnoh still being wise, caring, mature, flirtatious and assettive having strong moral views to his character.
As evidenced in several episodes such as in scolding Cherubi girl which thought looks matter the most when it comes to pokemon. Helping Ditto trainer or maid with Miltank to better understand their pokemon. Risking his life to find Cherry berries for Ash sick pokemon or playing important role in stopping Team Galactic not just in grand finale, but episodes before that as well. Such as in preventing them from getting Spear Pillar with Ash aid.
Teaching Dawn importance of taking care of helpless pokemo like Shieldon etc.
Being involved in various funny situations such as in drawing Dawn into "Takeshi Paradise!" performance or figuring reason behind pokemoln like Snower pulling jokes on Ash and rest of group.
Brock was maybe underused, but he was hardly "flat lifeles" character as you make it seem to be in DP saga. Far from it.
So basically keeping Ash as only part of equation with no companions to interact to. No exploration of feelings, inner doubts and character personalities as they help flesh each other out. Developing through it?
I disagree with such constatation. If anything Misty and Brock were one of best things which could had happened to pokemon imo contributing heavily to pokemon appeal and popularity.
With their eccentric characters, unique interersts in life, original dreams in showing how pokemon can be raised and become succesful with them taking alternate route compared to being ordinary trainer.
Strong personalities containing underlying depth, dive into character mind and variety of expressions(especially in Misty case) delivering lot of flare, drama, diversity of emotions, suspension, care and optimism in group chemistry. Enriching on anime atmosphere.
All wrapped up with sad backgrounds and insecurities with which people could relate themselves with feeling sorry for characters, funny pokemon and important role in helping Ash to learn how to take care of himself becoming stronger battler.
Were all important things justifying rightfully their place in pokemon history.
Retaliation in bashing other sagas with same measure is hardly way in making people stop disliking pokemon series you may had liked. It only deepens jazz and intolerance between fans.
Not to mention it would be big understatement to say how OS fans are ones responsible for flack BW era of pokemon is getting. If anyhing this forum has way more DP supporters than its case for any other series.
With fans of pokemon series wanting clear cut simplified version of character development(sadly), rather than reading between lines in episodes,. observing subtle changes in characterization which happens gradually and slowly over long period of time analyzing epiusodes and certain events which indicated two things;
-character gaining something from it
-being showed to have dilemma and internal breakes inside itself inhibiting him from moving fiorward.
Delivering more profined and complicated version of growth where characters dont grow just through specific episodes, but through long period in way they perceive world, learn new things and build on friendship with others. With changes starting to be noticeable after some time.
For same reason people developed entirely wrong perception of other past characters like Misty not developing, simply because they often took eisodes focusing on her or playing side role in them for granted.
As something "insignificant and filler which can be skipped"(this holds truth especially to Johto with episodes when she met Sakura, argued with fire trainer Egan,reflected on her friendship with Ash in episodes when battling for Totodile or traveling through Whirl islands, taking care of Wooper in kindergarten, saving Marill and developing close friendship overcoming her fruistration and initial dislike for example). Ignoring changes in dialogue, change of characterization and dealing with trials and struggles on individual episode basis.
Which showed maturity in character, new layer in her sassy, flirty, kindhearted and emotional aspect of personality dealing with personal issues, flaws and reaching new dimension to itself as time went on.
So im not surprised why people are doing exact same mistake for Clemont and Bonnie, overlooking those periodical, but very crucial moments where we get to know better this characters, dive into their history, reasonong behind being persons they are today and their dreams they strive to accomplish.
Clemont was in beginning completely insecure character, lacked courage for anything and had little to no faith in his trainer abilities. But now after almost 60 episodes after he gained more of his own identity as character, learned to be more compassionate about pokemon and resolved not escaping from danger. Fixing broken bonds left on open note in relationships with past pokemon, came to realization to better understand his own feelings and grew in stronger, more confident character.
Backed by various episods such as risking life to save Chespin, wanting to redeem himself after helping TR in building Helioisk mecha. Reconciled with long lost friend Luxray or came to realization how Chespin doesnt disike him or view as bad trainer which cannot offer him care, support and shelter.
Became more engaged in various activities finding himself in various danger situations such as entering Summer camp tasks, trying to ride pokemon like Gogoat, ending into Victreebel mouth etc. Which while being comedy situations showed gradual change in character becoming more brave and proactive.
In comparison Bonnie became better understanding of her own brother strengthening on bond beteen themselves with writers exploring through various episodes on how much Clemont is protective over his little sister. Which doesnt hide pride of her brother accomplishments .
She also get to explore pokemon world and get to better know pokemon establishing close bond with several of them. Putting their own happiness and needs before her own requests showing development in stopping to be as irrational and in some situations selfish as it used to be case in earlier episodes.
Moments such as letting Flabebe go to its owner, befriending Espurr, joining group of kids in saving Laspras finding way to its family, encouraging Ash Fletching not to give up and awaken fighting spirit inside itself when battling Talonflame illustrated this pretty well.
So siblings definitely developed over course of XY series, as much as some tend to overlook it.
Care to explain what you found so "flat" about Brock? I certainly didn't noticed any radical changes to Brock personality in Sinnoh still being wise, caring, mature, flirtatious and assettive having strong moral views to his character.
As evidenced in several episodes such as in scolding Cherubi girl which thought looks matter the most when it comes to pokemon. Helping Ditto trainer or maid with Miltank to better understand their pokemon. Risking his life to find Cherry berries for Ash sick pokemon or playing important role in stopping Team Galactic not just in grand finale, but episodes before that as well. Such as in preventing them from getting Spear Pillar with Ash aid.
Teaching Dawn importance of taking care of helpless pokemo like Shieldon etc.
Being involved in various funny situations such as in drawing Dawn into "Takeshi Paradise!" performance or figuring reason behind pokemoln like Snower pulling jokes on Ash and rest of group.
Brock was maybe underused, but he was hardly "flat lifeles" character as you make it seem to be in DP saga. Far from it.
So basically keeping Ash as only part of equation with no companions to interact to. No exploration of feelings, inner doubts and character personalities as they help flesh each other out. Developing through it?
I disagree with such constatation. If anything Misty and Brock were one of best things which could had happened to pokemon imo contributing heavily to pokemon appeal and popularity.
With their eccentric characters, unique interersts in life, original dreams in showing how pokemon can be raised and become succesful with them taking alternate route compared to being ordinary trainer.
Strong personalities containing underlying depth, dive into character mind and variety of expressions(especially in Misty case) delivering lot of flare, drama, diversity of emotions, suspension, care and optimism in group chemistry. Enriching on anime atmosphere.
All wrapped up with sad backgrounds and insecurities with which people could relate themselves with feeling sorry for characters, funny pokemon and important role in helping Ash to learn how to take care of himself becoming stronger battler.
Were all important things justifying rightfully their place in pokemon history.
Retaliation in bashing other sagas with same measure is hardly way in making people stop disliking pokemon series you may had liked. It only deepens jazz and intolerance between fans.
Not to mention it would be big understatement to say how OS fans are ones responsible for flack BW era of pokemon is getting. If anyhing this forum has way more DP supporters than its case for any other series.
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Pokegirl Fan~
Liko>>>>>Ash
I agree, we need more AshxBonnie and SerenaxClemont interactions.
I recently saw on the main Pokemon website for the new dub season promotional information, it says that Ash will meet his new rival. I don't really know how much weight that would carry, but since it is from the official company which dubs episodes around the same time as they are prepared in Japan it might be valid. http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/ash-and-friends-return-to-kalos/
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
Even if the kid is called a rival, doesn't mean we'll be seeing him all saga and into the league.
Don't see how a kid with a Treecko can possibly compete with Ash, especially since this kid is probably a rookie.
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