Pokémon the Series XY | Pokémon the Series XY&Z

[DatsRight]

In your opinion. Opinion=/=Fact. It Bond Phenomenon arc strongly reflected its strong bond with Ash and their will to get stronger. Also check out their emotions in the episode it was released.

I could say the same about yours. And I never said it wasn't my opinion. Do I have to really add 'In my opinion' to every comment I make in a review thread like someone actually expects it to be fact?

I didn't get anything from the episode or their 'bond', it was cliche and blandly done to me, I've seen it done a million times more depth fully in this show and others.

I get more from Ash and Pikachu's Z Move bond from the first two measly episodes of Sun and Moon than I did any of AshGreninja, simply because the two characters had personality and bonding moments that didn't feel like two pieces of cardboard. Another 'take our word on it' aspect from the XY writing team.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I could say the same about yours.

I didn't get anything from the episode or their 'bond', it was cliche and blandly done, I've seen it done a million times more depth fully in this show and others.

I get more from Ash and Pikachu's Z Move bond from the first two measly episodes of Sun and Moon than I did any of AshGreninja, simply because the two characters had personality and bonding moments that didn't feel like two pieces of cardboard.

That is because you hate XY for reasons I don't know. I don't also like XY's negative aspects like making Ash come so close to winning the League and then making him lose, portraying Alain as an OP gary stu etc. But the positive moments of XY are far more than the negative ones. I'll always remember the enjoyable moments XY gave me in Amourshipping, Ash's maturity and competence, Ash-Greninja arc and the Team Flare arc.

 

[DatsRight]

That is because you hate XY for resons I don't know. I don't also like XY's negative aspects like making Ash come so close to winning the League and then making him lose, portraying Alain as an OP gary stu etc. But the positive moments of XY are far more than the negative ones. I'll always remember the enjoyable moments XY gave me in Amourshipping, Ash's maturity and competence, Ash-Greninja arc and the Team Flare arc.

*ahem* In your opinion I do.

I never said I HATED XY outright, just it was VERY flawed and bittersweet. It had some good episodes and concepts, but execution just made the whole ordeal frustrating, it could have been so much better to me. I wouldn't obsess with it's flaws if I thought it was just all out horrible, I could just accept it wasn't for me. XY was an idea that could have been a joy to watch that ended up executed pretentiously and hap hazardously, and that is FAR more infuriating.

 

[345ash-greninja]

*ahem* In your opinion I do.

I never said I HATED XY outright, just it was VERY flawed and bittersweet. It had some good episodes and concepts, but execution just made the whole ordeal frustrating, it could have been so much better to me.

It could have been a lot better. But everything can't be perfect. But I think XY as the closest to being perfect. I don't know why you're pointing out some pointing out some positive aspects of XY as the negative ones.

If you're saying that Ash-Greninja arc which had so much depth as a dull arc and you've seen more depth in Pikachu's Z-move arc in two episodes, then I'm saying that I found out more flaws in SM in the two episodes than I found out in the entire XY series.

 

[DatsRight]

It could have been a lot better. But everything can't be perfect. But I think XY as the closest to being perfect. I don't know why you're pointing out some pointing out some positive aspects of XY as the negative ones.

In your opinion they're the positive ones.

If you're saying that Ash-Greninja arc which had so much depth as a dull arc and you've seen more depth in Pikachu's Z-move arc in two episodes, then I'm saying that I found out more flaws in SM in the two episodes than I found out in the entire XY series.

Then by all means complain about it, but don't expect me not to complain about XY just because you think it's the best.

 

[Navin]

I hate throwing around "Sue/Stu" and "DEM" terms as much as anyone else, but Serena was a near-Sue at one point, and if she had won the Master Class, would have been a definite Sue. Is that a controversial opinion? Sure. But I think there was justification behind it.

 

[345ash-greninja]

In your opinion they're the positive ones.



Then by all means complain about it, but don't expect me not to complain about XY just because you think it's the best.

Then give reasons for why you think XY was poor. In SM I have seen the art style degrade a lot, especially Ash's appearance, his attitude has also become goofy and idiotic unlike Ash's mature self in XY. Not to mention the trend of 20 years of battling gyms has also ended. I have stated this reasons when I pointed out SM's negative aspects. Tell me how the Ash-Greninja arc 'lacked depth' and how Greninja was a 'dull ace'.

 

[DatsRight]

Then give reasons for why you think XY was poor. In SM I have seen the art style degrade a lot, especially Ash's appearance, his attitude has also become goofy and idiotic unlike Ash's mature self in XY. Not to mention the trend of 20 years of battling gyms has also ended. I have stated this reasons when I pointed out SM's negative aspects. Tell me how the Ash-Greninja arc 'lacked depth' and how Greninja was a 'dull ace'.

I thought I went through my beefs with XY in enough detail but fine. Ash Greninja lacked depth because the two characters were so bland, basically a bastion of positive 'badass' qualities but little else. Froakie had a half interesting character with some basic foibles and quirks, but as he evolved anything not serious and badass was thrown down the toilet. Not to mention he was usually excluded from any interactions besides battling, which made his bond even less believable compared to say Pikachu who was out of his ball and having plenty of resting time interacting with Ash.

I felt something with the likes of OS Ash and Charizard because they were two flawed and fallible characters who still managed to pull together. This was something that continuously bugged me about XY. It's not just the 'no flaws = no character' complaint. Bonds can not always be developed with just the niceness. You have to go through the bad ugly times as well. Serena couldn't stand Ash the one time he acted negative around her and even admitted she gained dangerously high expectations of him because all their interactions had been so absurdly pleasant and idealised. It shown how shallow their chemistry actually had been and yet it didn't really continue from that, she just got her perfect Ash back.

 

[Xenon Blue]

Then give a reasons for why you think XY was poor. In SM I have seen the art style degrade a lot, especially Ash's appearance, his attitude has also become goofy and idiotic unlike Ash's mature self. Not to mention the trend of 20 years of battling gyms has also ended. I have stated this reasons when I pointed out SM's negative aspects. Tell me how the Ash-Greninja arc 'lacked depth' and how Greninja was a 'dull ace'.

We already hammered on this aspect a lot. You just decide to either ignore it or deny it. I have already given up on cracking through your stubbornness, so I won't contribute to this. It's your opinion, fine, and we can't change that. But the point of a discussion is to gain insight on a subjective topic, not to get all defensive when something you like is getting critiqued on and then saying "opinion this, opinion that", thinking then people would suddenly stop critiquing. It's not contributing to anything, nor does it give entertainment to anyone.

 

[345ash-greninja]

We already hammered on this aspect a lot. You just decide to either ignore it or deny it. I have already given up on cracking through your stubbornness, so I won't contribute to this. It's your opinion, fine, and we can't change that. But the point of a discussion is to gain insight on a subjective topic, not to get all defensive when something you like is getting critiqued on and then saying "opinion this, opinion that", thinking then people would suddenly stop critiquing. It's not contributing to anything, nor does it give entertainment to anyone.

Yes, but DatsRight is saying that the Ash-Greninja arc lacked depth despite the fact that it had such a long build up. He is saying that Greninja was a dull ace and it relied on power and not on speed. Tell me how that's true.

 

[Soniman]

Still more depth than almost all of XY, btu IMo it hasn't as much as depth as Infernape's, Charizard's or even Pignite's arcs

Pignite, seriously?

Yes because abandoned fire type starter is so unique and original and was never an arc we havent seen before (and done better)

I'll need to rewatch the episodes, but I can't see the depth gained other than a snipet of backstory.

Another text book case of other sagas doing it and its fine but XY does it its a problem. Ash's arcs never involve huge personality changes, its very gradual with cumulative effects over time, his core personality stays the same, its ideals and perspective that changes. Ash and Greninja had their arc, Ash learned not to be so hyper focused on strength, he referred back to it during the Sawyer match, and Ash Greninja mastered fotm is visual representation that the arc had lasting effects

get more from Ash and Pikachu's Z Move bond from the first two measly episodes of Sun and Moon than I did any of AshGreninja, simply because the two characters had personality and bonding moments that didn't feel like two pieces of cardboard.

20 years of history between the two characters probably had something to do with that to :///

im just saying yall already get on Ash's case for everything else he did, didnt do and acted during XY, lets not suddenly try to turn his one arc into some awful mistake because there wasnt enough material to drag him with

 

[snorlax512]

I thought I went through my beefs with XY in enough detail but fine. Ash Greninja lacked depth because the two characters were so bland, basically a bastion of positive 'badass' qualities but little else. Froakie had a half interesting character with some basic foibles and quirks, but as he evolved anything not serious and badass was thrown down the toilet. Not to mention he was usually excluded from any interactions besides battling, which made his bond even less believable compared to say Pikachu who was out of his ball and having plenty of resting time interacting with Ash.

I felt something with the likes of OS Ash and Charizard because they were two flawed and fallible characters who still managed to pull together. This was something that continuously bugged me about XY. It's not just the 'no flaws = no character' complaint. Bonds can not always be developed with just the niceness. You have to go through the bad ugly times as well. Serena couldn't stand Ash the one time he acted negative around her and even admitted she gained dangerously high expectations of him because all their interactions had been so absurdly pleasant and idealised. It shown how shallow their chemistry actually had been and yet it didn't really continue from that, she just got her perfect Ash back.

I think you forgot about the Ash-Greninja arc. To me, that was the most personality any of Ash's Pokemon has shown because Greninja almost felt human. Unlike Charizard/Infernape who had random temper and attitude problems, Greninja recognised Ash's flaws and left to sit on a tree and comtemplate what went wrong between them. He was doing the exact same thing as Ash, like a human. The handshake at the end as well -- it felt like Greninja was an equal.

Although this was one of the few times that Ash and Greninja showed character and development, it was deeper than any flaw he had faced before. Ash was obsessed with power and activating the form to the point where he forgot what made them strong in the first place, and why Froakie chose Ash as its trainer for the first place. It was very well executed, and the scene where Greninja crouched down and rolled his pokeball towards Ash as a gesture of starting their relationship anew was very touching imo

If you think about it, all of Ash's aces lose personality when they go into their final stages. At least Greninja was the most badass out of them all

 

[345ash-greninja]

I think you forgot about the Ash-Greninja arc. To me, that was the most personality any of Ash's Pokemon has shown because Greninja almost felt human. Unlike Charizard/Infernape who had random temper and attitude problems, Greninja recognised Ash's flaws and left to sit on a tree and comtemplate what went wrong between them. He was doing the exact same thing as Ash, like a human. The handshake at the end as well -- it felt like Greninja was an equal.

Although this was one of the few times that Ash and Greninja showed character and development, it was deeper than any flaw he had faced before. Ash was obsessed with power and activating the form to the point where he forgot what made them strong in the first place, and why Froakie chose Ash as its trainer for the first place. It was very well executed, and the scene where Greninja crouched down and rolled his pokeball towards Ash as a gesture of starting their relationship anew was very touching imo

If you think about it, all of Ash's aces lose personality when they go into their final stages. At least Greninja was the most badass out of them all

That's exactly the case. Ash and Greninja had quite some character development in their arc. Yet I don't know why DatsRight is saying that Greninja was a 'dull ace' and the Ash-Greninja arc 'lacked depth'.

 

[snorlax512]

That's exactly the case. Ash and Greninja had quite some character development in their arc. Yet I don't know why DatsRight is saying that Greninja was a 'dull ace' and the Ash-Greninja arc 'lacked depth'.

Well, there is a reason why Greninja was voted as the most popular Pokemon in Japan lol. AG was what made XY&Z so epic.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Well, there is a reason why Greninja was voted as the most popular Pokemon in Japan lol. AG was what made XY&Z so epic.

Exactly. Ash-Greninja was the coolest and the most badass Pokemon Ash had ever captured. The Bond Phenomenon arc reflected that it was a very strong character as well.

 

[phanpycross]

Well, there is a reason why Greninja was voted as the most popular Pokemon in Japan lol. AG was what made XY&Z so epic.

*Taken during the Greninja arc.

Take it this friday, and it will properly be Rowlet.

 

[Soniman]

*Taken during the Greninja arc.

Take it this friday, and it will properly be Rowlet.

But its to cute, people in the polls seem to prefer the #bad***** mons

 

[DatsRight]

I think you forgot about the Ash-Greninja arc. To me, that was the most personality any of Ash's Pokemon has shown because Greninja almost felt human. Unlike Charizard/Infernape who had random temper and attitude problems, Greninja recognised Ash's flaws and left to sit on a tree and comtemplate what went wrong between them. He was doing the exact same thing as Ash, like a human. The handshake at the end as well -- it felt like Greninja was an equal.

Although this was one of the few times that Ash and Greninja showed character and development, it was deeper than any flaw he had faced before. Ash was obsessed with power and activating the form to the point where he forgot what made them strong in the first place, and why Froakie chose Ash as its trainer for the first place. It was very well executed, and the scene where Greninja crouched down and rolled his pokeball towards Ash as a gesture of starting their relationship anew was very touching imo

One decent moment of characterisation doesn't make up for 40+ episodes of utter blandness setting up to it. That's like saying Serena' last limelight episode totally made up for her completely underwhelming character arc throughout the other 139 episodes. It was nice but did everything else have to lack entertainment value?

If you think about it, all of Ash's aces lose personality when they go into their final stages. At least Greninja was the most badass out of them all

Greninja got him to the finals (though no more so than Pikachu did), but otherwise I'd say it was superficial how much stronger he was and how much he bonded above the previous ones. The series' better animation and more grandiose nature just made it flashier.

While the personality loss is indeed a recurring problem (eg. Sylveon and Noivern had similar problems this series) it's more glaring due to how silly Greninja is in concept. Froakie at least played on the whole 'frog ninja power' thing tongue in cheek (unintended pun) so was given some personality. Despite the even sillier looks, they actually tried to play Greninja utterly seriously.

 

[345ash-greninja]

One decent moment of characterisation doesn't make up for 40+ episodes of utter blandness setting up to it. That's like saying Serena' last limelight episode totally made up for her completely underwhelming character arc throughout the other 139 episodes. It was nice but did everything else have to lack entertainment value?

The whole Ash-Greninja arc had characterization. There were always doubts Ash and Greninja about mastering the form. They had to go through a lot of trial and error to master the form. The endured pain and hardship for doing that. There was also a depression arc where Ash was just focusing more on the transformation and power instead of the form. But Ash and Greninja overcame that, mastered the form, and vowed to start from the beginning. The arc had great depth. You're just acting like that it's a fact that the Ash-Greninja arc was bland.

 

[DatsRight]

The whole Ash-Greninja arc had characterization. There were always doubts Ash and Greninja about mastering the form. They had to go through a lot of trial and error to master the form. The endured pain and hardship for doing that. There was also a depression arc where Ash was just focusing more on the transformation and power instead of the form. But Ash and Greninja overcame that, mastered the form, and vowed to start from the beginning. The arc had great depth. You're just acting like that it's a fact that the Ash-Greninja arc was bland.

You're acting like it's a fact that they weren't.

I found it bland because the characters' lack of vibrancy and foibles meant it was mostly acted out stiffly or through exposition with no real personality distinction. I got things were happening but the whole 'Ash focusing on power' was underwhelming because his character was still ace-ish and carefree most of the time (oh, wow he handed Serena his coat a little rudely, such a new found bad attitude ) and Greninja still acted like an expressionless piece of cardboard. Like a lot of things in XY, lifeless execution ruined it.