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Pokémon Sun and Moon - General Discussion Thread

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Nahiri

Selesnya Guild
Sandshrew have historically lived in desert areas. But the frequent eruptions of nearby volcanoes drove the Sandshrew to abandon the desert and migrate to snowy mountains, where they took on this form. Sandshrew’s body changed to adapt to the harsh environment of the snowy mountains.

It is said that Vulpix came to the Alola region together with humans, but the Fox Pokémon moved to the snowy mountain peaks to avoid the normal habitats of other Pokémon, and thus it ended up taking on this form. These Alolan Vulpix live on high mountains that remain covered in snow year-round.

The environment of the Alola region, where strong sunlight pours down all year round, brought about this change in Exeggutor’s form. The people of Alola boast that the Alolan Exeggutor is the true form of Exeggutor.

Darwinian evolution coupled with environmental adaptation.
There is no reason to have Fire Vulpix, Ground Sandshrew, or Psychic Exeggutor on Alola. Literally none at all, and I don't know why it's even brought into question.
 

Sakuraba

Well-Known Member
What about Exeggcute? Can it only evolve into A-Exeggutor? That would be stupid, because that would make regular Exeggcutir unavailable in the game aside from transferring. And it would delete him from competitive scene entirely. That alone implies that variations are just a fancy name for new forms of nostalgic Pokemon.
 

Nahiri

Selesnya Guild
What about Exeggcute? Can it only evolve into A-Exeggutor? That would be stupid, because that would make regular Exeggcutir unavailable in the game aside from transferring. And it would delete him from competitive scene entirely. That alone implies that variations are just a fancy name for new forms of nostalgic Pokemon.


I don't understand what's stupid about it?
You have to get old forms from older games.
The Japanese trailer showed a normal Exeggcute evolving into Alolan Exeggutor.
 

(P.O.K.E.M.O.N)

AshXSerena = Canon
I love the idea of Alola specific typings for regular Pokemon. Not only does it carry gamefreak for the next few generations (in terms of adding different typings to pokemon); but it also opens up a whole idea of re-inventing regular Pokemon. Personally, i really hope for more reveals in this nature for S&M. :)
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
Darwinian evolution coupled with environmental adaptation.
There is no reason to have Fire Vulpix, Ground Sandshrew, or Psychic Exeggutor on Alola. Literally none at all, and I don't know why it's even brought into question.

No one's questioning regular Ninetales, Sandshrew and Exeggutor not being on Alola. It's understandable that they're not. However, it is questionable to suggest Darwinian evolution in a game with creationist lore.

I don't understand what's stupid about it?
You have to get old forms from older games.
The Japanese trailer showed a normal Exeggcute evolving into Alolan Exeggutor.

What's stupid is, if ALL Exeggcute evolve into A-Exeggutor, regardless of whether or not they were transferred and bred, then regular Exeggutor wouldn't be able to compete in tournaments because he wouldn't have the blue "native" pentagon; only A-Exeggutor could compete.
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I don't know if anyone's pointed this out yet, but apparently when Ash fuses with Greninja, he does the same dance that the Sun and Moon trainers do when they activate Z-Moves

http://imgur.com/k14mgjI

Greninja's Ash forme is a Z-Move maybe?

Ash and Greninja don't normally do that though. That was just something they did once to show their synchronicity. Besides, Ash-Greninja seems to be entirely different from Z-Moves. Ones a form change that makes the Pokemon take on the look of its trainer, the other is a super move.

Darwinian evolution coupled with environmental adaptation.
There is no reason to have Fire Vulpix, Ground Sandshrew, or Psychic Exeggutor on Alola. Literally none at all, and I don't know why it's even brought into question.

To be fair, it is possible that not all Vulpix retreated into the mountains or that there was more than one desert with Sandshrew in Alola, and only one of them froze over. This would allow for both normal Vulpix and Sandshrew to coexist with their Alolan variants.

No one's questioning regular Ninetales, Sandshrew and Exeggutor not being on Alola. It's understandable that they're not. However, it is questionable to suggest Darwinian evolution in a game with creationist lore.

I don't see why the creationist part of events could have occurred, kick-starting life, and then Darwinian evolution took over afterwords.

And by the way, Darwinian evolution is already confirmed to exist in Pokemon, as Mew is the ancestor of all (read most) modern Pokemon. The only way for that to work is Darwinian evolution.
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
I don't see why the creationist part of events could have occurred, kick-starting life, and then Darwinian evolution took over afterwords.

I don't see why it can't be either/or . . .

And by the way, Darwinian evolution is already confirmed to exist in Pokemon, as Mew is the ancestor of all (read most) modern Pokemon. The only way for that to work is Darwinian evolution.

It is said Mew possesses the genetic composition of all Pokémon, but it's not confirmed. Scientists are researching whether or not it is the ancestor of all Pokémon. That's what its Dex entries state. Besides, it can't be the ancestor of every Pokémon with Arceus in the picture.
 

Nahiri

Selesnya Guild
I don't see why it can't be either/or . . .



It is said Mew possesses the genetic composition of all Pokémon, but it's not confirmed. Scientists are researching whether or not it is the ancestor of all Pokémon. That's what its Dex entries state. Besides, it can't be the ancestor of every Pokémon with Arceus in the picture.

I mean, I don't know why the Pokemon world has to follow the conventions of a few real-world people.

My aunt's a Mormon and is absolutely sure that God created life. But she also points out that God definitely intended for evolution to happen, that it's part of His design and if He didn't want us here then we wouldn't be, in an evolution sense. It's absolutely fine and dandy and, from a religious standpoint anyway, it makes sense.
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
I mean, I don't know why the Pokemon world has to follow the conventions of a few real-world people.

It's not, it's following the conventions of the actual creationist Pokémon god.

My aunt's a Mormon and is absolutely sure that God created life. But she also points out that God definitely intended for evolution to happen, that it's part of His design and if He didn't want us here then we wouldn't be, in an evolution sense. It's absolutely fine and dandy and, from a religious standpoint anyway, it makes sense.

Not everyone believes the same thing as your aunt. ;)
 

Nahiri

Selesnya Guild
It's not, it's following the conventions of the actual creationist Pokémon god.



Not everyone believes the same thing as your aunt. ;)


I am genuinely aware of this fact, but thank you for pointing it out. :)

But yeah, I don't know why you're so keen on something like adaptability evolutions to be a thing??? Whether or not it's specifically stated, everything was made to fill a niche, even something as broad as the Regional Rodent/Bird/Bug. /shrugs.
But whatever fam, you do you.
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
I am genuinely aware of this fact, but thank you for pointing it out. :)

But yeah, I don't know why you're so keen on something like adaptability evolutions to be a thing??? Whether or not it's specifically stated, everything was made to fill a niche, even something as broad as the Regional Rodent/Bird/Bug. /shrugs.
But whatever fam, you do you.

All I'm saying is that it's open for interpretation. I'm not suggesting it's absolutely one way or another.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I don't see why it can't be either/or . . .

Sure, it could be either/or, but there's not really a reason to think it is.

It is said Mew possesses the genetic composition of all Pokémon, but it's not confirmed. Scientists are researching whether or not it is the ancestor of all Pokémon. That's what its Dex entries state. Besides, it can't be the ancestor of every Pokémon with Arceus in the picture.

But how else would Mew be related with every species of Pokemon if it wasn't a common ancestor? And even if it says its only a theory, why would Game Freak even bother putting that tidbit of information in if it didn't mean anything? Sure there are soem crazy out there Pokedex descriptions, but the ones given to Legendary Pokemon are pretty much universally accurate. As for your comment on Arceus, that's why I put the most in parenthesis, as obviously Mew is not the ancestor of god Pokemon like Arceus or Pokemon from other planets like Deoxys. The all in the Pokedex probably refers to all normal Pokemon.
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
I don't see a reason as to why the normal forms can't be found in Alola. I think it would be a good idea for both forms to be available, it brings more life and diversity into the picture and gives off the Darwinian feel even more so than just having the Alolamons in.
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
Sure, it could be either/or, but there's not really a reason to think it is.

But at the same time, there's not really a reason to think it's not. It's based on one's conscience; it's open to interpretation, that's all I'm saying.

But how else would Mew be related with every species of Pokemon if it wasn't a common ancestor? And even if it says its only a theory, why would Game Freak even bother putting that tidbit of information in if it didn't mean anything? Sure there are soem crazy out there Pokedex descriptions, but the ones given to Legendary Pokemon are pretty much universally accurate. As for your comment on Arceus, that's why I put the most in parenthesis, as obviously Mew is not the ancestor of god Pokemon like Arceus or Pokemon from other planets like Deoxys. The all in the Pokedex probably refers to all normal Pokemon.

But it doesn't refer to normal Pokémon, it specifically mentions, "all Pokémon." Even then, the Poké Dex isn't entirely accurate, and even when it is, it states things as facts, not as assumptions by scientists.

I don't see a reason as to why the normal forms can't be found in Alola. I think it would be a good idea for both forms to be available, it brings more life and diversity into the picture and gives off the Darwinian feel even more so than just having the Alolamons in.

Wouldn't it have a more Darwinian feel if only the A-forms were available? It would show they adapted to this specific region and no other (thus far).
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
But at the same time, there's not really a reason to think it's not. It's based on one's conscience; it's open to interpretation, that's all I'm saying.

My point is that you originally said that it is questionable to suggest Darwinian evolution because Pokemon is a creationist world. All I was trying to say is that one does not exclude the other.

But it doesn't refer to normal Pokémon, it specifically mentions, "all Pokémon." Even then, the Poké Dex isn't entirely accurate, and even when it is, it states things as facts, not as assumptions by scientists.

And obviously it can't literally mean all Pokemon. I don't think it's that hard to believe that the writer of the dex entry was generalizing when they wrote all. Also, how would scientist even know the genetic makeup of god/alien Pokemon? They wouldn't, so all could easily mean all known. And once again, why would Game Freak even bother putting that dex entry in the game in first place if it was a throwaway? If your saying it's just flavor text that means nothing, the same could be said about Arceus.
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
My point is that you originally said that it is questionable to suggest Darwinian evolution because Pokemon is a creationist world. All I was trying to say is that one does not exclude the other.

I understand. I'm not really disagreeing. All I've been trying to say is that there is no clear cut answer. You can believe it's evolutionist or creationist in nature without fault.

And obviously it can't literally mean all Pokemon. I don't think it's that hard to believe that the writer of the dex entry was generalizing when they wrote all.

Why not? If it is able to utilize any move (in lore), then why can't it mean all Pokémon?

Also, how would scientist even know the genetic makeup of god/alien Pokemon?

Considering they've looked at Mew's hairs through a microscope, they could know its genetic makeup, or they're just assuming so because it can learn every move.

And once again, why would Game Freak even bother putting that dex entry in the game in first place if it was a throwaway? If your saying it's just flavor text that means nothing, the same could be said about Arceus.

You're the one who stated, "I don't think it's that hard to believe that the writer of the dex entry was generalizing when they wrote all," so why is it hard to believe the Dex contradicts itself and is fallible?
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Why not? If it is able to utilize any move (in lore), then why can't it mean all Pokémon?

Because there's literally no way to reconcile Arceus and Mew otherwise. Either one of them has entirely inaccurate lore, or we just need to slightly tweak our understanding of Mew's lore.

Considering they've looked at Mew's hairs through a microscope, they could know its genetic makeup, or they're just assuming so because it can learn every move.

When I said that, I meant that they wouldn't know the genetic make-up of Arceus or Deoxys, so they would have no way of knowing if Mew's DNA is related to theirs or not.

You're the one who stated, "I don't think it's that hard to believe that the writer of the dex entry was generalizing when they wrote all," so why is it hard to believe the Dex contradicts itself and is fallible?

My mistake for being confusing, but that's not what I meant. In the first instance, there is reason to believe that there is a generalization going on, and if the entry is supposed to have any truth to it, then it needs to have the generalization to make it work. What I meant to say with the comment about Game Freak's intent is more thinking about the mentality of Game Freak when creating Mew. Mew is an extremely important Pokemon to the franchise, perhaps the most important after Pikachu and the Kanto Starters. Game Freak may be using the words "it is theorized" when they're writing the description, but why would they even suggest the possibility in the first place if it was just some random throwaway line that means nothing in the end, especially when this line of text has not only a major impact on a major Pokemon, but a major impact on the entire world that they've built.
 

cmats4020

Well-Known Member
Because there's literally no way to reconcile Arceus and Mew otherwise. Either one of them has entirely inaccurate lore, or we just need to slightly tweak our understanding of Mew's lore.

Or just leave it as a mystery ;) . But in all seriousness, this is why I don't trust the Dex with stuff. That and Garchomp still can't learn Fly . . .

When I said that, I meant that they wouldn't know the genetic make-up of Arceus or Deoxys, so they would have no way of knowing if Mew's DNA is related to theirs or not.

Ah, I see. Well, to be fair, Mew was the only legendary at the time the Dex's entry was even written. I doubt the writer thought this through.

My mistake for being confusing, but that's not what I meant. In the first instance, there is reason to believe that there is a generalization going on, and if the entry is supposed to have any truth to it, then it needs to have the generalization to make it work. What I meant to say with the comment about Game Freak's intent is more thinking about the mentality of Game Freak when creating Mew. Mew is an extremely important Pokemon to the franchise, perhaps the most important after Pikachu and the Kanto Starters. Game Freak may be using the words "it is theorized" when they're writing the description, but why would they even suggest the possibility in the first place if it was just some random throwaway line that means nothing in the end, especially when this line of text has not only a major impact on a major Pokemon, but a major impact on the entire world that they've built.

For fluff. Either it's accurate or it's not, but when the Dex says something about a legendary or mythical Pokémon, it more than likely will state it as fact rather than assumption. Mew may have the genetic code for all Pokémon, and very-well could be the ancestor to every Pokémon (aside from Arceus), but we'll never know for certain. The fact that the entry is outdated with the revelation of a god Pokémon makes its plausibility questionable in the end.
 

Hauke_von_Arding

Well-Known Member
It is said Mew possesses the genetic composition of all Pokémon, but it's not confirmed. Scientists are researching whether or not it is the ancestor of all Pokémon. That's what its Dex entries state. Besides, it can't be the ancestor of every Pokémon with Arceus in the picture.

I doN't see the problem.

Arceus = God
Mew = Eve

All normal non-god Pokemon still can be descedants from Mew.
 
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