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Pokémon Anime Versus Thread v4

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
Leon's Team vs a Team of:
1. Cynthia's Garchomp
2. Steven's Metagross
3. Lance Gyarados/Dragonite
4. Diantha's Garderovoir
5. Alain's Charizard
6. Iris' Haxorus

Choose 3 Gimmicks here

How would you orchestrated such a fight?
Coming back with this one:)
 

TheCrazyMaster

Well-Known Member
Now that the Masters eight tournament is over, who do you think would win?

Iris' Haxorus vs Lance's Dragonite
Leon's Dragapult vs Rillaboom
Leon's Rillaboom vs Ash's Lucario
Alain's Chesnaught vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Chesnaught vs Cynthia's Milotic
Cynthia's Milotic vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Malamar vs Cynthia's Gastrodon
Leon's Cinderace vs Ash's Sirfetch'd
Steven's Aggron vs Leon's Rillaboom
Steven's Cradily vs Leon's Inteleon
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
Now that the Masters eight tournament is over, who do you think would win?

Iris' Haxorus vs Lance's Dragonite
Leon's Dragapult vs Rillaboom
Leon's Rillaboom
vs Ash's Lucario
Alain's Chesnaught vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Chesnaught vs Cynthia's Milotic
Cynthia's Milotic vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Malamar vs Cynthia's Gastrodon
Leon's Cinderace vs Ash's Sirfetch'd
Steven's Aggron vs Leon's Rillaboom
Steven's Cradily vs Leon's Inteleon
Highlighted the winners
 

Krackochu

Well-Known Member
Now that the Masters eight tournament is over, who do you think would win?

Iris' Haxorus vs Lance's Dragonite
Leon's Dragapult vs Rillaboom
Leon's Rillaboom vs Ash's Lucario
Alain's Chesnaught vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Chesnaught vs Cynthia's Milotic
Cynthia's Milotic vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Malamar vs Cynthia's Gastrodon
Leon's Cinderace vs Ash's Sirfetch'd
Steven's Aggron vs Leon's Rillaboom
Steven's Cradily vs Leon's Inteleon
Iris's Haxorus
Leon's rillaboom
Cynthia's milotic
Ash's sirfetch or draw
Tie
Inteleon
 
I saw this on twitter so here we go
XY Ash-Greninja vs JN Greninja
Super hard but I’m going to say JN Greninja because Lucario was able to one shot a GMAX Duraludon that was Raihan’s ace, a better feat than XY AG ever did. And JN Greninja beat the crap out of Lucario.
But this raises the question: XY Ash-Greninja vs JN XY Battle Bond Greninja (aka regular Greninja or Greninja with stat boosts). I say JN XY Battle Bond Greninja because it was able to do all the feats that Ash Greninja could in XY without a transformation or bond phenomenon with Ash.
JN Greninja>JN XY Greninja>Unmastered Ash-Greninja>Mastered Ash-Greninja>Base XY Greninja
 

Ragnarok4

No... STILL NOT ITS OVER !!!
Now that the Masters eight tournament is over, who do you think would win?

Iris' Haxorus vs Lance's Dragonite
Leon's Dragapult vs Rillaboom
Leon's Rillaboom vs Ash's Lucario
Alain's Chesnaught vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Chesnaught vs Cynthia's Milotic
Cynthia's Milotic vs Diantha's Aurorus
Alain's Malamar vs Cynthia's Gastrodon
Leon's Cinderace vs Ash's Sirfetch'd
Steven's Aggron vs Leon's Rillaboom
Steven's Cradily vs Leon's Inteleon
Dragonite
Tie
Rillaboom
Chess
Chess
Tie
Non sense comparison, malamar never had a chance
Cinderace obviusly
Rillaboom obviusly
Inteleon probably
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I think people who say "JN Greninja beat the crap out of Lucario" need to rewatch the episode
What Greninja did do was outspeed it to an insane degree and show it how indisciplined it and it's aura was causing it to rage off in frustration
The whole episode involves Greninja, thanks to Bond phenomenon having a good understanding of it, helping Lucario tune more in with his and Ash's aura and be more disciplined, allowing him to strengthen significantly
Using the beginning of that episode to state JN Greninja is better than Lucario is pretty insane to me, esp when Lucario then went on to have insane feats, one shotting the No. 9th Trainers ace and beating Cynthia's Dynamax Togekiss and Garchomp, far exceeding Greninja
 

Gopu_17

Member
Who will win -

Iris Haxarous vs Ashs Mega Lucario

Ashs Dragonite vs Lance's Dragonite

Ashs base Lucario vs Korrina's Mega lucario
 
Who will win -

Iris Haxarous vs Ashs Mega Lucario

Ashs Dragonite vs Lance's Dragonite

Ashs base Lucario vs Korrina's Mega lucario
Mega Lucario one shots
Ash’s Dragonite
Base Lucario one shots
 

Damerdal

Sunless Space
Not necessarily a simple "vs." match-up, but more so a versus among all the teams.

How I rank the regional teams, based on their current status:


Kanto
: Pikachu/Charizard/Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Snorlax/Kingler (alternatively swap Kingler for Tauros)

Johto: Pikachu/Quilava/Bayleef/Heracross/Noctowl/Donphan

Hoenn: Pikachu/Sceptile/Swellow/Glalie/Corphish/Torkoal

Sinnoh: Pikachu/Infernape/Torterra/Buizel/Gliscor/Gible (alternatively swap Gible for Staraptor)

Unova: Pikachu/Pignite/Leavanny/Palpitoad/Unfezant/Krookodile (alternatively swap Boldore for Unfezant)

Kalos: Pikachu/Ash-Greninja/Talonflame/Hawlucha/Goodra/Noivern

Alola: Pikachu/Incineroar/Lycanroc/Rowlet/Naganadel/Melmetal

Journeys: Pikachu/Lucario/Sirfetch'd/Dracovish/Gengar/Dragonite


1. Journeys - obviously. Ash became the best trainer in the world by using only them. They're literally the champions.


2. Kanto/Orange Islands - The OG bois aged very well. The Gang of Four took down the strongest Frontier Brain. Charizard has fought legendaries, and is held in utmost esteem. Snorlax is an absolute raid boss. Kingler swept a league favorite, and demolished Misty's Poliwhirl in insane fashion. Obviously if Pikachu isn't part of this team and swapped for say, Tauros, then their overall ranking dips a bit. However, even Tauros was not too shabby at all. Narratively, I also think it makes sense that Ash's four most senior Pokemon comprise one of his best teams.


3. Hoenn - This might seem like bias and a very spicy take, but I think the current Advanced squad justifies this position. The unique part of the Hoenn team is that their journey didn't end at the Ever Grande Conference. If this ranking was done solely based on Ash's league conference teams, then the Hoenn team would be below that of Alola, Kalos, and Sinnoh. However, this team became even better during the Battle Frontier. Torkoal brought down Brandon's Registeel to its knees. Swellow and Corphish earned some quality Frontier Brain victories. Grovyle evolving into Sceptile, and subsequently defeating Spenser's Claydol and later Tobias' undefeat Darkrai, is what clears this team above all but Journeys and the Kanto squad. They're so well balanced and stacked. Now if Corphish happens to evolve into Crawdaunt, then that justifies this ranking even further.


4. Alola - Another spicy take, but I think the Alola team was actually this good. In many ways, it resembles the Hoenn team with the sheer balance. Incineroar hasn't battled yet, but we can all assume that it'll be a level-up from Torracat, who was already fairly strong. There's literally an Ultra Beast and Mythical Pokemon on this team. I know there's some debate over the quality of opponents they faced, but Gladion and Kukui aren't pushovers. Kukui in particular is definitely at least a top Frontier Brain/Elite 4-level trainer based on presentation and implication. I think this makes absolute sense, not just based on feat/power consideration but also narratively, that Ash's Alola team would be the best team he's sent to fight in a league conference up to that point. Even if the Manalo Conference didn't warrant Ash pulling out the full stops, he had all those Pokémon on hand.


5. Kalos - This might be a controversial placement given how revered XY Ash is to a large portion of the fandom, but I think the important thing to note is that the Kalos team was the best team Ash had sent to a league conference at that point. People can point to all the powerhouses on the Kalos team, but let's just compare them to the current Hoenn team:

Pikachu cancels out. Swellow > Talonflame, with chip damage left. Glalie > Goodra, with chip damage left. Torkoal (at its ceiling) > Noivern, with chip damage left. Corphish < Hawlucha. Now just one of those chip damages takes out Hawlucha. So now you're left with Sceptile vs Ash-Greninja, who's taken some chip damage. This is the same Sceptile who KO'd an undefeated Darkrai, and while that was a team effort, Darkrai had also healed back some of the damage, so Sceptile still did a lot of work by himself.

Based on posts I've read earlier in this thread and other threads, I guess there's some thought that Ash-Greninja can sweep a lot of Pokemon by himself, but I think that's really underestimating the other Pokémon, especially another ace like Sceptile.

What really hurts the XY team though is that subsequent generations introduced further gimmicks like Z-Moves and Gigantamax. So whatever advantage Greninja had with Bond Evolution is mitigated. I guess you could argue that gimmicks shouldn't be allowed to factor into team rankings, but meh, screw that. Of course Ash would use Mega Evolution, Z-Moves, or Gigantamax with any of his non-Journeys/Alola teams.


6. Sinnoh - Very similar to XY honestly, but this team was the best Ash brought to a league conference at that time. The problem with this team, even worse than XY's, is that Infernape overshadowed everyone else. Torterra suffered the Worf Effect to the maximum degree thanks to its idiotic use of Rock Climb. Staraptor seemed to fade away as DP progressed. Gliscor was very good, and Gible's wonky shape, size, and battling style was Ash's trump card in the Sinnoh League. However, I just think the other teams have more firepower at the end of the day. Infernape can't carry by himself.


7. Johto - Unfortunately, this team got overshadowed in its own region and league conference by the Kanto bois. However, they earned some redemption in Sinnoh with Quilava, Heracross, and Noctowl having some good performances. Donphan is both a Johto/Hoenn Pokemon, but even if it's switched for Totodile, there's still enough quality on this team to edge out Unova's.


8. Unova - Hardy a surprise, but the BW team is in last place. Krookodile was a beast, but just not on the same level as the other aces like Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Greninja, etc. This team was just underpowered, which makes sense as BW Ash experienced a dreadful 'reset' in skill, which was promptly retconned and fixed in XY.
 
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Ragnarok4

No... STILL NOT ITS OVER !!!
Not necessarily a simple "vs." match-up, but more so a versus among all the teams.

How I rank the regional teams, based on their current status:


Kanto
: Pikachu/Charizard/Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Snorlax/Kingler (alternatively swap Kingler for Tauros)

Johto: Pikachu/Quilava/Bayleef/Heracross/Noctowl/Donphan

Hoenn: Pikachu/Sceptile/Swellow/Glalie/Corphish/Torkoal

Sinnoh: Pikachu/Infernape/Torterra/Buizel/Gliscor/Gible (alternatively swap Gible for Staraptor)

Unova: Pikachu/Pignite/Leavanny/Palpitoad/Unfezant/Krookodile (alternatively swap Boldore for Unfezant)

Kalos: Pikachu/Ash-Greninja/Talonflame/Hawlucha/Goodra/Noivern

Alola: Pikachu/Incineroar/Lycanroc/Rowlet/Naganadel/Melmetal

Journeys: Pikachu/Lucario/Sirfetch'd/Dracovish/Gengar/Dragonite


1. Journeys - obviously. Ash became the best trainer in the world by using only them. They're literally the champions.


2. Kanto/Orange Islands - The OG bois aged very well. The Gang of Four took down the strongest Frontier Brain. Charizard has fought legendaries, and is held in utmost esteem. Snorlax is an absolute raid boss. Kingler swept a league favorite, and demolished Misty's Poliwhirl in insane fashion. Obviously if Pikachu isn't part of this team and swapped for say, Tauros, then their overall ranking dips a bit. However, even Tauros was not too shabby at all. Narratively, I also think it makes sense that Ash's four most senior Pokemon comprise one of his best teams.


3. Hoenn - This might seem like bias and a very spicy take, but I think the current Advanced squad justifies this position. The unique part of the Hoenn team is that their journey didn't end at the Ever Grande Conference. If this ranking was done solely based on Ash's league conference teams, then the Hoenn team would be below that of Alola, Kalos, and Sinnoh. However, this team became even better during the Battle Frontier. Torkoal brought down Brandon's Registeel to its knees. Swellow and Corphish earned some quality Frontier Brain victories. Grovyle evolving into Sceptile, and subsequently defeating Spenser's Claydol and later Tobias' undefeat Darkrai, is what clears this team above all but Journeys and the Kanto squad. They're so well balanced and stacked. Now if Corphish happens to evolve into Crawdaunt, then that justifies this ranking even further.


4. Alola - Another spicy take, but I think the Alola team was actually this good. In many ways, it resembles the Hoenn team with the sheer balance. Incineroar hasn't battled yet, but we can all assume that it'll be a level-up from Torracat, who was already fairly strong. There's literally an Ultra Beast and Mythical Pokemon on this team. I know there's some debate over the quality of opponents they faced, but Gladion and Kukui aren't pushovers. Kukui in particular is definitely at least a top Frontier Brain/Elite 4-level trainer based on presentation and implication. I think this makes absolute sense, not just based on feat/power consideration but also narratively, that Ash's Alola team would be the best team he's sent to fight in a league conference up to that point. Even if the Manalo Conference didn't warrant Ash pulling out the full stops, he had all those Pokémon on hand.


5. Kalos - This might be a controversial placement given how revered XY Ash is to a large portion of the fandom, but I think the important thing to note is that the Kalos team was the best team Ash had sent to a league conference at that point. People can point to all the powerhouses on the Kalos team, but let's just compare them to the current Hoenn team:

Pikachu cancels out. Swellow > Talonflame, with chip damage left. Glalie > Goodra, with chip damage left. Torkoal (at its ceiling) > Noivern, with chip damage left. Corphish < Hawlucha. Now just one of those chip damages takes out Hawlucha. So now you're left with Sceptile vs Ash-Greninja, who's taken some chip damage. This is the same Sceptile who KO'd an undefeated Darkrai, and while that was a team effort, Darkrai had also healed back some of the damage, so Sceptile still did a lot of work by himself.

Based on posts I've read earlier in this thread and other threads, I guess there's some thought that Ash-Greninja can sweep a lot of Pokemon by himself, but I think that's really underestimating the other Pokémon, especially another ace like Sceptile.

What really hurts the XY team though is that subsequent generations introduced further gimmicks like Z-Moves and Gigantamax. So whatever advantage Greninja had with Bond Evolution is mitigated. I guess you could argue that gimmicks shouldn't be allowed to factor into team rankings, but meh, screw that. Of course Ash would use Mega Evolution, Z-Moves, or Gigantamax with any of his non-Journeys/Alola teams.


6. Sinnoh - Very similar to XY honestly, but this team was the best Ash brought to a league conference at that time. The problem with this team, even worse than XY's, is that Infernape overshadowed everyone else. Torterra suffered the Worf Effect to the maximum degree thanks to its idiotic use of Rock Climb. Staraptor seemed to fade away as DP progressed. Gliscor was very good, and Gible's wonky shape, size, and battling style was Ash's trump card in the Sinnoh League. However, I just think the other teams have more firepower at the end of the day. Infernape can't carry by himself.


7. Johto - Unfortunately, this team got overshadowed in its own region and league conference by the Kanto bois. However, they earned some redemption in Sinnoh with Quilava, Heracross, and Noctowl having some good performances. Donphan is both a Johto/Hoenn Pokemon, but even if it's switched for Totodile, there's still enough quality on this team to edge out Unova's.


8. Unova - Hardy a surprise, but the BW team is in last place. Krookodile was a beast, but just not on the same level as the other aces like Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Greninja, etc. This team was just underpowered, which makes sense as BW Ash experienced a dreadful 'reset' in skill, which was promptly retconned and fixed in XY.
Alola vs Hoenn

Pikachu = Pikachu
Rowlet < Swellow
Incineroar = Sceptile
Naganadel > Glalie
Lyanroc> Torkoal
Melmetal > Corpish
 

Damerdal

Sunless Space
Alola vs Hoenn

Pikachu = Pikachu
Rowlet < Swellow
Incineroar = Sceptile
Naganadel > Glalie
Lyanroc> Torkoal
Melmetal > Corpish

Pikachu = Pikachu

Rowlet < Swellow

Incineroar < Sceptile (Incineroar is not equal to Sceptile, who literally beat an undefeated Darkrai and did most of the work as Darkrai healed off the previous Pokemon)

Naganadel >/= Glalie (they're on the same tier honestly, as Glalie was shown to be a powerhouse at the Hoenn League)

Lycanroc > Torkoal (however < peak Torkoal who brought a Registeel commanded by the best Frontier Brain to its knees - but average Torkoal is worse)

Melmetal < Corphish (the crab has better wins and feats honestly)
 

Ragnarok4

No... STILL NOT ITS OVER !!!
Pikachu = Pikachu

Rowlet < Swellow

Incineroar < Sceptile (Incineroar is not equal to Sceptile, who literally beat an undefeated Darkrai and did most of the work as Darkrai healed off the previous Pokemon)

Naganadel >/= Glalie (they're on the same tier honestly, as Glalie was shown to be a powerhouse at the Hoenn League)

Lycanroc > Torkoal (however < peak Torkoal who brought a Registeel commanded by the best Frontier Brain to its knees - but average Torkoal is worse)

Melmetal < Corphish (the crab has better wins and feats honestly)
The problem here is that you take into account a Glalie that only shined with Pokémon whose level cannot be determined, such as charizard and a sceptile. We don't know if Sawyer's and Alain's Pokémon are stronger than the Pokémon Glalie defeated and that's why they couldn't win. (Bisharp, Slurpuff, Salamence)

You also take into account a Corpish that after beating Swampert, loses against a Chansey... It doesn't help that he probably can't beat Politoad in the next few episodes.

We also don't know if Kukui's Incineroar is stronger than Darkrai then Incineroar>Sceptile. People overrate Sceptile sometimes. Darkrai only wins cause dark void, he's not even level Ace E4

Flint's infernape (Buizel, Infernape, Pikachu destroyed ) did more than Tobias's Darkrai (Torkoal, Heracross, Gibble and it was damaged)

Knowing that Darkrai is barely Ace E4, it can be inferred that Ash-Greninja could beat Sceptile and some other AG Ash Pokémon. Even so Hoenn Team would win but assuming Torkoal and Glalie can with Goodra and Noivern which seems unlikely to me (You can use the example of Registeel vs Torkoal, but still Noivern defended better against Zapdos)
 

Damerdal

Sunless Space
The problem here is that you take into account a Glalie that only shined with Pokémon whose level cannot be determined, such as charizard and a sceptile. We don't know if Sawyer's and Alain's Pokémon are stronger than the Pokémon Glalie defeated and that's why they couldn't win. (Bisharp, Slurpuff, Salamence)

I mean, Sawyer was a rookie. He was getting beaten fairly easily by everyone when we first meet him. Of course, he experienced Cameronian levels of ludicrous power up with his final team, but regardless, he's not some highly experienced trainer. Glalie defeated Clark's Charizard (type-disadvantage), Katie's (a clearly skilled trainer) Dugtrio and Misdreavus (only losing to Destiny Bond), Morrison's main Pokemon in Metang, and lastly drew against Tyson's strong Sceptile. Regarding the latter, both Pokemon were obviously quite powerful, judging by how insane was that explosion of Ice Beam and Solar Beam. None of these trainers were shown to be incompetent, and they battled with skill and firepower. As Brock said, the Hoenn League had "some of the greatest battles [he'd] ever seen," so these weren't low-level matches.

The same issue also holds true for the Alola team. In fact, as I've seen others in PAD argue, some contest that the Manalo Conference and Kukui weren't the same pedigree of opponents whom Ash had faced at prior leagues. Don't get me wrong, I'm not even agreeing with this take at all, but my point is this same argument also works against the Alola team, regarding the indeterminate levels. What we do know though is that the Hoenn team barely lost to the winner of the most rigorous format league conference ever, and they got even better in the Battle Frontier competing against the Frontier Brains (who are supposed to be close to/on par with the Elite 4).

You also take into account a Corpish that after beating Swampert, loses against a Chansey... It doesn't help that he probably can't beat Politoad in the next few episodes.

That Nurse Joy was an ex-Trainer and obsessed with battles. Corphish is allowed to have losses too. It can have good and bad days, and its peak performance was tanking and winning aginst Frontier Brain Tucker's Swampert and Arcanine alongside Swellow.

Melmetal defeated Empoleon, but lost to Silvally and Incineroar. Moreover, it's not as if in those battles Melmetal showed immense tanking ability or power.

We also don't know if Kukui's Incineroar is stronger than Darkrai then Incineroar>Sceptile. People overrate Sceptile sometimes. Darkrai only wins cause dark void, he's not even level Ace E4

Why is Darkrai "barely/not even Ace E4"? Legendaries are treated in the anime as anywhere from being barely beatable to virtually unstoppable. Darkrai was undefeated in all of Sinnoh. Latios was arguably even more powerful, as it took out Sceptile, who was damaged but still had something left in the tank given how he looked, and easily KO'd Swellow, one of Ash's toughest and tankiest Pokemon ever.

Tobias is such an unknown trainer. We don't know if he had four even stronger legendaries. We don't know if he went ahead and battled the Sinnoh Elite 4 and Cynthia, and even if he did, whether he left and went on to go catch more legendaries. He's the literal anti-DEM, a Player Character with likely six legendaries solely created to stop Ash from winning the Sinnoh League.

Flint's infernape (Buizel, Infernape, Pikachu destroyed ) did more than Tobias's Darkrai (Torkoal, Heracross, Gibble and it was damaged)

I'm confused by this take. Is this supposed to be reasoning for why Darkrai is "barely/not even Ace E4?"

Pikachu is known to have highs-and-lows, with a very low floor due to him being a measly Pikachu species, and an unlimited ceiling. Pikachu pretty much always has his greatest performance in the final battle of a series, but usually isn't as good before then. So while Pikachu did hold off for quite a while against Flint's Infernape, I doubt he was anywhere close to his end-of-region peak form. Keep in mind, this was during the OS-DP era, where the Elite 4 and Champions were pretty much nigh unstoppable.

Ash sent out an anti-Darkrai composition: Torkoal and Sceptile battled legendaries before, Heracross had type-effectiveness against it, and Gible was an unorthodox trump card due to its wonky battling style, size, and the fact that it can use Draco Meteor.


Knowing that Darkrai is barely Ace E4, it can be inferred that Ash-Greninja could beat Sceptile and some other AG Ash Pokémon. Even so Hoenn Team would win but assuming Torkoal and Glalie can with Goodra and Noivern which seems unlikely to me (You can use the example of Registeel vs Torkoal, but still Noivern defended better against Zapdos)

Wait, are we debating Hoenn vs Alola, or Hoenn vs Kalos? I mean, I genuinely think the Hoenn team, especially with access to gimmicks, can beat the Kalos team, and you seem to agree with me?

I haven't stated anywhere that Sceptile defeats Ash-Greninja BTW. However, even if Ash-Greninja does win, it's certainly not going to be a stomp, and the other chip damage that Ash-Greninja would receive from the other Hoenn Pokemon ultimately brings him down.

-----------------------------------

At the end of the day though, it all comes down to plot and narrative. The writers could have Palpitoad OHKO Corphish next week, even if it won't make any sense. They could say the BW team beat the AG team in a practice full battle, and that's that, even if it makes no sense.

Even if the Hoenn team ended up with a higher aggregate average team ranking based on how their individual members rank among Ash's "tier lists", it's the Kanto Gang of Four that defeated Brandon, the Sinnoh team that defeated Paul, the Kalos team that reached the league conference finals, the Alola team that made Ash the Champion, and the Journeys team that made him the #1 in the world. This is why people underrate the Hoenn team so much.
 
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Ragnarok4

No... STILL NOT ITS OVER !!!
I mean, Sawyer was a rookie. He was getting beaten fairly easily by everyone when we first meet him. Of course, he experienced Cameronian levels of ludicrous power up with his final team, but regardless, he's not some highly experienced trainer. Glalie defeated Clark's Charizard (type-disadvantage), Katie's (a clearly skilled trainer) Dugtrio and Misdreavus (only losing to Destiny Bond), Morrison's main Pokemon in Metang, and lastly drew against Tyson's strong Sceptile. Regarding the latter, both Pokemon were obviously quite powerful, judging by how insane was that explosion of Ice Beam and Solar Beam. None of these trainers were shown to be incompetent, and they battled with skill and firepower. As Brock said, the Hoenn League had "some of the greatest battles [he'd] ever seen," so these weren't low-level matches.

The same issue also holds true for the Alola team. In fact, as I've seen others in PAD argue, some contest that the Manalo Conference and Kukui weren't the same pedigree of opponents whom Ash had faced at prior leagues. Don't get me wrong, I'm not even agreeing with this take at all, but my point is this same argument also works against the Alola team, regarding the indeterminate levels. What we do know though is that the Hoenn team barely lost to the winner of the most rigorous format league conference ever, and they got even better in the Battle Frontier competing against the Frontier Brains (who are supposed to be close to/on par with the Elite 4).



That Nurse Joy was an ex-Trainer and obsessed with battles. Corphish is allowed to have losses too. It can have good and bad days, and its peak performance was tanking and winning aginst Frontier Brain Tucker's Swampert and Arcanine alongside Swellow.

Melmetal defeated Empoleon, but lost to Silvally and Incineroar. Moreover, it's not as if in those battles Melmetal showed immense tanking ability or power.



Why is Darkrai "barely/not even Ace E4"? Legendaries are treated in the anime as anywhere from being barely beatable to virtually unstoppable. Darkrai was undefeated in all of Sinnoh. Latios was arguably even more powerful, as it took out Sceptile, who was damaged but still had something left in the tank given how he looked, and easily KO'd Swellow, one of Ash's toughest and tankiest Pokemon ever.

Tobias is such an unknown trainer. We don't know if he had four even stronger legendaries. We don't know if he went ahead and battled the Sinnoh Elite 4 and Cynthia, and even if he did, whether he left and went on to go catch more legendaries. He's the literal anti-DEM, a Player Character with likely six legendaries solely created to stop Ash from winning the Sinnoh League.



I'm confused by this take. Is this supposed to be reasoning for why Darkrai is "barely/not even Ace E4?"

Pikachu is known to have highs-and-lows, with a very low floor due to him being a measly Pikachu species, and an unlimited ceiling. Pikachu pretty much always has his greatest performance in the final battle of a series, but usually isn't as good before then. So while Pikachu did hold off for quite a while against Flint's Infernape, I doubt he was anywhere close to his end-of-region peak form. Keep in mind, this was during the OS-DP era, where the Elite 4 and Champions were pretty much nigh unstoppable.

Ash sent out an anti-Darkrai composition: Torkoal and Sceptile battled legendaries before, Heracross had type-effectiveness against it, and Gible was an unorthodox trump card due to its wonky battling style, size, and the fact that it can use Draco Meteor.




Wait, are we debating Hoenn vs Alola, or Hoenn vs Kalos? I mean, I genuinely think the Hoenn team, especially with access to gimmicks, can beat the Kalos team, and you seem to agree with me?

I haven't stated anywhere that Sceptile defeats Ash-Greninja BTW. However, even if Ash-Greninja does win, it's certainly not going to be a stomp, and the other chip damage that Ash-Greninja would receive from the other Hoenn Pokemon ultimately brings him down.

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At the end of the day though, it all comes down to plot and narrative. The writers could have Palpitoad OHKO Corphish next week, even if it won't make any sense. They could say the BW team beat the AG team in a practice full battle, and that's that, even if it makes no sense.

Even if the Hoenn team ended up with a higher aggregate average team ranking based on how their individual members rank among Ash's "tier lists", it's the Kanto Gang of Four that defeated Brandon, the Sinnoh team that defeated Paul, the Kalos team that reached the league conference finals, the Alola team that made Ash the Champion, and the Journeys team that made him the #1 in the world. This is why people underrate the Hoenn team so much.
Nah, you destroyed every one of my points, I'll take my L, nice analysis tbh
 
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