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Pokémon Anime Versus Thread v4

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
We all know Axew will asspull a move, knock Haxorus to the floor, and then never use said move again
You mean like the time that Axew manage to do some damage to Cynthia's Garchomp even though Paul couldn't do a thing lol?
 

mehmeh1

Top Manager of the Dragon of Dojima
You mean like the time that Axew manage to do some damage to Cynthia's Garchomp even though Paul couldn't do a thing lol?
yep
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
You mean like the time that Axew manage to do some damage to Cynthia's Garchomp even though Paul couldn't do a thing lol?

What's more shocing was that axew was able to tank both of garchomp's dracio meteor as well as dragon rush attacks which made it seemed more stupid.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
What? Paul couldn't even damage Garchomp, so there was obviously something wrong there.
So by that dumb logic you believe Axew is stronger than Paul's Torterra and the rest of his pokemon he used against Cynthia at the time?Please tell me you're trolling cuz if you are we can end this discussion right now.Chimchar,Weavile,Murkrow and Torterra all went down in one attack yet a weak a** Axew that went through little to no training at all can take attacks from the sinnoh champion's Garchomp?!The writers were clearly drunk making that episode or they wanted to add dramatic effect to make the battle longer by just bypassing the fact that a level 5 Axew is up against a level 200 Garchomp.

Torterra used Giga Drain which caused Garchomp to collapse to one knee then proceeded to use frenzy plant.Soon after Garchomp got up and KO'd Torterra with just 1 Brick break,yet I'm supposed to believe that an untrained inexperienced Axew can take a Dragon Rush and a Draco Meteor.This isn't a problem on Paul's end it's a problem on the writer's end,Axew had no business withstanding a dragon rush.
 
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mehmeh1

Top Manager of the Dragon of Dojima
Lysandre's Pyroar vs J's Salamence?
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Ah the ‘Axew Conundrum’; already addressed it a long time ago: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ash-greninja-battle-viability-assessment-compilation.662620/


Scroll through the refutations section to find my assessment of it. Actually to make this easier I’ll just post the relevant part over here:

— For anyone who believes that (Ash-)Greninja’s perfromance against Diantha’s (Mega) Gardevoir was analogous to Axew’s perfromance against Cynthia’s Garchomp and therefore shouldn’t be given serious consideration since if Axew’s feat were taken seriously, then Axew would be superior to some of Paul’s Pokémon (in particular his Torterra as of DP 40):

A) Comparison of the Iris’s Axew vs Cynthia’s Garchomp and (Ash-)Greninja vs Diantha’s (Mega) Gardevoir battles:

- Garchomp does not attempt to dodge, block or counter any of Axew’s attacks whereas (Mega) Gardevoir attempts to dodge, block or counter every single 1 of (Ash-)Greninja’s attacks.

- Due to the above (Ash-)Greninja earned every single hit it landed whereas Axew earned none of the hits it landed.

- Axew took 2 super effective attacks from Garchomp and Greninja took 1 not very effective attack and 1 super effective attack from Base Gardevoir. On a side note using the fact that Garchomp’s Draco Meteor had a visible charge time to claim that Garchomp wasn’t suppressing herself against Axew is fallacious since Gardevoir’s Moonblast against Base Greninja also had a visible charge time and yet it is unanimously accepted that Gardevoir wasn’t battling seriously from an offensive standpoint against Base Greninja specifically (since that would go against the premise of the battle which was to draw out and learn more about the Ash-Greninja form).

- Axew clashed with 0 of Garchomp’s moves whereas Veil Ash-Greninja has 4 clashes with (Mega) Gardevoir’s regular Shadow Ball which include Cut vs Shadow Ball, Water Shuriken vs Shadow Ball, Water Shuriken vs Shadow Ball (MG) and Aerial Ace vs Shadow Ball; 2 clashes against Reflect where the 2nd time Veil A-G was able to make the barrier collapse and finally as Mastered A-G overpowered Mega Gardevoir’s Multi Fused Shadow Ball (the strongest variant of the move ever seen in the anime) making 7 clashes in total.

- Only Axew’s Giga Impact deals damage to Garchomp whereas the Scratch barrage and Dragon Rage have practically no effect (so 1 move dealt damage). On the other hand both Base Greninja’s and VA-G’s Cut deal damage on Gardevoir and MA-G’s Water Shuriken deals (substantial) damage on Mega Gardevoir; in addition Gardevoir is pushed back after the Cut vs Shadow Ball explosion (right after Greninja becomes VA-G) indicating that partial damage was dealt and based on Diantha’s comment right afterwards she believes that this Cut (with its power amplified thanks to forward momentum) would have dealt substantial damage had it hit Gardevoir directly, and finally the Cut (+ Double Team) causing Reflect to collapse also likely dealt partial damage (so 5 moves dealt damage). This also shows that it’s far easier to dismiss Axew’s “feat” as an outlier than (Ash-)Greninja’s since for the latter we have multiple cases of being able to deal damage (a.k.a a consistency measure) whereas for the former we only have 1 case where damage was dealt.

- Cynthia deliberately stops Garchomp’s last attack and calls the battle off whereas Diantha never does either of these things (Ash fainting does stop the battle, but the battle stopping was never Diantha’s voluntary choice).

- There is no reliable method for determining the existence of an upper bound for how much Garchomp was suppressing herself in terms of raw stats whereas there is a reliable method for determining the existence of an upper bound for how much Gardevoir could feasibly have been suppressing herself in terms of raw stats since she resorted to Mega Evolution. Note: the greater this upper bound is, the further said Pokémon was from using its maximum stats.

- The (Ash-)Greninja vs (Mega) Gardevoir battle lasted roughly 3 times as long as the Axew vs Garchomp battle (with respect to on-screen time progression and not in-universe time progression); this indicates that the writers cared far more about the former battle which implies that the former battle is meant to comparatively be taken far more seriously than the latter battle.

As you can see Greninja wins overwhelmingly in all but 1 comparison (and it’s already covered that we have no upper bound for how much Cynthia was holding back but we do for how much Diantha could have been holding back) .

B) Cynthia’s Garchomp when facing attacks from Paul’s Pokémon:

— Garchomp vs Chimchar
- Garchomp blocks Fire Spin with her scythe arm
- Garchomp counters Chimchar’s Dig with her Dig

— Garchomp vs Weavile
- Garchomp also blocks Blizzard with her scythe arm
- Garchomp (mid Dragon Rush) dodges Ice Beams

— Garchomp vs Murkrow
- Garchomp dodges Haze
- Garchomp counters Sky Attack with Giga Impact

— Garchomp vs Torterra
- Garchomp is unable to do anything against Giga Drain because she’s immobile
- Garchomp blocks Frenzy Plant right after she regains mobility

Notice the pattern here; Cynthia’s Garchomp always either blocks, dodges or counters a move of any of Paul’s Pokémon whenever she is physically able to whereas against Axew she didn’t even attempt to block, dodge or counter a single one of Axew’s moves. This along with the above assessment of the Axew - Garchomp battle solidifies that Axew has no business being compared to any of Paul’s Pokémon whatsoever much less (Ash-)Greninja. Also Axew tanking 2 SE moves can’t be used to compare it to any of Paul’s Pokémon (who all got OHKed) since by the above assessment Garchomp could have just been suppressing herself to the point that her attacks became weak enough for Axew to tank.


Anyone who seriously still subscribes to the ‘Axew conundrum’ is either ignorant, insincere, incompetent or (most likely) all of the above; that’s all ^_^.
 
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Dream Lad

Banned
The writers were clearly drunk making that episode or they wanted to add dramatic effect to make the battle longer by just bypassing the fact that a level 5 Axew is up against a level 200 Garchomp.

It's inconsistent writing. The anime does it all the time. It's why individual feats can't be taken into a vacuum and META can't be ignored, otherwise you're left with nonsensical comparisons and have to create headcanons to try to explain them.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
Since no one can think of an answer, I guess Ruby's Swampert from Pokemon Adventures even surpasses Alain's Mega Charizard X's strength.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Since we’re on the topic of consistency or lack thereof, I remembered how Ash’s Charizard in late BW got wrecked by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier team plasma pokémon yet according to some here is still somehow the most consistent pokémon Ash has ever owned xD.
 

mehmeh1

Top Manager of the Dragon of Dojima
J’s Salamence. I recall it even giving Brandon and his Regis some trouble.
What feats does Lysandre's Pyroar have to put him above J's Salamence?
I remembered wrong the scene where he interrupted alain vs steven, I thought pyroar cancelled out the attacks, but MCX and M Metagross stopped themselves
In that case, what about Pyroar vs Guzma's Golisopod?
Since no one can think of an answer, I guess Ruby's Swampert from Pokemon Adventures even surpasses Alain's Mega Charizard X's strength.
RS/E Swampert probably not, but ORAS Swampert could probably be a challenge, though I may need to read that arc again
Since we’re on the topic of consistency or lack thereof, I remembered how Ash’s Charizard in late BW got wrecked by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier team plasma pokémon yet according to some here is still somehow the most consistent pokémon Ash has ever owned xD.
Wait, did he actually get wrecked? What episode was that? Are we about to see the birth of the Fodder grunt tier conundrum?
 
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