Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

[Genaller]

Whether you expect a punch to the face or not it's still going to hurt,using Dragon Ball as an example was pointless when the examples you used are different.

I can't believe you're justifying how Charizard lost the way it did when it clearly could have done better.

Trust me getting punched when not expecting it hurts way more (I speak from experience).

 

[Xenon Blue]

All this proved was that they nerfed the hell out of Charizard to make Pikachu look good against Regice.

Like I said, Charizard wasn't nerfed, he was just at the wrong end of the stick. Even the strongest Pokemon have their moments of losing, especially against a Pokemon like Dusclops, where Brandon is fighting fire with water. Losing once out of many =/= nerfed. If anything, Charizard losing gave Squirtle and Bulbasaur some shine, although they hardly needed any redemption. Charizard already had it's moment vs Articuno anyways, so there's no shame.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Trust me getting punched when not expecting it hurts way more (I speak from experience).

I still stand by what I said so go ahead and continue drawing out futile examples.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Like I said, Charizard wasn't nerfed, he was just at the wrong end of the stick. Even the strongest Pokemon have their moments of losing, especially against a Pokemon like Dusclops, where Brandon is fighting fire with water. Losing once out of many =/= nerfed. If anything, Charizard losing gave Squirtle and Bulbasaur some shine, although they hardly needed any redemption. Charizard already had it's moment vs Articuno anyways, so there's no shame.

Losing to a weaker pokemon is nerfing bro.

 

[snorlax512]

It's like I said, it's starting to turn out to be Chard X debate as I said. You entire assessment argument is based around Charizard. Not even on Greninja at this point. Being able to damage is not the same from defeating said Pokemon.

Well, how else can we compare two pokemon who has never battled before? How they fared against a common enemy is the only way

I see. So there was also no "battle marks" on Zard X after receiving that vicious looking shuriken at the end of the match. I guess AG isn't an E4 after all, right?

It didn't have battle marks because the writers used staggering as an indicating that it was about to faint.

However, when the writers decide to put in battle marks it is always when the pokemon is exhausted. The Charizard before facing Malva had battle marks all over, yet the one before facing AG was completely fresh.

Dude, It literally picks up showing when Zard X makes the initial attack on M-Alakazam.

I'm talking about after the cut scene. We have no idea what knocked M-Alakazam down, even more so if he was in the same position. Also, what was the point of the cut scene then?

Even if it wasn't one hit (that's all it took against Houndoom) and it was two hits instead it still says his opponents were significantly weaker than Charizard X and stood no chance.

Of course they stood no chance one on one, but battling 9 is going to make any pokemon tired. Most battles don't last more than 2 clean hits anyway. Ash's Swellow one-shot Donphan and Hariyama in the Hoenn league, but it was the hard battling to create that opening which made him extremely exhausted and fell easily to Metagross. Mega-venusaur caused MCX significant trouble, even if it got to two shotted.

Even if somehow Alain defeated all the other opponents by taking only one hit per battle, that is enough to make any pokemon tired, that is presuming they survive.

To show us, Alain is by no means a standard/normal trainer. Alluding he will appear in the main series, etc. It didn't make "any" sense for M-Houdoom to go down to one hit against M-Charizard but it did.

So they would create the impression that Alain defeated 9 respectable opponents then an E4 member, when in reality he faced one tough opponent and one-shotted the other 8 without taking any damage before facing Malva? I'm sorry, but they might as well have Alain battle only Malva because it would make no difference.

Actually, Charizard also landed a point-blank flamethrower when it was pinned down. And as I've said before, a lot of pokemon battles only last two/three hits, but it is the gruesome battling in-between which tires the pokemon out and allowed MCX to finish it off with Blast burn.

This isn't what I'm arguing, Zard X looked fine before it battled Malva. I understand the point Zard was fresher when it fought Greninja than it was against Houndoom. That point hardly proves AG is stronger than the rest of E4's if takes Charizard to the point to use his finishing blow(and OHKO's E4 levels/calibers with it) against an opponent that won't go down to his other moves. All I'm saying AG isn't stronger than all of the Kalos E4(when we haven't seen the rest of their strength), he never defeated any of the E4's or champion Aces.

It wasn't about to die, but it clearly looked tired, or else there would be no point putting in the battle marks. I don't understand how you can say MCX was not tired after battling 9 ME trainers by assuming they were all rubbish. Obviously none of them would be on the same level as MCX, but each of them would chip away a little bit, and cumulatively is enough to make MCX exhausted. So, AG facing a fresh MCX and bringing it to the verge of fainting makes it very close to MCX's level. Malva is not, because she was facing a MCX who had battled 9 ME trainers prior and still couldn't beat him. I have no doubts that if AG were in Malva's place, MCX would have been K.Oed.

Stop frontin', It was still close to fainting nonetheless(Malva vs Charizard) is my point. Whether or not AG faced a fresher Zard both were still able to bring it down to red and still lose in the end(even though there wasn't any viable "battle marks" on Zard Xvs AG at the end of the match). All it seems Ash-Greninja was a bit more close to putting Zard down than Houndoom(Even though Charizard roughly used its strongest attack against them both). I don't see how that makes AG above ALL of the E4 when we have seen the rest of the E4 strength. And AG still wasn't able to defeat Charizard.

Look, there are gonna be slight assumptions made since AG didn't battle everyone, but I assume Malva is just the average E4 trainer, and all E4 trainers are around the same level. I can say AG is better than the average E4 mega ace if you want.

What did M-Houndoom do again?

Regardless, Taking Ash's entire Kalos squad + AG + MCX is enough to label Lysander's Gyrados as way beyond E4 level.

Fair enough. I still don't see how Metagross is higher than low tier-2 though. Pikachu vs Tyranitar was a pretty steady match with a basic chronology, so Alain won't be that pumped up, especially since the match just started. By the time Metagross came around both trainers were far more pumped up, and the match itself was more emotional, as Alain had Pikachu locked down, but tables turned quickly. Like you said though, this is heavily dependent on how we interpreted the scene.

Since Pikachu took zero damage against Tyrannitar, being able to push him to his limit should be enough to label Metagross high tier-2 at least. Pikachu was struggling to use attacks after that. Also, I would say that his weakness to due to the design of his species, something Alain can't change. As long as Alain doesn't choose Metagross against Pikachu sized opponents, it would be a real powerhouse.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Regardless, Taking Ash's entire Kalos squad + AG + MCX is enough to label Lysander's Gyrados as way beyond E4 level.

Mega Gyarados is probably around Champion level or maybe even more.

 

[BladexFade]

To 35ash-greninja,
[spoil]

]Blast Burn and the Giant Orange shuriken were clearly even in power. The fiery part and the watery part were absolutely same in the collision. MC-X did have more resistance, and so it survived.

The two attacks may look like it was even but clearly Blast Burn was a bit stronger than the Orange WS. Using the size of an explosion is poor and insufficient, and thus will delude you and others. Zard X has more endurance than Ash-Greninja, true.

Type immunities don't always count in the anime, otherwise Mega Sceptile would have surely survived the large Water Shuriken from Ash-Greninja.

This wasn't even my point. You just worded it wrong or thought I knew you were referring the word endurance with high resistance. But eyes, Charizard does have higher endurance than Ash-Greninja. I thought you were implying type immunities.

The collision between the Giant Orange shuriken and Blast Burn was clearly even. So it's clearly evident that if Mega Houndoom didn't survive Blast Burn, it wouldn't also survive the Giant Orange shuriken.

It was never mentioned or implied both attacks were even. There is also no proof AG can tank or survive from Zard X's Blast Burn if it were to connect. And it certainly showed it couldn't at the end of the match. Again, that doesn't prove AG is above E4. Unless will have people saying Lysandre is the strongest non-champion.

And cancelling out MC-X's Blast Burn once completely is quite a feat. Mega Houndoom can't do that.

I'll ask again, what moveset does Malva has that's too specifically counter Blast Burn? Clearly not one of the Champion doesn't have a counter to cancel out Blast Burn but to tank it or avoid it.

Bringing Steven's Mega Metagross is irrelevant here as it has the resistance to survive Blast Burn(so obviously it would also survive the Giant Orange shuriken). Mega Houndoom doesn't have that resistance. And Ash-Greninja finally fainted because of the huge collision between the two moves, not only because of Blast Burn, while Mega Houndoom got destroyed only by Blast Burn. It's not that Blast Burn overpowered the Giant Orange shuriken, there was a huge collision which led to MC-X surviving barely and Ash-Greninja fainting.

Here we go again with this ABC logic.
My point about Steven's Mega Metagross hold relevance in this discussion whether you like it or not. It is to show you how poor and inadequate your claim was AG is stronger than M-Houndoom because it was able to cancel BB by using by making its own alternative version BB using Water Shuriken style. Whether or not Steven's Metagross shown high resistance to BB, it surely does not have counter to cancel BB, and it obviously wouldn't put AG above Steven's Metagross because AG was able to cancel out BB. That is my point. My point is your point is flawed out. You either tank it, protect yourself or cancel it out like what Ash-Greninja did. Point, blank, period.

Water Shuriken clearly broke through and knocked Mega Gardevoir into a distance. Mega Gardevoir was laying on the ground after that. How are you so sure that Mega Houndoom can do that?

We won't know unless they battle. Just because A defeated C does not mean B can defeat C.[/spoil]

To snorlax512,
[spoil]Again, Your argument is starting to shift around to other characters that have no business. Whether or not the Charizard was fresh out the Pokeball, AG still couldn't defeat 'em at the end. That doesn't even put him above any of the E4. But by going with your logic, Lysandre is >Champion(s) because it pulled a better feat than Lance, Cynthia, Alder, Diantha and even Steven.

I'm talking about after the cut scene. We have no idea what knocked M-Alakazam down, even more so if he was in the same position. Also, what was the point of the cut scene then?

Occam Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the right answer. Both scenes were happening at the same time. With Steven chatting with Lysandre and Alain facing the unknown Alakazam trainer.

Of course they stood no chance one on one, but battling 9 is going to make any pokemon tired.

Unless stated, this can not be said for all Pokemon.

Most battles don't last more than 2 clean hits anyway. Ash's Swellow one-shot Donphan and Hariyama in the Hoenn league, but it was the hard battling to create that opening which made him extremely exhausted and fell easily to Metagross. Mega-Venu caused MCX significant trouble, even if it got to two shotted.

Even if somehow Alain defeated all the other opponents by taking only one hit per battle, that is enough to make any pokemon tired, that is presuming they survive.

That's them, not Alain's Charizard. Alain's Charizard is mainly brute force and has a lot of pain intolerance. It wouldn't even dodge a hydro pump if it had the chance of dodging it, instead, it would cut through it(or fly into it) and come right at you instead.

We don't even know if it took any damage in it other battles besides the one time he potion healed up his Charizard.

So they would create the impression that Alain defeated 9 respectable opponents then an E4 member, when in reality he faced one tough opponent and one-shotted the other 8 without taking any damage before facing Malva? I'm sorry, but they might as well have Alain battle only Malva because it would make no difference.

Actually, Charizard also landed a point-blank flamethrower when it was pinned down. And as I've said before, a lot of pokemon battles only last two/three hits, but it is the gruesome battling in-between which tires the pokemon out and allowed MCX to finish it off with Blast burn.

We don't even know if the other 8 or 7 were even tuff enough for Alain's Charizard to handle. That's your assumption. They were just random trainers that were probably picked off the street to challenge Alain's Charizard. Charizard clearly showed the difference between in power/strength against the first trainer and likely the rest. It seemed fine afterward, it didn't even look like it was tired.

Umm, no, the flamethrower wasn't even exactly point-blank and it surely didn't make any contact with M-Houndoom, especially when we saw it ducking and dodging it.

You're right that most Pokemon battle ends either in two or three hits, only if that Pokemon is significantly stronger and/or slightly above that said Pokemon.

It wasn't about to die, but it clearly looked tired, or else there would be no point putting in the battle marks. I don't understand how you can say MCX was not tired after battling 9 ME trainers by assuming they were all rubbish. Obviously none of them would be on the same level as MCX, but each of them would chip away a little bit, and cumulatively is enough to make MCX exhausted. So, AG facing a fresh MCX and bringing it to the verge of fainting makes it very close to MCX's level.

It didn't look tired, it looked fine afterward. Even if we assume Charizard was taking little damage after the next battle, we still don't know how much/effective the oppossing side were dealing damage to Charizard; it still ended taking out his opponents down with little effort when his attacks made contact.

Malva is not, because she was facing a MCX who had battled 9 ME trainers prior and still couldn't beat him. I have no doubts that if AG were in Malva's place, MCX would have been K.Oed.

Not really. Obviously, current Ash-Greninja in its full form would be able to take out that version Alain's Charizard back then. But replace old version Charizard with Current version Charizard would steamroll much harder with an easy roll against those 9 trainers, and still would manage a win against current AG but it would put up a fight.

Look, there are gonna be slight assumptions made since AG didn't battle everyone, but I assume Malva is just the average E4 trainer, and all E4 trainers are around the same level. I can say AG is better than the average E4 mega ace if you want.

Malva may very well be an average E4 member, perhaps even the weakest out of the Kalos E4.

I don't believe all E4 members are equal in terms of power, It makes no sense for them to be, other than them being equal in terms of skills and strategies etc.

Regardless, Taking Ash's entire Kalos squad + AG + MCX is enough to label Lysander's Gyrados as way beyond E4 level.

So exactly Gyarados never took on Malva's Houndoom. That doesn't necessarily put it above E4 unless you are going to say some ridiculous as Gyarados is stronger than even the champion(s) Ace Pokemon because it withstood MCX+AG+Ash's Kalos team(when M-Gyarados didn't even look like it broke a sweat against Ash's Kalos team), which its feat is weighed more than what any champion has ever done. Unless I'm missing something, that's what you would call abusing the power scale.[/spoil]

 

[GLTSRY]

Guys, this discussion is going nowhere, because of one particular reason: There is no absolute truth regarding power levels out there, neither in an anime with fluctuating power levels, nor in real life sports.

We can all pretty much agree on that ZardX, AG and the E4 aces are more or less on the same level. So, in a battle between them, just minor details could change the outcome, like the structure of the battlefield, weather conditions, critical hits etc.

Just because M-Houndoom lost against ZardX doesn't mean that it's automatically weaker than it, it's still on the same level, just unfit to battle that specific Pokemon. Just look at the OU-tier: Ferrothorn gets stomped by Heatran, because it's not designed to combat it. However, this doesn't make it an UU Mon. As a matter of fact, Ferrothorn can easily take on Azumarill, a Pokemon against which Heatran would have a hard time.

AG lost to ZardX because the latter one has more bulk and hits harder, but I'm pretty sure it would win or at least draw against M-Guardevoir, because it's a glass cannon.

 

[BladexFade]

Guys, this discussion is going nowhere, because of one particular reason: There is no absolute truth regarding power levels out there, neither in an anime with fluctuating power levels, nor in real life sports.

We can all pretty much agree on that ZardX, AG and the E4 aces are more or less on the same level. So, in a battle between them, just minor details could change the outcome, like the structure of the battlefield, weather conditions, critical hits etc.

Just because M-Houndoom lost against ZardX doesn't mean that it's automatically weaker than it, it's still on the same level, just unfit to battle that specific Pokemon. Just look at the OU-tier: Ferrothorn gets stomped by Heatran, because it's not designed to combat it. However, this doesn't make it an UU Mon. As a matter of fact, Ferrothorn can easily take on Azumarill, a Pokemon against which Heatran would have a hard time.

I can agree with this. Just because you beat one E4 from a different region(or even champion) doesn't denote you can beat them all since there are many aspects and things to take into consideration and comes into play: The trainer, battling style, environment, ability, power, endurance, type advantage, and etc.

I wonder how different the outcome would've been if Houndoom had not resorted to Mega evolvolution.

 

[345ash-greninja]

To 35ash-greninja,
[spoil]
The two attacks may look like it was even but clearly Blast Burn was a bit stronger than the Orange WS. Using the size of an explosion is poor and insufficient, and thus will delude you and others. Zard X has more endurance than Ash-Greninja, true.


This wasn't even my point. You just worded it wrong or thought I knew you were referring the word endurance with high resistance. But eyes, Charizard does have higher endurance than Ash-Greninja. I thought you were implying type immunities.


It was never mentioned or implied both attacks were even. There is also no proof AG can tank or survive from Zard X's Blast Burn if it were to connect. And it certainly showed it couldn't at the end of the match. Again, that doesn't prove AG is above E4. Unless will have people saying Lysandre is the strongest non-champion.


I'll ask again, what moveset does Malva has that's too specifically counter Blast Burn? Clearly not one of the Champion doesn't have a counter to cancel out Blast Burn but to tank it or avoid it.


Here we go again with this ABC logic.
My point about Steven's Mega Metagross hold relevance in this discussion whether you like it or not. It is to show you how poor and inadequate your claim was AG is stronger than M-Houndoom because it was able to cancel BB by using by making its own alternative version BB using Water Shuriken style. Whether or not Steven's Metagross shown high resistance to BB, it surely does not have counter to cancel BB, and it obviously wouldn't put AG above Steven's Metagross because AG was able to cancel out BB. That is my point. My point is your point is flawed out. You either tank it, protect yourself or cancel it out like what Ash-Greninja did. Point, blank, period.


We won't know unless they battle. Just because A defeated C does not mean B can defeat C.[/spoil]

To snorlax512,
[spoil]Again, Your argument is starting to shift around to other characters that have no business. Whether or not the Charizard was fresh out the Pokeball, AG still couldn't defeat 'em at the end. That doesn't even put him above any of the E4. But by going with your logic, Lysandre is >Champion(s) because it pulled a better feat than Lance, Cynthia, Alder, Diantha and even Steven.

Occam Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the right answer. Both scenes were happening at the same time. With Steven chatting with Lysandre and Alain facing the unknown Alakazam trainer.


Unless stated, this can not be said for all Pokemon.

That's them, not Alain's Charizard. Alain's Charizard is mainly brute force and has a lot of pain intolerance. It wouldn't even dodge a hydro pump if it had the chance of dodging it, instead, it would cut through it(or fly into it) and come right at you instead.

We don't even know if it took any damage in it other battles besides the one time he potion healed up his Charizard.


We don't even know if the other 8 or 7 were even tuff enough for Alain's Charizard to handle. That's your assumption. They were just random trainers that were probably picked off the street to challenge Alain's Charizard. Charizard clearly showed the difference between in power/strength against the first trainer and likely the rest. It seemed fine afterward, it didn't even look like it was tired.

Umm, no, the flamethrower wasn't even exactly point-blank and it surely didn't make any contact with M-Houndoom, especially when we saw it ducking and dodging it.

You're right that most Pokemon battle ends either in two or three hits, only if that Pokemon is significantly stronger and/or slightly above that said Pokemon.

It didn't look tired, it looked fine afterward. Even if we assume Charizard was taking little damage after the next battle, we still don't know how much/effective the oppossing side were dealing damage to Charizard; it still ended taking out his opponents down with little effort when his attacks made contact.



Not really. Obviously, current Ash-Greninja in its full form would be able to take out that version Alain's Charizard back then. But replace old version Charizard with Current version Charizard would steamroll much harder with an easy roll against those 9 trainers, and still would manage a win against current AG but it would put up a fight.


Malva may very well be an average E4 member, perhaps even the weakest out of the Kalos E4.

I don't believe all E4 members are equal in terms of power, It makes no sense for them to be, other than them being equal in terms of skills and strategies etc.

So exactly Gyarados never took on Malva's Houndoom. That doesn't necessarily put it above E4 unless you are going to say some ridiculous as Gyarados is stronger than even the champion(s) Ace Pokemon because it withstood MCX+AG+Ash's Kalos team(when M-Gyarados didn't even look like it broke a sweat against Ash's Kalos team), which its feat is weighed more than what any champion has ever done. Unless I'm missing something, that's what you would call abusing the power scale.[/spoil]

Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken 100℅ looked like a stalemate(the watery part and the fiery part was clearly same. MC-X survived because of its higher resistance, the power of the moves were clearly the same. So Mega Houndoom obviously won't survive the Giant orange shuriken if it didn't Blast Burn.

Mega Houndoom can't tank, evade or counter Blast Burn, so your point is irrelevant here. Mega Metagross tanked it, and Ash-Greninja clearly cancelled it out once. So Ash-Greninja is clearly ahead of Mega Houndoom here.

MC-X was obviously more exhausted when it battled Mega Houndoom than when it battled Ash-Greninja. Battling a Pikachu is never same as battling nine Mega Evolution trainers. And yet it got closer than Mega Houndoom making MC-X stumble in the end.

And what makes you think that Mega Houndoom can gain the upper hand against Mega Gardevoir and manage to seriously damage it overpowering it's move like Ash-Greninja did. Wikstrom's Mega Scizor was easily defeated by Mega Gardevoir, this shows that Diantha is much stronger than the E4 and she can defeat them without Mega Gardevoir taking damage unlike what happened against Ash-Greninja.

And Lysandre's Mega Gyarados overpowered Mega Charizard-X(who is clearly above E4 level and Ash-Greninja at once, so its obviously Champion level.

All these suggest that Ash-Greninja is stronger than Mega Houndoom.

 

[BladexFade]

Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken 100℅ looked like a stalemate(the watery part and the fiery part was clearly same. MC-X survived because of its higher resistance, the power of the moves were clearly the same. So Mega Houndoom obviously won't survive the Giant orange shuriken if it didn't Blast Burn.

Looked=/=fact. Both Ash-Greninja and M-Charizard X were evenly going at it with Charizard attacks being slightly or more stronger than Ash-Greninja. This is point, blank evidence when each hit with Dragon Claw made Greninja Sprawled. Other than Ash-Greninja denting Zard X's face to the ground it literally just pushed him back(and maybe down to one knee). For all we know Orange WS wasn't on par or strong enough like Zard X 2nd Blast Burn attempt.

Mega Houndoom can't tank, evade or counter Blast Burn, so your point is irrelevant here. Mega Metagross tanked it, and Ash-Greninja clearly cancelled it out once. So Ash-Greninja is clearly ahead of Mega Houndoom here.

It's only irrelavent to you when you ignore half of what I've wrote. Your point across was Ash-Greninja was stronger than M-Houndoom because it cancelled out BB(Lol), yet Steven's Metagross, once again, doesn't have a single move to cancel or stop BB in its track. Which is why your point invalid, and still is. Again, it doesn't matter if it tanked it or not. Metagross doesn't have a move to cancel out BB, but that doesn't AG above Metagross because it cancelled it out. I'm sure if Houndoom was order by Malva to jumped in the air like it did last to crunch Charizard it would have avoided being faint.

MC-X was obviously more exhausted when it battled Mega Houndoom than when it battled Ash-Greninja. Battling a Pikachu is never same as battling nine Mega Evolution trainers. And yet it got closer than Mega Houndoom making MC-X stumble in the end.

Obviously it would be exhausted facing an E4 member. But again, none of this prove AG is above E4 level. It didn't even defeat one E4 level/caliber.

And what makes you think that Mega Houndoom can gain the upper hand against Mega Gardevoir and manage to seriously damage its move like Ash-Greninja did. Wikstrom's Mega Scizor was easily defeated by Mega Gardevoir, this shows that Diantha is much stronger than the E4 and she can defeat them without Mega Gardevoir taking damage unlike what happened against Ash-Greninja.

The majority of those Pokemon can't even land a single hit on Gardevoir. If I want to play your game, Charizard has no feats whatsoever landing a single attack on Diantha's Gardevoir. Alain nor Charizard certainly wouldn't be able to read through Diantha's Gardevoir nonverbal communication. The only exception was Ash-Greninja.

I'm not sure if you're trying to say Diantha's Gardevoir in base form can defeat the Elite 4's in their mega forms is clear balderash. But yes, she can defeat them if it's base form vs base form. Greninja in it's normal state isn't even close to Gardevoir in terms of power in her base form.

And Lysandre's Mega Gyarados overpowered Mega Charizard-X(who is clearly above E4 level and Ash-Greninja at once, so its obviously Champion level.

Lol.

All these suggest that Ash-Greninja is stronger than Mega Houndoom.

That's like your opinion, man.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Looked=/=fact. Both Ash-Greninja and M-Charizard X were evenly going at it with Charizard attacks being slightly or more stronger than Ash-Greninja. This is point, blank evidence when each hit with Dragon Claw made Greninja Sprawled. Other than Ash-Greninja denting Zard X's face to the ground it literally just pushed him back(and maybe down to one knee). For all we know Orange WS wasn't on par or strong enough like Zard X 2nd Blast Burn attempt.


It's only irrelavent to you when you ignore half of what I've wrote. Your point across was Ash-Greninja was stronger than M-Houndoom because it cancelled out BB(Lol), yet Steven's Metagross, once again, doesn't have a single move to cancel or stop BB in its track. Which is why your point invalid, and still is. Again, it doesn't matter if it tanked it or not. Metagross doesn't have a move to cancel out BB, but that doesn't AG above Metagross because it cancelled it out. I'm sure if Houndoom was order by Malva to jumped in the air like it did last to crunch Charizard it would have avoided being faint.


Obviously it would be exhausted facing an E4 member. But again, none of this prove AG is above E4 level. It didn't even defeat one E4 level/caliber.

The majority of those Pokemon can't even land a single hit. If I want to play your game, Charizard has no feats whatsoever landing a single attack on Diantha's Gardevoir. Alain nor Charizard certainly wouldn't be able to read through Diantha's Gardevoir nonverbal communication. The only exception was Ash-Greninja.


Lol.

That's like your opinion, man.

Looked=/= fact isn't applicable here as it's clearly evident from the collision. MC-X surviving barely due to higher resistance is irrelevant here as the power of the moves were same. It was a stalemate between the two moves.

And your point is irrelevant when you're ignoring Ash-Greninja cancelling out MC-X's strongest move. Bringing Mega Metagross doesn't make sense because though Mega Metagross can't counter it like Ash-Greninja did, it can tank it. But Mega Houndoom can do none of these.

And MC-X never battled Mega Gardevoir, so it doesn't have a feat of damaging it. Ash-Greninja damaged Mega Gardevoir, so what makes you think that MC-X, who defeated Ash-Greninja, can't damage Mega Gardevoir? Diantha easily defeating Wikstrom shows that he can defeat E4 easily, so Ash-Greninja gaining the upper hand against it and damaging it clearly shows that it's above E4 level.

And Mega Gyarados, who was was overpowering Ash-Greninja, MC-X at once and one shotted all of Ash's team, isn't Champion level? LOL.

 

[snorlax512]

Again, Your argument is starting to shift around to other characters that have no business. Whether or not the Charizard was fresh out the Pokeball, AG still couldn't defeat 'em at the end. That doesn't even put him above any of the E4.

What do you mean? AG brought a fresh MCX to the verge of fainting, so if you apply simple logic it would bring an exhausted MCX down, something which Malva's mega houndoom couldn't do.

But by going with your logic, Lysandre is >Champion(s) because it pulled a better feat than Lance, Cynthia, Alder, Diantha and even Steven.

??? Lance, Cynthia, and Alder never battled MCX or AG, and Diantha wasn't fighting at full power. You don't really get it do you. I am comparing AG with Malva's mega-houndoom because they both fought the same opponent. There is nothing to compare Cynthia with Mega-Gyrados...

Occam Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the right answer. Both scenes were happening at the same time. With Steven chatting with Lysandre and Alain facing the unknown Alakazam trainer.

The purpose of a cut-scene is to skip towards the end of the battle, or else they would have just shown Alain K.Oing mega-Alakazam with dragon claw. Occam Razor points to my interpretation.

Unless stated, this can not be said for all Pokemon.

Does everything to be explicitly stated for you to believe it? Just use your common sense. MCX will be tired after facing 9 ME trainers. Jesus. Give me an example where a pokemon is shown to have battle marks when it is not tired.

That's them, not Alain's Charizard. Alain's Charizard is mainly brute force and has a lot of pain intolerance. It wouldn't even dodge a hydro pump if it had the chance of dodging it, instead, it would cut through it(or fly into it) and come right at you instead.

I agree. Most pokemon would be K.Oed by the second/third ME trainer. Alain's Charizard made it through, but that doesn't mean MCX is immune from taking damage, and it wouldn't get tired out after battling 9 of them.

We don't even know if it took any damage in it other battles besides the one time he potion healed up his Charizard.

Well, as you say, Occam Razor. It is much more likely that all the trainers were around the same level, instead of the first one causing MCX trouble then the next eight doing jack all, this would make zero sense.

We don't even know if the other 8 or 7 were even tuff enough for Alain's Charizard to handle. That's your assumption. They were just random trainers that were probably picked off the street to challenge Alain's Charizard. Charizard clearly showed the difference between in power/strength against the first trainer and likely the rest. It seemed fine afterward, it didn't even look like it was tired.

Occam Razor. Also this is fiction, so all the trainers were probably equal in strength instead of having completely random power levels.

Again, I never said Charizard wasn't a cut above all those trainers, he clearly was since he made it through all of them. He took a venoshock from the first one and got slammed into the ground by vine whip. If the rest of the trainers are similar in level (which is the logical choice), MCX would be pretty damn tired.

You're right that most Pokemon battle ends either in two or three hits, only if that Pokemon is significantly stronger and/or slightly above that said Pokemon.

OK, lets look at Kalos league finals:
Pikachu beat Tyrannitar in 2 hits
Weavile beat Noivern in 2 hits (3 if you count grazing his wing)
Hawlucha beat Weavile in 2 hits
Bisharp beat Hawlucha in 2 hits
Talonflame drew with Unfezant in 3 hits

I could go on and on but you get my drift. Most of these match ups were of similar calibre, and beating in two hits doesn't mean it wasn't tired out. MCX beating Mega-Venusaur with 2 hits doesn't mean it wasn't tired one bit.

It didn't look tired, it looked fine afterward. Even if we assume Charizard was taking little damage after the next battle, we still don't know how much/effective the oppossing side were dealing damage to Charizard; it still ended taking out his opponents down with little effort when his attacks made contact.

Explain why they would put battle marks then, an give an example where a pokemon has battle marks but isn't tired. It doesn't matter if Charizard is superior to those 9 ME trainers. Battling them all will make him tired.

Not really. Obviously, current Ash-Greninja in its full form would be able to take out that version Alain's Charizard back then. But replace old version Charizard with Current version Charizard would steamroll much harder with an easy roll against those 9 trainers, and still would manage a win against current AG but it would put up a fight.

LOL, thanks for proving my point xD. Malva faced a weaker and tired MCX.
AG would have beat that version of MCX, and Malva didn't.
Therefore, AG>Mega Houndoom

Malva may very well be an average E4 member, perhaps even the weakest out of the Kalos E4.

I don't know why you are always assuming the worst to undermine AG's power. Firstly all the ME trainers MCX faced were rubbish, then Malva is the worst E4 trainer.

Just snap out of your grudge against AG and assume the most logical choice: The other 8 ME trainers were decent just like the first one, and Malva is just an average E4 member.

I don't believe all E4 members are equal in terms of power, It makes no sense for them to be, other than them being equal in terms of skills and strategies etc.

Why would it make no sense for the E4 to be similar in power? lol

So exactly Gyarados never took on Malva's Houndoom. That doesn't necessarily put it above E4 unless you are going to say some ridiculous as Gyarados is stronger than even the champion(s) Ace Pokemon because it withstood MCX+AG+Ash's Kalos team(when M-Gyarados didn't even look like it broke a sweat against Ash's Kalos team), which its feat is weighed more than what any champion has ever done. Unless I'm missing something, that's what you would call abusing the power scale.

It is stronger than the E4, because it stood up to MCX + AG. MCX > E4, and even by your standards that AG=E4 makes Mega-Gyrados > E4. I would say it is not far from champion level.

Abusing the power scale? Is it physically impossible for any trainer to be close to Champion level?

Guys, this discussion is going nowhere, because of one particular reason: There is no absolute truth regarding power levels out there, neither in an anime with fluctuating power levels, nor in real life sports.

We can all pretty much agree on that ZardX, AG and the E4 aces are more or less on the same level. So, in a battle between them, just minor details could change the outcome, like the structure of the battlefield, weather conditions, critical hits etc.

Just because M-Houndoom lost against ZardX doesn't mean that it's automatically weaker than it, it's still on the same level, just unfit to battle that specific Pokemon. Just look at the OU-tier: Ferrothorn gets stomped by Heatran, because it's not designed to combat it. However, this doesn't make it an UU Mon. As a matter of fact, Ferrothorn can easily take on Azumarill, a Pokemon against which Heatran would have a hard time.

AG lost to ZardX because the latter one has more bulk and hits harder, but I'm pretty sure it would win or at least draw against M-Guardevoir, because it's a glass cannon.

It's not that Malva lost to MCX, its that Malva lost to an MCX who had battled 9 ME trainers beforehand which makes them on a different level. Also, type advantages don't matter as much in the anime.

 

[GLTSRY]

Also, type advantages don't matter as much in the anime.

Ok, now this is kinda OT, but I still had to reply to it:

Type advantages DO matter in the anime. I don't understand why so many people think otherwise, after all, why shouldn't they? Weavile, which had 4x weakness against Fighting, was one shotted by Hawlucha, and Shota even stated that Ash had the advantage. The same happened in the Unova League, where Cameron's Ferrothorn and Swanna got one-shotted. And there are many more examples to that.

The thing is, Ash often has to overcome type disadvantages, and because he mostly does so, many people think they don't matter as much, but it's an artistic choice to let him be the underdog and to create false tension.

Finally, if I couldn't convince you until now, take this into consideration: If they really don't matter, then why did Ash use Hawlucha instead of Talonflame against Heliolisk in the battle vs Clemont. After all, both are weak to Electric, aren't they? Well, Fighting>Normal. The same can be said about his choice of not using Noivern at all against Wulfric.

B2T:

And like I stated in my earlier post, you can't really say X>Y, if X and Y are around the same level/tier. Imagine this scenario: Siebold and Ash meet, Ash has still Greninja, and they win against him and his Blastoise. Now, Blastoise had defeated Charizard earlier, who, as we all know, managed to beat Greninja several times. It's impossible to say who the strongest is, hence we put them in the same tier.

Now, as Malva is an E4 member, thus on the same level as Siebold, her Houndoom is in the same tier as well, despite having lost to a weakened Charizard

 

[snorlax512]

Ok, now this is kinda OT, but I still had to reply to it:

Type advantages DO matter in the anime. I don't understand why so many people think otherwise, after all, why shouldn't they? Weavile, which had 4x weakness against Fighting, was one shotted by Hawlucha, and Shota even stated that Ash had the advantage. The same happened in the Unova League, where Cameron's Ferrothorn and Swanna got one-shotted. And there are many more examples to that.

The thing is, Ash often has to overcome type disadvantages, and because he mostly does so, many people think they don't matter as much, but it's an artistic choice to let him be the underdog and to create false tension.

Finally, if I couldn't convince you until now, take this into consideration: If they really don't matter, then why did Ash use Hawlucha instead of Talonflame against Heliolisk in the battle vs Clemont. After all, both are weak to Electric, aren't they? Well, Fighting>Normal. The same can be said about his choice of not using Noivern at all against Wulfric.

B2T:

And like I stated in my earlier post, you can't really say X>Y, if X and Y are around the same level/tier. Imagine this scenario: Siebold and Ash meet, Ash has still Greninja, and they win against him and his Blastoise. Now, Blastoise had defeated Charizard earlier, who, as we all know, managed to beat Greninja several times. It's impossible to say who the strongest is, hence we put them in the same tier.

Now, as Malva is an E4 member, thus on the same level as Siebold, her Houndoom is in the same tier as well, despite having lost to a weakened Charizard

I'm saying they matter, just not as much as in the games.
Siebold beat MCX in ME1, and he has progressed hugely since then. MCX would definitely beat Siebold as of right now. How can you put yourself in the same tier if you can't beat an opponent who has battled 9 times before???

 

[GLTSRY]

I'm saying they matter, just not as much as in the games.
Siebold beat MCX in ME1, and he has progressed hugely since then. MCX would definitely beat Siebold as of right now. How can you put yourself in the same tier if you can't beat an opponent who has battled 9 times before???

I knew that this argument would come.
You have to take into consideration, that Siebold most likely progressed, too. And even if we, for the sake of the argument, assume that Alain progressed more, they most likely still haven't surpassed them, and even if (which is a very big if), probably not enough to withstand several Mega Launcher Dragon Pulses.

Yes, on that one ocassion, Houndoom suffered a (pretty humiliating) defeat. But like I said, we have so few instances of E4 members battling, and so little information about their team, that we have to assume that they're all equal (At least for the post Sinnoh E4, that is).

If Malva hadn't mega evolved Houndoom (which she was forced to), the battle may have gone to the other direction. And this may part is very important, because, as I've already mentioned, battles at such a high level can be decided by minor details, like deciding to (not) mega evolve or to use Seismic Toss on a Ghost Pokemon.

 

[BladexFade]

Looked=/= fact isn't applicable here as it's clearly evident from the collision. MC-X surviving barely due to higher resistance is irrelevant here as the power of the moves were same. It was a stalemate between the two moves.

Only if you ignore that MCX attacks were vastly starting to overwhelm Ash-Greninja(and even had him somewhat running from him). MC-X won due to having higher endurance and stronger attack than Ash-Greninja. As it was clearly depicted in the scene when Charizard-X's attacks had AG sprawled.

And your point is irrelevant

No, "no u"

when you're ignoring Ash-Greninja cancelling out MC-X's strongest move.

It doesn't matter because it the end it fainted in the end towards the move. The same move that knocked out M-Houndoom.

Bringing Mega Metagross doesn't make sense because through Mega Metagross can't counter it like Ash-Greninja did, it can tank it. But Mega Houndoom can do none of these.

Now you're just backpaddling. It makes sense when you tried to play your card game "one E4 is weaker because it didn't cancel out BB."

And MC-X never battled Mega Gardevoir, so it doesn't have a feat of damaging it. Ash-Greninja damaged Mega Gardevoir, so what makes you think that MC-X, who defeated Ash-Greninja, can't damage Mega Gardevoir? Diantha easily defeating Wikstrom shows that he can defeat E4 easily, so Ash-Greninja gaining the upper hand against it and damaging it clearly shows that it's above E4 level.

Because A doesn't always dictate B being able to damage/win C.
And it took more than just brute force and one way thinking to land even a hit on Diantha's Gardevoir anyway. It got the upper hand for that very moment. In fact, when Gardevoir mega evolved it was said, not in exact words, M-Gardevoir just even the battle after M-Gardevoir caught AG's Cut. It was no different when Ash-Greninja gained the upper hand against Alain during their 2nd battle.

And Mega Gyarados, who was overpowering Ash-Greninja, MC-X at once and one shotted all of Ash's team, isn't Champion level? LOL.

It wasn't even overpowering Ash and the co., other than Ash Kalos team. It was more of an E4 vs E4 calibers. Neither of Ash kalos team fainted with swirly eyes.

With that mindset, It wouldn't even put him champion level, it would put him above champion level. Just like how you are using Charizard defeating Houndoom equates to AG must be above Houndoom and all of the E4's. You see how silly your claim is?

 

[BladexFade]

What do you mean? AG brought a fresh MCX to the verge of fainting, so if you apply simple logic it would bring an exhausted MCX down, something which Malva's mega houndoom couldn't do.

Except, Charizard can't really be considered "fresh" when it took damage from Pikachu. Mega Houndoom did bring down Charizard to fainting/red bar level. This is point evidence shown when Charizard was about to crash in the next turn or two until it used it BB.

??? Lance, Cynthia, and Alder never battled MCX or AG, and Diantha wasn't fighting at full power. You don't really get it do you. I am comparing AG with Malva's mega-houndoom because they both fought the same opponent.
I don't know why you are always assuming the worst to undermine AG's power. Firstly all the ME trainers MCX faced were rubbish, then Malva is the worst E4 trainer.

Yes but Malva only lost to him once, the outcome may or may not change if they fought again, but both had Charizard in the red and both have fainted to Charizard strongest move. I'll explain this a bit more towards the bottom of my post.

Because I disagree with your certain beliefs makes me undermining AG's power? Get real. I never said the trainers were rubbish or Malva's the worst E4 trainer. Evidently, you did, though, multiple times.
If I wanted to play the advocate then, AG deflected multiple hits, broke through Diantha's defenses, outsped + read through Diantha and Gardevoir's nonverbal communication, landed hits, Diantha was shown with the visual sweat drop on the side of her head, dialogue from Serena stated she would have been defeated if she didn't Mega Evolve, and she couldn't manage to block an attack of AG's Water Shuriken without taking damage/getting knocked back. (People try to painfully argue Diantha was holding back or not serious, but that was objectively only true for a quarter of the beginning of the fight.) She clearly tried to things (dodge, attack, defend) but it all failed.
If that is the case, from that alone, puts AG >champion level.

The purpose of a cut-scene is to skip towards the end of the battle, or else they would have just shown Alain K.Oing mega-Alakazam with dragon claw. Occam Razor points to my interpretation.

Though this may be true for the rest of the other battles, I still disagree with you on terms for Mega Alakazam as it would make sense for it shows it going down in the initial turn Charizard got within the range M-Alakazam using Dragon claw.

Explain why they would put battle marks then, an give an example where a pokemon has battle marks but isn't tired. It doesn't matter if Charizard is superior to those 9 ME trainers.

My answer the anime studio didn't forget this time to put Charizard received actual damage. Or it showed after taking multiple hits Charizard scuff marks were shown visible.

Battling them all will make him tired.

That's your conjecture. He seemed pretty fine my standpoint, and there wasn't any dialogue from Alain Charizard was getting "tired" from battling.

Does everything to be explicitly stated for you to believe it? Just use your common sense. MCX will be tired after facing 9 ME trainers. Jesus.

Unless stated or implied then yes. I 'd take WoG over people's assumptions. But again, to me, Charizard didn't look like it was tired. It wasn't huffing and breathing hard after its battles. In fact, it looked fine afterward. It started to get "tired" towards the end against Mega Houndoom before it used BB.

Give me an example where a pokemon is shown to have battle marks when it is not tired.

You may have this point as I can not think of some of the examples right now.

Alain's Charizard made it through, but that doesn't mean MCX is immune from taking damage, and it wouldn't get tired out after battling 9 of them.

Though it was never mention Charizard was reaching his limit either. But what does this has to do with Ash-Greninja again?

OK, lets look at Kalos league finals:
Pikachu beat Tyrannitar in 2 hits
Weavile beat Noivern in 2 hits (3 if you count grazing his wing)
Hawlucha beat Weavile in 2 hits
Bisharp beat Hawlucha in 2 hits
Talonflame drew with Unfezant in 3 hits

This doesn't change the fact they were significantly stronger and/or slightly above said Pokemon. It doesn't take away from what I've said.

Again, I never said Charizard wasn't a cut above all those trainers, he clearly was since he made it through all of them. He took a venoshock from the first one and got slammed into the ground by vine whip. If the rest of the trainers are similar in level (which is the logical choice), MCX would be pretty damn tired.

Disagreeing with them having the same power, they may have been similar to each in terms of skill level, but power can differ from each and one of them. But again, wouldn't make sense for them all to be similar levels then abruptly throws out an E4 who is a different ball game.

Malva faced a weaker and tired MCX.
AG would have beat that version of MCX, and Malva didn't.
Therefore, AG>Mega Houndoom

Not really, because we don't how much stronger Malva has gotten after their battle. I assumed the E4 are also keeping up training and trying to improve. But safety assumed Malva's ace is probably still below Charizard level in terms of power(and even endurance). Also, that same Charizard that won against Malva is the same Charizard before it got stronger won against Ash-Greninja.

the most logical choice: The other 8 ME trainers were decent just like the first one, and Malva is just an average E4 member.

>Ignoring that I've literally said it in one of my previous posts

Why would it make no sense for the E4 to be similar in power? lol

Because It wasn't explicitly stated E4's are around the same power. They are roughly margin apart in strength but that's just it(E.g. Flint Vs Cynthia, Aaron vs Cynthia, and Lucian vs Cynthia. Even as short as those fights were there were noticeable feats distinguishing how strong their Pokemon are in those scenes). That's like say all Champions are the same/similar in power. Maybe in general term, but specifically, no.

It is stronger than the E4, because it stood up to MCX + AG. MCX > E4, and even by your standards that AG=E4 makes Mega-Gyrados > E4. I would say it is not far from champion level.

Disagree that MCX is>E4 when we haven't seen the rest of the Kalos E4(and the other regional E4) to determine how strong they are. I see them as it was a battle between E4 calibers/levels vs each other.
For me, it's Champions>E4(includes AG, MCX, Lysandre's Gyarados who are in the same tier)

So standing up against 1 or 2 E4 caliber Pokemon means it is above E4 level, then?
If I were to say all champions are the same, using your logic and the 345ash-greninja guys logic(who admittedly said Lysandre is champion level). Then MCX(who defeated one E4 is somehow stronger than all E4 and won against Greninja who had the one champ on the ropes)+AG+Pikachu puts Lysandre Ace Pokemon as the strongest trainer which makes no sense.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I knew that this argument would come.
You have to take into consideration, that Siebold most likely progressed, too. And even if we, for the sake of the argument, assume that Alain progressed more, they most likely still haven't surpassed them, and even if (which is a very big if), probably not enough to withstand several Mega Launcher Dragon Pulses.

Yes, on that one ocassion, Houndoom suffered a (pretty humiliating) defeat. But like I said, we have so few instances of E4 members battling, and so little information about their team, that we have to assume that they're all equal (At least for the post Sinnoh E4, that is).

If Malva hadn't mega evolved Houndoom (which she was forced to), the battle may have gone to the other direction. And this may part is very important, because, as I've already mentioned, battles at such a high level can be decided by minor details, like deciding to (not) mega evolve or to use Seismic Toss on a Ghost Pokemon.

MC-X didn't use Blast Burn, its strongest move against Siebold. If MC-X used that move, Siebold would've been probably defeated like Malva.

 

[snorlax512]

I knew that this argument would come.
You have to take into consideration, that Siebold most likely progressed, too. And even if we, for the sake of the argument, assume that Alain progressed more, they most likely still haven't surpassed them, and even if (which is a very big if), probably not enough to withstand several Mega Launcher Dragon Pulses.

Yes, on that one ocassion, Houndoom suffered a (pretty humiliating) defeat. But like I said, we have so few instances of E4 members battling, and so little information about their team, that we have to assume that they're all equal (At least for the post Sinnoh E4, that is).

If Malva hadn't mega evolved Houndoom (which she was forced to), the battle may have gone to the other direction. And this may part is very important, because, as I've already mentioned, battles at such a high level can be decided by minor details, like deciding to (not) mega evolve or to use Seismic Toss on a Ghost Pokemon.

This is an anime TV show, not real life. Characters who are irrelevant to the main plot do not progress, or else all the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn E4 members would be stomping the Kalos E4 by now, and gym leaders such as Ramos who have been in the field for decades should be one-shotting every challenger. The E4 and Champion tend to remain the same in skill/power.

Firstly, I doubt it because the power increase in mega-evolution is too high to counteract the lack of fire moves - MCX's Dragon claw is pretty powerful. Also, even if Malva did beat Zard X, I wouldn't say that means Houndoom > Charizard. It just means Houndoom has an ability which completely counters Charizard.

High level battles when the strength of the pokemon are similar. I don't think Mega-houndoom is similar in strength to MCX.