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Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
What are you saying dude? I said that all the E4 are equal, because they started on an equal level, thus were always on the same level. If you're very good, then there is less room to improve, so even if all the E4s improved over the course of Ash's journey, it was a marginal improvement
Ash met different E4 members during different times. So the Flint that Ash met at that time was significantly weaker than the Malva we are seeing now?

If their improvement is significant, that would contradict the anime since Flint of the E4 was powerful enough 2 sagas ago to one-shot Ash's infernape.

If their improvement is marginal, then Siebold would have barely improved since facing MCX, and would likely have been on Malva's level in ME act IV. MCX however has drastically improved, as it beat Malva after facing 9 ME trainers, and would easily beat Siebold as well.

No matter which theory you go with, it will still end up with MCX > E4
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Standby for Battle!
Person 1:MCX is Champion Level

Person 2:AG is Champion Level

Person 3:MXC is E4 Level

Person 4:AG is E4 Level

Person 5:MCX is between E4 Level and Champion Level

Person 6:AG is E4 Ace Base Level

Person 7:MCX is Champion Ace Base Level


[IMG139]http://rs1114.pbsrc.com/albums/k534/adidbunbun/hammer.gif~c200[/IMG139]
 

Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html

This source explains the fallacy relatively well.

You cannot claim that Metagross is weak simply because it hasn't been proven to be strong because it leads to two different possibilities:

a) Metagross is weak.
b) Metagross is actually pretty damn powerful, but hasn't gotten proper screen-time.

What you do instead is present substantial evidence within the anime that does denote Metagross as being relatively weak. I don't understand how the examples you presented would ever lead you to arrive to that conclusion. Is defeating a pokemon supposed to make you seem weak? Is being used along with Alain's strongest pokemon specifically indicate that he's weak? How does trashing a Base E4 Tier pokemon initially define him as weak? I'm not even sure if you can label Metagross as "inconsistent" when it has one feat that doesn't contradict how Metagross was depicted in the series.

It's open to interpretation, but you simply haven't presented any evidence other than the fact that it "lacks feats". In all honesty, this contradicts the fundamentals of pokemon. An example that illustrates this is Ash's Greninja. Even when Alain only observed Ash-Greninja's power once, he was fascinated by his power and deemed him as a worthy opponent. This wouldn't be possible if the writers operated on a similar way of thinking. One example is enough to emphasize a pokemon's power and simply having one impressive performance in the anime shouldn't rank it as weak.
Low tier 2 / high tier 3 is not weak, it is a very respectable tier. I might have said somewhere that it was weak, but what I meant was it is no where near tier 1 from what it has shown IMO. Is there a possibility that it is strong? Absolutely. However, then I can simply claim things like "Paul's Weavile is strong because it was consistently used by Paul". Anyone can think that, but general consensus will usually conclude Paul's Weavile is the weakest link. We can't play the "off-screen" game, because all of us have different interpretations. If we are playing the off-screen game, then this discussion is futile because I specifically claimed this as my opinion, and not as a cold fact. I said this before, but making tiers for Pokemon with one or two short appearances is next to impossible to do, which is why I tend to stay away from it. I know I was the one to light the fire, but wanted to know why people though Metagross was tier 1, and I'm still not convinced. To me, what it has shown does not translate to such a high tier placement. However, like I said, this is heavy on how one interpreted the scene, so I won't go out and classify people who thinks Metagross is tier one as "wrong", but I certainly won't back off from my original view because I'm not convinced. Call me stubborn, call me stupid, call me delusional, but from what I see, we don't know how much Metagross was used against Remo, and I know I can't claim that Metagross was used in only one battle, but that goes both ways. I see the appearance as simply a way to remind the viewers that Alain has a Metagross, and didn't want to show off the rest of this team just yet.

The only issue with that is we only have one example to go off of and in spite of that, the writers evidently gave Metagross a phenomenal performance by pummeling Pikachu who could simply run up to Alain's Charizard and land two preemptive attacks with little reaction. Simply going off of what we see, Metagross is powerful, and you're taking a rather convoluted approach in ranking Metagross simply because it hasn't demonstrated more feats.
Like you said, it is just one example, and we are right back at the problem of "not enough screentime, too much assumption". Metagross did do solid at the start against Pikachu, but ended up getting exposed in the end. That just shows it does have some versatility and power, but also has some fair share of weaknesses. Of course all Pokemon have weaknesses, but being exposed in the only fight it was shown, I just don't see how it can be tier 1. Small sample size, but that's the breaks you get for Pokemon that does not appear often.

Sure, but that doesn't really address that Metagross was a specific choice much like Charizard was who also was the strongest. Given that, it makes the most sense that Metagross was selected because he was among the strongest of his team which makes Megagross incredibly strong by default.

Most of what Pikachu accomplished was related to Pikachu's sheer determination which was stated by the announcer. Not every high tier pokemon exhibits that heightened level of determination that Pikachu did, so knocking off Metagross for creating an opening that most wouldn't be able to take advantage of is really dishonest.
We are really assuming a lot of assumptions here. We only saw one match, and of course it is possible the one match we saw was the match that exposed Metagross, which is why I'm open for different tiers. However, then everyone is making different assumptions, which once again, brings up my issue with making tiers for Pokemon that does not appear often.

Anyways, I guess you and a couple others convinced me it's not tier 3 but rather tier 2, so hats off to that.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Low tier 2 / high tier 3 is not weak, it is a very respectable tier. I might have said somewhere that it was weak, but what I meant was it is no where near tier 1 from what it has shown IMO. Is there a possibility that it is strong? Absolutely. However, then I can simply claim things like "Paul's Weavile is strong because it was consistently used by Paul". Anyone can think that, but general consensus will usually conclude Paul's Weavile is the weakest link. We can't play the "off-screen" game, because all of us have different interpretations. If we are playing the off-screen game, then this discussion is futile because I specifically claimed this as my opinion, and not as a cold fact. I said this before, but making tiers for Pokemon with one or two short appearances is next to impossible to do, which is why I tend to stay away from it. I know I was the one to light the fire, but wanted to know why people though Metagross was tier 1, and I'm still not convinced. To me, what it has shown does not translate to such a high tier placement. However, like I said, this is heavy on how one interpreted the scene, so I won't go out and classify people who thinks Metagross is tier one as "wrong", but I certainly won't back off from my original view because I'm not convinced. Call me stubborn, call me stupid, call me delusional, but from what I see, we don't know how much Metagross was used against Remo, and I know I can't claim that Metagross was used in only one battle, but that goes both ways. I see the appearance as simply a way to remind the viewers that Alain has a Metagross, and didn't want to show off the rest of this team just yet.



Like you said, it is just one example, and we are right back at the problem of "not enough screentime, too much assumption". Metagross did do solid at the start against Pikachu, but ended up getting exposed in the end. That just shows it does have some versatility and power, but also has some fair share of weaknesses. Of course all Pokemon have weaknesses, but being exposed in the only fight it was shown, I just don't see how it can be tier 1. Small sample size, but that's the breaks you get for Pokemon that does not appear often.



We are really assuming a lot of assumptions here. We only saw one match, and of course it is possible the one match we saw was the match that exposed Metagross, which is why I'm open for different tiers. However, then everyone is making different assumptions, which once again, brings up my issue with making tiers for Pokemon that does not appear often.

Anyways, I guess you and a couple others convinced me it's not tier 3 but rather tier 2, so hats off to that.
Since it was beating the crap out of KL Pikachu before it was exposed, it should be a pretty powerful pokemon as long as Alain doesn't use it against rat-sized opponents.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
With respect to the first 6 regions we have 5 Champions, a former Champion (Wallace) and 20 E4s. Excluding them and Tobias, is there anyone any of you would put over GPICSS Ash?
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
With respect to the first 6 regions we have 5 Champions, a former Champion (Wallace) and 20 E4s. Excluding them and Tobias, is there anyone any of you would put over GPICSS Ash?
Maybe Lysandre, depending on what other Pokemon he has under his belt. Brandon and Paul would pose a challenge but don't have any chance of winning.
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Person 1:MCX is Champion Level

Person 2:AG is Champion Level

Person 3:MXC is E4 Level

Person 4:AG is E4 Level

Person 5:MCX is between E4 Level and Champion Level

Person 6:AG is E4 Ace Base Level

Person 7:MCX is Champion Ace Base Level


[IMG139]http://rs1114.pbsrc.com/albums/k534/adidbunbun/hammer.gif~c200[/IMG139]

This is what happens when you have fanboy opinions meeting against more realistic ones.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Maybe Lysandre, depending om what other Pokemon he has under his belt.
Isn't it implied that Lysandre was enhancing the power of his Pokémon with his machine gear?
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Where do you place AG and MCX?
Not the level where AG can supposedly one-shot Ash's decent Pokemon in seconds as posters imagine. AG momentarily pushed back Mega Gardevoir, but by the time Ash called the next attack, M-Gardevoir was already back up.

MCX lost to Mega Blastoise. MCX got smacked by Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon, whereas Mega Metagross held its own. MCX defeated Mega Houndoom, but if Malva went full tryhard and had M-Doom mangle MCX when it had it pinned instead of asking Alain a question, probably could have won (since MCX was later reeling even without that extra damage). And MCX > AG.

Both are Pokemon that can hold their own against E4 Pokemon, maybe even win against some, but lose to others (I think Flint's Infernape can beat both).
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Alain trained intensely between ME Act 3 and 4, therefore MC X feats prior to ME Act 4 become inadmissible. Alain then proceeded to beat Malva (no evidence she was holding back) in order to show progression. Alain's drive exponentially increased after this (because of Chespie) and his Charizard has gone on to beat who knows how many Mega Pokémon, GYM Pokémon and league Pokémon since then, so MC X is definitively over E4 Mega lvl by the end of the KL. Mastered Ash-Greninja overpowered suppressed Mega Gardevoir that was stronger than Base Gardevoir so AG is above Base Ace Champion lvl. The fairest interpretation is that Champion Mega > Mega Charizard X > E4 Mega ~ Ash-Greninja > Base Ace Champion Pokémon. There is absolutely zero evidence to assume any significant disparity between the base Pokémon of the regional Champions and the E4s of different regions. The previous Champions and E4s would gain access to ME/Z-moves/equivalent game mechanic if re-introduced (like Steven). This would mean that MC X and AG would be above the power of that of any previous non-Mega E4 and Champion Pokémon as they were shown to have at the point in time they were last shown in the anime. Once again, there is no valid reason to assume otherwise. For the record I don't even think Kalos is Ash's best regional team or more specifically I'd say Kanto/OI > Peak Hoenn = Sinnoh = Kalos > Johto = Unova. I just think Peak Hoenn is massively over HL Hoenn (specifically Sceptile and Peakachu). Also HL Grovyle, Torkoal and Corphish don't have the minimum capabilities to even remotely faze Ash-Greninja from any conceivable standpoint. The curbstomping Ash-Greninja would give those 3 would be akin to how Cynthia curbstomped Paul's first 3 Pokémon (if not even worse than that). Are they capable of hitting AG? No! Are they capable of dodging AG's attacks? No! Are they capable of withstanding AG's attacks? No! (especially SE attacks. Corphish gets murdered by a pair of Cuts and that's being generous)

Just because the conclusion of an argument yields an outcome that doesn't line up with someone's vision doesn't mean that the conclusion looses validity.
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Not the level where AG can supposedly one-shot Ash's decent Pokemon in seconds as posters imagine. AG momentarily pushed back Mega Gardevoir, but by the time Ash called the next attack, M-Gardevoir was already back up.

MCX lost to Mega Blastoise. MCX got smacked by Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon, whereas Mega Metagross held its own. MCX defeated Mega Houndoom, but if Malva went full tryhard and had M-Doom mangle MCX when it had it pinned instead of asking Alain a question, probably could have won (since MCX was later reeling even without that extra damage). And MCX > AG.

Both are Pokemon that can hold their own against E4 Pokemon, maybe even win against some, but lose to others (I think Flint's Infernape can beat both).
Fair enough. Personally I think Mega-Metagross > Mega-Gardevoir > MCX > AG >= average champion base ace ~=~ average E4 mega ace >= Flint's Infernape > average E4 base ace

Here's why:
Diantha's mega-evolved her Gardevoir to keep up with AG so I assume AG ~=~ base Gardevoir (there would be no point in ME if base Gardevoir could keep up with AG)

I'd agree that there is a chance that Malva could have won had she not spent time teasing Alain, but if MCX was fresh there would be no chance (this is under the assumption that the other 8 ME trainers were around the same level as the first, so MCX would have been pretty exhausted by the time it battled Malva). MCX also improved since then, like he did between each ME act.

AG brought an (almost fresh) and stronger MCX to the verge of fainting, so I'd place MCX > AG > average E4 mega ace >= Flint's Infernape (assuming Malva is average). Flint's infernape was stronger than the other E4 aces in Sinnoh, but I don't think it would be enough to counteract ME so I'd put it close to the same level as the average E4 mega ace.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
Fair enough. Personally I think Mega-Metagross > Cynthia Garchomp = Mega-Gardevoir > MCX > AG = average champion base ace > average E4 mega ace >= Flint's Infernape > average E4 base ace

Here's why:
Diantha's mega-evolved her Gardevoir to keep up with AG so I assume AG ~=~ base Gardevoir (there would be no point in ME if base Gardevoir could keep up with AG)

I'd agree that there is a chance that Malva could have won had she not spent time teasing Alain, but if MCX was fresh there would be no chance (this is under the assumption that the other 8 ME trainers were around the same level as the first, so MCX would have been pretty exhausted by the time it battled Malva). MCX also improved since then, like he did between each ME act.

AG brought an (almost fresh) and stronger MCX to the verge of fainting, so I'd place MCX > AG > average E4 mega ace >= Flint's Infernape (assuming Malva is average). Flint's infernape was stronger than the other E4 aces in Sinnoh, so I'd put it around the same level as the average E4 mega ace.
The only reasonable point for assuming that Flint's Infernape is stronger than any other E4 ace was that line about Infernape beating 2 of Cynthia's Pokémon; however, those Pokémon could have just been weakened by Flint's other Pokémon. The reason why Infernape vs Garchomp got so much focus was so that Ash could vicariously see himself through Flint. I can blatantly admit that I'm a Cynthia fanboy, but I can also put that bias aside and see that none of her feats were unexpected of a regional champion. There's no way of knowing how 1 Champion's Pokémon would do against another Champion's Pokémon when both have access to the same mechanics (ME/Z-moves) so the safest bet is to assume that their equals. Even if there is a difference, it should be minor at best.

Metagross and Gardevoir were portrayed as equals during the TF finale, so I'm not sure how Mega Metagross is over Mega Gardevoir.
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
The only reasonable point for assuming that Flint's Infernape is stronger than any other E4 ace was that line about Infernape beating 2 of Cynthia's Pokémon; however, those Pokémon could have just been weakened by Flint's other Pokémon. The reason why Infernape vs Garchomp got so much focus was so that Ash could vicariously see himself through Flint. I can blatantly admit that I'm a Cynthia fanboy, but I can also put that bias aside and see that none of her feats were unexpected of a regional champion. There's no way of knowing how 1 Champion's Pokémon would do against another Champion's Pokémon when both have access to the same mechanics (ME/Z-moves) so the safest bet is to assume that their equals. Even if there is a difference, it should be minor at best.

Metagross and Gardevoir were portrayed as equals during the TF finale, so I'm not sure how Mega Metagross is over Mega Gardevoir.
Fixed:

I suppose I got caught up with a bit of Cynthia/Flint bias as well :p (fav champ + E4 member)
I do rate Flint above the others though since he did put up a decent performance against Cynthia's Garchomp (I am assuming that the average E4 trainer would not be able to). I am also highballing that he defeated two of Cynthia's pokemon on his own.

Also, I still think Mega-Metagross > Mega-Gardevoir though. All TF finale showed was that their psychic attacks were equal in power, but I think Metagross has the edge in endurance/physical strength, since it took a MCX blast burn (which is no joke) like a boss, whereas Gardevoir got knocked down by AG multiple times. Also (this doesn't really count but it looked cool) seeing how Metagross' meteor mash almost levelled a mountain makes him look stronger xD.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Fixed:

I suppose I got caught up with a bit of Cynthia/Flint bias as well :p (fav champ + E4 member)
I do rate Flint above the others though since he did put up a decent performance against Cynthia's Garchomp (I am assuming that the average E4 trainer would not be able to). I am also highballing that he defeated two of Cynthia's pokemon on his own.

Also, I still think Mega-Metagross > Mega-Gardevoir though. All TF finale showed was that their psychic attacks were equal in power, but I think Metagross has the edge in endurance/physical strength, since it took a MCX blast burn (which is no joke) like a boss, whereas Gardevoir got knocked down by AG multiple times. Also (this doesn't really count but it looked cool) seeing how Metagross' meteor mash almost levelled a mountain makes him look stronger xD.
I don't blame you since they're my favs too. I guess Infernape was meant to be considered above other E4 base aces since why else would the writers bother throwing in that line, but I'd still say it's bounded from above by an E4 Mega (which you seem to agree with). The Blast Burn feat is impressive but remember this was MC X before ME Act 4, so how that MC X compares with the AG against Diantha isn't clear.
Yeah that was freakin cool. Maybe MM is stronger than MG, but still only by a minor amount.

Any particular reason for why a base Ace Champion Pokémon >= E4 Mega?
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
The curbstomping Ash-Greninja would give those 3 would be akin to how Cynthia curbstomped Paul's first 3 Pokémon (if not even worse than that). Are they capable of hitting AG? No! Are they capable of dodging AG's attacks? No! Are they capable of withstanding AG's attacks? No! (especially SE attacks. Corphish gets murdered by a pair of Cuts and that's being generous)
This is precisely the overrating/circlejerk I'm talking about.

#Animationmakestheman #NoXYbias #phanpycrosscredit.


Here's why: Diantha's mega-evolved her Gardevoir to keep up with AG so I assume AG ~=~ base Gardevoir (there would be no point in ME if base Gardevoir could keep up with AG)
It's not as if Gardevoir are the fastest species. Keep in mind Diantha wanted to learn about the bond phenomenon (that was the point of the battle), and the extent of the AG's power, so having Gardevoir in Mega form adds insurance to draw out more from the frog.

I'd agree that there is a chance that Malva could have won had she not spent time teasing Alain, but if MCX was fresh there would be no chance (this is under the assumption that the other 8 ME trainers were around the same level as the first, so MCX would have been pretty exhausted by the time it battled Malva). MCX also improved since then, like he did between each ME act.
There's no telling the quality of each Mega (some of those were at type-disadvantage) - for all we know, that Mega Alakazam was done for once that Dragon Claw hit, nor the time between each opponent (instantaneously or a brief respite like when Manon spoke to Alain), nor the amount of berries and supplements and healing MCX received after each battle. But yeah, once you factor in freshness, it could go either way.

AG brought an (almost fresh) and stronger MCX to the verge of fainting, so I'd place MCX > AG > average E4 mega ace >= Flint's Infernape (assuming Malva is average). Flint's infernape was stronger than the other E4 aces in Sinnoh, but I don't think it would be enough to counteract ME so I'd put it close to the same level as the average E4 mega ace.
AG had MCX stagger momentarily but still standing, which doesn't necessarily signify it was about to faint after the next hit (heck, M-Houndoom looked like it brought MCX closer to defeat with MCX crashing/dragging into the ground plus visibly reeling). AG knocked M-Gardevoir to the ground, but we all know that M-Gardevoir was more than ready afterwards.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
I don't blame you since they're my favs too. I guess Infernape was meant to be considered above other E4 base aces since why else would the writers bother throwing in that line, but I'd still say it's bounded from above by an E4 Mega (which you seem to agree with). The Blast Burn feat is impressive but remember this was MC X before ME Act 4, so how that MC X compares with the AG against Diantha isn't clear.
Yeah that was freakin cool. Maybe MM is stronger than MG, but still only by a minor amount.

Any particular reason for why a base Ace Champion Pokémon >= E4 Mega?
I assume AG ~=~ base Ace Champion since it forced Diantha to mega-evolve in order to keep up
AG > E4 mega ace base it faced a stronger and fresher MCX, and came closer to beating it.
The difference is not astronomical though.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I assume AG ~=~ base Ace Champion since it forced Diantha to mega-evolve in order to keep up
AG > E4 mega ace base it faced a stronger and fresher MCX, and came closer to beating it.
The difference is not astronomical though.
I see your point; however, Mastered AG overpowered a Suppressed Mega Gardevoir that should at the very least be >= base Gardevoir, so we can say AG > base Ace Champion. Even though AG did nearly beat a stronger and fresher MC X, we can't know what MC X's health (different from stamina) was against Malva since we saw him using a Potion after the 6th battle and we don't know how many other times Alain healed MC X. We do know that Alain didn't heal MC X after battle 9, but even if we assume trainer 9 dealt the same damage as trainer 1, it still seems as though Pikachu dealt more damage with Thunderbolt due to the kneeling. I'm not entirely sure that AG can beat an E4 Mega, but at the very least it should be in the same range of power as an E4 Mega.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
It's not as if Gardevoir are the fastest species. Keep in mind Diantha wanted to learn about the bond phenomenon (that was the point of the battle), and the extent of the AG's power, so having Gardevoir in Mega form adds insurance to draw out more from the frog.
In the anime, Diantha's Gardevoir is pretty much god-speed. Pikachu and the former champion couldn't even touch it, and it moves so fast it is depicted as teleportation (Gardevoir already has 4 moves: Psychic, Shadow ball, Moon blast, reflect).

Yes, how AG compares with a base champion ace is not very clear, hence I put AG ~=~ base champion ace.

Lowball: Gardevoir > AG, but not by a large margin, or else there wouldn't be much need for mega-evolution.

Highball: AG > Gardevoir, Gardevoir was outpaced and out-powered (Diantha said that if AG's first cut had landed, the battle would have been over)



There's no telling the quality of each Mega (some of those were at type-disadvantage) - for all we know, that Mega Alakazam was done for once that Dragon Claw hit, nor the time between each opponent (instantaneously or a brief respite like when Manon spoke to Alain), nor the amount of berries and supplements and healing MCX received after each battle. But yeah, once you factor in freshness, it could go either way.
We have to make some assumptions here, and it would be the logical choice to say that they did not differ massively. I thought that Mega-alakazam falling was skipped to the end of the battle, but I suppose that is open to the viewer's interpretation.

It was instantaneous, the second trainer came in and said "no time to rest". Letting Alain talk to Mairin for a brief moment was probably an exception.

Berries heal poison and potions cure injuries, but there is no doubt that MCX was fatigued.

I suppose the state of MCX after battling 9 ME trainers is open to different interpretations, but he would be pretty wiped out if you just assume the most logical choice.

AG had MCX stagger momentarily but still standing, which doesn't necessarily signify it was about to faint after the next hit (heck, M-Houndoom looked like it brought MCX closer to defeat with MCX crashing/dragging into the ground plus visibly reeling). AG knocked M-Gardevoir to the ground, but we all know that M-Gardevoir was more than ready afterwards.
Staggering in the anime is the classic sign that a pokemon is about to faint. Mega-Houndoom forced MCX pretty hard, but you know you are about to faint when you have trouble trying to stand up.

I see your point; however, Mastered AG overpowered a Suppressed Mega Gardevoir that should at the very least be >= base Gardevoir, so we can say AG > base Ace Champion. Even though AG did nearly beat a stronger and fresher MC X, we can't know what MC X's health (different from stamina) was against Malva since we saw him using a Potion after the 6th battle and we don't know how many other times Alain healed MC X. We do know that Alain didn't heal MC X after battle 9, but even if we assume trainer 9 dealt the same damage as trainer 1, it still seems as though Pikachu dealt more damage with Thunderbolt due to the kneeling. I'm not entirely sure that AG can beat an E4 Mega, but at the very least it should be in the same range of power as an E4 Mega.
I think it is very plausible that AG > base Gardevoir, but since we don't know the extent to which Mega-Gardevoir was suppressed I'm going to play it safe. We don't know his health, but I would assume his stamina was pretty low. As for Pikachu, I'm having a bit of an internal conflict. It looked to me that Alain let Pikachu attack freely to see his strength (he easily had enough time to tell Charizard to do something), and I don't see why he would do that if it significantly damaged Charizard. On the other hand, Pikachu made him kneel.

Even if AG>E4 mega, it will not be by much
 
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