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Pokémon the Series XY | Pokémon the Series XY&Z

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
For as much of a hard time XY's Ash is given around here I really do feel like a saga like this was needed for him. Just a saga where he's allowed to seriously be a trainer and focus hard on his own goals, maybe they hyper focused on that aspect a little harder then needed and his other traits were downplayed a bit (not gone, just downplayed), not to mention getting the highest amount of "cool Ash imagery" in one saga which im particuarly grateful for. And hey, the Greninja arc was pretty good at least

At the end of the day I guess he'll be remembered more fondly then BW Ash but the praise ends there lmao
Agreed. If this was the end of his story then less people would complain probably
 

KungFuMaster

KungFu Zen Mode
Look son, another Toxic XYZ thread. Seriously the amount of hate it receives is huge. I see why people complain a lot about Serena, Alain, The League, Ash himself, TRio, Goodra, Noivern, more Pokémons who had too less focus etc...

To be totally honest, What is the recipe for a perfect searies? Answer IMO: NONE. Every serie is not perfect, not because it had too many flaws, it's because peoples opinions are different.
I see people loving XYZ from their heart and people hating it as the devil. We all have opinions and we should respect eachother and not try to convince someone else that XYZ was great or terrible, that's just not right.

This is and discussion thread, but it isn't a XYZ bash thread.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Look son, another Toxic XYZ thread. Seriously the amount of hate it receives is huge. I see why people complain a lot about Serena, Alain, The League, Ash himself, TRio, Goodra, Noivern, more Pokémons who had too less focus etc...

To be totally honest, What is the recipe for a perfect searies? Answer IMO: NONE. Every serie is not perfect, not because it had too many flaws, it's because peoples opinions are different.
I see people loving XYZ from their heart and people hating it as the devil. We all have opinions and we should respect eachother and not try to convince someone else that XYZ was great or terrible, that's just not right.

This is and discussion thread, but it isn't a XYZ bash thread.
What's the difference between discussing its flaws and bashing
 

Daniel31

HopingGaryReturns
Because Dawn and May at least were OUTPERFORMED in their first loss as well as multiple other times. Other performers could be legitimately better than them. Serena could only be legitimately defeated by the CHAMPION.
Did you even read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it? She was beaten in the first Tripokalon (Shauna won) and then in the 4th where Jessie won. I'm sorry if you can't accept her Pokemon losing their concentration during the event or performances as ways of losing (calling them flukes, which they aren't), but they still count as I've explained using real-life comparisons. I understand where your coming from, but that didn't happen. You may not like the methods they used for Serena to lose, but they're still legit and she lost.

There were some major flaws though. Firstly, she never faced any real challenges throughout the saga. She decided to cut her hair and start fresh because of a very minor error coupled with rotten luck. It would be meaningful if she showed development post-haircut, but pretty much nothing changed. Her performances were practically identical, there was barely any development shown from her Pokemon training (unless you count Braixen getting a new stick), and she won all her keys because no one else was good. There was no rival who pushed her to her limit (like Paul, who really forced Ash to bring out his absolute best), only Aria defeated her but that is reasonable.

The other main problem I have is her personality. Especially post-haircut, her personality was rather bland, generic and cliché. She could be pretty much described as a "nice and sweet girl who was into cooking and fashion". This makes her character likeable (unlike Iris hehe) but also makes her the blandest out of all the pokegirls. Misty, May, Dawn and Iris were nice too, but they had some real spunk in the sense that they would challenge not only their rivals, but their friends as well. Serena probably had the least chemistry with Ash, it did not feel like they were "buddies", but rather uncomfortable and trying to be polite to each other.
She faced plenty of challenges, just not on the "battlefield" like everyone wanted, which I've already explained. The challenges she faced were mostly mental ones, testing her resilence and will, the same way Ash gets challenged on the battlefield, but in a different sense. The race with her mom was a challenge, her skirt getting ripped and fixing it was a challenge, dealing with Braixen's branch and her attitude was a challenge, dealing with Eevee's shyness, dealing with Ash during the snowball scene where she stood up to him, etc...We get to the Master Class and Serena hurts her wrist and then Palermo tells her to not continue, but she doesn't quit and continues against Palermo's wishes. Even her feelings for Ash was a big challenge and she dealt with it in the end. How many times do I have to explain or repeat myself?

I'm not explaining the haircut again, I did it before here. http://www.serebiiforums.com/showth...Moments-of-XY(-amp-Z)&p=18261779#post18261779

Her biggest change after it, was her attitude and mindset. Her clothes too of course lol.

As for their chemistry, their characters were portrayed as more mature in this saga, so it was different this time around. Just look at the few private talks they had during the summer camp/river scene, post Master Class, Snowbelle town, their time together in xyz45 and the battle her and Ash had. In the beginning and other episodes Ash taught her things as the other was growing and learning while they both encouraged each other along the way (sounds similar to other sagas with a couple other Pokegirls if you ask me). Just because they didn't battle each other or share a strong rival, doesn't mean they didn't have chemistry.

As for her strategies during the performances, there were subtle changes if you go back and look, but they were the same general concept, I'm not going to agrue that. Blame the lazy writing on that one. We did see her train a few times though.

I mean you're entitled to your opinions about her being bland if you think so (I obviously don't) and other things as well, but some of the stuff I keep seeing is being misconstrued.
 
This is my basic review.

Enticed by the mega special, faded out a bit during the season (but I still researched the eps so I wasn't clueless), shot back in the TF arc.

I said it would be basic...
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
She faced plenty of challenges, just not on the "battlefield" like everyone wanted, which I've already explained. The challenges she faced were mostly mental ones, testing her resilence and will, the same way Ash gets challenged on the battlefield, but in a different sense. The race with her mom was a challenge, her skirt getting ripped and fixing it was a challenge, dealing with Braixen's branch and her attitude was a challenge, dealing with Eevee's shyness, dealing with Ash during the snowball scene where she stood up to him, etc...We get to the Master Class and Serena hurts her wrist and then Palermo tells her to not continue, but she doesn't quit and continues against Palermo's wishes. Even her feelings for Ash was a big challenge and she dealt with it in the end. How many times do I have to explain or repeat myself?
Real challenges. Not fixing her ripped skirt, hurting her wrist, dealing with her pokemon's branch, her pokemon is too shy, her love problems. These are all internal problems, and every pokegirl had them. This just goes to show that the only challenge on the way to her dream was herself, and there was no external stimuli which pushed her to her limit. May was constantly humiliated by Drew and got beaten to a pulp by Solidad. Dawn was always in Zoey's shadow, with Ursala winding her up. Ash got demolished by Paul and Wulfric to the point where he went into depression. After the first screw-up, she faced no real threat until Aria.


I'm not explaining the haircut again, I did it before here. http://www.serebiiforums.com/showth...Moments-of-XY(-amp-Z)&p=18261779#post18261779

Her biggest change after it, was her attitude and mindset. Her clothes too of course lol.
From what attitude to what? You admitted that her performances barely altered, so what made her start winning again? The haircut scene could have been an excellent development opportunity, but the only thing that changed were her clothes.

As for their chemistry, their characters were portrayed as more mature in this saga, so it was different this time around. Just look at the few private talks they had during the summer camp/river scene, post Master Class, Snowbelle town, their time together in xyz45 and the battle her and Ash had. In the beginning and other episodes Ash taught her things as the other was growing and learning while they both encouraged each other along the way (sounds similar to other sagas with a couple other Pokegirls if you ask me). Just because they didn't battle each other or share a strong rival, doesn't mean they didn't have chemistry.
My point is the other pokegirls seem to be more comfortable with Ash. For example, Ash and Dawn looked like they were best friends. They argued, laughed with each other, teased each other. Ash and Serena's interactions were kinda like someone you knew, but are not good enough friends with to take the piss or act completely comfortable around.

I mean you're entitled to your opinions about her being bland if you think so (I obviously don't) and other things as well, but some of the stuff I keep seeing is being misconstrued.
I gave my reasoning on why I think she is bland. Nice is good, only nice is boring.

Besides, I like Serena. She was a character with a lot of potential but unfortunately was handled poorly by the writers.
 

Daniel31

HopingGaryReturns
Real challenges. Not fixing her ripped skirt, hurting her wrist, dealing with her pokemon's branch, her pokemon is too shy, her love problems. These are all internal problems, and every pokegirl had them. This just goes to show that the only challenge on the way to her dream was herself, and there was no external stimuli which pushed her to her limit. May was constantly humiliated by Drew and got beaten to a pulp by Solidad. Dawn was always in Zoey's shadow, with Ursala winding her up. Ash got demolished by Paul and Wulfric to the point where he went into depression. After the first screw-up, she faced no real threat until Aria.
So you mean to tell me that if she had a "real" rival like the one's you mentioned, everything would be ok on that front? That's seems a bit unfair considering the amount of time they gave her goal. They only gave her 5 Tripokalons and a Master Class. The Contests were stretched out a lot more so they had more time to focus on something like that. That's another reason why the Tripokalon goal in general wasn't executed well, which goes back to the writers. I know that sounds like an excuse, but it isn't. It's actually an unfair comparison.

Those are "real" challenges, especially for a person who didn't know anything about being a trainer and didn't know what she wanted to do with her life. Even Grace hinted at this and her development in xy53. The conversation Grace had with Meyer in xyz45 also hints on how much she's changed.

From what attitude to what? You admitted that her performances barely altered, so what made her start winning again? The haircut scene could have been an excellent development opportunity, but the only thing that changed were her clothes.
Her attitude changed into becoming more confident and not giving up when a bad situation presented itself.

My point is the other pokegirls seem to be more comfortable with Ash. For example, Ash and Dawn looked like they were best friends. They argued, laughed with each other, teased each other. Ash and Serena's interactions were kinda like someone you knew, but are not good enough friends with to take the piss or act completely comfortable around.
Of course they were more comfortable around Ash because they didn't have a crush on him like Serena did and feel the way she felt about him.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
So you mean to tell me that if she had a "real" rival like the one's you mentioned, everything would be ok on that front? That's seems a bit unfair considering the amount of time they gave her goal. They only gave her 5 Tripokalons and a Master Class. The Contests were stretched out a lot more so they had more time to focus on something like that. That's another reason why the Tripokalon goal in general wasn't executed well, which goes back to the writers. I know that sounds like an excuse, but it isn't. It's actually an unfair comparison.

Those are "real" challenges, especially for a person who didn't know anything about being a trainer and didn't know what she wanted to do with her life. Even Grace hinted at this and her development in xy53. The conversation Grace had with Meyer in xyz45 also hints on how much she's changed.




Her attitude changed into becoming more confident and not giving up when a bad situation presented itself.


Of course they were more comfortable around Ash because they didn't have a crush on him like Serena did and feel the way she felt about him.
That is what I am saying, the writers handled Serena's goal badly which led to her having barely any challenges (in comparison to the other pokegirls) on her journey, which led to poor development (performances wise). Her personality development was handled well though.

Her crush on Ash also led to poor chemistry between the two.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Look son, another Toxic XYZ thread. Seriously the amount of hate it receives is huge. I see why people complain a lot about Serena, Alain, The League, Ash himself, TRio, Goodra, Noivern, more Pokémons who had too less focus etc...

To be totally honest, What is the recipe for a perfect searies? Answer IMO: NONE. Every serie is not perfect, not because it had too many flaws, it's because peoples opinions are different.
I see people loving XYZ from their heart and people hating it as the devil. We all have opinions and we should respect eachother and not try to convince someone else that XYZ was great or terrible, that's just not right.

This is and discussion thread, but it isn't a XYZ bash thread.
People are going to make negative criticism about XY, just like they do every other series (it's getting pretty fair reception compared to Johto and BW). I don't see many people forcing their opinions, just stating and arguing (though I don't really see what can be the former or the latter in this sort of discussion). There isn't much personal insults and bad attitude going on here, just clashes of opinions, which is what debating is about. You can't force people to 'lay off XY' just because you don't like it being criticised, even in professional manners (people can be negative and not 'bash' something. This is a REVIEW thread, not a 'Pat the writers on the back' thread.

Did you even read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it? She was beaten in the first Tripokalon (Shauna won) and then in the 4th where Jessie won. I'm sorry if you can't accept her Pokemon losing their concentration during the event or performances as ways of losing (calling them flukes, which they aren't), but they still count as I've explained using real-life comparisons. I understand where your coming from, but that didn't happen. You may not like the methods they used for Serena to lose, but they're still legit and she lost.
It just gave the excuse however that she had to screw up royal on stage to be outdone by anyone else. They weren't better than her, she just 'wasn't at her best' at the time. It maybe worked as a flaw if they had developed on it enough, but Serena was treated as perfect performer who just had a few bad bouts. No one else could top her when she was in her A game, compared to the others who could put up their best and still lose.

Look even if I am exaggerating this, I don't think it made things anymore entertaining. Her performance style in the showcases never altered (to the point some reused animation) and her battle style remained bare bones despite the number of times formula put her on the field with Team Rocket or some other antagonist. Even if it wasn't badly developed, doing the same basic method you did from day one through 140 episodes with zero alterations is still INCREDIBLY boring.
 
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U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
The word for this series is apathy. I cared for the characters in the beginning then faded as time went on. Clemont became a walking gag, Ash was a character with the depth of a sheet of paper, Serena had a goal so poorly paced and executed that I just rolled my eyes while shipping earned my apathy, Bonnie was annoying but that faded. Rivals were poorly written with Tierno and Trevor receiving the backburner. Alain bored more when he came into the main series.

There were good parts such as battles and TF arc, but the many poor decisions damaged this series.

This is and discussion thread, but it isn't a XYZ bash thread.
There is a major difference between bashing and criticism. O
 
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DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
The word for this series is apathy. I cared for the characters in the beginning then faded as time went on. Clemont became a walking gag, Ash was a character with the depth of a sheet of paper, Serena had a goal so poorly paced and executed that I just rolled my eyes while shipping earned my apathy, Bonnie was annoying but that faded. Rivals were poorly written with Tierno and Trevor receiving the backburner. Alain bored more when he came into the main series.

There were good parts such as battles and TF arc, but the many poor decisions damaged this series.



There is a major difference between bashing and criticism. O
I also felt Serena's character felt too dragged and ruled by her crush and shipping, I mean most people and "fans" don't care about her unless her crush is involve
But then again its the writer's fault for having her go throughout 40-50 epsiodes wthouut an actual goal while diverging too uch form the goal that would've been easy to deduce for her
 
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I also felt Serena's character felt too dragged and ruled by her crush and shipping, I mean most people and "fans" don't care about her unless her crush is involve
It's only them that overhyped the crush; it's what makes it so disgusting imo.

Anyways I'm not really thrilled with how this series played out; it needed alot more Serena and alot less of this version of Ash. Oh how I wish she replaced him as the main character for this series but oh well I guess :/
At least the Team Flare arc was good and I did enjoy some Bonnie and Clemont moments along with Serena and Alan was a great character too.
 
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DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
It's only them that overhyped the crush; it's what makes it so disgusting imo.

Anyways I'm not really thrilled with how this series played out; it needed alot more Serena and alot less of this version of Ash. Oh how I wish she replaced him as the main character for this series but oh well I guess :/
At least the Team Flare arc was good and I did enjoy some Bonnie and Clemont moments along with Serena and Alan was a great character too.
Yeah, hoenstly the TF Arc redeemed the overhyped mess that was XY, that and Greninja-Ash arc which gave some much needed depth to Ash's character, sadly that depth didn't stick around and he went back to "perfect near marty-stu shonen hero"
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Yeah, hoenstly the TF Arc redeemed the overhyped mess that was XY, that and Greninja-Ash arc which gave some much needed depth to Ash's character, sadly that depth didn't stick around and he went back to "perfect near marty-stu shonen hero"
Yeah, I found this on tv tropes.

The Ash-Greninja Arc has mainly earned the praise of the anime's community, but has nonetheless also drawn some ire. Either you see it as great arc with fantastic development for Ash Ketchum or you see it as an arc that gets Ash out of character and depressed just to put him back to where he was. Most of those who hold the latter opinion cite that Ash hasn't really gained any character depth when all is said and done, while those holding the former opinion state that the arc showed what motivated Ash to be a trainer in the first place, and how the whole point was for Ash to regain that enthousiasm.
I'll need to rewatch the episodes, but I can't see the depth gained other than a snipet of backstory.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel like Serena teasing with her goal for a long while might have been worthwhile if it led to more meaningful development for her character. Yeah we got a few chekhovs skills for the showcases, but that was about it outside a couple pep talks from Ash. We could have looked more into her foibles and preferences rather than it all just being a bunch of skippable red herrings. The showcases themselves could have worked easy if they had fixed Serena's monotony and had a few of the opposition's victories shown in the filler episodes like in DP.

Let's say....they put one extra showcase in between the first and second where Serena got good runner up, but was beaten without any mistakes because the opposition was better for once. Spruce up her later acts by having her use more varied gimmicks and costumes like the Fennekin gear in EP20 to make them more eccentric and then maybe choreograph some performances to different music (what about her 'B Side' theme, Candy Girl?). It's basic changes, but it would have made her look at least mildly more versatile and progressive. Why just the same stuff each and every episode? It was like they were intentionally trying to make her monotonous compared to the competition.

Battle wise, they should have just introduced Serena conjuring Braixen's defensive battle style MUCH earlier than her very last battle. That simple a change as well.

Concerning the AshGreninja arc, meh. Greninja was a dull ace to me, much like Ash himself in this era. And the premise of Ash over focusing on power was underwhelmingly used, especially in a series that did endless power spam battles. ("Dodge"; great tactics there). His brief outburst would have likely been seen as a bare bones angst moment if XY Ash wasn't so unemotive the rest of the series, since he's had stronger outbursts in nearly every other series (trust me Serena, he could have been a LOT nastier).
 
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DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
Yeah, I found this on tv tropes.



I'll need to rewatch the episodes, but I can't see the depth gained other than a snipet of backstory.
Still more depth than almost all of XY, btu IMo it hasn't as much as depth as Infernape's, Charizard's or even Pignite's arcs
 

345ash-greninja

Royal Guard Knight
I feel like Serena teasing with her goal for a long while might have been worthwhile if it led to more meaningful development for her character. Yeah we got a few chekhovs skills for the showcases, but that was about it outside a couple pep talks from Ash. We could have looked more into her foibles and preferences rather than it all just being a bunch of skippable red herrings. The showcases themselves could have worked easy if they had fixed Serena's monotony and had a few of the opposition's victories shown in the filler episodes like in DP.

Let's say....they put one extra showcase in between the first and second where Serena got good runner up, but was beaten because the opposition was better for once. Spruce up her later acts by having her use more varied gimmicks and costumes like the Fennekin gear in EP20 to make them more eccentric and then maybe choreograph some performances to different music (what about her 'B Side' theme, Candy Girl?). It's basic changes, but it would have made her look at least mildly more versatile and progressive. Why just the same stuff each and every episode? It was like they were intentionally trying to make her monotonous compared to the competition.

Battle wise, they should have just introduced Serena conjuring Braixen's defensive battle style from the final episode MUCH earlier as some showing of strategy. That simple a change as well.

Concerning the AshGreninja arc, meh. Greninja was a dull ace to me, much like Ash himself in this era. And the premise of Ash over focusing on power was underwhelmingly used, especially in a series that did endless power spam battles. ("Dodge"; great tactics there). His brief outburst would have likely been seen as a bare bones angst moment if XY Ash wasn't so unemotive the rest of the series, since he's had stronger outbursts in nearly every other series.
It is really difficult to understand your opinion, to be honest. 'Greninja was a dull ace'. It was arguably Ash's best ace and his strongest Pokemon up to date. It is clear after seeing its feats. It never relied on power alone, it was undoubtedly Ash's speediest Pokemon up to date. It is probably the most favourite Pokemon among fans that Ash has ever owned. LMAO.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
It is really difficult to understand your opinion, to be honest. 'Greninja was a dull ace'. It was arguably Ash's best ace and his strongest Pokemon up to date. It is clear after seeing its feats. It never relied on power alone, it was undoubtedly Ash's speediest Pokemon up to date. It is probably the most favourite Pokemon among fans that Ash has ever owned. LMAO.
But as a character it was lifeless and dull.

And it didn't have to be because it was freaking frog ninja with a tongue scarf! How do you make that a boring character???
 

345ash-greninja

Royal Guard Knight
But as a character it was lifeless and dull.

And it didn't have to be because it was freaking frog ninja with a tongue scarf! How do you make that a boring character???
In your opinion. Opinion=/=Fact. It's Bond Phenomenon arc strongly reflected its strong bond with Ash and their will to get stronger. Also check out their emotions in the episode it was released.
 
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