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Pokémon Sun & Moon Discovery Discussion Thread [Contains Story Spoilers]

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JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
Anyway, were there also hidden abilities in the datamine? if it is can somebody tell me which ones?

Nope, all info in regard to Abilities, Moves, stats, etc. not found in the demo was scrubbed and replaced with Pikachu's specs and Pound. In other words, it shows everything as having Static. Sorry, I really wish we knew :|
 

goodpeople25

Well-Known Member
I would be shocked if it's not. The heel wrestler idea does not fit the honorable, heroic themes of the Fighting type. Here's to the second Dark type starter! Huzzah!
While there are heroic honarable themes in fighting types, not all of them have them. And Dark type isn't as contradictory with fighting type as it might first appear, there's the toxicroak line which learns alot of dark moves (and it's one fighting move, revenge I think has dark elements depending on the Pokemon) a couple dark/fighting lines and the wrestlers we have seem to have a move or two that seems to point to the Heel thing, (like hawlucha learning fling, do faces normally fling objects at thier opponents? If they do I apologize not that well versed in wrestling let alone hawlucha's type)

I think the more valid argument is the sheer degree of heelness, over the "wrestler and strength" that seems to be the main fighting thing but that means the fighting type is still there. And having "3" types is a tricky thing to predict.
 

Yce288

Grass type FTW
Charizard isnt part of the Alolan Dex, i wonder if it means its Pokeride will be obtainable post-game.
 

marumaruko

Ghost Trainer
While there are heroic honarable themes in fighting types, not all of them have them. And Dark type isn't as contradictory with fighting type as it might first appear, there's the toxicroak line which learns alot of dark moves (and it's one fighting move, revenge I think has dark elements depending on the Pokemon) a couple dark/fighting lines and the wrestlers we have seem to have a move or two that seems to point to the Heel thing, (like hawlucha learning fling, do faces normally fling objects at thier opponents? If they do I apologize not that well versed in wrestling let alone hawlucha's type)

I think the more valid argument is the sheer degree of heelness, over the "wrestler and strength" that seems to be the main fighting thing but that means the fighting type is still there. And having "3" types is a tricky thing to predict.

Yeah, this.
It's probably going to be Fire/Fighting.
Preparing for the next fan related meltdown already.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
While there are heroic honarable themes in fighting types, not all of them have them. And Dark type isn't as contradictory with fighting type as it might first appear, there's the toxicroak line which learns alot of dark moves (and it's one fighting move, revenge I think has dark elements depending on the Pokemon) a couple dark/fighting lines and the wrestlers we have seem to have a move or two that seems to point to the Heel thing, (like hawlucha learning fling, do faces normally fling objects at thier opponents? If they do I apologize not that well versed in wrestling let alone hawlucha's type)

I think the more valid argument is the sheer degree of heelness, over the "wrestler and strength" that seems to be the main fighting thing but that means the fighting type is still there. And having "3" types is a tricky thing to predict.

So? Chesnaught learns Fling, and it is expressly stated as protecting other Mons. The ability to throw things does not make one evil.

But really, I can see it going either way, but Dark is more likely in my opinion. I see it as a Dark-Type that can run some Fighting moves, and besides, GF has already given us 3 Fire/Fighting Starters that fill 3 different niches. I doubt they'd give us one that would be so redundant, since it appears to be a super speedy sort like Infernape.
 
While there are heroic honarable themes in fighting types, not all of them have them. And Dark type isn't as contradictory with fighting type as it might first appear, there's the toxicroak line which learns alot of dark moves (and it's one fighting move, revenge I think has dark elements depending on the Pokemon) a couple dark/fighting lines and the wrestlers we have seem to have a move or two that seems to point to the Heel thing, (like hawlucha learning fling, do faces normally fling objects at thier opponents? If they do I apologize not that well versed in wrestling let alone hawlucha's type)

I think the more valid argument is the sheer degree of heelness, over the "wrestler and strength" that seems to be the main fighting thing but that means the fighting type is still there. And having "3" types is a tricky thing to predict.

With wrestlers, you have what is known as a "face" and a "heel". Faces traditionally wear more primary and brighter colors, while heels wear more secondary and darker colors. Hawlucha is a perfect example of this. With its red, white, orange, and green, it looks like a Mexican wrestler (those colors are the Mexican flag), while the addition of purple and black, makes Hawlucha look more like a heel. The face is the "good guy", the heel is the "bad guy".

However...Heels can do "heroic" things, they just do them in more unconventional methods or are a "bad guy" taking out other bad guys. Scrafty is a street fighter, hence why its Dark/Fighting. Scrafty will do whatever it takes to win, there are no rules except survive. If you get taken out because of a sand attack, then that's your own fault. Pangoro on the other hand, is based on the "Bancho", which is a Japanese delinquent. The Bancho was basically a troublemaker with a sense of honor. The Bancho never hurt the weak or those that couldn't defend themselves. They would cause some trouble themselves, but mostly stop other troublemakers.

But to bring this back to Litten 3. Seeing that it's a starter, Fire/Dark can work in the same vein that Water/Dark worked for Greninja last gen. There are elements of fighting present, but the main theme is that Litten is "dirty", willing to do whatever it takes to win.
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
With wrestlers, you have what is known as a "face" and a "heel". Faces traditionally wear more primary and brighter colors, while heels wear more secondary and darker colors. Hawlucha is a perfect example of this. With its red, white, orange, and green, it looks like a Mexican wrestler (those colors are the Mexican flag), while the addition of purple and black, makes Hawlucha look more like a heel. The face is the "good guy", the heel is the "bad guy".

However...Heels can do "heroic" things, they just do them in more unconventional methods or are a "bad guy" taking out other bad guys. Scrafty is a street fighter, hence why its Dark/Fighting. Scrafty will do whatever it takes to win, there are no rules except survive. If you get taken out because of a sand attack, then that's your own fault. Pangoro on the other hand, is based on the "Bancho", which is a Japanese delinquent. The Bancho was basically a troublemaker with a sense of honor. The Bancho never hurt the weak or those that couldn't defend themselves. They would cause some trouble themselves, but mostly stop other troublemakers.

But to bring this back to Litten 3. Seeing that it's a starter, Fire/Dark can work in the same vein that Water/Dark worked for Greninja last gen. There are elements of fighting present, but the main theme is that Litten is "dirty", willing to do whatever it takes to win.

Yeah, this.
It's probably going to be Fire/Dark.
Not preparing for the next fan related meltdown.
 

Huckleberry

Poison Trainer
So? Chesnaught learns Fling, and it is expressly stated as protecting other Mons. The ability to throw things does not make one evil.

Right. Access to coverage moves is not indicative of typing.

Dark was a poor translation for the type. Wicked or Villain or something to that effect would better describe to western culture what the Evil type means in Japan. They are pokemon who utilise dirty fighting, cheap tricks, manipulation or deception. The don't fight honorably, in other words. This is why fighting is one of their weaknesses, because fighting types mostly follow the martial arts, the honorable fighting styles heroes use to defeat villains.

If the heel wrestler ends up fighting typed, it will only show that typing doesn't mean anything. Heel wrestlers are villains that use cheap tricks. They are the definition of Dark type.
 

Ver-mont

Well-Known Member
Right. Access to coverage moves is not indicative of typing.

Dark was a poor translation for the type. Wicked or Villain or something to that effect would better describe to western culture what the Evil type means in Japan. They are pokemon who utilise dirty fighting, cheap tricks, manipulation or deception. The don't fight honorably, in other words. This is why fighting is one of their weaknesses, because fighting types mostly follow the martial arts, the honorable fighting styles heroes use to defeat villains.

If the heel wrestler ends up fighting typed, it will only show that typing doesn't mean anything. Heel wrestlers are villains that use cheap tricks. They are the definition of Dark type.

"Dark" wasn't the best option because many people tend to think it's about darkness, shadows and so on, when it's actually not.

I do think, however, that the original "Evil" is a bit too radical.

(I think the Spanish translation calls it the "Sinister" type. That actually fits the bill.)
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
To be honest, I don't like the "Evil type" name that they get in the Japanese version either, as it implies the Dark type Pokémon are evil creatures when in reality they're usually just dirty fighters at best, misunderstood at worst (and it goes against the whole "Pokémon aren't evil!" bit that they sometimes push). Dark does give that implication of them being manipulative creatures, it's just that the second connotation (as in, Dark as in the night or lack of light) sometimes has people go in the wrong direction.

I do agree that something like 'sinister' would be a better term, as while it wouldn't fully encompass what every Pokémon personality is within the grouping, it still would describe the typing without completely saying they're 'evil' creatures or having a second definition that would lead to confusion.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
To be honest, I don't like the "Evil type" name that they get in the Japanese version either, as it implies the Dark type Pokémon are evil creatures when in reality they're usually just dirty fighters at best, misunderstood at worst (and it goes against the whole "Pokémon aren't evil!" bit that they sometimes push). Dark does give that implication of them being manipulative creatures, it's just that the second connotation (as in, Dark as in the night or lack of light) sometimes has people go in the wrong direction.

I do agree that something like 'sinister' would be a better term, as while it wouldn't fully encompass what every Pokémon personality is within the grouping, it still would describe the typing without completely saying they're 'evil' creatures or having a second definition that would lead to confusion.

You should read the japanese meanings of Dark moves, they sound pretty evil-ish if not bad guy-ish.
 

Huckleberry

Poison Trainer
To be honest, I don't like the "Evil type" name that they get in the Japanese version either, as it implies the Dark type Pokémon are evil creatures when in reality they're usually just dirty fighters at best, misunderstood at worst (and it goes against the whole "Pokémon aren't evil!" bit that they sometimes push). Dark does give that implication of them being manipulative creatures, it's just that the second connotation (as in, Dark as in the night or lack of light) sometimes has people go in the wrong direction.

I do agree that something like 'sinister' would be a better term, as while it wouldn't fully encompass what every Pokémon personality is within the grouping, it still would describe the typing without completely saying they're 'evil' creatures or having a second definition that would lead to confusion.

Actually, as I mentioned, I think it's a cultural thing. What we are translating as Evil doesn't carry the same connotations in Japan as we attribute to it in western culture. Dark is perfectly fitting, it's just that many people interpret it as the wrong definition of dark. I think Fighting was a bit of a poor choice even, since all pokemon are obviously fighting. That's what we, as trainers, do with them. Martial would have been a better word, imo.

To get us back on topic, however, I'm really hoping that Litten and one of the unrevealed bugs, either the diving bell, bacteriophage spider or Wimpod's evo, ends up Dark type. I've wanted a Dark/Bug for a long time and either of them would make a great example of that typing, I think. I wouldn't be upset if the crown of thorns ended up Dark type, but I think there are other types that are a little more likely. I'm also really curious about the anchor. Steel seems a given, but it could have a number of secondary types that would be interesting.
 

goodpeople25

Well-Known Member
So? Chesnaught learns Fling, and it is expressly stated as protecting other Mons. The ability to throw things does not make one evil.

But really, I can see it going either way, but Dark is more likely in my opinion. I see it as a Dark-Type that can run some Fighting moves, and besides, GF has already given us 3 Fire/Fighting Starters that fill 3 different niches. I doubt they'd give us one that would be so redundant, since it appears to be a super speedy sort like Infernape.
Of course not, just as fighting typed pokemon/moves aren't all honourable and heroic all dark types pokemon/moves aren't evil. Fling isn't evil but on a wrestler as a lvl up move that seems heelish (and as pointed out his shiny colouring adds to that) I'm trying to argue against stuff like that (fling= evil) here, odds are it's an issue with my language if it appears I'm trying to argue using them. I guess what I' saying is that there are heel elements to be found in pokemon other than Liften

And yeah thinking fire/dark being more likely is perfectly valid (and I kinda envy bieng able to think that if it does end up fire/dark). But the fighting type elements are there and I don't think it's cancelled out by the dark type elements (and amounts of those elements can be seen on other fighting type pokemon) so to me it is just a matter of degrees and Imo that becomes alot more about opinions and I personally am not going to try to call it with that much baggage. I personally would much prefer fire/dark with a collection of lvl up fighting type moves to fire/fighting with lvl up dark typed moves but that's exactly why I'm not going to speculate on what's more likely.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
You should read the japanese meanings of Dark moves, they sound pretty evil-ish if not bad guy-ish.

Some of them are pretty dark, but not all of them, and it doesn't negate the fact that most Dark types aren't necessarily 'evil' in nature. Like I said, I think sinister fits the typing much better then either name since it fits what they do the best: not being above using cheap tactics to get a win, but not necessarily being outright cruel and malicious creatures.

Actually, as I mentioned, I think it's a cultural thing. What we are translating as Evil doesn't carry the same connotations in Japan as we attribute to it in western culture. Dark is perfectly fitting, it's just that many people interpret it as the wrong definition of dark. I think Fighting was a bit of a poor choice even, since all pokemon are obviously fighting. That's what we, as trainers, do with them. Martial would have been a better word, imo.

To get us back on topic, however, I'm really hoping that Litten and one of the unrevealed bugs, either the diving bell, bacteriophage spider or Wimpod's evo, ends up Dark type. I've wanted a Dark/Bug for a long time and either of them would make a great example of that typing, I think. I wouldn't be upset if the crown of thorns ended up Dark type, but I think there are other types that are a little more likely. I'm also really curious about the anchor. Steel seems a given, but it could have a number of secondary types that would be interesting.

It's definitely possible as I won't pretend to be an expert on Japanese culture, so I could be missing something that makes the connotation of the name softer then what's being implied at first glance.

But anyway, the Bacteriophage I could easily see it being the typing as well, especially if it is a virus as characterization-wise that's perfect for a creature that uses the cells of others to reproduce itself.
 
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dsharks

New Member
I'm down for a legendary with pre-evos, but why two of them? I feel like, if they're going to break their long-standing tradition of not having legendaries evolve, it will probably be a big important climactic moment when it does so. The player will not have control over when it happens. Meaning, for example, they wouldn't make it evolve by level, because if they did, someone could force the climax to happen early by grinding a lot. so if it evolves at all, it will be triggered by a plot event, but it seems weird to me that they'd force it to happen twice. I can imagine a moment in a plot where one weak protolegendary has to evolve into a big strong legendary to surpass some challenge. It's extra-climactic, because it's never happened in the history of Pokemon. But, I can't really imagine a moment where one weak protolegendary has to evolve into another slightly-less-weak protolegendary to advance the story. And then, later, the legendary evolves again, and they've ruined the extra punch the final evolution will have by already demonstrating a legendary evolution.

Evolving legendaries also causes logistical problems. Like I mentioned, they're obviously not going to evolve by any means that the player has control over, or else they can't actually be related to the plot. It has to evolve at a specific plot event. But, they're in the Pokedex, meaning you can actually own them. If you have starmarble on your team and actively worked to train it, it's going to be higher-level than if you kept it in the box the whole time. But, Solgaleo and Lunala are going to have different movesets. If you leveled your starmarble up, you've passed over levels where Solgaleo and Lunala could have learned new moves. When you get to the plot event where it's time for starmarble to evolve into whichever legendary is in your game, are you worse off in the long run than the person who kept their starmarble in the box as much as possible and never let it see combat? On the other hand, is the player who kept their starmarble in the box undercutting the climactic punch of whatever confrontation comes after the evolution occurs, because their Solgaleo/Lunala is way lower level than the rest of their team? Or, there's the possibility that their levels are set to a specific number when they evolve, but then doesn't that undercut and invalidate all the work the player who trained their starmarble put into raising it?

It seems more likely to me that they'd be just different Pokemon which are thematically related to one another, but not actually evolutionary relatives. Like, the poot is the legendary responsible for the power of the moon in Pokemon Sun, and the starmarble is the legendary responsible for the power of the sun in Pokemon Moon. They're important cosmically, but Solgaleo and Lunala overshadow their powers in their respective games. Hence, my theory is that Pokemon Sun players get the first one in both the [poot-starmarble] and [Solgaleo-Lunala] pairs, and Moon players get the second one in each pair. Hence, the demo, which is Sun version, shows the poot, but not the starmarble. Poot and Lunala are still related by virtue of overseeing the same cosmic force, just like starmarble and Solgaleo, but it explains why the order is the way it is in the Pokedex.
 
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JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
But anyway, the Bacteriophage I could easily see it being the typing as well, especially if it is a virus as characterization-wise that's perfect for a creature that uses the cells of others to reproduce itself.

I hate to break it to you, but that is a diving bell spider. Here's a picture for reference:

18dykya83q9m0jpg.jpg


I am pro-bacteriophage Mon, though. I designed a bacteriophage line, actually, that was Poison/Dark.
 

TyLogic

Well-Known Member
I heard that almost every spider can make air bubbles underwater. Is that true?
 
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