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Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

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Navin

MALDREAD
To be fair, from what we've seen so far, Kiawe/Turtonator left a crater in the ground and Ash/Pikachu managed to destroy the trees around them. They're obviously very powerful (that said, whether the Z-moves themselves are powerful or whether it's because of the Pokemon themselves are isn't established yet).
Right, I just don't want to be hearing "Turtonator with Inferno Overdive wipes out Cynthia's Garchomp."


so crashing onto the ground doesn't mean that it was reeling.
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/YEmY2hf.jpg[/IMG300]

When was Ash-Greninja thrown upwards?
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/Uv8eGET.jpg[/IMG300]

Because Mega Gardevoir is Champion Diantha's Ace and it is difficult to assume that Mega Houndoom can land such a hard hit on it by breaking through its powered up Shadow Ball(combining multiple Shadow Balls).
Except Malva is an Elite 4.

Battling nine Mega s would definitely give an exhaustion to any Pokemon, even if it's Mega Charizard-X, much more than the two hits of Pikachu. MC-X clearly had battle marks before battling Mega Houndoom. And MC-X also got rest between battling Pikachu and Ash-Greninja. So the damage probably weared off by then.
The extent of exhaustion is unknown.


If mega-Houndoom is on the a similar level, there should really be no excuse for it to lose to an exhausted MCX, taunting or not.
Well those are assumptions. Don't see the issue regardless. MCX is powerful, no doubt about it, so for M-Doom to put in a near losing position (even without the point-blank free shot it had if not for Malva's taunting) is indicative of its strength. Nothing tells me AG could definitively beat said M-Doom.

Charizard knelt while Pikachu was still zapping him, whereas MCX faced off against AG for a few seconds after the explosion was cleared before stumbling. This type of stumbling (especially in a standoff) is a classic anime sign that the pokemon is a whisker from fainting.
There are examples when Pokemon had fuel in the tank even after stumbling. Take Gliscor before it faced off against Paul's Drapion - still could defeat that raid boss, and then needed more damage/stamina drain from Electivire before going down. I'm inclined to say MCX had more left.

AG's cut is more powerful than Tucker's twister,.
Lol. And Diantha didn't say Gardevoir would have been KO'd.

Even at the ultimate lowball AG will not be significantly worse than Flint's infernape
Flint's Infernape would be decisively better than AG.
 
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phanpycross

God-king

Genaller

Silver Soul
Flint's Infernape would be decisively better than AG.
Yeah no! Mastered AG > suppressed MG >= base Gardevoir (there's no way suppressed MG was actually weaker than base Gardevoir). Interestingly enough, the only feat which puts Flint's Infernape definitively over other E4 base aces was the line about it beating 2 of Cynthia's Pokémon, but aren't you the guy who likes to heavily low ball (if not flat out ignore) feats which aren't shown (e.g.: Flint's other Pokémon could have weakened those 2 Pokémon first). The only reason Infernape vs Garchomp got focus was so Ash could vicariously see himself through Flint. Barring that line (which isn't valid with respect to your system of reasoning, but is acceptable in mine) there's no direct way of knowing how Infernape stacks up against other E4 base Aces. I can put my favoritism aside and say that none of Cynthia's Garchomp's feats were unexpected from a regional champion ace Pokémon. Infernape isn't stronger than base Gardevoir or Garchomp, so AG is decisively superior to Flint's Infernape.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Well those are assumptions. Don't see the issue regardless. MCX is powerful, no doubt about it, so for M-Doom to put in a near losing position (even without the point-blank free shot it had if not for Malva's taunting) is indicative of its strength. Nothing tells me AG could definitively beat said M-Doom.
Those are pretty logical assumptions, I don't see any problem with it. A pokemon of similar level should be able to easily defeat an exhausted opponent, not just putting it in a near losing position. You always counter my mega-Sceptile arguments by saying Pikachu was tired lol.

AG ~ mega-Houndoom is a pretty reasonable estimate, seeing as the Charizard it faced was both stronger and fresher.


There are examples when Pokemon had fuel in the tank even after stumbling. Take Gliscor before it faced off against Paul's Drapion - still could defeat that raid boss, and then needed more damage/stamina drain from Electivire before going down. I'm inclined to say MCX had more left.
AG and Zard X facing each other in a standoff, coupled by the stumbling is enough to indicate that the writers intended the battle to be extremely close.

Lol. And Diantha didn't say Gardevoir would have been KO'd.
http://imgur.com/a/avDit
In the dub it says "If that had made contact, it's over for sure."


Flint's Infernape would be decisively better than AG.
Mega-Houndoom lost narrowly to a MCX who had battled 9 opponents already. AG lost narrowly to a MCX who had only took 2 attacks from Pikachu. Taking into account that Malva taunted for that one moment, AG ~ Mega-Houndoom is fairly reasonable. Flint's Infernape > average base ace, but there is no evidence to suggest it would be able to beat a mega ace.

Also, water-veil form AG forced Gardevoir to mega-evolve, So mastered AG is probably stronger than base Gardevoir. If base Gardevoir was significantly stronger than water-veil form AG, there would be no need for mega-evolution, it would still keep up comfortably and be able to test AG's power. Also, the line about Gardevoir getting K.Oed only strengthens my point.

Flint may be strong, but not as strong as Diantha. Thinking about it now, AG > Flint's Infernape
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Yeah no! Mastered AG > suppressed MG >= base Gardevoir (there's no way suppressed MG was actually weaker than base Gardevoir).
Implying that "Mastered" AG somehow gets past Diantha/reg-Gardevoir tryharding to win, and not use battling as a tool to learn more of the AG phenomenon.


Interestingly enough, the only feat which puts Flint's Infernape definitively over other E4 base aces was the line about it beating 2 of Cynthia's Pokémon, but aren't you the guy who likes to heavily low ball (if not flat out ignore) feats which aren't shown (e.g.: Flint's other Pokémon could have weakened those 2 Pokémon first). The only reason Infernape vs Garchomp got focus was so Ash could vicariously see himself through Flint. Barring that line (which isn't valid with respect to your system of reasoning, but is acceptable in mine) there's no direct way of knowing how Infernape stacks up against other E4 base Aces. I can put my favoritism aside and say that none of Cynthia's Garchomp's feats were unexpected from a regional champion ace Pokémon. Infernape isn't stronger than base Gardevoir or Garchomp, so AG is decisively superior to Flint's Infernape.
???
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Implying that "Mastered" AG somehow gets past Diantha/reg-Gardevoir tryharding to win, and not use battling as a tool to learn more of the AG phenomenon.
Just plain logic. If Full Power base Gardevoir > Suppressed Mega Gardevoir, then Diantha would have just used regular Gardevoir's full power instead of bothering to use ME; however, Diantha did use ME, therefore Suppressed Mega Gardevoir >= Full Power base Gardevoir.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Just plain logic. If Full Power base Gardevoir > Suppressed Mega Gardevoir, then Diantha would have just used regular Gardevoir's full power instead of bothering to use ME; however, Diantha did use ME, therefore Suppressed Mega Gardevoir >= Full Power base Gardevoir.
ME Gardevoir gives Diantha insurance in learning of the extent of this unknown being's power.

snorlax512[U said:
;18291853]Those are pretty logical assumptions, I don't see any problem with it. A pokemon of similar level should be able to easily defeat an exhausted opponent, not just putting it in a near losing position. You always counter my mega-Sceptile arguments by saying Pikachu was tired lol. AG ~ mega-Houndoom is a pretty reasonable estimate, seeing as the Charizard it faced was both stronger and fresher.
Once again, the extent of exhaustion is unknown, considering break span + various healing apparatuses. And if ME opponents #2-#9 happened to be Trevor's MCY level, then MCX doesn't suffer that much wear and tear.

AG and Zard X facing each other in a standoff, coupled by the stumbling is enough to indicate that the writers intended the battle to be extremely close. In the dub it says "If that had made contact, it's over for sure."
That's the dub. A distance shot of a stumble (not falling to its knees, not on the ground, no emphasized exhaustion marks) with literally a second later:

[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/wHNS6lB.jpg[/IMG300]

AG ~ Mega-Houndoom is fairly reasonable.
It wouldn't be a stomp either way, that's for sure.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
ME Gardevoir gives Diantha insurance in learning of the extent of this unknown being's power.
And yet that was against Veil AG. Mastered AG > Veil AG ~ Suppressed Mega Gardevoir >= base Gardevoir. At worst AG ~ Gardevoir ~ Garchomp > Infernape, so AG still decisively beats Flint's Infernape.

EDIT: Diantha's line in the official subs after Veil AG's first cut was verbatim "Had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance", so yeah mastered AG > base Gardevoir.
 
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RedJirachi

Veteran member
Anyone wonder how Ash's rank would be increased if he was able to factor Mega Evolution
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
Maldread, you try to argue that Corphish wasn't OHKOed by Hariyama using assumptions, which is fine by me, if it wasn't for the case that you try do downplay eg. Hawlucha's victory over M-Absol, even though it was implied that Lucha did it by himself
Then you are defending some areas of AG because they didn't have the biggest budget, yet at the same moment you say ZardX had still energy left because there were no bruises on his body, which, very well, could have been skipped to save time/budget.

I mean, no hate, but at least stick to your arguments, instead of using them to glorify AG
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
ME Gardevoir gives Diantha insurance in learning of the extent of this unknown being's power.
Then why didn't Gardevoir ME at the start for insurance? AG obviously posed as a sufficient threat for base Gardevoir for her to mega-evolve it, and that was water-veil form.

Also, the line about getting K.Oed indicates that she mega-evolved because she couldn't keep up, not for insurance.

That's the dub. A distance shot of a stumble (not falling to its knees, not on the ground, no emphasized exhaustion marks) with literally a second later:

[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/wHNS6lB.jpg[/IMG300]
I don't see any good reason to have both a standoff and make MCX stumble unless the writers wanted to indicate that the battle was very close.

Sub: http://imgur.com/a/avDit

It wouldn't be a stomp either way, that's for sure.
So where is your evidence that E4 base ace would beat AG, who ~ E4 mega ace and >= base Champion ace?
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Maldread, you try to argue that Corphish wasn't OHKOed by Hariyama using assumptions, which is fine by me, if it wasn't for the case that you try do downplay eg. Hawlucha's victory over M-Absol, even though it was implied that Lucha did it by himself
Those aren't similar situations.

Then you are defending some areas of AG because they didn't have the biggest budget, yet at the same moment you say ZardX had still energy left because there were no bruises on his body, which, very well, could have been skipped to save time/budget.
I mean, no hate, but at least stick to your arguments, instead of using them to glorify AG
They had MCX stagger backwards and fall on its knees earlier in the same battle, yet opted not to show a more visible reaction post-explosion. This isn't glorification buddy, it's more of grounding the circlejerk.

Then why didn't Gardevoir ME at the start for insurance? AG obviously posed as a sufficient threat for base Gardevoir for her to mega-evolve it, and that was water-veil form. Also, the line about getting K.Oed indicates that she mega-evolved because she couldn't keep up, not for insurance.
Greninja hadn't even entered AG form yet at the beginning of the match, and the water-veil form did catch her by surprise, so she opted to go ME to test the extent of his powers. If Diantha knew of AG from the start, and was in 100% battling-to-win mode, I have no doubt reg-Gardevoir would have definitely been enough.

I don't see any good reason to have both a standoff and make MCX stumble unless the writers wanted to indicate that the battle was very close. Sub: http://imgur.com/a/avDit
It could simply mean AG, this time around, managed to give MCX a better fight than previous rounds. My point is you can't assume it was nail-bitingly close either.

So where is your evidence that E4 base ace would beat AG, who ~ E4 mega ace and >= base Champion ace?
Implying that I think AG >= base Champ ace lol.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Those aren't similar situations.



They had MCX stagger backwards and fall on its knees earlier in the same battle, yet opted not to show a more visible reaction post-explosion. This isn't glorification buddy, it's more of grounding the circlejerk.



Greninja hadn't even entered AG form yet at the beginning of the match, and the water-veil form did catch her by surprise, so she opted to go ME to test the extent of his powers. If Diantha knew of AG from the start, and was in 100% battling-to-win mode, I have no doubt reg-Gardevoir would have definitely been enough.



It could simply mean AG, this time around, managed to give MCX a better fight than previous rounds. My point is you can't assume it was nail-bitingly close either.



Implying that I think AG >= base Champ ace lol.
That's wonderful. Only problem is that Diantha's explicit statement in the official sub > your opinion. AG > Base Ace Champion Pokémon.

FYI: When the other guy said you glorify AG, I believe he meant AG as in the saga (HL to be precise) which quite frankly you do. Using lower production values as an excuse for short length full matches when the JL had longer full matches (by a solid 5-10 minutes). Calling the HL a "deep field" when it's in fact a broad field and the SL clearly had the highest aggregate trainer quality. Calling the HL "grueling" when it only had 1 more full battle than the JL and unlike the JL gave no instances of a Pokémon suffering from stamina issues. Non-full battles can't even count as "grueling" as trainers can just rotate between Pokémon for each match even if they only have 6.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
That's wonderful. Only problem is that Diantha's explicit statement in the official sub > your opinion. AG > Base Ace Champion Pokémon.
I didn't realize Diantha explicitly stated, "If Gardevoir battled 100% against this Ash-amphibian, it would have lost if it did not ME."

FYI: When the other guy said you glorify AG, I believe he meant AG as in the saga (HL to be precise) which quite frankly you do.
I give AG its deserved share. 3-4 years ago, people here were thinking Staraptor trounces Swellow.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I didn't realize Diantha explicitly stated, "If Gardevoir battled 100% against this Ash-amphibian, it would have lost if it did not ME."
And how does 1 hold back their durability? "Had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance" is the official line. Mastered AG is the upper bound of Veil AG, therefore Mastered AG's Cut >= any of Veil AG's Cuts. Oh and yes AG's Cut is definitely OHKing HL Corphish. Let me summarize where I think GPICSS stands.

Ash-Greninja ~ E4 Mega Ace
Peakachu and Charizard ~ E4 base Ace
Blaze Infernape and Sceptile ~ E4 regular Pokémon
Snorlax, Greninja and Infernape ~ Stronger than non-legendary FB Aces but below E4 lvl
 

Shadao

Champion GETTO DA ZE!
If we are talking about Champions holding back, any battle can be considered holding back in order to justify tier ranks in a show that doesn't provide the exact math. All I know is that Diantha was not in control of the battle against Ash-Greninja. That's the important part. And if she not in control of the situation, then chances are that Gardevoir wouldn't have lasted long against Ash-Greninja were it not for the power strain.

Power is always in a flux, especially when we have Alain dumping the very thing that gave him the mega power he needed for Charizard. We'll be going in circles on who is stronger or not. Ultimately it boils down to one important aspect: Whatever the writer decrees.

If a writer wants Alain's Mega Charizard X to lose against Ash's Torkoal of all things, they can and will do it. Battle tiers are hard to make without proper stats from Ash's Pokémon to make the determination of which Pokémon are his strongest and which are not.
 

345ash-greninja

Royal Guard Knight
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/YEmY2hf.jpg[/IMG300][
Ok, I recently saw the battle and immediately after that scene a huge explosion occurs. So it's clearly assumable that both of the Pokemon were hit by the huge explosion.

[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/Uv8eGET.jpg[/IMG300]
So just because it closed its eyes for a moment means that it was reeling? Are you going to deny the fact that MC-X seemed very much OK after the battle and it was neither sweating not panting. It roared and hugged Alain normally. Ash-Greninja also made MC-X crash onto the ground after hitting it with Aerial Ace.

Except Malva is an Elite 4.
Yes, so? Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Mega Gardevoir.

The extent of exhaustion is unknown.

MC-X had battle marks before battling Mega Houndoom and it's common sense that it would be exhausted after battling so many Megas.

There are examples when Pokemon about to faint had fuel in the tank even after stumbling. Take Gliscor before it faced off against Paul's Drapion - still could defeat that raid boss, and then needed more damage/stamina drain from Electivire before going down. I'm inclined to say MCX had more left.
Well the stumbling was shown from a distance, but it looked for a second that MC-X was about to fall down. I will agree that MC-X looked ok after the stumbling and roared, but even after defeating Mega Houndoom MC-X didn't look tired. It roared and hugged Alain very much normally.

Flint's Infernape would be decisively better than AG.
I'm not sure whether Flints Infernape can push Mega Gardevoir so hard. It was easily defeated by Cynthia's Garchomp.

EDIT: Sorry, I quoted the images in wrong order.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
If we are talking about Champions holding back, any battle can be considered holding back in order to justify tier ranks in a show that doesn't provide the exact math. All I know is that Diantha was not in control of the battle against Ash-Greninja. That's the important part. And if she not in control of the situation, then chances are that Gardevoir wouldn't have lasted long against Ash-Greninja were it not for the power strain.

Power is always in a flux, especially when we have Alain dumping the very thing that gave him the mega power he needed for Charizard. We'll be going in circles on who is stronger or not. Ultimately it boils down to one important aspect: Whatever the writer decrees.

If a writer wants Alain's Mega Charizard X to lose against Ash's Torkoal of all things, they can and will do it. Battle tiers are hard to make without proper stats from Ash's Pokémon to make the determination of which Pokémon are his strongest and which are not.
To be fair you have a point. Even though by feats GPICSS is definitively Ash's best team, the writers could easily change that by telling us for example that Krookodile is actually stronger than Snorlax (they did acknowledge it with Ash's other Aces in the XYZ quizzes though my guess is that those were referring to Saga Aces (Charizard for OS, Sceptile for AG, Infernape for DP, Krookodile for BW, and Ash-Greninja for XY)). You're right that it's up to the writers but even they have some sense of scaling and consistency (it isn't a coincidence that only Sceptile and Pikachu were able to get a KO in the Tobias match).
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Greninja hadn't even entered AG form yet at the beginning of the match, and the water-veil form did catch her by surprise, so she opted to go ME to test the extent of his powers. If Diantha knew of AG from the start, and was in 100% battling-to-win mode, I have no doubt reg-Gardevoir would have definitely been enough.
Exactly. There was no reason to ME Gardevoir against normal Greninja because Gardevoir was significantly superior, so she didn't need "insurance". When Greninja transformed, she obviously saw AG as a sufficient threat (meaning Gardevoir was not significantly superior) for her to mega-evolve as insurance.

A fair interpretation would be Gardevoir ~ water-veil AG, and mastered AG >= base Gardevoir. At the ultimate lowball, Gardevoir > water-veil AG, but not by much, so mastered AG ~ base Gardevoir.

This is not the case however. From the events that occurred, it undeniably points towards Gardevoir ME because it couldn't keep up.

1. Greninja transforms and uses cut. Gardevoir uses shadow ball to block, but still gets pushed back by the explosion. Diantha said "had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance."

2. Greninja then uses cut again, and Diantha tells Gardevoir to dodge. Gardevoir is not fast enough and AG knocks Gardevoir down.

3. Greninja uses aerial ace, and Diantha mega-evolves her Gardevoir at the last second to block it.

How can you say I'm circle jerking XY when you are making all sorts of excuses about "insurance" despite the evidence being clear that Gardevoir was forced to mega-evolve to keep up with AG?


It could simply mean AG, this time around, managed to give MCX a better fight than previous rounds. My point is you can't assume it was nail-bitingly close either.
It might not be as close as Blaiziken vs Charizard or Meowth vs Pikachu, but MCX would not have taken another shuriken. This is exactly the same situation as Grovyle vs Slaking. Just because Grovyle only staggered slightly doesn't mean it was in a battling state.

Also, the state of MCX after the battle does not mean anything. charizard was dead after battling articuno, but as soon as the referee declared him the winner he was roaring in triumph.

Implying that I think AG >= base Champ ace lol.
Do you think base Gardevoir is significantly superior to AG?
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Ok, I recently saw the battle and immediately after that scene a huge explosion occurs. So it's clearly assumable that both of the Pokemon were hit by the huge explosion.
AG already went flying from the BB damage.

So just because it closed its eyes for a moment means that it was reeling?
And Malva making note of it, and ordering M-Doom to go on the offensive for a finisher.

Yes, so? Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Mega Gardevoir.
Lol? And in that snippet, you don't know how long those two were battling before the MEs, and you don't even see the ending either - M-Scizor could have gotten up ala Infernape.


MC-X had battle marks before battling Mega Houndoom and it's common sense that it would be exhausted after battling so many Megas.
Do I need to repeat myself?

Well the stumbling was shown from a distance, but it looked for a second that MC-X was about to fall down. I will agree that MC-X looked ok after the stumbling and roared, but even after defeating Mega Houndoom MC-X didn't look tired. It roared and hugged Alain very much normally.
It seems you got my point.

It was easily defeated by Cynthia's Garchomp.
Do I need to post another image?



How can you say I'm circle jerking XY when you are making all sorts of excuses about "insurance" despite the evidence being clear that Gardevoir was forced to mega-evolve to keep up with AG?
Don't really see how that's an excuse when literally the entire purpose of the battle was for Diantha to learn of AG and the extent of his abilities. If you want to award kudos points for momentarily catching her off-guard, go ahead. For all she could have known, AG might have been some Arceus-tier God, so ME'ing her Gardevoir does give her insurance. AG is powerful, of course, but using this to now say AG is somehow able to defeat Champion Mega aces is laughable - the frog didn't instantly mow down Abomasnow, and lost to MCX definitively.


It might not be as close as Blaiziken vs Charizard or Meowth vs Pikachu, but MCX would not have taken another shuriken. This is exactly the same situation as Grovyle vs Slaking. Just because Grovyle only staggered slightly doesn't mean it was in a battling state. Also, the state of MCX after the battle does not mean anything. charizard was dead after battling articuno, but as soon as the referee declared him the winner he was roaring in triumph.
Or you be a completely different type of situation, where MCX does have more in the tank ala Gliscor. Even as AG was falling, you already see in the distance MCX standing straight. I'm just repeating myself now.

Do you think base Gardevoir is significantly superior to AG?
There are many factors that play a role in a battle, including obvious type-matchups, form (dis)advantages, etc. The show has shown that well-trained Pokemon, whether from E4s, FBs, or high-level trainers, can go toe-to-toe against Champion Pokemon, even if they won't win. The show has also shown how tiny the margin of victory is against the E4s/Champions, and how quickly they can turn the tide and find an avenue to victory.

Do I think AG can pull a Legolas kill count against all of Ash's mid-tier Pokemon? Yeah, no. Do I think AG could do admirably against something like Gardevoir? Sure.

----------------

Anyway, this discussion has wildly veered off-topic from OP's Anime Canon Tier List. Take it to the Versus Thread.
 
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