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Pokémon Sun & Moon Discovery Discussion Thread [Contains Story Spoilers]

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Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
You mix up archers with cowboys, which had to be fast to shoot someone. An archer uses stealth and strikes without getting noticed. Once he is found out the archer mostly has to move spots and start hiding again. Also speed is irrelevant, because he'd never be in face-to-face combat.
Game-wise it strikes me rather to have a high critical hit ratio, some priority moves that circumvent protect/detect/substitute. No speed needed then, but I'm reaching here and this is basically my wishful thinking.

Eh, this is true in some RPGs but definitely not "pretty much every." In Disgaea Archers have bad Speed Growth but good accuracy and attack growth. Final Fantasy Tactics archers have the same speed, movement, and evasion rates as Knights. It's all over the place in the Fire Emblem series, some have Speed the second fastest growth rate for snipers after skill and some have it as worse than attack. And while it isn't an archer, compare to the X-Com series where snipers have terrible movement rates because they can't move and shoot in the same turn (without perks).

Really the strange thing about Decidueye is the high defenses. Not familiar with high defenses for basically any sniper in any game.


I'm not talking about the archer's moving speed, i'm talking about the attacking speed. Not only the archer's attacking speed, but also the arrow's which is supposed to be fast. The archer needs to be fast in order to strike before being discovered and the arrow needs to be fast in order to strike the target before the target moves himself from the perfect spot.

The fact that archers moved from place once they were discovered only makes the fact that Decidueye is going to attack after the opponent attacks him even more weird.
 
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Huckleberry

Poison Trainer
I'm not talking about moving speed, i'm talking about attacking speed. He still has to be fast in order to shoot before being discovered or before the target moves himself from the perfect spot.

You don't have to be fast if you're relying on stealth. This is one of the things I don't like about many RPG archery classes. An archery class should not be about attack speed. Combat archery is, much like modern sniping, about lining up that one killing blow before your opponent has a change to close the distance between you. Shooting fast is fine, but it's also imprecise. And since we know that Decidueye has a stealth focus already, it makes more sense for it to be the type of archer that takes its time to line up a precise shot rather than just trying to shoot first and hope.
 

Anthea

Well-Known Member
Where did that rumour come from? Part of me would love that idea, but then part of me hates the idea of being able to go to these cities but not being able to go any further because of some silly reason, like a blackout or construction.

SomeOne on 4chan actually has the game and will give us a update in a few hours
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
You don't have to be fast if you're relying on stealth. This is one of the things I don't like about many RPG archery classes. An archery class should not be about attack speed. Combat archery is, much like modern sniping, about lining up that one killing blow before your opponent has a change to close the distance between you. Shooting fast is fine, but it's also imprecise. And since we know that Decidueye has a stealth focus already, it makes more sense for it to be the type of archer that takes its time to line up a precise shot rather than just trying to shoot first and hope.

You can have both agility and precision. Modern days snipers are able to aim for the head with precision in a matter of seconds.
 
SomeOne on 4chan actually has the game and will give us a update in a few hours

On the datamine thread? Can we please create a new thread for this? I'm here for aunknown things about datamining, not someone playing through and giving us the plot on a silver plate. I love the current conversations, but I don't want the plot to be said without me experiencing it first.
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
On the datamine thread? Can we please create a new thread for this? I'm here for aunknown things about datamining, not someone playing through and giving us the plot on a silver plate. I love the current conversations, but I don't want the plot to be said without me experiencing it first.

I guess it kinda goes hand in hand as the datamine is pretty much just spoilers and so is someone getting the game early and leaking info.
 
I guess it kinda goes hand in hand as the datamine is pretty much just spoilers and so is someone getting the game early and leaking info.

Idk. I just don't think someone playing the game should be discussed in a thread about what people are finding via hacking. I wanted this thread for extra hints, not for the whole game.
 

Sakuraba

Well-Known Member
Archer's are meant to be silent and hidden, so why would someone who can't see you attack you? Stealth isn't always quick, especially in an archer's case.

I mean, generally, RPGs Archer are supposed to be nimble. Not really agile. You know, being able to change position without being caught since you have low defenses. I've never seen an Archer tank, but it's an idea.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
I mean, generally, RPGs Archer are supposed to be nimble. Not really agile. You know, being able to change position without being caught since you have low defenses. I've never seen an Archer tank, but it's an idea.

If he is not a tanker and he has to change position after being caught, then it makes no sense for Decidueye, an archer, to attack the opponent AFTER the opponent has attacked him.
You have to remember that speed in this game means being able to attack before someone can attack you.
 
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glacialcat

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that the defenses of Decidueye are meant to represent the positional advantage that archers have. In any game with archers or snipers they usually have terrible defenses. But they're almost always one of your last units to die. This is because of their ability to keep their distance and attack from afar. At least to me it seems that GameFreak has recognized that the battle system of Pokemon does not have any way to replicate this sort of mechanic (Weak defenses but able to avoid damage through positioning) and instead simply made Decidueye have strong defenses.
 

Sakuraba

Well-Known Member
If he is not a tanker and he has to change position after being caught, then it makes no sense for Decidueye, an archer, to attack the opponent AFTER the opponent has attacked him.
You have to remember that speed in this game also means being able to attack before being attacked.

I know. That's why I'm confused as to why Rowlet and Dartrix are so slow. They are flying for crying out loud.
 

Yorcko

『 S α d β ο γ 』
Implying Laser Focus is a second signature for Decidueye, it being able to tank would be needed for a critical shot on a next turn.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that the defenses of Decidueye are meant to represent the positional advantage that archers have. In any game with archers or snipers they usually have terrible defenses. But they're almost always one of your last units to die. This is because of their ability to keep their distance and attack from afar. At least to me it seems that GameFreak has recognized that the battle system of Pokemon does not have any way to replicate this sort of mechanic (Weak defenses but able to avoid damage through positioning) and instead simply made Decidueye have strong defenses.

He still isn't going to be good defensively. He is going to be weak against 5 types: fire, flying, ice, dark and ghost Most of these types are extremely common. Regarding the stats, 95 def/sp. def is good but nothing too special.
 
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Wulava

danger chili pepper
Staff member
Moderator
On the datamine thread? Can we please create a new thread for this? I'm here for aunknown things about datamining, not someone playing through and giving us the plot on a silver plate. I love the current conversations, but I don't want the plot to be said without me experiencing it first.

You are in a SPOILER-HEAVY thread. Everything is spoiled here.
There is no difference between datamined info and those being leaked from actual playthrough since both information are spoilers.

There is no need for a separate thread.
Thread has been renamed to SPOILERS THREAD.
 

goodpeople25

Well-Known Member
Eh, this is true in some RPGs but definitely not "pretty much every." In Disgaea Archers have bad Speed Growth but good accuracy and attack growth. Final Fantasy Tactics archers have the same speed, movement, and evasion rates as Knights. It's all over the place in the Fire Emblem series, some have Speed the second fastest growth rate for snipers after skill and some have it as worse than attack. And while it isn't an archer, compare to the X-Com series where snipers have terrible movement rates because they can't move and shoot in the same turn (without perks).

Really the strange thing about Decidueye is the high defenses. Not familiar with high defenses for basically any sniper in any game.
The fire emblem archer/sniper class definitely has the same basic move though, which stat(s) is connected to pokemon speed is tricky. On defence, a couple iterations of sniper have pretty good defence (and a couple well known as strong sniper characters have good defense as well) and on res (sp defense) the fates thief class, the bow using outlaw has great res (though that could be the thief side) tied for 2nd best for it's main promotion path. (Not counting the purposely OP enemy only classes)

Back to stats meaning different things speed is both offensive and defensive in fire emblem, boosting avoid. That's closer to evasion but I could see an argument of it tranlating to defences.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
He still isn't going to be good defensively. He is going to be weak against 7 types: bug, fire, flying, ice, poison, dark and ghost. At least 4 of these types are extremely common. Regarding the stats, 95 def/sp. def is good but nothing too special.

Ghost resists Poison and Bug. Decidueye is not weak to those. It has only 5 weaknesses. Along with 4 resistances and two immunities.

Plus I was not making a comment on its competitive viability. I was explaining why they likely chose to make a sniper defensive.
 

Gohankuten

Well-Known Member
He still isn't going to be good defensively. He is going to be weak against 7 types: bug, fire, flying, ice, poison, dark and ghost. At least 4 of these types are extremely common. Regarding the stats, 95 def/sp. def is good but nothing too special.

Ghost resists Poison and Bug so a Grass/Ghost only has 5 weaknesses though admittedly those 5 weaknesses are all fairly common attack types so not great for a defensive mon to be weak to.

Edit: Greninja'd
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Ghost resists Poison and Bug. Decidueye is not weak to those. It has only 5 weaknesses. Along with 4 resistances and two immunities.

Plus I was not making a comment on its competitive viability. I was explaining why they likely chose to make a sniper defensive.
Yeah, i edited that out a few seconds later after i posted it.
"only 5 weaknesses" only? having 5 weaknesses is a lot, especially when most of those weaknesses are extremely common attacks.

That is the thing, he is not a defensive sniper. 95 def is good if you compare it to a pikachu, but there are pokemon with far more better defenses than that. He isn't agile and he isn't bulky, he is mediocre.
 
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