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Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

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GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
MC-X didn't use Blast Burn, its strongest move against Siebold. If MC-X used that move, Siebold would've been probably defeated like Malva.
Well, Alain probably didn't order Blast Burn because he knew that it'd amount to jack. Moreover, if Blast Burn just theoretically had the power to decide the outcome of the battle, then not using it was a mistake which made him lose the battle, supporting my argument that battles at that level are decided by even minor tactical mistakes.
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
This is an anime TV show, not real life. Characters who are irrelevant to the main plot do not progress, or else all the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn E4 members would be stomping the Kalos E4 by now, and gym leaders such as Ramos who have been in the field for decades should be one-shotting every challenger. The E4 and Champion tend to remain the same in skill/power.

Firstly, I doubt it because the power increase in mega-evolution is too high to counteract the lack of fire moves - MCX's Dragon claw is pretty powerful. Also, even if Malva did beat Zard X, I wouldn't say that means Houndoom > Charizard. It just means Houndoom has an ability which completely counters Charizard.

High level battles when the strength of the pokemon are similar. I don't think Mega-houndoom is similar in strength to MCX.
First of all, characters like Siebold don't stop progressing, they just fade into the beautiful world called off-screen land. Furhermore, we don't have any sort of idea how much time in the Pokemon universe has passed, but it's not the 19 years which passed in the real world, hence, it is very likely that the Kalos E4 and the Hoenn E4 have the same amount of experience. Finally, Gym Leaders are shown to adjust their levels in order to not be too op (Like Wulfric), and experience doesn't always go hand in hand with actual strength.

Now, in your second argument, you just repeat what I've said: At this level, you can't say X>Y, but you can say that X has these advantages to overcome Y, whereas Y can overcome Z who defeated X.

For me, Charizard's bulkiness and overall power gave it the edge against Houndoom, but as the Ace of an E4, it is still in the same tier as ZardX
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
First of all, characters like Siebold don't stop progressing, they just fade into the beautiful world called off-screen land. Furhermore, we don't have any sort of idea how much time in the Pokemon universe has passed, but it's not the 19 years which passed in the real world, hence, it is very likely that the Kalos E4 and the Hoenn E4 have the same amount of experience. Finally, Gym Leaders are shown to adjust their levels in order to not be too op (Like Wulfric), and experience doesn't always go hand in hand with actual strength.

Now, in your second argument, you just repeat what I've said: At this level, you can't say X>Y, but you can say that X has these advantages to overcome Y, whereas Y can overcome Z who defeated X.

For me, Charizard's bulkiness and overall power gave it the edge against Houndoom, but as the Ace of an E4, it is still in the same tier as ZardX
Well, one year of Pokemon time (one saga) has seen Froakie --> Ash-Greninja, so In 4/5 years of Pokemon time the Kanto E4 should be one-shotting Kalos E4s. The characters irrelevant to the main plot do not progress.

I'm not saying they are on the same level. MCX is clearly superior. You could also argue that Infernape isn't better than Torterra, he just "had these advantages to sweep half Pual's team, whereas Torterra just "had disadvantages" which caused him to be 2 shot.

Ace of E4 does not mean it is in the same tier as Zard X
 
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Only if you ignore that MCX attacks were vastly starting to overwhelm Ash-Greninja(and even had him somewhat running from him). MC-X won due to having higher endurance and stronger attack than Ash-Greninja. As it was clearly depicted in the scene when Charizard-X's attacks had AG sprawled.


No, "no u"

It doesn't matter because it the end it fainted in the end towards the move. The same move that knocked out M-Houndoom.

Now you're just backpaddling. It makes sense when you tried to play your card game "one E4 is weaker because it didn't cancel out BB."


Because A doesn't always dictate B being able to damage/win C.
And it took more than just brute force and one way thinking to land even a hit on Diantha's Gardevoir anyway. It got the upper hand for that very moment. In fact, when Gardevoir mega evolved it was said, not in exact words, M-Gardevoir just even the battle after M-Gardevoir caught AG's Cut. It was no different when Ash-Greninja gained the upper hand against Alain during their 2nd battle.


It wasn't even overpowering Ash and the co., other than Ash Kalos team. It was more of an E4 vs E4 calibers. Neither of Ash kalos team fainted with swirly eyes.

With that mindset, It wouldn't even put him champion level, it would put him above champion level. Just like how you are using Charizard defeating Houndoom equates to AG must be above Houndoom and all of the E4's. You see how silly your claim is?
LOL!

Nothing to say really. When did MC-X's attacks vastly overwhelm Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja took two Dragon Claws, and MC-X also took a Water Shuriken in its belly when Ash-Greninja deflected Thunder Punch and a quite hard hit from Aerial Ace. The final collision was very much even, MC-X survived barely due to higher resistance, not stronger attack anyway.

And your ignoring of the point Ash-Greninja cancelling out MC-X's strongest move Blast Burn by bringing in Mega Metagross who had the resistance to survive Blast Burn unlike Mega Houndoom is plain ridiculous. It's obviously quite a feat to cancel out MC-X's strongest move. You're deliberately ignoring it.

And Ash-Greninja did gain the upper hand against Mega Gardevoir and damaged it seriously. MC-X vs Ash-Greninja's second battle was never like how Mega Gardevoir was sent sprawling through the ground. Diantha held back for only a quarter of the battle(as you also agreed) and fought seriously afterwards. Still Ash-Greninja gained the upper hand. You are seriously thinking that MC-X with its powerful moves like Blast Burn won't push Mega Gardevoir close to defeat?

And Lysandre's Mega Gyarados overpowered MC-X and Ash-Greninja one on one. When MC-X and Ash-Greninja attacked in unision, then Mega Gyarados was overpowered. So it's obviously somewhere near champion level.

But well, I guess we better accept this as Anime power inconsistency as this argument is going nowhere.
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
Well, one year of Pokemon time (one saga) has seen Froakie --> Ash-Greninja, so In 4/5 years of Pokemon time the Kanto E4 should be one-shotting Kalos E4s. This characters irrelevant to the main plot do not progress.

I'm not saying they are on the same level. MCX is clearly superior. You could also argue that Infernape isn't better than Torterra, he just "had these advantages to sweep half Pual's team, whereas Torterra just "had disadvantages" which caused him to be 2 shot.

Ace of E4 does not mean it is in the same tier as Zard X
I think you didn't get my point. It could very well be that the Kalos E4 and the Kanto E4 have started operating around the same time. Kalos didn't start existing (in-universe) after Ash met Alexa.

That is a bad example, and you know it. Charizard and Houndoom are the respective aces of 2 trainers on E4 level, thus comparable. The case with your other example is that we have on one side the undeniable ace of a regional team, and on the other side a (albeit underrated and strangely developed) fallguy.

Anyways, as this "ZardX vs M-Houndoom" is OT, here my tier list of trainers (Tobias not included as he was just a plot device):

Tier 1: All regional champs
Tier 1.5: All E4s, Brandon, Alain, Ash, Volkner, Wulfric
Tier 2: 6 other Frontier Brains, stronger Gym Leaders like Norman or Olympia, Paul, Sawyer, Tyson
Tier 2.5: Harrison, all other Gym Leaders, Virgil
Tier 3: Barry, Tierno, Morrison, Katie, Stephan, Cameron (sigh...)
Tier 3.5: Bianca, Trevor
Tier 4: Richie
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
I think you didn't get my point. It could very well be that the Kalos E4 and the Kanto E4 have started operating around the same time. Kalos didn't start existing (in-universe) after Ash met Alexa.
Bond-phenomemon happened in the ninja village like 600 years ago so I don't think so.

That is a bad example, and you know it. Charizard and Houndoom are the respective aces of 2 trainers on E4 level, thus comparable. The case with your other example is that we have on one side the undeniable ace of a regional team, and on the other side a (albeit underrated and strangely developed) fallguy.
You can't argue that MCX = Mega-Houndoom by already establishing that they are both E4 level. MCX beat 9 ME trainers then mega-houndoom, so clearly it is > E4 level
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
Bond-phenomemon happened in the ninja village like 600 years ago so I don't think so.
Ok, I'm sorry, but I really have no clue whatsoever what this has to do with my argument - mind to elaborate? I mean, you basically accept that Kalos existed even when Ash was in Kanto, meaning the E4 in both regions are on the same level


You can't argue that MCX = Mega-Houndoom by already establishing that they are both E4 level. MCX beat 9 ME trainers then mega-houndoom, so clearly it is > E4 level
Yeah, but we have no clue how strong the majority of these 9 trainers were. However, we do know that Alain has 1 win and 1 loss under his belt against E4 trainers, you can't be more on an E4 Level than that, as he is neither stronger nor weaker.
 

BladexFade

Well-Known Member
LOL!

Nothing to say really. When did MC-X's attacks vastly overwhelm Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja took two Dragon Claws, and MC-X also took a Water Shuriken in its belly when Ash-Greninja deflected Thunder Punch and a quite hard hit from Aerial Ace. The final collision was very much even, MC-X survived barely due to higher resistance, not stronger attack anyway.
He clearly overwhelmed him twice when he pushed Ash-Greninja 2x using Dragon claw. But My point, that you missed, is Charizard undeniably starting to get the upper-hand in the fight(not a lot but slightly gaining the advantage), even to the point where it felt like Ash-Greninja was getting pushed back, even at one point where they clash with dragon claw vs Water kunai Charizard was pressing Ash-Greninja, leaving had him on defense. The episode is straight forward with this.

And your ignoring of the point Ash-Greninja cancelling out MC-X's strongest move Blast Burn by bringing in Mega Metagross who had the resistance to survive Blast Burn unlike Mega Houndoom is plain ridiculous. It's obviously quite a feat to cancel out MC-X's strongest move. You're deliberately ignoring it.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just pointing out a flaw from what you said about "M-Houndoom is weaker because it didn't cancel out BB like AG did", that's flawed reasoning. Again, that is why your point is invalid. But it doesn't matter because AG still went down to BB when it made contact, just like Houndoom did.

And Ash-Greninja did gain the upper hand against Mega Gardevoir and damaged it seriously.
AG gained the upper hand against Diantha's M-Gardevoir towards the end, and the only "serious" damage was the Giant Water Shuriken towards.

MC-X vs Ash-Greninja's second battle was never like how Mega Gardevoir was sent sprawling through the ground. Diantha held back for only a quarter of the battle(as you also agreed) and fought seriously afterwards.
My point towards the end when Ash-Greninja was more or less slightly gaining the advantage. When Ash-Greninja hit Charizard with a direct cut it had chilled on the ground.

Still Ash-Greninja gained the upper hand. You are seriously thinking that MC-X with its powerful moves like Blast Burn won't push Mega Gardevoir close to defeat?
It probably could. In fact, I would have agreed with M-Charizard does have a chance to beat M-Gardevoir if it wasn't for the anime writers small misleading us fans that M-Gardevoir needs to charge up her MB before launching the attack which was debunk by the writers' themselves in TF arc. BB probably wouldn't even reach M-Gardevoir, assuming it'd use it's own psychic powers to float in the air.
And Lysandre's Mega Gyarados overpowered MC-X and Ash-Greninja one on one. When MC-X and Ash-Greninja attacked in unision, then Mega Gyarados was overpowered. So it's obviously somewhere near champion level.
Both sides were nearly exchanging hits. Yeah sure, M-Gyarados did surprisingly well against Alain & Ash, but It is hard to say Gyarados would win against them in an actually 1vs1. It could be a very close battle having Ash or Alain coming out as the victor against Lysandre. But it all comes down to the trainers call and Pokemon at the end that decides.
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Ok, I'm sorry, but I really have no clue whatsoever what this has to do with my argument - mind to elaborate? I mean, you basically accept that Kalos existed even when Ash was in Kanto, meaning the E4 in both regions are on the same level

Yeah, but we have no clue how strong the majority of these 9 trainers were. However, we do know that Alain has 1 win and 1 loss under his belt against E4 trainers, you can't be more on an E4 Level than that, as he is neither stronger nor weaker.
I'm a bit confused. You said Kalos didn't start existing until Ash met Alexa, so I pointed out Kalos has a history.

Nevermind that though. Are you saying that the E4 members Ash faced in Hoenn/Sinnoh (at the time) were significantly weaker than the one's we saw in Kalos? I don't really understand your argument.

Besides, it seems unrealistic that there is a huge gap between E4 trainers. Siebold > Alain >>> Malva???
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Except, Charizard can't really be considered "fresh" when it took damage from Pikachu. Mega Houndoom did bring down Charizard to fainting/red bar level. This is point evidence shown when Charizard was about to crash in the next turn or two until it used it BB.


Yes but Malva only lost to him once, the outcome may or may not change if they fought again, but both had Charizard in the red and both have fainted to Charizard strongest move. I'll explain this a bit more towards the bottom of my post.

Because I disagree with your certain beliefs makes me undermining AG's power? Get real. I never said the trainers were rubbish or Malva's the worst E4 trainer. Evidently, you did, though, multiple times.
If I wanted to play the advocate then, AG deflected multiple hits, broke through Diantha's defenses, outsped + read through Diantha and Gardevoir's nonverbal communication, landed hits, Diantha was shown with the visual sweat drop on the side of her head, dialogue from Serena stated she would have been defeated if she didn't Mega Evolve, and she couldn't manage to block an attack of AG's Water Shuriken without taking damage/getting knocked back. (People try to painfully argue Diantha was holding back or not serious, but that was objectively only true for a quarter of the beginning of the fight.) She clearly tried to things (dodge, attack, defend) but it all failed.
If that is the case, from that alone, puts AG >champion level.


Though this may be true for the rest of the other battles, I still disagree with you on terms for Mega Alakazam as it would make sense for it shows it going down in the initial turn Charizard got within the range M-Alakazam using Dragon claw.


My answer the anime studio didn't forget this time to put Charizard received actual damage. Or it showed after taking multiple hits Charizard scuff marks were shown visible.


That's your conjecture. He seemed pretty fine my standpoint, and there wasn't any dialogue from Alain Charizard was getting "tired" from battling.


Unless stated or implied then yes. I 'd take WoG over people's assumptions. But again, to me, Charizard didn't look like it was tired. It wasn't huffing and breathing hard after its battles. In fact, it looked fine afterward. It started to get "tired" towards the end against Mega Houndoom before it used BB.


You may have this point as I can not think of some of the examples right now.


Though it was never mention Charizard was reaching his limit either. But what does this has to do with Ash-Greninja again?



This doesn't change the fact they were significantly stronger and/or slightly above said Pokemon. It doesn't take away from what I've said.



Disagreeing with them having the same power, they may have been similar to each in terms of skill level, but power can differ from each and one of them. But again, wouldn't make sense for them all to be similar levels then abruptly throws out an E4 who is a different ball game.


Not really, because we don't how much stronger Malva has gotten after their battle. I assumed the E4 are also keeping up training and trying to improve. But safety assumed Malva's ace is probably still below Charizard level in terms of power(and even endurance). Also, that same Charizard that won against Malva is the same Charizard before it got stronger won against Ash-Greninja.


>Ignoring that I've literally said it in one of my previous posts

Because It wasn't explicitly stated E4's are around the same power. They are roughly margin apart in strength but that's just it(E.g. Flint Vs Cynthia, Aaron vs Cynthia, and Lucian vs Cynthia. Even as short as those fights were there were noticeable feats distinguishing how strong their Pokemon are in those scenes). That's like say all Champions are the same/similar in power. Maybe in general term, but specifically, no.


Disagree that MCX is>E4 when we haven't seen the rest of the Kalos E4(and the other regional E4) to determine how strong they are. I see them as it was a battle between E4 calibers/levels vs each other.
For me, it's Champions>E4(includes AG, MCX, Lysandre's Gyarados who are in the same tier)

So standing up against 1 or 2 E4 caliber Pokemon means it is above E4 level, then?
If I were to say all champions are the same, using your logic and the 345ash-greninja guys logic(who admittedly said Lysandre is champion level). Then MCX(who defeated one E4 is somehow stronger than all E4 and won against Greninja who had the one champ on the ropes)+AG+Pikachu puts Lysandre Ace Pokemon as the strongest trainer which makes no sense.
I don't see what you are arguing anymore. We are both agree that AG would beat the Malva who faced MCX.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
All we can say with certainty is that AG > Base Ace Champion Pokémon. It's probably in the same realm as an E4 Mega, but I'd be cautious about saying it can outright beat 1. For the record, Full Power Mega Gardevoir > Mastered Ash-Greninja > Imperfect Ash-Greninja ~ Suppressed Mega Gardevoir > Base Gardevoir. The MC X beating 10 Megas is definitely an incredible stamina feat, but can't be considered a health feat due to Pecha Barry + use of some Potion after beating the 6th Mega.
 

Ash-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
How is it a fallacy? All the evidence we have is that Metang won against Noivern, Metagross was used against Remo, and he was doing solid against Pikachu until his weakness got exposed. Rest is up to interpretation, and for me I interpreted that from the sample we have Metagross is not that scary. If I was a scout and looked at this resume, sure I might take a jab at Metagross and say he is much better than what he showed, but chances are I would just dismiss it and look for more consistent options. Of course you can choose to disagree, hence IMO.
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html

This source explains the fallacy relatively well.

You cannot claim that Metagross is weak simply because it hasn't been proven to be strong because it leads to two different possibilities:

a) Metagross is weak.
b) Metagross is actually pretty damn powerful, but hasn't gotten proper screen-time.

What you do instead is present substantial evidence within the anime that does denote Metagross as being relatively weak. I don't understand how the examples you presented would ever lead you to arrive to that conclusion. Is defeating a pokemon supposed to make you seem weak? Is being used along with Alain's strongest pokemon specifically indicate that he's weak? How does trashing a Base E4 Tier pokemon initially define him as weak? I'm not even sure if you can label Metagross as "inconsistent" when it has one feat that doesn't contradict how Metagross was depicted in the series.

It's open to interpretation, but you simply haven't presented any evidence other than the fact that it "lacks feats". In all honesty, this contradicts the fundamentals of pokemon. An example that illustrates this is Ash's Greninja. Even when Alain only observed Ash-Greninja's power once, he was fascinated by his power and deemed him as a worthy opponent. This wouldn't be possible if the writers operated on a similar way of thinking. One example is enough to emphasize a pokemon's power and simply having one impressive performance in the anime shouldn't rank it as weak.

Like I said, most of the Pokemon you mentioned all have other feats to make up for their shortcoming. Donphan and Shifty I don't consider to be that strong to begin with, so we can dismiss those two. Not saying that whatever we see defines that certain Pokemon, but it's better to just base off what we see and can assume for certainty. It's somewhat not fair, considering most of these Pokemon don't get much screen time, which is why I explained a while back that these "tier lists" are very radical and inflation is bound to happen.
The only issue with that is we only have one example to go off of and in spite of that, the writers evidently gave Metagross a phenomenal performance by pummeling Pikachu who could simply run up to Alain's Charizard and land two preemptive attacks with little reaction. Simply going off of what we see, Metagross is powerful, and you're taking a rather convoluted approach in ranking Metagross simply because it hasn't demonstrated more feats.

Charizard could have very well just ate through Remo's team with Metagross taking out one Pokemon. We don't know if Alain specifically saved Metagross for Pikachu, and obviously he would look shocked because he though he had the match in the bag after showing some dominance, but the table turned quickly. You could chalk it up to Ash's awareness skill to let Pikachu gain the upper hand, which brings up another problem of mixing tiers of different trainers. The performance of a Pokemon is heavily dependent on the trainer's decision making and style, so it gets weird when we mix trainers.
Sure, but that doesn't really address that Metagross was a specific choice much like Charizard was who also was the strongest. Given that, it makes the most sense that Metagross was selected because he was among the strongest of his team which makes Megagross incredibly strong by default.

Most of what Pikachu accomplished was related to Pikachu's sheer determination which was stated by the announcer. Not every high tier pokemon exhibits that heightened level of determination that Pikachu did, so knocking off Metagross for creating an opening that most wouldn't be able to take advantage of is really dishonest.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Why? It pushed Diantha's mega gardevoir so I think It could beat mega houndoom
Perhaps if Diantha went tryhard from the start...

M-Houndoom gave MCX a tough fight (MCX crashed into the ground and was reeling); basically one more hit and it would have lost. Let us not forget when M-Doom had MCX pinned for a point blank attack, Malva spent that time instead questioning Alain, which signifies that she was trying but certainly not going 100% to win. Considering both M-Doom and AG lost in the end to a finishing BB, I think there is definitely no way to claim AG is better.
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
I'm a bit confused. You said Kalos didn't start existing until Ash met Alexa, so I pointed out Kalos has a history.

Nevermind that though. Are you saying that the E4 members Ash faced in Hoenn/Sinnoh (at the time) were significantly weaker than the one's we saw in Kalos? I don't really understand your argument.

Besides, it seems unrealistic that there is a huge gap between E4 trainers. Siebold > Alain >>> Malva???
IIRC, you said that characters like Siebold don't develop, as otherwise the Kanto E4 would curbstomp everyone by now, which I argued against saying that it's very likely that they started to operate at the same time with the Kalos E4, thus both groups having the same amount of Exp.

Yeah, that's pretty much the point. They all are on the same Level, just as their Pokemon, thus you can't say that ZardX>Houndoom
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
IIRC, you said that characters like Siebold don't develop, as otherwise the Kanto E4 would curbstomp everyone by now, which I argued against saying that it's very likely that they started to operate at the same time with the Kalos E4, thus both groups having the same amount of Exp.

Yeah, that's pretty much the point. They all are on the same Level, just as their Pokemon, thus you can't say that ZardX>Houndoom
So by your theory, the E4 members Ash encountered at the time were miles weaker than the E4 members we saw in Kalos, since if they are equal right now they must have been a lot weaker (years of experience) when Ash met them.

This is clearly not true, as Flint's infernape one-shot Ash's infernape, and Drake easily two-shotted Pikachu and Grovyle. Unless you are suggesting that Infernape <<<<<< Flint <<<<<< Malva = AG, and consequently AG would pretty much OHKO every single member of GPICSS and win 1v5?
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
So by your theory, the E4 members Ash encountered at the time were miles weaker than the E4 members we saw in Kalos, since if they are equal right now they must have been a lot weaker (years of experience) when Ash met them.

This is clearly not true, as Flint's infernape one-shot Ash's infernape, and Drake easily two-shotted Pikachu and Grovyle. Unless you are suggesting that Infernape <<<<<< Flint <<<<<< Malva = AG, and suggesting that AG would pretty much OHKO every single member of GPICSS and win 1v5?
What are you saying dude? I said that all the E4 are equal, because they started on an equal level, thus were always on the same level. If you're very good, then there is less room to improve, so even if all the E4s improved over the course of Ash's journey, it was a marginal improvement
 
IIRC, you said that characters like Siebold don't develop, as otherwise the Kanto E4 would curbstomp everyone by now, which I argued against saying that it's very likely that they started to operate at the same time with the Kalos E4, thus both groups having the same amount of Exp.

Yeah, that's pretty much the point. They all are on the same Level, just as their Pokemon, thus you can't say that ZardX>Houndoom
Well I did mention earlier that MC-X didn't use Blast Burn, its strongest move against Mega Blastoise. Had it used that move, it's pretty much assumable that Siebold would've been defeated like Malva as well.
 
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