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Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by _Dog, Jul 11, 2016.

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  1. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I do recall Torterra's frenzy plant flying straight at Garchomp, the difference was that it was not nearly as powerful. For some reason Sawyer also (either he hacks or just trained Sceptile really well) does not need to recharge his Frenzy plant.
     
  2. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Summing up my rankings in a tier list would yield

    - Z
    Champions

    - S+
    E4s, Tobias

    - S
    Ash (GPICSS)

    - S-
    Alain, Ash (best Kanto/OI), Paul (strongest team), Brandon, Palmer

    - A+
    Ash (with peak Hoenn, Sinnoh and Kalos teams)

    - A
    Sawyer, Tyson, Virgil, Harrison, most Frontier Brains

    - A-
    Gary, Katie

    - B+
    Ash (with best Johto and Unova teams), Astrid, Nando, Conway, Stephan, Tierno

    - B
    Trip, Barry, Cameron , Morrison

    - B-
    Trevor, Bianca, Jackson, Clark

    - C+
    Titus, Macy, Dominick

    - C
    Salvador, Gilbert

    There's always going to be a degree of subjectivity, but this is the most reasonable list I could think of. Let me know which parts any of you disagree with and I'll give my reasoning for those parts.
     
  3. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Right the trajectory of Torterra's FP was linear. Meaning you just had to step out of the way to evade it. With Sawyer's MS however, even if 1 dodged, the branches would keep following the target until they made contact or were destroyed.
     
  4. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    No Ash-Grenina was not on par with Diantha's MG otherwise Ash would have won against Alain a long time ago,Paul may have lost to Cynthia's Garchomp but it managed to get a few hits on it before being knocked out,it used Giga Drain which brought it to one knee then used Frenzy Plant,I could not see Greninja doing the same in its regular state.
     
  5. MattySadler

    MattySadler Well-Known Member

    Mostly subjective, and just a bit of fun.

    If years and years of watching Dragon Ball has taught me anything, its that people enjoy seeing characters listed in order of strength. Personally, I find it all rather restrictive, story-wise.
     
  6. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    Your whole post assumes Tyson, from the time the Hoenn League concluded to when Ash beat the Battle Frontier, makes zero progress whatsoever and his team remains static. You want to compare Ash's team from a later time period to that of a guy who beat him 6-5? Well of course Ash's would seem stronger.
    A big problem I find with the majority of these comparing Ash's current teams to those of his past rivals is they pre-suppose only Ash has improved. If you'd want to compare Ash's post-Battle Frontier Team to Tyson it'd only be fair to either a) compare it to Tyson's own team post-Battle Frontier but seeing as we have no way of knowing that b.) assume sensible trainer growth for Tyson's team and then make a comparison to that.
    Ash's Hoenn League Team wasn't his peak AG one? Neither is Tyson's if we go that route.
     
  7. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    When I'm comparing non-Ash people it's how strong they were at the time. Sure most of the trainers Ash has battled could have improved (or gotten rusty), but trying to estimate how strong they'd currently be becomes far too subjective. If you'd like me to be less ambiguous then my claim is that Ash's AG team post BF and beyond would demolish Tyson's team as of HL. Also Sawyer's team as of KL would beat Tyson's team as of HL. I'll say it again. When I'm saying how strong a non-Ash trainer is I'm saying it for the point they were last shown and also taking any information stated regarding their future into account. Paul stated that he was going to go challenge Brandon meaning we can conclude that eventually atleast Paul's best team could defeat Brandon. Alain also states he's going to find a new key and mega stone so we can assume that Alain will eventually regain access to ME. With Tyson we have no real idea about his future. Maybe he went to another region. Maybe he got recked by the E4 so badly that he retired. There's no way to know since we didn't hear him talking about his future goals. I'll be more explicit from next time if that's your issue.

    EDIT: Also from the final XYZ episode it seems as though Sawyer is getting training from Steven meaning he's likely to improve tremendously in the future
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  8. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    The HL Hoenn team is not "significantly weaker" than the peak Hoenn team. The only difference was Grovyle -> Sceptile, and that's not some astronomical leap as you are making it out to be.


    Lol, Tyson's raid boss Metagross + Puss in Boots would be enough to deal with Mega Sceptile. It took a combination of Swellow + Grovyle + Pikachu to bring down Metagross, and the only reason Ash held out that long against Tyson was because of Glalie neutralizing his Sceptile, Swellow with an MVP performance, and Pikachu going off against Metagross + Puss in Boots.

    Shota seemed strategic in that battle because he literally built a team to hard counter Ash's and still lost. Ash could have won easier if he bothered to switch his Pokemon.

    Tyson won a more rigorous league conference by pulling off five consecutive full battle victories.
     
  9. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    It actually is an astronomical leap and I can give you evidence. Against Greta Grovyle was easily beaten and Snorlax pretty much did most of the work. Against Spencer; however, Sceptile defeated 2 Pokémon (including Spencer's ace) all on its own. As a testament to Spencer's strength, it took Heracross+Swellow (yes Heracross contributed since Scott noted that Venasaur was already panting/weakened by the time Swellow came in) to beat Venasaur. Swelow was then so exhausted that it easily got revenge killed by Claydol without dealing any damage. Scott also confirms that Claydol is stronger than Venasaur.

    Swellow was severely weakened from battling 2 Pokémon (1 of which assaulted it with a plethora of rollouts). Grovyle, as shown, was leagues below Sceptile (upper tier 3 at best). Pikachu beat Matagross without taking any damage. Pikachu clearly progressed throughout the BF (vs Lucy, vs Anabel 2 and vs Brandon 3). Pikachu in SL and KL would even be above that. Corphish's shinning feats come in BF. Without them there's nothing to place Corphish over tier 4. Frankly, Alain's Metagross was more impressive for severely wounding KL Pikachu.

    EDIT: For reference, I'd consider Ash with the HL Hoenn team to be an A- with respect to the list I made on page 1.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  10. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    A GYM Leader tier list (not including Kanto/OI)

    -Top Tier
    Clair, Juan, Volkner, Drayden, Wulfric

    -High Tier+
    Roxie, Olympia, Pryce, Byron

    -High Tier
    Norman, Wionna, Falkner, Candice, Brycen, Valerie, Fantina

    -High Tier-
    Korrina, Jasmine

    -Mid Tier+
    Morty, Chuck, Brawly, Roark, Skyla, Clay, Ramos, Clemont

    -Mid Tier
    Lenora, Elesa, Burgh, Whitney, Gardenia, Viola, Grant, Roxanne

    -Mid Tier-
    Striaton brothers, Bugsy, Wake, Maylene, Tate&Liza, Flannery, Watson

    There is no order in a given tier for this list. This list is far more subjective than my previous 1 as several of the above gym leaders have a battling range.
     
  11. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    Lol metagross beat Swellow who was basically dead and barely dented Pikachu. In reality he only took out a low tier 2 grovyle. Puss in boots was Tyson's ace and it wasn't even as good as HL Pikachu, seeing as it barely beat Pikachu despite having a strategy which rendered all of Pikachu's electric attack's useless.

    None of Tyson's Pokemon would stand a chance against that Frenzy plant. Ash-Greninja was the perfect counter to it.

    If you think HL Ash was on the same level as BF Ash, you're wrong.
    Grovyle went from low tier 2 to tier 1
    Pikachu was at it's AG peak when he beat Regice
    Torkoal went from tier 4 loser to almost bringing down Registeel

    You are supposed to strategise against your opponent. Don't tell me Tyson is more strategic because he didn't strategise against Ash. Sawyer showed way more tactical skill than Tyson, and his Pokemon are much stronger as well.

    More rigorous? HL Ash was pretty much the second best trainer in the league seeing as Tyson barely beat him, and Ash's hoenn pokemon weren't even at their full potential. I would be surprised if Tyson made it into the semis in Kalos
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  12. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Can Sawyer's Mega Sceptile take out all of Brandon's Regis in a 1 on 3?They were much stronger than they were when first introduced in BF.
     
  13. RedJirachi

    RedJirachi Veteran member

    S++: Mewtwo(hey, he's technically a trainer :D)
     
  14. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Definitely not. I think each of Ash's and Paul's tier 1s would match well against a Regi 1 vs 1. Ash-Greninja has a 50/50 chance of beating 2. Mega Charizard X can take 2, but 3 would be highly unlikely. Regirock was already trained up well before DP since Brandon had it back when Paul was starting out and swept Regi so brutally with it that it traumatized Paul for life and drove him to pursue strength. Registeel and Regice were newly caught, but I'd say they were only moderately stronger in DP. You yourself said that Paul got thrashed because he wasn't thinking properly and the team he had was designed to battle Candice and not Brandon. Sawyer's MS could take 1 Regi but no more.
     
  15. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    No they weren't, his entire team was on par with HL Ash's team who are incapable of dealing with any of the Frontier Brains at that point in time. That's in contrast to Conway whose Shuckle and Dusknoir gave Donphan a run for its money who did manage to defeat a Frontier Brain's pokemon and grew even stronger since then. Tyson isn't even on the likes of Sawyer who was relatively on par with Kalos Ash's pokemon where his lower tier pokemon could defeat Mega Absol. Even Alain only used Charizard and Metagross to sweep Remo's entire team (save for Garchoo) which puts it in perspective to how strong Sawyer's pokemon are. Compare that to Tyson's best pokemon who struggled against a fodder Persian and there's literally no conceivable way that Tyson trumps Sawyer in power.

    Put this into perspective, Aegislash mauled through an entire forest, Clawitzer could zip through said forest with Aqua Jet while Sceptile w/o a Mega Evolution could generate gargantuan frenzy plants that would envelop said forest at his own leisure. That said, Conway's more comparable to a trainer that cleverly constructs a pokemon's entire arsenal and enters battle with a plethora of pre-planned strategies. This has no bearing on Conway's percipience as a trainer and doesn't compare to the amount of versatility that Sawyer, Paul, and Ash have exhibited in the midst of battle. Conway's smart, but he lacked the battle adaptability that Ash demonstrated during their battle which ultimately screwed him over. He's not as smart of a trainer as Sawyer is, but he's certainly smarter than Tyson who wasn't shown to be a strategist.

    Which doesn't matter because Ash's Pikachu proved to be stronger than Alain's 2nd strongest pokemon while Ash-Greninja was on par with Mega Charizard X, so that argument doesn't really work at all. If Charizard is on par with Paul's Torterra, then Mega Charizard X and Ash-Greninja would be better than Torterra by default and of course, Alain's pokemon ~ Ash's pokemon which logically makes Ash > Paul. Paul might be better than Alain in strategy, but so is Ash, so if you're still going to place Alain above Paul, then the same should apply to Ash by default.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  16. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    Greta/Hariyama were prepared for a speedster and baited Ash/Grovyle. It was hardly a bad loss. Snorlax, arguably Ash's best tank, forced Hariyama to be the aggressor and absorbed all of its blows.

    That doesn't mean Grovyle was significantly weaker than Sceptile. If it was Sceptile instead of Grovyle facing off against Tyson's Metagross, maybe Sceptile would have drawn against it, or be left revenge-killed by Puss in Boots. Either way, it would have still been a narrow final battle, perhaps Pikachu edges out the victory this time.


    The critical reason for Ash being able to take down Metagross was because Swellow cracked Metagross' armor, allowing Grovyle to weaken it, and Pikachu to finish it off. Pikachu had to obviously waste some of his stamina against Metagross (dodging Psychic, holding onto dear life, and attacking). Pikachu's power levels are constantly fluctuating, from literally battle to battle. Pikachu's good fight against Puss in Boots was a great feat, and the only reason the match ended up being so close.

    I'll say this again:



    Metagross only lost because Swellow managed to crack its armor before falling. Taking out Grovyle, and exhausting Pikachu (who could rely on smaller form advantage to KO it) in the process says enough.

    Lol, because his Pokemon are incapable of dodging? Tyson's Sceptile, Puss in Boots (with Double Team), hell Donphan Sandstorming the entire field, etc.

    The difference is not astronomical as you are making it out to be. HL Ash would have been a challenge against Shota too.

    That's the illusion of Shota constructing an entire playbook just against Ash, and still not being enough. A lot of the best trainers, including Tyson or Alain and even the E4, don't display tons of 'strategy' either.

    Which Pokemon? Slurpuff? Salamence? Give me a break.

    Yes, the Hoenn League was more rigorous. KL only had two full battles, whereas HL had five. Ash was facing trainers like Katie and Morrison (if he tried the entire match, he could have won) in the rounds of 32 and 16.

    Quit overrating Kalos.
     
  17. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    I'm sorry how is going from not being able to beat (or even significantly damage) 1 Frontier Brain Pokémon to being able to solo to 2 Frontier Brain Pokémon not a significant increase? Regardless of Greta's strategy, It's clear that Spencer certainly wasn't less powerful/skilled (took 2 tier 2s to take out Spencer's other Pokemon). So your point doesn't dimish the validity of Sceptile's power increase. Tell me this. How would Swellow (that was stronger than Grovyle at the time) fair against Metagross at full health. At worst, Metagross narrowly survives the battle. Tyson's Metagross is at best tier 2. Sceptile could beat Metagross and then either beat another 1 of Tyson's regular Pokémon or moderately damage Meowth. Like it or not a Pikachu with legend slaying feats and the ability to make an E4 lvl Pokémon kneel (after being heavily injured and fatigued from battling 2 psuedos no less) is above the Pikachu against Tyson. You can't use the fluctuating power excuse whenever it suits your convenience. Barring Swellow and Glalie, all of Ash's Hoenn Pokémon improved (especially Sceptile and Pikachu improved). That much should be clear. I frankly can't fathom how Tyson does any better than 4-6 against the peak Hoenn team (3-6 if we optimize Ash's decisions like you were suggesting for the Sawyer case). I will give you that Tyson vs Sawyer would be a close battle (they're both A rank in my list), but Sawyer would edge it out thanks to MS.

    Speaking of fluctuating, something that fluctuates even more than Pikachu's power lvl is how much of a factor stamina plays from battle to battle. Never once in the HL have we heard Ash or anyone else state how the league was "grueling" on their Pokémon or how it was affecting their Pokmon's stamina, when previously they would make it explicit (as with the case of Harrison's Blaziken). Maybe Hoenn just has better health care than Johto. I'm frankly also of the opinion that the quantity of battles could potentially affect stamina, but can you please stop overplaying the feat. Also, no Morrison is not a good trainer. That battle between him and Ash (barring Glalie vs Metang) was the biggest load of asinine garbage 2nd only to Ash vs Cameron.

    EDIT: Yeah no Corphish got 1 shotted by Hariyama. That's hardly what I'd call tiring it out. Had that been the Corphish after the BF, Corphish would have won albeit in a close fight.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  18. Shadao

    Shadao Champion GETTO DA ZE!

    Considering that Diantha was completely shocked by just how powerful Ash-Greninja really is and began to vocally command while Mega Gardevoir is put on the defensive, that statement rings hallow. Also consider the fact that Diantha never fought Alain and we have not factor in type-advantages and other different variables (such as speed and power) for each different Pokémon in hypothetical but never happened scenario.

    With that said, Ash and Alain are on par with one another in terms of power and skill. Their League battle is proof of that. Exactly the same KOs on both sides prior to the showdown between Ash-Greninja vs Mega Charizard X. And while Alain is seemingly stronger by defeating Ash-Greninja, he's not really as strong as people claim. Notably, he panics the moment it became Ash-Greninja is about its giant Shuriken upon Mega Charizard X, and this moment of weakness is what makes him ineffective when it became clear that Lysandre was using him the whole time. He's not exactly good at handling situations where the battle is unexpectedly turned against him. And thus, he's only fortunate he barely avoid a loss by a sliver. And suffice to say, that sliver will be closed the next time they battle. Something that Alain blatantly admits to himself privately.
     
  19. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Yeah, it's evident that evolving yielded a substantial improvement in combat ability for Sceptile. Evolution alone grants a pokemon an immense boost and you'd think that emphasizing a pokemon's power post-evolution (Krokorok, Rogenrola, Tranquill, Tepig, Noibat, Cligar, and Sligoo) would make that rather clear for the reader. How would Sceptile be an exception to this rule?
     
  20. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    OK, let's say Metagross didn't fight Swellow. He would have beaten grovyle (tier 2) and did significant damage to HL Pikachu (high tier 2) before going down. That makes metagross high tier 2/low tier 1 at best.

    Puss in boots is high tier 2, seeing as it barely defeated a Pikachu whose electrical attacks were essentially nullified.

    Just because Tyson's speedsters can dodge a few flamethrowers doesn't mean it can dodge tree-sized roots erupting from the ground and following you like a guided missile.

    You saw what happened to KL Pikachu. He didn't stand a chance.

    Double team just got annihilated, only AG (who is miles faster than Tyson's Sceptile and Meowth) could avoid getting crushed for a few moments. Even so Sawyer's FP would eventually catch up and AG had to go frenzy mode to destroy the vines. Wtf would sandstorm do lol.


    I gave you my reasons for this. Torkoal went from one of Ash's worst ever to almost beating Registeel, Grovyle became a solid tier 1, Pikachu as well.

    The battle format is irrelevant to the level of trainers at the league. Trainers in KL had Pokemon which were on par with E4 aces. HL Ash wouldn't stand a chance in Kalos. Although this is was what I disliked most about KL, the reason why they didn't show battles against Katie/Morrison level trainers was because Ash would have curbstomped them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
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