Can’t comment on Pyroar vs Golisopod until after the Alola league.
He threw himself last second to shield for the first 2. Then was apparently too stunned to do anything about the 3rd and got flung back and crashed into the ground like a beta b****. Fact is if Charizard is supposed to be some epic champion tier pokémon or even something like a Flint’s Infernape, there’s no way in hell he should have been so affected by 3 shadow balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon . Flint’s Infernape would have just countered with an attack of his own, blocked the attack or taken it and acted like the attack never existed. Cynthia’s Garchomp would have blocked with her scythe arm. Steven’s Metagross and Diantha’s Gardevoir would have deflected it with Psychic. Alder’s Bouffalant would like F-Ape just have taken the attack and not given a damn (actually the attack would be nullified since it’s a normal type lol but even if they were effective, they wouldn’t do squat). Fact is none of those pokémon would have ever been portrayed as pathetically as Ash’s Charizard was against those fodder grunt tier pokémon.
Actually that scene shows what a moron he is for not counter attacking since even flippin Pignite just after had the intuitive battle sense to use Flamethrower to counter the incoming attacks towards a downed Charizard; guess all that ‘experience’ it should supposedly have ain’t worth s***.
Well it was slow enough that he needed Pignite of all pokémon defending him while he took his sweet time xD.
It shows that he’s capable of getting wrecked by fodder grunt tier pokémon even when he’s completely serious and on guard and that’s enough; the writers (you love META right?) are never gonna make a true ‘epic tier’ (champion and top end e4 ace pokémon) ever look that pathetic against such pitiful opponents.
Which as a consequence just serves to undermine the supposed presumed gap between Charizard and Ash’s other unova pokémon present in that battle (including Oshawott lmfao).
Getting flung-back and crashing into the ground like a beta b**** definitely isn’t gonna support the case that he can xD.
Cool and all of that ‘battle sense’ still gave him worse judgment than flipping Pignite xD.
Why dont you think that Garchomp simply reduced power of its moves by 90% or something like this? Pikachu did it during training with newly hatched Scraggy etc. While Axew attacking Garchomp with move with such a power was just a shock for Cynthia's ace. So it was not a strong Axew and weak Garchomp, the last one just thought that Axew could not posses that powerful move and did not care about defending. Garchomp just was caught off guard.
Yeah Garchomp took Scratch and Dragon Rage with no attempt to dodge, block or counter yet the attacks practically did nothing. It’s not her fault that Axew suddenly pulls a Deus Ex Move in Giga Impact out of nowhere, not to mention that Axew literally never uses that move ever again further enforcing what an outlier it dealing damage on Garchomp with said move really is.
That was just a friendly training session, not a serious battle unlike in Paul's case. Nobody excepted Axew uses freaking Giga Impact.
People easily accepted Scraggy beating Simisage and Simipour, Pikachu soaking hellish Mudsdale with Stamina, but supposed to deny fact that Axew can catch Garchomp off guard. I think that is just antipathy towards Iris' character and nothing else. Even her victory in Don Battle was very controversial to the western fandom.
Probably Infernape would be victorious due to its type advantage, but I see this match like very tough and close.
IDK maybe not battling for such a long time caused his durability to get rusty.
You realise he used Slash to counter right? Him coming out of it without visible damage just means the moves cancelled each other out; it’s really not a tanking feat.
Well I guess the Articuno that fought Charizard really wasn’t that great attack wise. Matter of fact Brandon’s Dusclops needed fewer hits to KO it later on (IIRC Articuno got about 7-8 hits in whereas Dusclops needed 5 for the KO).
Doesn’t change that Charizard was fully serious and on guard. If it’s supposed to have so much combat experience, then it should have intuitively used a move (e.g. Slash, Dragon Tail) to counter the incoming attacks as it was rushing towards Ash. You could say that Ash being in danger clouded his judgment and made him forget to counter/block, but this is exactly the sort of situation where his supposed greater experience should have come into play and made him use a counterattack like it was 2nd nature. In addition there’s also the matter that he actually was significantly affected by those attacks. For the first 2 they stunned him to the point that he could do nothing about the 3rd and then the 3rd flings him back and makes him crash into the ground after which he needed Pignite to defend him while he got up. I just can’t see the writers making something like this happen if this were a Pokémon like say Flint’s Infernape in that situation.
Ash’s Charizard is my favorite Pokémon character in the entire anime. I was freakin hyped when I saw the opening for this arc and saw it facing-off with a freakin Reshiram (if that had actually happened and Zard managed to hold his own, then there’d be no debate that he’s Ash’s strongest). Instead they have him looking pathetic against fodder grunt tier pokémon to my sheer disappointment.
He should have intuitively done a split second counter with Slash or Dragon Tail (would have been cool af if he smashed those Shadow Balls back to the enemy with Dragon Tail). He should have been able to counter the 3rd Shadow Ball with Flamethrower. He should not have needed Pignite to defend him while he got up.
Yeah and displayed better battle sense in the process despite supposedly having way less combat experience.
Sure and as a consequence it just undermined Zard supposedly being on this completely different lvl from Ash’s other pokémon present there.
She still literally did not bother to block, dodge or counter a single 1 of Axew’s moves (Axew still loses energy even if she does any of those things) and prior to Deus Ex Giga Impact treated said moves like they didn’t exist. Also as Hanto pointed out, pokémon can suppress the power of their moves, so it would make the most sense that she was doing so against Axew (and there’s no way to bound her degree of suppression). If you’re gonna use charge time, then remember that Base Gardevoir’s Moonblast had a visible charge time against Base Greninja and I also think that Base Gardevoir was suppressing herself from a power standpoint against Base Greninja since KOing him before he transforms would have gone against the premise of the battle. In general my point is that charge times can’t be used to prove that a pokémon used a move with serious intent to KO.
If you believe that Cynthia treated those battles equivalently, then you’re objectively mistaken. That’s all there is to it.
It’s training but we have no idea if it’s practicing tanking hits hence why I said in terms of durability.
I’m just pointing out something that was explicitly shown and contradicts Charizard being some epic tier pokémon (champion or top end e4 lvl) like you want to make him out to be by claiming he’s reached some unquantifiably higher lvl with no way to cap him. Well sorry to rain on your wanking of him, but this very much caps how strong Charizard could possibly be.
Then they should have written a scenario which didn’t undermine Charizard but guess what; they didn’t!
Yeah well getting flung back and crashing into the ground after only 3 Shadow Balls + needing Pignite to defend him while he got up really isn’t helping the case that he could.
There were way more pokémon present there than TRio ever had lol. Also how they’re beaten tends to vary a lot (usually because the equipment they use tends to vary in quality).
Just pointing out what the anime has explicitly shown. I guess being a legendary like Articuno isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Charizard never had to actually tank any of Iris’s Dragonite’s moves because he countered them all with attacks of his own and this just means Harrison’s Blaziken wasn’t really all that ‘op’. Also let’s clear the air here:
You’re right; it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter whether it was a battling scenario or not since that doesn’t change Charizard’s attributes likes his durability or battle sense with the former being shown to be low enough that he got owned by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon and him being blatantly outperformed by Pignite in the latter.
It was explicitly depicted that Charizard doesn’t have the battle sense to instinctively counter/block and has low enough durability that 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon were able to fling it back and make it crash into the ground with it then needing Pignite to defend it while getting up.
I wonder if you actually understand how to properly use the word ‘inappropriate’ or if you’re just throwing it around like a buzzword. Also strawman; I never said that Zard isn’t E4 lvl (actually I outright said in my above post that I do put him in the E4 spectrum). Cool and you have zero objective basis with which to support that belief.
It’s either there or lower. Aaron’s pokémon are the strongest we know of (being E4 lvl by definition) who were also shown to be capable of taking significant damage from grunt tier pokémon (TRio’s). They’ve never and I can’t fathom them ever portraying a Champion’s Ace or a top end E4 Ace pokémon (like Flint’s Infernape) to be so pitiful against such weak opponents and since they did that to Charizard, it would stand to reason that they don’t view him in the same vein as they do those true ‘epic tier’ pokémon.
This on the other hand is entirely opinion based, and you have no way of objectivity supporting it.
That was about to literally murder him yes I remember.
Everyone except Blastoise would be utter fodder for E4 Aces and even Blastoise at best would do about as well as Pikachu did against Agatha’s Gengar ( which by the end of the battle wasn’t much since Gengar used Dream Eater). Actually nvm that’s ‘just my opinion’ would be your retort. So please do tell... how do Gary’s pokémon measure up to E4 lvl? burden of proof is on you to justify that they would be comparable to a lvl that’s on the top end of the trainer pokémon spectrum.
Okay and how does Harrison’s Blaziken compare to the E4? Again burden of proof is on you.
Guess that means you overrate Articuno. Brandon’s Dusclops is demonstrably better.
I mean... they did have 3 move clashes where in none of them was Charizard able to actually overpower Dragonite. What gave it the advantage was catching Dragonite off guard with it’s amazing speed and then landing a solid super effective hit. Charizard is substantially better than Dragonite but let’s not act like there’s some astronomic difference between the 2 (else Zard should have outright overpowered Dragonite in the Flamethrower vs Flamethrower, Wing Attack vs Thunder Punch and Slash vs Dragon Rush move clashes but he didn’t).
Garchomp did not block, dodge or counter any of Axew’s moves. Garchomp blocked, dodged and countered every single 1 of Paul’s pokémon’s moves with the sole exception being when she was physically unable to due to Giga Impact recharge. I’ll let the readers decide if she was truly treating both battles equivalently on the basis of the descriptive facts I’ve just stated.
I brought up an aspect that I figured you agreed with so as to make a more general point about move charging =/= seriousness in particular intent to KO, but whatever.
Explained below.
Yeah this is getting old; let’s get to the heart of the matter. What was my intention for bringing up this performance? To show that Charizard is capable of being massively inconsistent thus dispelling this notion that he is apparently Ash’s ‘most consistent’ pokémon. Sorry but you can’t have a pokémon get flung back and crash into the ground from only 3 Shadow Balls by fodder grunt tier pokémon and then need Pignite to defend it while it gets up, and then turn around and call it the paragon of consistency as far as Ash Pokémon go. That is objective rubbish.
All I’m doing is stating what was explicitly shown. Let me do it again: Charizard got owned by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon and then needed Pignite defending him while he took his sweet time getting up. It’s only a ‘contradiction’ if we assume Charizard is the paragon of consistency, but as blatantly shown here, Charizard is capable of being massively inconsistent.
And yet after all those times they show him getting flung back and crashing into the ground by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon and then needing Pignite defending him while he got up.
Nah there’s no contradiction; it just shows that he’s not the beacon of consistency that you want to make him out to be.
Actually nah I can explain it another way; Charizard is...... wait for it..... inconsistent!. I was mainly doing the belittling before for fun; realistically though I still think Articuno is capped by Brandon’s Dusclops based on how both performed against Charizard and that caps both Articuno and BF Zard at E4 non-ace lvl (it’d be a bit ridiculous if Brandon, even if he is the strongest FB, had non-aces on the lvl of E4 Aces or higher). We objectively know that Dusclops needed fewer hits than Articuno to get the KO. We also objectively know that even before the ST blunder, Dusclops had well over 50% of his health remaining as he went on to survive 4 iterations of Leech Seed draining (1/8 * 4 = 1/2) and Bulbasaur still needed Razor Leaf + Solarbeam to get the job done. E4 non-Ace lvl is the fairest rating I can give both of them at that point, but hey; that’s just ‘my opinion’ right (even if I justify it far better than you can your wanked assessments of them).
I’m just stating what was shown: Charizard shielded Ash without having the intuitive battle sense to use a counter move, then got stunned by the 2 incoming Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon resulting in him apparently being unable to do anything about the 3rd Shadow Ball from another fodder grunt tier pokémon which sent him flinging back and crashing into the ground after which he required Pignite defending him as he got up.
Yeah and in the process made his battle sense out to be worse than Pignite’s xD. If the anime wanted to, they could have written a scenario where he looks heroic without being inconsistent (it’s not hard), but they didn’t! Therefore, say it with me, Charizard is inconsistent!
You said that I’m only doing this because I don’t like people putting Charizard on top (a.k.a you’re the 1 who brought up Charizard’s placement relative to other Ash pokémon into this discussion); I used those polls as a means of showing that based on my cognizance the majority of pokémon anime fans don’t put Zard on top therefore refuting the accusation lodged at me (since I wouldn’t really care about such a minority opinion). Please I dare you to try; it’ll be a good humbling experience for you to realize that the broader pokémon anime community doesn’t give a s*** about what you have to say, or do you just not have the Voltorbs to do it ^_^. Also it’s amusing that you pinged mockingj of all people; I guess alternate accounts tend to be kindred spirits xD.
Because Aaron’s pokémon are the strongest we know of while being capable of displaying similar inconsistency, hence putting Zard at their lvl (meaning he’d be capped at lower E4 Ace lvl) is the best I can give him given this performance. He’s not on some unquantifiably higher lvl and he’s certainly not on the lvl of real ‘epic tier’ pokémon like Champion Aces and top end E4 Aces.
Majority of Ash’s pokémon are inconsistent; I’m just showing that Charizard is right there with them and is not some paragon of consistency.
Your use of the word ‘inappropriate’ is inappropriate. That performance shows that Charizard is capable of being massively inconsistent; there is no way around it, so let’s stop this whole ‘Charizard is the most consistent Ash pokémon ever and has reached some unquantifiably high lvl with no means of capping him’ shall we.
More like assigning the appropriate constraints to how strong Charizard could possibly be and still be capable of displaying such an inconsistency. Also this whole ‘non-battling situation’ being used as a means of downplaying the significance of the performance can also be added to your list of objective rubbish. Charizard was in a situation where Ash, Pignite and all of his other friends were in danger (worst case scenario is they’re imprisoned or die) ergo the stakes were actually higher than in most actual battles and yet despite this Charizard had durability low enough that it got sent flinging back crashing into the ground by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon after which he required Pignite to defend him while he took his sweet time getting up with Pignite outright showcasing superior battle sense over him. All of this happened after the rest of his ‘battling resume’ meaning even after everything he did, the writers view him as someone who is capable of looking so pathetic against such pitiful opponents. It’s an inconsistency and let’s acknowledge it as such meaning we can put an end to this rubbish about Charizard being some paragon of consistency like you are so desperately trying to make him out to be.
Where does it stack up to the E4?
Where do they stack up to the E4?
Where does it stack up to the E4?
Where does it stack up to the E4?
How do the other Charizard in that valley stack up to the E4?
Ended up with it’s head on the ground and about to get literally murdered yes.
Where does it stack up to the E4?
Where do they stack up to the E4?
Where does it stack up to the E4?
Capped by Brandon’s Dusclops that can at best be E4 non-Ace lvl.
Even before that supposed ‘PIS’ was 1 hit away from being KOed while Dusclops objectively had over half it’s health left.
Vague and also redundant since most of the significant battles it contains have already been mentioned by you.
Had 3 even move clashes and N claims that both pokémon gained the other’s respect, so while Zard was much better let’s not act like the difference was astronomical.
And after all of that they had it flung back and crash into the ground by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon after which he needed Pignite to defend him while he took his sweet time getting up. This by definition shows that Charizard is capable of massive inconsistency; like it or not.
Then they shouldn’t have written a scenario where he looked so inconsistent with all of those prior performance. It’s completely absurd to call a pokémon capable of such inconsistency “Ash’s most consistent pokémon” and unfortunately your desperate excuses and speculations won’t change that!
I don’t need anybody else here because it was explicitly shown that he was capable of getting owned like a beta b**** by said fodder grunt tier pokémon. It’s a massive inconsistency which proves my main point about Charizard not being Ash’s most consistent pokémon; there’s no way around this.
You’re still sticking with that poor excuse? If they really wanted to, they could have just written a scenario where everyone gets appropriate shine and Charizard doesn’t look so inconsistent, but they didn’t! This means that on some lvl those writers do view Charizard to be capable of such inconsistency and whether you like it or not, that very much caps how strong he could possibly be.
Yes inconsistencies happen a lot in this show and Charizard is no exception, so let’s acknowledge what Charizard is for such a performance; inconsistent!
Still inappropriately using the word ‘inappropriate’ I see.
Doesn’t change the fact of what actually happened and what that it implies that.... Charizard is... wait for it.... inconsistent!
Don’t make false accusations and then complain when they’re refuted with evidence by claiming irrelevance. You’re both alternate accounts of permabanned members Navin; I wonder if you really didn’t get what I meant or were just invoking a strawman.
And Charizard is no exception. You’re never gonna see true epic tier pokémon like Champion Aces and top end E4 Aces portrayed like how Charizard against those fodder grunt tier pokémon ergo forgive me for not buying this BS that Charizard is apparently on some unquantifiably high lvl with no means to cap him.
Battles are pokémon using moves on each other so in essence this was most certainly a ‘battle’ just that the stakes were far higher than mere sport. It doesn’t excuse Charizard having low enough durability such that 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon could cause it to crash into the ground with it then needing Pignite defending him not to mention being objectively outperformed by Pignite in battle sense despite supposedly having so much more experience. Such factors objectively make Charizard an inconsistent pokémon; end of story!
Yes and guess what that means; that Charizard is a, say it with me now, massively inconsistent pokémon! So please stop spouting this nonsense about him being the most consistent Ash pokémon ever and being at some unquantifiablly high lvl with no means of capping, but if that’s too hard then go on; continue to pour your utter desperation into this thread; I can just keep on pointing out what a factually inconsistent pokémon he is all year long ^_^.
You’re just spewing the same objective rubbish over and over again. If the writers really wanted to, they could have written a scenario that satisfied all of that while still keeping Charizard consistent but guess what mr. delusional, they didn’t! Instead they show him getting flung back crashing into the ground by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon after which he required Pignite to defend him while getting up. I am not going to ignore the facts because they don’t mesh with your idealized perception of the flying lizard. Let me say it again; I have zero interest in your desperate excuses and baseless speculation. It is an inconsistency and shows that Charizard can be a massively inconsistent pokémon; nothing more and noting less.
I guess you lack reading comprehension then since I was citing an example analogous to the BW 121 sequence with Aaron’s pokémon and those happen to be the strongest pokémon (by definition of being E4 lvl) to whom a similar inconsistency has happened to. By portrayal the writers believe that both Charizard and Aaron’s pokémon are capable of taking significant damage against fodder grunt tier pokémon whereas we’ve never had a similar case for trainer pokémon of a higher lvl ( Champion Ace and top end E4 Ace). Based on this I would conclude that the highest lvl Charizard could possibly be at is lower end E4 Ace lvl. Since I’m the 1 who started this topic and you responded to me, let me fill you in on what it actually is since again you seem to lack reading comprehension:
And the vast majority of them are weaker than Aaron’s pokémon by definition yet Aaron’s Pokémon were also capable of displaying a similar inconsistency. Besides all you’re doing by telling me that Charizard has tanked better attacks is that he is.... wait for it.... inconsistent! Thank you so much for helping me prove my point ^_^.
And yet they had him, say it with me now, get flung back and crash into the wall by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon after which he needed Pignite to defend him while he took his sweet time getting up. This is a fact; it will not change just because you choose to ignore what actually happened and make desperate excuses.
To lower E4 Ace lvl? I’m so sorry; I didn’t realize that such a high lvl was so beneath him.
First off you also lack vocabulary comprehension with your use of the word ‘inappropriate’. 2nd off overvaluing? Really? Based on that feat alone he should be at fodder grunt tier pokémon lvl yet I’m placing him at lower end E4 ace lvl which is far above that, so please enlighten me; how exactly am I ‘overvaluing’ this feat? I’m sorry, but not putting him on the same lvl as epic tier pokémon like Champion Aces and top end E4 Aces =/= downplaying.
Whatever mr. hypocrite. I’m literally just stating what factually happened and concluding as a consequence that Charizard isn’t Ash’s most consistent pokémon and is capped in terms of how strong he could possibly be yet still display such an inconsistency. You on the other hand are the 1 over analyzing the scene by talking about notions like ‘writer aim’ and trying to use that as a means to deny what was explicitly shown even though you have zero way of knowing what the writers were actually thinking and are continuously ignoring the simple fact that the writers could have easily written a scenario satisfying the exact same ‘aim’ while still maintaining Charizard’s consistency yet they didn’t!
They ‘showed’ him lacking the intuitive battle sense to use a counter attack, getting owned by 3 Shadow Balls from fodder grunt tier pokémon and finally needing Pignite to defend him as he got up. That’s what they ‘showed’; whether anyone wants to interpret it as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ is none of my concern.
‘Non-battling’ doesn’t diminish the fact of what actually happened and I love how you continue to ignore that said ‘non-battling’ sequence happened after all of those battle feats which further shows that Charizard is factually capable of massive inconsistency. Also pretty sure Aaron’s pokémon have tanked far stronger attacks as well since he’s a high end trainer in the champions’ league by definition.
A.k.a objectively got outperformed by Pignite in battle sense since the latter actually had the sense to use a counter attack.
Pignite was also not commanded yet had the battle sense to actually use a move even though on paper it’s far less experienced than Charizard.
Yeah by needing Pignite to defend him while he was down.
None of that ‘context’ can dismiss the fact that it’s an inconsistency and hence Charizard is an inconsistent pokémon especially in terms of durability and battle sense.
Yes which by definition makes Charizard.... wait for it.... inconsistent! Thank you once again for helping my case ^_^.
Ah good ‘ol confirmation bias; classic Navin! That ‘random’ site has over a million members and provides a far better representation of what the pokémon anime community actually thinks than this echo chamber. ‘conspiracy’; no offense but you’ve done a terrible job at hiding who you are.
Go look up the definition of inconsistency. A performance that indicates ‘the complete opposite’ of performances that came before is by definition proof that Charizard is capable of being massively inconsistent, so once again; thank you for affirming my point ^_^.
Yes by the definition of the word ‘inconsistent’.
That’s exactly how it works. Look up ‘inconsistent’.
I’m putting it at lower end E4 Ace lvl and 3rd respectively which shows that I factor in his entire resume.
He is inconsistent (like a lot of other pokémon) and was portrayed like a beta b**** in the BW121 sequence. Other feats need to be considered as well to make an overall assessment, but at the same time you can’t act like this performance doesn’t exist and claim Charizard to be at some arbitrary unquantifiablly high lvl when that’s blatantly not the case.