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Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

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Genaller

Silver Soul
This is precisely the overrating/circlejerk I'm talking about.

#Animationmakestheman #NoXYbias #phanpycrosscredit.
I have no problems stating that best Kanto/OI team > best Kalos team = best Hoenn team, so it's clearly not an XY bias. At best you could claim I have a GPICSS bias (even though I can justify any of the claims I make about 1 of them), even though it's you who circlejerks the HL. Until the TOP 32 nothing about the HL should be particularly stressful (3 double battles means trainers with only 6 Pokémon only need each Pokémon to battle once). Johto had 6 vs 6 battles from the TOP 16 which would only be 1 fewer than the HL Also more entrants does not equate to a higher aggregate quality of trainer. If anything, the SL easily had the highest aggregate quality of trainer even though it has the lowest entrance rate tied with the KL. This "Grueling", "Deep Field" nonsense you keep spouting has no concrete basis whatsoever. So I'll say it again, HL Grovyle, Corphish and Torkoal aren't doing jack against AG.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
I have no problems stating that best Kanto/OI team > best Kalos team = best Hoenn team, so it's clearly not an XY bias. At best you could claim I have a GPICSS bias (even though I can justify any of the claims I make about 1 of them), even though it's you who circlejerks the HL. Until the TOP 32 nothing about the HL should be particularly stressful (3 double battles means trainers with only 6 Pokémon only need each Pokémon to battle once). Johto had 6 vs 6 battles from the TOP 16 which would only be 1 fewer than the HL Also more entrants does not equate to a higher aggregate quality of trainer. If anything, the SL easily had the highest aggregate quality of trainer even though it has the lowest entrance rate tied with the KL. This "Grueling", "Deep Field" nonsense you keep spouting has no concrete basis whatsoever. So I'll say it again, HL Grovyle, Corphish and Torkoal aren't doing jack against AG.
Surely if AG > Flint's Infernape it should be able to defeat Pikachu, Buizel and Infernape as well?
imo his Kalos team would beat his Sinnoh team
 

Ash-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
Low tier 2 / high tier 3 is not weak, it is a very respectable tier. I might have said somewhere that it was weak, but what I meant was it is no where near tier 1 from what it has shown IMO. Is there a possibility that it is strong? Absolutely. However, then I can simply claim things like "Paul's Weavile is strong because it was consistently used by Paul". Anyone can think that, but general consensus will usually conclude Paul's Weavile is the weakest link. We can't play the "off-screen" game, because all of us have different interpretations. If we are playing the off-screen game, then this discussion is futile because I specifically claimed this as my opinion, and not as a cold fact. I said this before, but making tiers for Pokemon with one or two short appearances is next to impossible to do, which is why I tend to stay away from it. I know I was the one to light the fire, but wanted to know why people though Metagross was tier 1, and I'm still not convinced. To me, what it has shown does not translate to such a high tier placement. However, like I said, this is heavy on how one interpreted the scene, so I won't go out and classify people who thinks Metagross is tier one as "wrong", but I certainly won't back off from my original view because I'm not convinced. Call me stubborn, call me stupid, call me delusional, but from what I see, we don't know how much Metagross was used against Remo, and I know I can't claim that Metagross was used in only one battle, but that goes both ways. I see the appearance as simply a way to remind the viewers that Alain has a Metagross, and didn't want to show off the rest of this team just yet.



Like you said, it is just one example, and we are right back at the problem of "not enough screentime, too much assumption". Metagross did do solid at the start against Pikachu, but ended up getting exposed in the end. That just shows it does have some versatility and power, but also has some fair share of weaknesses. Of course all Pokemon have weaknesses, but being exposed in the only fight it was shown, I just don't see how it can be tier 1. Small sample size, but that's the breaks you get for Pokemon that does not appear often.



We are really assuming a lot of assumptions here. We only saw one match, and of course it is possible the one match we saw was the match that exposed Metagross, which is why I'm open for different tiers. However, then everyone is making different assumptions, which once again, brings up my issue with making tiers for Pokemon that does not appear often.

Anyways, I guess you and a couple others convinced me it's not tier 3 but rather tier 2, so hats off to that.
That's fair. I respect your opinion.
 

Ash-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
Serena, Clemont, and Bonnie stated that Ash-Greninja (Imperfect) was as fast as Gardevoir and even "feeling the pressure," so Ash-Greninja is decisively above a Champion's Base Ace.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Surely if AG > Flint's Infernape it should be able to defeat Pikachu, Buizel and Infernape as well?
imo his Kalos team would beat his Sinnoh team
When I say best team, I'm using Peakachu (full cumulative experience). There was a space of a few months between that battle and the SL, so Infernape likely did get stronger. I'm certain AG would dominate Infernape for the Mose part, but with its Ultra Powered Blaze, Infernape would likely get in a good deal of damage before falling. Gliscor and Hawlucha are around even, and so are Torterra and Goodra. Come to think of it, the Kalos team would beat the DP team in a straight up 6 vs 6, but I'd still say they're close in strength. The way I rated Ash's regional teams was by adding the tier numbers from my list and I get:

Kanto/OI: 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 10
Johto: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 18
Hoenn: 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 13
Sinnoh: 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 +3 = 13
Unova: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 18
Kalos: 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 13

Now this method of rating isn't perfect since there is variation within the same tier, but it gives a good estimate regarding where the teams stand relative to eachother. I guess a better way of stating the results would be Kanto/OI > Hoenn ~ Sinnoh ~ Kalos > Johto ~ Unova.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
It was instantaneous, the second trainer came in and said "no time to rest". Letting Alain talk to Mairin for a brief moment was probably an exception.
We have only a sample size of 2 v 1, so it's difficult to assume anything. Most likely, there would have at least been an opportunity for Charizard to receive any healing should it needed it.

Berries heal poison and potions cure injuries, but there is no doubt that MCX was fatigued. I suppose the state of MCX after battling 9 ME trainers is open to different interpretations, but he would be pretty wiped out if you just assume the most logical choice.
Obviously the feat is impressive, but I would also say E4-level trainers tryharding could run the gauntlet (like if Malva did it with M-Doom).

Staggering in the anime is the classic sign that a pokemon is about to faint. Mega-Houndoom forced MCX pretty hard, but you know you are about to faint when you have trouble trying to stand up.
Pikachu also had Charizard stagger and fall to its knees, but we saw Charizard had plenty left in the tank afterwards. MCX, in the distance shot, wasn't on the ground and struggling to get up (it was standing and just staggered but remained upright).

This "Grueling", "Deep Field" nonsense you keep spouting has no concrete basis whatsoever. So I'll say it again, HL Grovyle, Corphish and Torkoal aren't doing jack against AG.
Considering the fact that even the champion faced difficult battles in the earlier rounds, and you have strong trainers losing before the quarterfinals, that does mean the field was deep. And any league with five consecutive full battles on top of the earlier rounds is grueling. But okay man, you can keep telling yourself that somehow AG KO's Corphish with a single Cut.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Considering the fact that even the champion faced difficult battles in the earlier rounds, and you have strong trainers losing before the quarterfinals, that does mean the field was deep. And any league with five consecutive full battles on top of the earlier rounds is grueling. But okay man, you can keep telling yourself that somehow AG KO's Corphish with a single Cut.
Again being a CC just means your better than everyone who entered that year. Nah HL was a broad field. SL was a deep field. The earlier rounds can't contribute to stamina issues, so they're irrelevant when considering how "Grueling" a league is. Yeah except in the Johto league we actually saw a Pokémon having major stamina issues whereas we didn't see anything of the sort in the HL. I'd say AG's Cut > Hariyama's Focus Punch which did OHK HL Corphish so yeah.
 
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We have only a sample size of 2 v 1, so it's difficult to assume anything. Most likely, there would have at least been an opportunity for Charizard to receive any healing should it needed it.



Obviously the feat is impressive, but I would also say E4-level trainers tryharding could run the gauntlet (like if Malva did it with M-Doom).



Pikachu also had Charizard stagger and fall to its knees, but we saw Charizard had plenty left in the tank afterwards. MCX, in the distance shot, wasn't on the ground and struggling to get up (it was standing and just staggered but remained upright).



Considering the fact that even the champion faced difficult battles in the earlier rounds, and you have strong trainers losing before the quarterfinals, that does mean the field was deep. And any league with five consecutive full battles on top of the earlier rounds is grueling. But okay man, you can keep telling yourself that somehow AG KO's Corphish with a single Cut.
Falling on knees and staggering is different lol. Pikachu brought Charizard to his knees while Ash-Greninja made MC-X stagger and stumble, which is a way of showing in the anime that a Pokemon is close to fainting. Against Mega Houndoom, MC-X crashed to the ground but got up and destroyed Mega Houndoom with Blast Burn. Ash-Greninja did faint from the collision between Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken in the end, but do I need to remind you that Ash-Greninja cancelled Blast Burn once earlier in the battle by slamming its Shuriken onto the ground, something which Mega Houndoom couldn't do?

And Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken sent Mega Gardevoir flying back sprawling through the ground. It did serious damage, which was evident when Mega Gardevoir de-mega evolved to Gardevoir and fell from exhaustion after sending Team Rocket blasting off.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Falling on knees and staggering is different lol. Pikachu brought Charizard to his knees while Ash-Greninja made MC-X stagger and stumble, which is a way of showing in the anime that a Pokemon is close to fainting.
Pikachu's Quick Attack made MCX stagger backwards, and then Thunderbolt brought it to its knees. MCX wasn't close to fainting.

Against Mega Houndoom, MC-X crashed to the ground but got up and destroyed Mega Houndoom with Blast Burn. Ash-Greninja did faint from the collision between Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken in the end, but do I need to remind you that Ash-Greninja cancelled Blast Burn once earlier in the battle by slamming its Shuriken onto the ground, something which Mega Houndoom couldn't do?
There's a difference between standing still, seeing a BB coming forth, and countering it, and another to stop it while in the midst of an attack. Heck, when AG did use the Super Shuriken and powerless to stop the BB, he did get KO'd immediately afterwards.

And Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken sent Mega Gardevoir flying back sprawling through the ground. It did serious damage, which was evident when Mega Gardevoir de-mega evolved to Gardevoir and fell from exhaustion after sending Team Rocket blasting off.
Diantha also told M-G to use "full power" to break through TR's binding contraption.
 
Pikachu's Quick Attack made MCX stagger backwards, and then Thunderbolt brought it to its knees. MCX wasn't close to fainting
But that was base Charizard and Charizard was completely fresh then, and Pikachu's Quick Attack just pushed it backwards. After the huge collision between Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken it looked for a second that MC-X was about to stumble and fall down. That suggested that it was close to its limits.

There's a difference between standing still, seeing a BB coming forth, and countering it, and another to stop it while in the midst of an attack. Heck, when AG did use the Super Shuriken and powerless to stop the BB, he did get KO'd immediately afterwards.
Not sure what you're saying here. Ash-Greninja fainted because of the huge collision that occurred, not only because of Blast Burn, and MC-X survived that collision because of its higher resistance. And it is not quite assumable that Mega Houndoom can stop Blast Burn in its tracks like Ash-Greninja did once by slamming its Shuriken onto the ground.

Diantha also told M-G to use "full power" to break through TR's binding contraption.
But the fact that it fell from exhaustion immediately suggested that it took serious damage before. And Diantha was worried about Gardevoir's well being after that hard hit. When Mega Gardevoir laid on the ground after that hit, it had some bruises on its body. Not to mention that Water Shuriken broke through a huge Shadow Ball which was powered up by multiple Shadow Balls. We can't just assume that Mega Houndoom can do the same.
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
We have only a sample size of 2 v 1, so it's difficult to assume anything. Most likely, there would have at least been an opportunity for Charizard to receive any healing should it needed it.
He was probably allowed to potion-spray/pecha berry his Charizard once in a while, but not enough time for his Charizard to replenish his stamina. The fact that the trainer said "no time to rest" indicates that it most likely applies to the whole challenge, with talking to Manon being an exception (there wasn't enough time for Charizard to recover its stamina anyways)



Obviously the feat is impressive, but I would also say E4-level trainers tryharding could run the gauntlet (like if Malva did it with M-Doom).
MCX was undoubtedly exhausted after battling 9 ME trainers. If he was fresh, I don't think Malva not taunting Alain during that one moment is enough for her to change the outcome.


Pikachu also had Charizard stagger and fall to its knees, but we saw Charizard had plenty left in the tank afterwards. MCX, in the distance shot, wasn't on the ground and struggling to get up (it was standing and just staggered but remained upright).
It's different because MCX staggered on its own, and this is always used when a pokemon is about to faint (Grovyle vs Slaking, Meowth vs Pikachu etc...). Put this is your perspective: You know you are about to faint when you are actually putting in effort to stay upright.



Considering the fact that even the champion faced difficult battles in the earlier rounds, and you have strong trainers losing before the quarterfinals, that does mean the field was deep. And any league with five consecutive full battles on top of the earlier rounds is grueling. But okay man, you can keep telling yourself that somehow AG KO's Corphish with a single Cut.
You think AG ~=~ E4 mega ace right? even E4 base Pokemon are perfectly capable of wrecking Ash's pokemon. Shellgon 2-shotted Pikachu, Altaria 2-shotted grovyle, heck even Infernape and Buizel got OHKOed, so a weaker opponent such as Corphish getting OHKOed really isn't unreasonable.
 
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GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
@snorlax512

Contemplating all of your arguments, you've convinced me that MC-X>E4, even though it'd be a hard-fought battle. As a result, I also consider AG slightly stronger than E4 mega ace, though by a relatively slim margin
 
I recently saw MC-X vs Ash-Greninja, MC-X vs Mega Houndoom and Ash-Greninja vs Mega Gardevoir. Seeing those three battles, I can say that MC-X looked in some trouble against both Ash-Greninja and Mega Houndoom, but somehow looked okay after defeating both of them. And Mega Gardevoir was pretty much reeling just after that last Water Shuriken hit. I personally now have a feeling that had Alain decided to challenge the E4 and Champion after the battle, Diantha would've surely lost her Champion title.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
But that was base Charizard and Charizard was completely fresh then, and Pikachu's Quick Attack just pushed it backwards. After the huge collision between Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken it looked for a second that MC-X was about to stumble and fall down. That suggested that it was close to its limits.
Or, as what happened against Pikachu, it could just suggest it was shaken up momentarily but still had fuel left in the tank. If MCX was on the ground, visibly struggling to get back up, sure you have a case. But it was still standing, shook for a moment, and then continued standing.


Not sure what you're saying here. Ash-Greninja fainted because of the huge collision that occurred, not only because of Blast Burn, and MC-X survived that collision because of its higher resistance. And it is not quite assumable that Mega Houndoom can stop Blast Burn in its tracks like Ash-Greninja did once by slamming its Shuriken onto the ground.
???

Except you literally see AG get thrown upwards by the BB, so he did get KO'd by it. If AG can use physical force to smash the ground, then M-Doom could easily do the same with Crunch, or just time the right moment when the terrain is about to explode to jump upwards and evade the BB.

We can't just assume that Mega Houndoom can do the same.
Um, and why exactly not?


MCX was undoubtedly exhausted after battling 9 ME trainers. If he was fresh, I don't think Malva not taunting Alain during that one moment is enough for her to change the outcome.
How exhausted is an unknown - but what's clear if Malva did take advantage of that moment, MCX would have likely lost that battle. If MCX was fully healthy, like I said, could have gone either way. No way to tell.


It's different because MCX staggered on its own, and this is always used when a pokemon is about to faint (Grovyle vs Slaking, Meowth vs Pikachu etc...). Put this is your perspective: You know you are about to faint when you are actually putting in effort to stay upright. You think AG ~=~ E4 mega ace right? even E4 base Pokemon are perfectly capable of wrecking Ash's pokemon. Shellgon 2-shotted Pikachu, Altaria 2-shotted grovyle, heck even Infernape and Buizel got OHKOed, so a weaker opponent such as Corphish getting OHKOed really isn't unreasonable.
Both came after attacks, albeit the latter resulted in an explosion.

No...I don't think that. AG can hold its own against some E4 Pokemon, maybe win against some but lose to others. Flint's Infernape is beating AG, for example. A singe Cut from AG is not taking out the Corphish that survived the doom twister of fire and water. Said AG couldn't do that to Wulfric's Abomasnow (and no, OR says that's not a different yeti lol).

-----

Man, I hope people don't start the same circlejerk antics with Z-Moves in three years from now.
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
Wasn't Corphish one-shotted by Tysons Hariyama too, or did it take damage prior to Focus Punch?
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Wasn't Corphish one-shotted by Tysons Hariyama too, or did it take damage prior to Focus Punch?
Based on the running match clock on the scoreboard, you have to assume that more of the battle wasn't depicted, and out-of-universe explanation is the lower production values (they can't do a drawn out battle like they could do in the KL).
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
Man, I hope people don't start the same circlejerk antics with Z-Moves in three years from now.
To be fair, from what we've seen so far, Kiawe/Turtonator left a crater in the ground and Ash/Pikachu managed to destroy the trees around them. They're obviously very powerful (that said, whether the Z-moves themselves are powerful or whether it's because of the Pokemon themselves are isn't established yet).
 
Or, as what happened against Pikachu, it could just suggest it was shaken up momentarily but still had fuel left in the tank. If MCX was on the ground, visibly struggling to get back up, sure you have a case. But it was still standing, shook for a moment, and then continued standing.
Right, but it did stumble in the manner of almost falling down, so probably did take damage from the collision. And MC-X was never reeling against Mega Houndoom as you mentioned earlier. It crashed on the ground, but it got up with a roar and destroyed Mega Houndoom with Blast Burn. After that it didn't seem to be damaged, it was neither sweating or panting, it roared and hugged its trainer(similarly how it roared after defeating Ash-Greninja). And Ash-Greninja also made MC-X crash onto the ground by hitting it with Aerial Ace, so crashing onto the ground doesn't mean that it was reeling.


???

Except you literally see AG get thrown upwards by the BB, so he did get KO'd by it. If AG can use physical force to smash the ground, then M-Doom could easily do the same with Crunch, or just time the right moment when the terrain is about to explode to jump upwards and evade the BB.
When was Ash-Greninja thrown upwards? All we saw was Blast Burn and the Giant orange shuriken moving towards their targets tearing through the ground, and a huge explosion occured then. Both Pokemon were obviously hit by the collision. And Ash-Greninja fainted because of the collision while MC-X stumbled. And your claim that Mega Houndoom can block Blast Burn with Cruch is laughable. When has the anime showed Crunch as such a powerful move? Ash-Greninja has some serious strength in its Shuriken, which enabled it to create a shockwave of Water which stopped Blast Burn. And the Anime has never shown Blast Burn as an evadable move. Mega Metagross floats in the air, and it was still hit by Blast Burn.

Um, and why exactly not?

Because Mega Gardevoir is Champion Diantha's Ace and it is difficult to assume that Mega Houndoom can land such a hard hit on it by breaking through its powered up Shadow Ball(combining multiple Shadow Balls).

How exhausted is an unknown - but what's clear if Malva did take advantage of that moment, MCX would have likely lost that battle. If MCX was fully healthy, like I said, could have gone either way. No way to tell.
Battling nine Mega s would definitely give an exhaustion to any Pokemon, even if it's Mega Charizard-X, much more than the two hits of Pikachu. MC-X clearly had battle marks before battling Mega Houndoom. And MC-X also got rest between battling Pikachu and Ash-Greninja. So the damage probably weared off by then.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
Based on the running match clock on the scoreboard, you have to assume that more of the battle wasn't depicted, and out-of-universe explanation is the lower production values (they can't do a drawn out battle like they could do in the KL).
We still know for a fact that Corphish didn't come out before facing Hariyama based on the scoreboard display. We can't even use production values as an excuse since the Johto league full battles had a longer run time (5-10 minutes more if I recall correctly), so they were capable of doing longer battles.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
How exhausted is an unknown - but what's clear if Malva did take advantage of that moment, MCX would have likely lost that battle. If MCX was fully healthy, like I said, could have gone either way. No way to tell.
Well, we are going to have to make some basic assumptions here if we want to compare MCX/AG to the E4

I assumed that the 8 other ME trainers were on a similar level than the first one, and fighting 9 trainers of that calibre is undoubtedly going to make MCX exhausted, hence the battle marks on Zard X before facing Malva.

If mega-Houndoom is on the a similar level, there should really be no excuse for it to lose to an exhausted MCX, taunting or not.

Both came after attacks, albeit the latter resulted in an explosion.
Charizard knelt while Pikachu was still zapping him, whereas MCX faced off against AG for a few seconds after the explosion was cleared before stumbling. This type of stumbling (especially in a standoff) is a classic anime sign that the pokemon is a whisker from fainting.

No...I don't think that. AG can hold its own against some E4 Pokemon, maybe win against some but lose to others. Flint's Infernape is beating AG, for example. A singe Cut from AG is not taking out the Corphish that survived the doom twister of fire and water. Said AG couldn't do that to Wulfric's Abomasnow (and no, OR says that's not a different yeti lol).
Seeing as it faced (and almost beat) a fresher and stronger MCX than Malva, I would place it at
~E4 mega ace level at least. I agree that Flint's infernape is stronger than most E4 base aces, but not better than the average E4 mega ace.

AG's cut is more powerful than Tucker's twister, Diantha said herself that her Gardevoir would have been knocked out if AG's cut had made contact. Wulfric's Abomasnow is stronger and has more endurance than Corphish, and aerial ace & water shrunken are not very effective.

Even at the ultimate lowball AG will not be significantly worse than Flint's infernape, who has OHKOd Infernape. Why would Corphish be any different?
 
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