Pokémon the Series XY | Pokémon the Series XY&Z

[HoundoomFan]

XY(Z) is an average series & find it pretty overrated overall.

Positives:
- the beginning. That's it. Granted everything was good then. TRio, battles/action, characters (besides Serena), got an interesting looking plot & humor.
- The league. All full battles on-screen where interesting & intense. 'But baaaaaaw ash lost again!' Yeah, was it that surprising really? I'm not going to be butthurt cuz the writers didn't bend to people's wishes to have ash win this time.
-ok another good thing is they brought back TRio antics/quirks back. James & his bottle caps

Neutral:
-Battles leagues better than BW, but then once mega evolution came in most battles became 'HAMMER POWEFUL ATTACK & DODGE' & overrpowerfest, & it became the same with ash-greninja.
- Bonnie she was very cute & enjoyed her childish acts. And she had a unique role with squishy. Most episodes later on though she is very little active. Understandable though as she can't do anything cuz she's not ten.

Negatives:
-characters:
Ash: good news he's better than BW Ash. And that's all that's good about him. Now he evolved into typical male shonnen main character. Even goku was more interesting than XY(Z) ash... AND NARUTO.
Clemont: he was so amazing as a character!... in the beginning. After Serena got her goal, he became background, & after his gym badge he becomes practically non-existent. After his gym badge his main role was the gag guy. 'THE FUTURE IS NOW THANKS TO SCIENCE!' /inventionblowingupinfaces
'MARRY MY OLDER BRO OLDER WOMAN!' 'BONNIE I TOLD YOU A MILLION TIMES NOT TO DO THAT!'/robotarmpullsbonnieaway
TRio: they were just jokester punching bags after the begging. Plus they rarely had their personality shine.
Rivals: completely boring, Trevor & Terino just gimmick characters, shunna just that bubbly friendly character, Alain is the boring, 'mysterious' anti-hero, green hairs kid whose name slips my mind is just a guy who take notes & studies, minettie just teased Serena, nini came late & is pretty unmemorable after her first appearance.
Pokemon: they all had great personality... in the beginning of their run. Sadly the only one who seemed to keep his personality was Chespin & he wasn't shown much after clemont was background.
Serena: worst for last, cuz there's a lot of problems I have with her. Let's start off with her redesign... it sucks. I guess it does look like a 10 year old cut her hair & picked out her own clothes without help. Which was what happened. Her first outfit was a bit weird, but tolerable enough. Then they changed her into her current monstrosity.

But i don't judge characters mainly on their looks. That's just shallow. We will now get into the big problems I have with her. She's a huge Mary Sue. She gets moves & Pokemon that evolve with little effort. She never failed her goal cuz she was outperformed (except for aria). She won one first round by just standing there cuz magically ryhorn are just attracted to her for no reason. After never having a serious battle that lasted more than a couple moves she somehow was able to give ash a good battle. She never got called out for favoring ash, ignoring clemont, or being manipulative. Ash & Serena's fight was viewed as 'all ash's fault' in the anime when she just needed to leave ash alone. Steal ash's clothes & impersonate him? Serena got no negative consequence for that. Nag ash like his mom? 'Ok Serena ur da boss.'

Her 'development'... she doesn't really have any cuz her personality flops all over the god damn place. When she was racing her mom she remembers how she used to cry all the time about everything. But after falling off the skido she gets backs on without shedding a tear. Few episodes later, she lost the not contest thing ONCE while it was her very first time doing it... and she bawls like a huge baby. Though she never truely developed. She always stayed dependant & focused on getting 'ash-sama'!

Her crush & how she handles it is minipulitve, controlling, and makes her a complete tool. I don't know how that's possible but with a bi-polar character like Serena... anyways she's minipulitive cuz she won't let ash be human and have feelings cuz 'your not acting like the ash I know!' Controlling a bunch of situations. Getting angry at the teacher for a misunderstanding, trying to hold ash's hand, and kissing him, whoops that's sexual assault. Oh right, guys can't get sexually assaulted by woman silly me And I'll remind you all throughout the journey THEY ARE JUST FRIENDS NOT DATING. And her parting words make me want to vomit. 'You are my goal!' 'When you see me again I'll be a prettyier woman.' Shallow sexist tool is all I can say.

And all in all, all Serena was was a girly-girl cliche. She didn't battle much, she was into an all-girl, prissy, dress up, show off, cook, getting 'princess keys' in her goal, didn't like to camp out, refused to get her face ruined to save her from being mind-controlled, hated to race on ryhorn, & swoons over guy. Her backstory sucks as all it is is how she knew ash for like 30 minutes at most and how she was a stupid bimbo going out into the woods alone & being freaked out by a poliwag for no reason. I found Serena a waste of space & time & overall broung the XY(Z) series down. Not the only thing, just made it 2X worse. She was somewhat relatable but then you see her in action...

-kalos queen: at least contest guys could enter, & females could go after gym badges and compete in the Pokemon league. Not this stupid, shallow, sexist, contest talent round rip-off. And how you win it is pretty boring in itself as who cares it's just a popularity contest.

-plot: too slow going. We got some here, then a string of fillers. And the plot itself? Wow so original [\sarcasm] MC is chosen one and a great disasater will happen cuz evil team organization & heroes have to stop them. Really?

I still have to watch the TF arc, but I don't think that'll chance my opinion of this let down of a series, which the only good thing is that it's better than BW.
ATM XY(Z) is getting a 5/10 (mediocre) for me.

 

[snorlax512]

XY(Z) is an average series & find it pretty overrated overall.

Positives:
- the beginning. That's it. Granted everything was good then. TRio, battles/action, characters (besides Serena), got an interesting looking plot & humor.
- The league. All full battles on-screen where interesting & intense. 'But baaaaaaw ash lost again!' Yeah, was it that surprising really? I'm not going to be butthurt cuz the writers didn't bend to people's wishes to have ash win this time.
-ok another good thing is they brought back TRio antics/quirks back. James & his bottle caps

Neutral:
-Battles leagues better than BW, but then once mega evolution came in most battles became 'HAMMER POWEFUL ATTACK & DODGE' & overrpowerfest, & it became the same with ash-greninja.
- Bonnie she was very cute & enjoyed her childish acts. And she had a unique role with squishy. Most episodes later on though she is very little active. Understandable though as she can't do anything cuz she's not ten.

Negatives:
-characters:
Ash: good news he's better than BW Ash. And that's all that's good about him. Now he evolved into typical male shonnen main character. Even goku was more interesting than XY(Z) ash... AND NARUTO.
Clemont: he was so amazing as a character!... in the beginning. After Serena got her goal, he became background, & after his gym badge he becomes practically non-existent. After his gym badge his main role was the gag guy. 'THE FUTURE IS NOW THANKS TO SCIENCE!' /inventionblowingupinfaces
'MARRY MY OLDER BRO OLDER WOMAN!' 'BONNIE I TOLD YOU A MILLION TIMES NOT TO DO THAT!'/robotarmpullsbonnieaway
TRio: they were just jokester punching bags after the begging. Plus they rarely had their personality shine.
Rivals: completely boring, Trevor & Terino just gimmick characters, shunna just that bubbly friendly character, Alain is the boring, 'mysterious' anti-hero, green hairs kid whose name slips my mind is just a guy who take notes & studies, minettie just teased Serena, nini came late & is pretty unmemorable after her first appearance.
Pokemon: they all had great personality... in the beginning of their run. Sadly the only one who seemed to keep his personality was Chespin & he wasn't shown much after clemont was background.
Serena: worst for last, cuz there's a lot of problems I have with her. Let's start off with her redesign... it sucks. I guess it does look like a 10 year old cut her hair & picked out her own clothes without help. Which was what happened. Her first outfit was a bit weird, but tolerable enough. Then they changed her into her current monstrosity.

But i don't judge characters mainly on their looks. That's just shallow. We will now get into the big problems I have with her. She's a huge Mary Sue. She gets moves & Pokemon that evolve with little effort. She never failed her goal cuz she was outperformed (except for aria). She won one first round by just standing there cuz magically ryhorn are just attracted to her for no reason. After never having a serious battle that lasted more than a couple moves she somehow was able to give ash a good battle. She never got called out for favoring ash, ignoring clemont, or being manipulative. Ash & Serena's fight was viewed as 'all ash's fault' in the anime when she just needed to leave ash alone. Steal ash's clothes & impersonate him? Serena got no negative consequence for that. Nag ash like his mom? 'Ok Serena ur da boss.'

Her 'development'... she doesn't really have any cuz her personality flops all over the god damn place. When she was racing her mom she remembers how she used to cry all the time about everything. But after falling off the skido she gets backs on without shedding a tear. Few episodes later, she lost the not contest thing ONCE while it was her very first time doing it... and she bawls like a huge baby. Though she never truely developed. She always stayed dependant & focused on getting 'ash-sama'!

Her crush & how she handles it is minipulitve, controlling, and makes her a complete tool. I don't know how that's possible but with a bi-polar character like Serena... anyways she's minipulitive cuz she won't let ash be human and have feelings cuz 'your not acting like the ash I know!' Controlling a bunch of situations. Getting angry at the teacher for a misunderstanding, trying to hold ash's hand, and kissing him, whoops that's sexual assault. Oh right, guys can't get sexually assaulted by woman silly me And I'll remind you all throughout the journey THEY ARE JUST FRIENDS NOT DATING. And her parting words make me want to vomit. 'You are my goal!' 'When you see me again I'll be a prettyier woman.' Shallow sexist tool is all I can say.

And all in all, all Serena was was a girly-girl cliche. She didn't battle much, she was into an all-girl, prissy, dress up, show off, cook, getting 'princess keys' in her goal, didn't like to camp out, refused to get her face ruined to save her from being mind-controlled, hated to race on ryhorn, & swoons over guy. Her backstory sucks as all it is is how she knew ash for like 30 minutes at most and how she was a stupid bimbo going out into the woods alone & being freaked out by a poliwag for no reason. I found Serena a waste of space & time & overall broung the XY(Z) series down. Not the only thing, just made it 2X worse. She was somewhat relatable but then you see her in action...

-kalos queen: at least contest guys could enter, & females could go after gym badges and compete in the Pokemon league. Not this stupid, shallow, sexist, contest talent round rip-off. And how you win it is pretty boring in itself as who cares it's just a popularity contest.

-plot: too slow going. We got some here, then a string of fillers. And the plot itself? Wow so original [\sarcasm] MC is chosen one and a great disasater will happen cuz evil team organization & heroes have to stop them. Really?

I still have to watch the TF arc, but I don't think that'll chance my opinion of this let down of a series, which the only good thing is that it's better than BW.
ATM XY(Z) is getting a 5/10 (mediocre) for me.

I don't agree with you but I laughed so hard at your Serena rant xD

 

[Soniman]

Nag ash like his mom? 'Ok Serena ur da boss.'

Because if she was completley nice to Ash you wouldve complained about her being his waifu (which you do so lel)

Her 'development'... she doesn't really have any cuz her personality flops all over the god damn place. When she was racing her mom she remembers how she used to cry all the time about everything. But after falling off the skido she gets backs on without shedding a tear. Few episodes later, she lost the not contest thing ONCE while it was her very first time doing it... and she bawls like a huge baby.

Its almost like failing (not even failing, falling off a skiddo does not equal instant failure, just get back on) at something you didnt like doing to begin with after years and years of practice is a lot diffrent then actually failing at somehting you put your all into (and the failure was for a incredibly simple mistake)

Though she never truely developed. She always stayed dependant & focused on getting 'ash-sama'!

This is the literal equivalent to people's only complaint about Iris being the "what a kid" crap (ballooning something relatively minor/secondary and acting like it's their entire character as if you didnt watch the show), once people use that I lose all inability to take them seriously so I wont even address the rest of this complaint except this one part.

and kissing him, whoops that's sexual assault.

My sides have left orbit, are you being real? You know they're both 10 year old children right and it was just an innocent kiss that Ash showed no discomfort about whatsoever?

nd all in all, all Serena was was a girly-girl cliche. She didn't battle much, she was into an all-girl, prissy, dress up, show off, cook, getting 'princess keys' in her goal, didn't like to camp out, refused to get her face ruined to save her from being mind-controlled, hated to race on ryhorn, & swoons over guy.

Serena "not liking to camp out" stopped being a thing early in XY once she got used to it and it's pretty sad you're bringing that up as a way to drag her when that's a perfect example of her developing, in a minor way sure but still it's not even a flaw anymore. The mind control thing was a one off gag so dont even tyr that, and hating Ryhorn racing has nothing to do with being a girl even, she disliked it and wanted to try something new, again there's your development that you're ignoring to villanze her. And already talked about the crush thing.

-kalos queen: at least contest guys could enter, & females could go after gym badges and compete in the Pokemon league. Not this stupid, shallow, sexist, contest talent round rip-off. And how you win it is pretty boring in itself as who cares it's just a popularity contest.

You know characters have to work hard and train (which, yes we do see Serena do btw before anyone says anyhting) just like any other profession right? It's not just show up and look pretty? I wish people would stop acting like Serena didnt have to do anything to win, its the most unfair bs and I dont even like Performances that much.

 

[DatsRight]

Because if she was completley nice to Ash you wouldve complained about her being his waifu (which you do so lel)

I think it's more anything that wasn't completely nice about her wasn't developed in story. The plot TREATED her like a perfectly nice and competent girl and anything negative, even if it could amount to good development and foibles, was whitewashed and unimportant, I mean less in terms of her always getting away with crap and all that (that was more Bonnie's job) and more just it being undeveloped and usually just comic relief. I mean I don't see her as abusive or 'manipulative', but her 'bond' with Ash WAS definitely glorified. She actually probably had the least of a chemistry with him out of all the Pokegirls.

Truthfully foibles weren't much of a focus at all in this series. Clemont's inventing bumbles or meekness or Bonnie's brattiness were there for comic relief and nothing else. Flaws and conflicts were hardly ever a part of serious development, which isn't good because they are meant to be as much as the positives. They didn't grow from any mistakes or shortcomings they made. Everything was so nice and perfect with this team despite an underlying sense of dysfunction, when it wasn't kinda boring it felt delusional.

Its almost like failing (not even failing, falling off a skiddo does not equal instant failure, just get back on) at something you didnt like doing to begin with after years and years of practice is a lot diffrent then actually failing at somehting you put your all into (and the failure was for a incredibly simple mistake)

She lost her very first showcase, and only due to a fluke. The show treated it like a disaster she didn't clean house the very first time she entered and made her do so by her second because she was 'the new Serena' with a haircut but no different approach in her performance whatsoever. The crying I'm meh towards but the treatment of the showcase progression was laughable.

This is the literal equivalent to people's only complaint about Iris being the "what a kid" crap (ballooning something relatively minor/secondary and acting like it's their entire character as if you didnt watch the show), once people use that I lose all inability to take them seriously so I wont even address the rest of this complaint except this one part.

No because Iris' complaint there amounts to a slightly demeaning catchphrase she spammed too much, while Serena's amounts to what was supposed to make a huge amount of her character development. I mean, I don't even agree with most of the points made above, but I do agree Serena didn't come off as developing and improving as a trainer much at all. She was just too glorified and protected, at the cost of her making any trial and error and becoming remotely versatile. I thought after BW they might be done making the heroes invincible and cheaply safeguarded and try to make them fallible and hard working, but Serena got all the spoils with little of the hardship. She didn't lose ANYTHING without an excuse given by the plot, despite cases she was blatantly untrained and incompetent even by the end of the series (she was stuck against Flare grunts the moment one basic attack failed, she'd learned NO different strategies at all in all that time because she'd been getting handed victories or thrashing dumbed down opponents like TR. But of course it didn't backfire on her, someone saved her before her team suffered even a hit, and prevented her from losing her dignity and realising her shortcomings, because Serena having a flaw and being punished by the plot like all her predecessors is 'too mean').

You know characters have to work hard and train (which, yes we do see Serena do btw before anyone says anyhting) just like any other profession right? It's not just show up and look pretty? I wish people would stop acting like Serena didnt have to do anything to win, its the most unfair bs and I dont even like Performances that much.

Winning with the same bare bones strategy you had from the start and then being useless the moment it fails is not hard working and developing. Yeah we saw some basic scenes of her training but did they have much context or amount to anything in her methods?

 

[HoundoomFan]

Because if she was completley nice to Ash you wouldve complained about her being his waifu (which you do so lel)

I don't care that she's sometimes mean to 'my ashy-kins'. I care that ash or anyone else for that matter never snapped or told her up when she was acting like that. Cuz you know, any person who nags them at least is a bit snarky adding, 'what, are you my mom or something?' Hence ONE of the reasons why i think she's a Mary Sue.

Its almost like failing (not even failing, falling off a skiddo does not equal instant failure, just get back on) at something you didnt like doing to begin with after years and years of practice is a lot diffrent then actually failing at somehting you put your all into (and the failure was for a incredibly simple mistake)

Well the race decided if she was going to do her goal or not, she knew that but still was able to climb up on the skiddo without crying. However, it wasn't like that one loss was that destroyed her dreams right then & there.

This is the literal equivalent to people's only complaint about Iris being the "what a kid" crap (ballooning something relatively minor/secondary and acting like it's their entire character as if you didnt watch the show), once people use that I lose all inability to take them seriously so I wont even address the rest of this complaint except this one part.[\QUOTE]
Cuz she didn't decide to leave home till she saw ash? Cuz once ash let her join she didn't spend most of her time swooning over ash? Cuz during her kalos queen goal she got confidence herself & never thought 'ash said this, & so I will use it to lift myself up!' Cuz she didn't make the wulfric battle untolerable? Cuz she didn't radio ash for no reason? No we can't never be annoyed with the things about her crush like it's not logical for Iris haters to hate her for an annoying catchphrase that makes her a hypocrite.

My sides have left orbit, are you being real? You know they're both 10 year old children right and it was just an innocent kiss that Ash showed no discomfort about whatsoever?

IMO he looked quite annoyed if you look at him after the kiss & not clemont, Bonnie, & the Pokemon. In any case she didn't even know if ash would be ok with the kiss & just did it. But I'm not serious with the sexual assault clam as I'm saying she was being controlling there.

"Serena "not liking to camp out" stopped being a thing early in XY once she got used to it and it's pretty sad you're bringing that up as a way to drag her when that's a perfect example of her developing, in a minor way sure but still it's not even a flaw anymore. The mind control thing was a one off gag so dont even tyr that, and hating Ryhorn racing has nothing to do with being a girl even, she disliked it and wanted to try something new, again there's your development that you're ignoring to villanze her. And already talked about the crush thing.

She hates ryhorn racing cuz it's 'too hard' & not in her interest aka dressing up, showing off, & being popular. Aka girly-girl cliche c**p. And if you want to say something that happened less than an episode and never really mentioned again as development, than I can use that '1 time gag' as proof that she's just a girly-girl cliche.

You know characters have to work hard and train (which, yes we do see Serena do btw before anyone says anyhting) just like any other profession right? It's not just show up and look pretty? I wish people would stop acting like Serena didnt have to do anything to win, its the most unfair bs and I dont even like Performances that much.

In kalos queen they don't really need to train with their Pokemon. As long as you get the people out in the world to like you, than bam you are a winner. Remember when that girl who was yelling at pelarmo whined about how her performance was much better than Serena's and was coordinated bettter? Well too bad for her, it didn't matter. It was only popularity that mattered. Except for the first round, but then in the end you just have to learn how to cook, design, & be lucky & just attract ryhorn by standing there that requires a lot of training.

I don't agree with you but I laughed so hard at your Serena rant xD

Well at least I entertained you a bit even if we disagree. XD

 

[Xuxuba]

can people just say they don't like a character instead of labelling everything a mary sue?

she isn't very good at battling, she only won half of the showcases she went to and only once it was her pokemon's fault, she is extremely indecisive and shy and she can be quite the cry-baby, her mother herself said she often gave up on things before even trying, she is a complete coward when it comes to things such as crossing bridges and dealing with ghosts and she completely loses her temperament whenever braixen and pancham fight

you might not like her, but she definetly had flaws.

She hates ryhorn racing cuz it's 'too hard' & not in her interest aka dressing up, showing off, & being popular. Aka girly-girl cliche c**p. And if you want to say something that happened less than an episode and never really mentioned again as development, than I can use that '1 time gag' as proof that she's just a girly-girl cliche.

lol she didn't give up because she found it too hard, she gave up because she didn't like it. She actually became quite good at it after all the training she had so the easiest choice for her would be rhyhorn racing
Also what is wrong with a girl liking things such as dressing up and performing? It's not like we never had "tomboy" girls on this show and i don't see anyone complaining about Ash liking "boy stuff", but sure let's complain about Serena because she is a girl and girls have to be that awful oversexualized "badass" female character that hundreds of shows, games and movies are trying to sell these days... You know the typical "i'm a sexy girl but i like things that boys usually like so that makes me better than other girls, also i can fight half-naked " like Megan Fox in the transformers movie. The funny thing is that most girls tend to hate characters like these, but most boys love them and i think you know the reason why.

 

[HoundoomFan]

can people just say they don't like a character instead of labelling everything a mary sue?

Can't we all just have our opinions & views on characters?

she isn't very good at battling,

Maybe but in the end she was shielded from actually losing battles even though there were chances she could win. And the battle she had with ash may prove otherwise.

he only won half of the showcases she went to and only once it was her pokemon's fault,

That's wrong. Twice was it was her pokemons fault & she was only 'outperformed' once by aria.

she is extremely indecisive and shy [\quote]
Oh nice flaws that can be viewed as 'cute' & 'enduring'! I guess I can slap on 'clumsy' my OC & say that's good enough for flaws but they're not really flaws cuz it's cute & I only will use it for lawls.

and she can be quite the cry-baby, her mother herself said she often gave up on things before even trying, [\quote]
Yes can be one moment, then next she isn't crying. I mean she didn't cry after her 2nd lost. Didn't cry when she fell of skido.

she is a complete coward when it comes to things such as crossing bridges and dealing with ghosts [\quote]
Great fears so cute for our cute perfect princess cuz that thoese really hindered her life.

and she completely loses her temperament whenever braixen and pancham fight

Right cuz she can get away with that & her Pokemon weren't the slightest upset with her when she yelled at them. Not Mary Sueish at all. It's not like Mary Sues get away with being rude to people.

you might not like her, but she definetly had flaws.

You may not agree, but some people see her as a Mary Sue.

lol she didn't give up because she found it too hard, she gave up because she didn't like it. She actually became quite good at it after all the training she had so the easiest choice for her would be rhyhorn racing
Also what is wrong with a girl liking things such as dressing up and performing? It's not like we never had "tomboy" girls on this show and i don't see anyone complaining about Ash liking "boy stuff", but sure let's complain about Serena because she is a girl and girls have to be that awful oversexualized "badass" female character that hundreds of shows, games and movies are trying to sell these days.

She was only able to ride one in one episode & I don't think she became a master at it then. Even Bonnie & clemont where still able to ride one better before Serena. When she left home though, she still sucks as at riding one. And I don't hate her cuz she's into girly girl things. I dislike her cuz that's basically all there is to her & it hingers her character. You don't see dawn being solely defined by girly girl traits. And Ash isn't into just 'guy things.' He likes all Pokemon wether 'cool' or 'cute' looking. In fact in kanto he was picked on a couple of times cuz of pikachu being 'cute' & 'girly' but he still has his pikachu. He also watches contest and helped and was interested in some of dawn's moves so he's not all 'manly man' ether.

 

[Xuxuba]

Can't we all just have our opinions & views on characters?


Maybe but in the end she was shielded from actually losing battles even though there were chances she could win. And the battle she had with ash may prove otherwise.

That's wrong. Twice was it was her pokemons fault & she was only 'outperformed' once by aria.

Oh nice flaws that can be viewed as 'cute' & 'enduring'! I guess I can slap on 'clumsy' my OC & say that's good enough for flaws but they're not really flaws cuz it's cute & I only will use it for lawls.


Yes can be one moment, then next she isn't crying. I mean she didn't cry after her 2nd lost. Didn't cry when she fell of skido.


Great fears so cute for our cute perfect princess cuz that thoese really hindered her life.


Right cuz she can get away with that & her Pokemon weren't the slightest upset with her when she yelled at them. Not Mary Sueish at all. It's not like Mary Sues get away with being rude to people.


You may not agree, but some people see her as a Mary Sue.



She was only able to ride one in one episode & I don't think she became a master at it then. Even Bonnie & clemont where still able to ride one better before Serena. When she left home though, she still sucks as at riding one. And I don't hate her cuz she's into girly girl things. I dislike her cuz that's basically all there is to her & it hingers her character. You don't see dawn being solely defined by girly girl traits. And Ash isn't into just 'guy things.' He likes all Pokemon wether 'cool' or 'cute' looking. In fact in kanto he was picked on a couple of times cuz of pikachu being 'cute' & 'girly' but he still has his pikachu. He also watches contest and helped and was interested in some of dawn's moves so he's not all 'manly man' ether.

you're actually ignoring her entire character development and using the term mary sue wrong.
Anyway, i can't really discuss now cuz university and sh** but once i'm done with this stuff in like 4 days i will gladly remind you (or just tell you in case you didn't actually watch the whole show) of how Serena does have flaws and how some of your statements are just wrong (like Serena showing the ability to ride pokemon only once and Clemont/bonnie doing it better than her).
I do agree that she is not necessarily a bad battler, but when she started her journey she didn't learn quite as fast as other newbie companions did, which is probably due to how indecisive she was at the beginning of the show (this also shows how much she has grown so far).

 

[snorlax512]

I don't think she was a Mary Sue as she really wasn't that impressive in showcases or battles, but rather no one ever posed a real challenge to her.

 

[Daniel31]

So now it's moved over to here...ok, well here's my thoughts...AGAIN!

First off, Serena was a very special/different character. You had the sense of realism about her, a canon crush on the main protagonist, and a design change almost midway through the series. Those were the 3 things that stood out most in general I'd say. I personally liked her for other reasons though.

So about that sense of realism. Well, taking the time to figure out what you want to do with your life that will make you happy is something people in the real world go through every day. It was a very realistic situation that she was in that I feel at times doesn't get appreciated in this sense. Then, you had her crush on Ash. Again, it's something that people have been through and the way Serena approached it was realistic. When Serena more less changed her goal to make people smile, that's a very admirable thing. It was a refreshing change of pace to have a character that people can actually relate to.

Serena was mentally strong. She had to the courage to leave home and to not do what her mother wanted her to. She was challenged in a race by her mother where Serena fell down, but then got right back up and didn't quit. Her mother seen the determination in her which ended up being enough for her to continue on with her goal/dream. When she lost her first Tripokalon, she was devastated as we all seen (just like the other past Pokegirls, May and Dawn). However, unlike them, she conquered the stress of her first loss on her own with no help from anyone, except her Pokemon. Then she cuts her hair to show her resilence/change and to show that she's determined to become a stronger person and the past is behind her (that was a significant act). In Serena's 2nd Tripokalon, she's getting ready to do her performance and Jessie knocks her down which causes her dress/skirt to rip. Does Serena give up..? Nope. She remembers the words of Ash and fixes the situation on her own. In the 4th Tripokalon, Eevee falls during the performance, but she doesn't waver. Serena just smiles and assures Eevee that it's alright and they finish the performance together. In the 5th Tripokalon, Serena was the underdog. There was the town favorite (Amelia) and Serena stays calm, does her best, and ends up winning. Palermo explains to Amelia in a sense to why she lost and why Serena won. One of the bigger battles within herself, her feelings for Ash. In the end she lets them be known and now has no regrets on that front for the time being (it took courage to do what she did).

For the 2 main complaints I've seen a lot:

1. Serena not battling enough. Well technically her goal DID NOT require her to battle so why should she be forced to battle more than she has to (granted now that she's doing contests, she will). They've could've incorporated it when she battled Aria (called it a performer's battle I believe) when Fennekin evolved, but they didn't. Besides that, don't we get enough battling from Ash and others? Is Pokemon all about battling? No it isn't. It's a good way to learn about yourself and others through a battle and that much was shown on a few occasions with Serena. She battled Aria and we received Braixen while Serena gained confidence in the process. She battled the tree guy and Braixen learned to cope with the loss of her branch while Serena's bond with Braixen grew more. She tag battled twice and came up with an performance idea for Eevee and in the next one we received Sylveon which was an evolution she earned because of the way Serena bonded with Eevee. She then battled Ash and realized what her next move was going to be in reference to her journey. So there's multiple occasions where we seen nice development from just a minimal amout of battling and it didn't matter if they were interrupted in that sense. We also seen in the Pikachu battle and the battle with Ash that Serena can be competant.

2. Serena was a Mary-Sue? How is that even possible when she lost 3 times and in another occasion at the summer camp, her Pokemon was elimated from the team battle. Her losses weren't flukes or accidental. On two occasions, Serena made decisions that caused her to lose. She even said it herself that the first loss was her fault because she wasn't thinking about Fennekin next to her, she cut and made the ribbon too long. It was a costly mistake as we all saw and it was her very first Tripokalon where she was clearly nervous, give the girl a break. The other time is when Eevee fell during the 4th Tripokalon. Eevee clearly wasn't ready because of its shyness and inability to not focus when in the presence of large crowd/strangers, but Serena took a gamble and it was baptism by fire basically. These kinds of things happen, it's realistic. When competitors fall down in like a figure skating performance or mess up on a stage, is that a fluke or bad luck? No, it's maybe because of lack of concentration or just nerves (which was the case for Eevee in that performance). People need to stop looking at these instances as accidents or flukes because they do happen in sports and other competitions if you really think about it. The 3rd time she lost, obviously to Aria in the Master Class where she was out-performed apparantly.

The problem with that and in general when discussing Tripokalons was the writers never really explained how one's performance was better than the other, plus poor execution of the whole thing in general. We got a very vague detail from Palermo but it wasn't enough. I can honestly understand the negativity and hate for them, but in the end...Serena did receive development from them (which is most important) and now she's exploring Contests.

I can sit here and rattle off more stuff for the sake of argument, but do I really need to..? I've done this before and I'm honestly tired of it. She wasn't as bad as some people like to think or make her out to be. The fact is, she was a very sweet character who people could actually relate to and was well developed while being headstrong in the process. She cared for her Pokemon and friends a lot and doesn't really deserve the amount of negative criticism that gets constantly tossed her way. I actually like the fact that one of her goals is to make people smile because at least she's doing something to benefit others instead of trying to win a trophy or a cup.

 

[DatsRight]

can people just say they don't like a character instead of labelling everything a mary sue?

she isn't very good at battling, she only won half of the showcases she went to and only once it was her pokemon's fault, she is extremely indecisive and shy and she can be quite the cry-baby, her mother herself said she often gave up on things before even trying, she is a complete coward when it comes to things such as crossing bridges and dealing with ghosts and she completely loses her temperament whenever braixen and pancham fight

you might not like her, but she definetly had flaws.

I think it's more the fact that a lot of these flaws were whitewashed and rather than having them as foibles and developing from them, she was just safeguarded by the plot and had them treated as unimportant facets. "Not good at battling? Well we'll just contrive the plot with bad opponents or deus ex machinas so she never loses a battle anyway. Mediocre skills in showcases? Well we'll have a Pokemon trip so her losses are always excused and no one genuinely outperforms her. Shy and cowardly? Well we'll just make those traits endearing and sweet rather than problematic. We'll keep SAYING she's the underdog without explaining why because that apparently doesn't make her invincible when she waltzes through everything. We'll SAY that Dragonite girl is strong without explaining why and showing any real difference in method or struggle to Serena solving this because that apparently doesn't make it look cheap." That was the problem with Serena; no context and demonstration. Just take the writers word on it. Look how much they exposition her inner struggle. Surely she can't be invincible and plot protected with all that drama.

Serena had the facets of a likeable character, but she was just too protected to be seen as growing or learning, at least compared to any of her predecessors (she may have one or two light moments of learning from a mistake but that does not look developed in a 140 episode arc). Sure May had some flukey moments in the contests as well, but they weren't her whole progression. She had instances she genuinely altered her style or was outperformed badly. It felt more like she was working and suffering for it and the cheap instances were just bad in-between moments. Serena skipped past those details.

 

[Soniman]

DatsRight since arguing with you about anything XY/Serena related is a endless lesson in futility I'm only gonna be brief since I wasn't arguing with you to begin with

Skipping the "the group in XY sucks" stuff I've heard a billion times and into the actual Serena stuff.

She lost her very first showcase, and only due to a fluke. The show treated it like a disaster she didn't clean house the very first time she entered and made her do so by her second because she was 'the new Serena' with a haircut but no different approach in her performance whatsoever

The "new approach" was that Serena actually got to perform this time.

because Serena having a flaw and being punished by the plot like all her predecessors is 'too mean').

Serena’s flaw is related something that her character isn't about. She's not a battler, she has nothing to do with battling, her goal and development is not dependent on battling. Serena sucking at battles is far character ruining. And I stand by what I said about the romance, yeah it helped push Serena but people who try to serve me some baloney about how her main traits, her main goal, is chasing after Ash are making **** up and I tune out, it's the quickest way to kill your own credibility and its something I see with depressing frequency on these fourms.

Winning with the same bare bones strategy you had from the start and then being useless the moment it fails is not hard working and developing. Yeah we saw some basic scenes of her training but did they have much context or amount to anything in her methods?

Kinda setting her up to fail here with those expectations arent ya? Complain that she doesnt train and she gets everything without any work. Oh she does train? w-well it doesnt matter anyway!1

Shy and cowardly? Well we'll just make those traits endearing and sweet rather than problematic.

jfc, Serena isnt shy first of all (and shouldnt even BE considered problematic by normal decent human standards unless it's literally crippling) and you just pulled "cowardly" out of nowhere.

 

[DatsRight]

DatsRight since arguing with you about anything XY/Serena related is a endless lesson in futility I'm only gonna be brief since I wasn't arguing with you to begin with

Skipping the "the group in XY sucks" stuff I've heard a billion times and into the actual Serena stuff.

It's so funny hearing the XY fan base getting so indignant about fans 'picking on' their favourite series within less than a month and not agreeing with their three years span of comparing it's brilliance to the supposed trite that was BW and other previous series. Really can't take what you dish out, can ya?

The "new approach" was that Serena actually got to perform this time.

Which only furthers the idea that tripping was the only thing stopping her winning from the very start.

Serena's flaw is related something that her character isn't about. She's not a battler, she has nothing to do with battling, her goal and development is not dependent on battling. Serena sucking at battles is far character ruining. And I stand by what I said about the romance, yeah it helped push Serena but people who try to serve me some baloney about how her main traits, her main goal, is chasing after Ash are making **** up and I tune out, it's the quickest way to kill your own credibility and its something I see with depressing frequency on these fourms.

Because they spent the past three years glorifying that aspect by having her thrash Team Rocket and contriving her other rare battles so she rarely even took a hit. It was not treated as something she was not specialised at, they just skewed the plot so she still usually looked good at it or it was never a real concern. Along with showcases being skewed in her favour, there is some reasoning to the crush being too overwhelming a trait in fan's eyes because it's the only thing she was having any real problems with throughout the series.

Kinda setting her up to fail here with those expectations arent ya? Complain that she doesnt train and she gets everything without any work. Oh she does train? w-well it doesnt matter anyway!1

Because it was superficial training as I said. "Oh try this move and try this one we've already perfected a million times before! Yeah, we're practicing and working so hard!" There was no context to them getting better in any way.

jfc, Serena isnt shy first of all (and shouldnt even BE considered problematic by normal decent human standards unless it's literally crippling) and you just pulled "cowardly" out of nowhere.

Serena panicked the moment she had an opponent that fought back and then froze or hid behind someone. In cases such as the Meowth battle she was an outright Miles Gloriosus, smugly dismissing her opponent and then cowering just because they didn't go down in one shot. Of course something always saved her from having repercussions and having to work past this.

 

[Soniman]

It's so funny hearing the XY fan base getting so indignant about fans 'picking on' their favourite series within less than a month and not agreeing with their three years span of comparing it's brilliance to the supposed trite that was BW and other previous series. Really can't take what you dish out, can ya?

When you see it all the time in every single topic you post in every single day no matter how far removed from XY said topics are it gets kinda annoying yes. XY isnt even my favorite saga, or second, and I dont hate BW, so lel.

Which only furthers the idea that tripping was the only thing stopping her winning from the very start.

Complete conjecture. Dawn lost her first then won her second, May lost her first then one her second, stop villianzing Serena for something completely normalized.

Because they spent the past three years glorifying that aspect by having her thrash Team Rocket and contriving her other rare battles so she rarely even took a hit.

Again you need top get over the fact that TR are not these hyper competent badasses you built up for yourself in your head. They're fodder, they're not measures of skill, stop acting like they are. I know you have a bias towards them but cmon man. Serena handles TR just as well as every single other companion

It was not treated as something she was not specialised at, they just skewed the plot so she still usually looked good at it or it was never a real concern. Along with showcases being skewed in her favour,

I just dont understand where this is comming from when she has never won a single normal trainer battle in this series on her own yet you still try to parade her around as if she's some god at it because she's able to handle some mooks.

there is some reasoning to the crush being too overwhelming a trait in fan's eyes because it's the only thing she was having any real problems with throughout the series.

People only see what they want to see, Serena did have legit problems that I guess were ignored because complaining about her crush is a easier target.

Because it was superficial training as I said. "Oh try this move and try this one we've already perfected a million times before! Yeah, we're practicing and working so hard!" There was no context to them getting better in any way.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont. I get formulating strategies or whatever but it's not like performances are heavily entrenched in that aspect like battles. Bottom line is that you keep going on about Serena never "wokring for anything" and crap and now you see that's not the case. Training is training.

Serena panicked the moment she had an opponent that fought back and then froze or hid behind someone. Even when that opponent was MEOWTH.

Oh so that one time way back in XY's early episodes that wasnt a relevant or major part of her character at all? Okay.

 

[Satomine Night]

So about that sense of realism. Well, taking the time to figure out what you want to do with your life that will make you happy is something people in the real world go through every day. It was a very realistic situation that she was in that I feel at times doesn't get appreciated in this sense. Then, you had her crush on Ash. Again, it's something that people have been through and the way Serena approached it was realistic. When Serena more less changed her goal to make people smile, that's a very admirable thing. It was a refreshing change of pace to have a character that people can actually relate to.

That is one of the things I really like about Serena. She was the first main character who didn't already know what she wanted to do or be. It's very realistic and makes her more identifiable. She left on a journey to discover what she wanted to do. Sure, initially, she just wanted to reunite with Ash, but the way I see it, wanting to reunite with Ash gave her the excuse she needed to leave home; and that's not entirely unrealistic, either.

As you said, the way she approached her crush on Ash was also realistic. Yes, she was shy about it, but I think some people forget that Pokémon is a Japanese product. In general, the Japanese are shyer about romance than Westerners. To be honest, I'm surprised she had the courage to kiss Ash in the end. That says a lot about her growth as a character.

The problem with that and in general when discussing Tripokalons was the writers never really explained how one's performance was better than the other, plus poor execution of the whole thing in general. We got a very vague detail from Palermo but it wasn't enough. I can honestly understand the negativity and hate for them, but in the end...Serena did receive development from them (which is most important) and now she's exploring Contests.

I agree, and IMHO, that is on the writers, not on the characters. As I've said before, Serena was a great character who suffers from not-so-stellar writing. We were never told why the audience preferred Serena's performances over her opponents'. However, as you said, Serena did receive development from them, and that's what's most important. I do wonder if Serena would be better received if Showcases in general had been better written. :/

 

[snorlax512]

So now it's moved over to here...ok, well here's my thoughts...AGAIN!

First off, Serena was a very special/different character. You had the sense of realism about her, a canon crush on the main protagonist, and a design change almost midway through the series. Those were the 3 things that stood out most in general I'd say. I personally liked her for other reasons though.

So about that sense of realism. Well, taking the time to figure out what you want to do with your life that will make you happy is something people in the real world go through every day. It was a very realistic situation that she was in that I feel at times doesn't get appreciated in this sense. Then, you had her crush on Ash. Again, it's something that people have been through and the way Serena approached it was realistic. When Serena more less changed her goal to make people smile, that's a very admirable thing. It was a refreshing change of pace to have a character that people can actually relate to.

Serena was mentally strong. She had to the courage to leave home and to not do what her mother wanted her to. She was challenged in a race by her mother where Serena fell down, but then got right back up and didn't quit. Her mother seen the determination in her which ended up being enough for her to continue on with her goal/dream. When she lost her first Tripokalon, she was devastated as we all seen (just like the other past Pokegirls, May and Dawn). However, unlike them, she conquered the stress of her first loss on her own with no help from anyone, except her Pokemon. Then she cuts her hair to show her resilence/change and to show that she's determined to become a stronger person and the past is behind her (that was a significant act). In Serena's 2nd Tripokalon, she's getting ready to do her performance and Jessie knocks her down which causes her dress/skirt to rip. Does Serena give up..? Nope. She remembers the words of Ash and fixes the situation on her own. In the 4th Tripokalon, Eevee falls during the performance, but she doesn't waver. Serena just smiles and assures Eevee that it's alright and they finish the performance together. In the 5th Tripokalon, Serena was the underdog. There was the town favorite (Amelia) and Serena stays calm, does her best, and ends up winning. Palermo explains to Amelia in a sense to why she lost and why Serena won. One of the bigger battles within herself, her feelings for Ash. In the end she lets them be known and now has no regrets on that front for the time being (it took courage to do what she did).

For the 2 main complaints I've seen a lot:

1. Serena not battling enough. Well technically her goal DID NOT require her to battle so why should she be forced to battle more than she has to (granted now that she's doing contests, she will). They've could've incorporated it when she battled Aria (called it a performer's battle I believe) when Fennekin evolved, but they didn't. Besides that, don't we get enough battling from Ash and others? Is Pokemon all about battling? No it isn't. It's a good way to learn about yourself and others through a battle and that much was shown on a few occasions with Serena. She battled Aria and we received Braixen while Serena gained confidence in the process. She battled the tree guy and Braixen learned to cope with the loss of her branch while Serena's bond with Braixen grew more. She tag battled twice and came up with an performance idea for Eevee and in the next one we received Sylveon which was an evolution she earned because of the way Serena bonded with Eevee. She then battled Ash and realized what her next move was going to be in reference to her journey. So there's multiple occasions where we seen nice development from just a minimal amout of battling and it didn't matter if they were interrupted in that sense. We also seen in the Pikachu battle and the battle with Ash that Serena can be competant.

2. Serena was a Mary-Sue? How is that even possible when she lost 3 times and in another occasion at the summer camp, her Pokemon was elimated from the team battle. Her losses weren't flukes or accidental. On two occasions, Serena made decisions that caused her to lose. She even said it herself that the first loss was her fault because she wasn't thinking about Fennekin next to her, she cut and made the ribbon too long. It was a costly mistake as we all saw and it was her very first Tripokalon where she was clearly nervous, give the girl a break. The other time is when Eevee fell during the 4th Tripokalon. Eevee clearly wasn't ready because of its shyness and inability to not focus when in the presence of large crowd/strangers, but Serena took a gamble and it was baptism by fire basically. These kinds of things happen, it's realistic. When competitors fall down in like a figure skating performance or mess up on a stage, is that a fluke or bad luck? No, it's maybe because of lack of concentration or just nerves (which was the case for Eevee in that performance). People need to stop looking at these instances as accidents or flukes because they do happen in sports and other competitions if you really think about it. The 3rd time she lost, obviously to Aria in the Master Class where she was out-performed apparantly.

The problem with that and in general when discussing Tripokalons was the writers never really explained how one's performance was better than the other, plus poor execution of the whole thing in general. We got a very vague detail from Palermo but it wasn't enough. I can honestly understand the negativity and hate for them, but in the end...Serena did receive development from them (which is most important) and now she's exploring Contests.

I can sit here and rattle off more stuff for the sake of argument, but do I really need to..? I've done this before and I'm honestly tired of it. She wasn't as bad as some people like to think or make her out to be. The fact is, she was a very sweet character who people could actually relate to and was well developed while being headstrong in the process. She cared for her Pokemon and friends a lot and doesn't really deserve the amount of negative criticism that gets constantly tossed her way. I actually like the fact that one of her goals is to make people smile because at least she's doing something to benefit others instead of trying to win a trophy or a cup.

Serena was a likeable character who the writers handled badly.
I understand your point about being relatable, but think about this from the viewers perspective. We waited a whole year of episodes before she found her goal. TV shows are for entertainment. Realism is nice, but not at the expense of a year of boredom and shorter development. Our daily lives are frankly boring anyways - I don't watch Ash jumping off cliffs and monsters beating each other up because I can relate to it.

I really admired Serena's determination, both in her showcases and her love life. The last episode was proof how much she developed, from a shy, indecisive girl into a confident, independent young woman. Her development and confidence at the end I really did like.

There were some major flaws though. Firstly, she never faced any real challenges throughout the saga. She decided to cut her hair and start fresh because of a very minor error coupled with rotten luck. It would be meaningful if she showed development post-haircut, but pretty much nothing changed. Her performances were practically identical, there was barely any development shown from her Pokemon training (unless you count Braixen getting a new stick), and she won all her keys because no one else was good. There was no rival who pushed her to her limit (like Paul, who really forced Ash to bring out his absolute best), only Aria defeated her but that is reasonable.

The other main problem I have is her personality. Especially post-haircut, her personality was rather bland, generic and cliché. She could be pretty much described as a "nice and sweet girl who was into cooking and fashion". This makes her character likeable (unlike Iris hehe) but also makes her the blandest out of all the pokegirls. Misty, May, Dawn and Iris were nice too, but they had some real spunk in the sense that they would challenge not only their rivals, but their friends as well. Serena probably had the least chemistry with Ash, it did not feel like they were "buddies", but rather uncomfortable and trying to be polite to each other.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I always root for Ash. He is my favourite protagonist. So if any female companion cares for Ash the most and sees Ash as her crush and inspiration, I'm obviously going to like her the most. This is the reason Serena is the female companion I like most. She cared for Ash probably the most- she never thought that Ash can have any flaws and even if Ash did something silly or wrong, she always focused on Ash's good character traits. Even when Ash wasn't himself in the winding woods episode, Serena showed some serious concern for him despite being initially angry with Ash yelling towards her. She was always inspired by Ash's never give up attitude and motivated herself with it. Out of all female companions, Serena had the strongest relation with Ash. Before parting with Ash, she said that Ash is her goal and kissed him! Because of all her crush, care and admiration for Ash, Serena will forever remain the best ever female companion to me.

 

[DatsRight]

Complete conjecture. Dawn lost her first then won her second, May lost her first then one her second, stop villianzing Serena for something completely normalised.

Because Dawn and May at least were OUTPERFORMED in their first loss as well as multiple other times. Other performers could be legitimately better than them. Serena could only be legitimately defeated by the CHAMPION.

Again you need top get over the fact that TR are not these hyper competent badasses you built up for yourself in your head. They're fodder, they're not measures of skill, stop acting like they are. I know you have a bias towards them but cmon man. Serena handles TR just as well as every single other companion

The thing is however Team Rocket were boosted as being a challenge at the start, and Serena blatantly had problems stopping them when basic cheap shots couldn't help. Ash and even Clemont had plenty moments they had to put up a real battle to stop them. Yet at some sudden point this devolved into suddenly Serena thrashing them at every turn. There was no transitional point where she was getting better against them but still having to improve her setup and struggle through it like the others. It made it apparent they had just dumbed TR down to make her look competent. At the end of the day TR are the main antagonists and who the twerps demonstrate their own competence against almost every episode. Yes they usually are curb stomped all the time by the end, but it usually at least takes a while of training before the other twerps get to that level, but for Serena she just tried the same strategy from the start over and over until one time it finally started always working.

I just dont understand where this is comming from when she has never won a single normal trainer battle in this series on her own yet you still try to parade her around as if she's some god at it because she's able to handle some mooks.

Maybe not quite accurately stated, what I mean was every battle she had was contrived so she looked strong or was miraculously ended when it was obvious her team wouldn't be the ones dishing out all the damage anymore. In other words the battles were played out so long as she didn't actually look weak or unskilled.

Oh so that one time way back in XY's early episodes that wasnt a relevant or major part of her character at all? Okay.

That her lack of improvisation and strategy didn't become relevant to her character and she just stayed at the same static level of skill and making the same error up to the Team Flare arc? Okay.

 

[Frozocrone]

Animation was pretty good.
Serena could have been written a lot better. At times it felt like you could remove her from XY and almost nothing would change plot wise.
Ash was pretty stale outside of battles. I can appreciate some people want a mature Ash, but to me he was boring, a generic shonen hero.
Clemont became a non-factor after the gym. Shame really.
Bonnie was probably the best character, although why she was more important than Ash in the TF arc I don't know.
Practically given Bond Phenomenon for no explained reason (although I liked how they had to work to master the form, even if it seemed rushed).
Rivals were woefully lacking development and didn't provide any sort of struggle against the protagonists, making their achievements hollow.
League was terrible.
Team Flare Arc was pretty well done.

But I had fun watching it.

 

[Soniman]

For as much of a hard time XY's Ash is given around here I really do feel like a saga like this was needed for him. Just a saga where he's allowed to seriously be a trainer and focus hard on his own goals, maybe they hyper focused on that aspect a little harder then needed and his other traits were downplayed a bit (not gone, just downplayed), not to mention getting the highest amount of "cool Ash imagery" in one saga which im particuarly grateful for. And hey, the Greninja arc was pretty good at least

At the end of the day I guess he'll be remembered more fondly then BW Ash but the praise ends there lmao