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Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by _Dog, Jul 11, 2016.

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  1. GLTSRY

    GLTSRY Unova Ace Oshawott

    Ok, so even if you say that Diantha was simply testing Ash-Greninja's strength, she did so by using the full defensive capabilities of Guardevoir, and it still wasn't enough, just as her Shadow Ball wasn't enough against the perfect WS. For Ash himself that battle was a test, too, as he didn't even know that the water veil form wasn't the real form. Ash-Greninja became significantly stronger since then, and there is no real limit to their power, as this form is basically a manifestation of his "Never give up" mentality - the stronger the opponent, the stronger it gets, too.
     
  2. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Updated Ash's Pokémon tier list:

    -High Tier 0
    (Ash-)Greninja

    -Low Tier 0
    Peakachu, Charizard

    -High Tier 1
    (Blaze) Infernape

    -Mid Tier 1
    Sceptile

    -Low Tier 1
    Snorlax, Krookodile

    -High Tier 2
    Swellow, Bulbasaur, Heracross

    -Mid Tier 2
    Glalie, Kingler

    -Low Tier 2
    Gliscor, Hawlucha, Squirtle, Gible

    -High Tier 3
    Pignite, Talonflame, Torkoal, Torterra, Goodra

    -Mid Tier 3
    Corphish, Buizel, Quilava, Staraptor

    -Low Tier 3
    Bayleef, Noctowl, Noivern, Tauros

    -High Tier 4
    Donphan

    -Mid Tier 4
    Palpitoad

    -Low Tier 4
    Snivy, Muk

    -High Tier 5
    Boldore

    -Mid Tier 5
    Unfezzant

    -Low Tier 5
    Scraggy, Totodile, Oshawatt
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  3. Alloutℯ

    Alloutℯ Banned

    Which is why tiers will never work in the anime since stats are far too inconsistent to base power levels on.
     
  4. Mrs. Oreo

    Mrs. Oreo Banned

    Yea in terms of how Champions have been portrayed in the anime, I think Diantha was one of the least proficient ones when it came to battling compared to Lance and Cynthia at least. In particular, I didn't like how Ash-Greninja managed to overpower her mega Gardevoir. :[
     
  5. martianmister

    martianmister Well-Known Member

    She seems panicked.
     
  6. ZilverLox

    ZilverLox Banned

    I thought that she and Mega Gardevoir gave the battle all they had. So Ash-Greninja almost winning shows Diantha's weakness as a champion.
     
  7. Wednesdayz

    Wednesdayz Banned

    She wasn't weak per se, just momentarily unprepared and caught off-guard. I rank Diantha below Lance and Cynthia among the show's Champions, though. Maybe even below Steven as well.
     
  8. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    She was portrayed as Steven's equal in the TF arc, so she was incredibly powerful. Her Mega Gardevoir one-shotted Wikstrom's Mega Scizor.
    [IMG300]http://imgur.com/3Q8Fcxw.gif[/IMG300]
    Ash-Greninja overpowering it in a head-on collision and dealing serious damage to it just shows how powerful Ash and Greninja are when they fully in sync.

    Steven's Mega Metagross=Diantha's Mega Gardevoir>Cynthia's Garchomp.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  9. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Updated Trainer Pokémon Tier List for T-0+ Pokémon:

    - High Transcendant Tier
    Upper Champion Mega Aces, Lysandre’s Mega Red Gyarados

    - Mid Transcendant Tier
    Lower Champion Mega Aces

    - Low Transcendant Tier
    hypothetical 10MVT Peakachu, Alain’s Mega Charizard X, Upper E4 Mega Aces

    - High God Tier
    Mid E4 Mega Aces, hypothetical Ash’s Mega Charizard

    - Mid God Tier
    Ash-Greninja, Upper Champion Aces, Lower E4 Mega Aces, Lysandre’s Red Gyarados, hypothetical Ash’s Mega Sceptile

    - Low God Tier
    Lower Champion Aces

    - High Tier-0
    Alain’s Charizard, Upper E4 Aces, Peakachu, Sawyer’s Mega Sceptile

    - Mid Tier-0
    Mid E4 Aces, Ash’s Charizard, Brandon’s Regirock, Tobias’s Darkrai and Latios, Remo’s Mega Garchomp, Wulfric’s Mega Abamsnow, Paul’s Torterra (as of SL)

    - Low Tier-0
    Lower E4 Aces, Volkner’s Raichu, Drayden’s Druddigon, Ash’s Sceptile, Ash’s (Blaze) Infernape, Alain’s Metagross
     
  10. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    I agree with most of your list except for Paul's Torterra, Remo Mega Garchomp, and Drayden's Druddigon.
    I would put Paul's Torterra one sub-tier lower(if Torterra was that strong Paul definitely would've used it in the Sinnoh League battle to ensure a victory I think), and both Remo's Mega Garchomp+Alain Metagross in the borderline Low Tier 0/High Tier 1 spectrum. Remo's Mega Garchomp is powerful but I don't think that much to put it on the same footing as Ash's Charizard/Tobias's Legendaries.

    And what did Drayden's Druddigon do to be ranked that high? It did defeat Iris's Dragonite pretty soundly in the end, but I don't see why a Pokemon like Ash's Snorlax can't pull off the same thing.
     
  11. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Obviously Torterra was Paul’s strongest and would’ve helped him beat Ash regardless of where it tiers (there are a few possibilities for why Paul didn’t use it). I’ve been clear about Torterra ~ Peakachu though at the very least it should be better than Scep or In, so upper end low t-0 would be a low ball.

    Let’s say ME Act 1 MC-X ~ Siebold’s Base Blastoise, so about Mid t-0. Mega Garchomp gave MC-X a decent fight in Act 1, so that would put it at about Mid t-1. We know that Remo went through rigorous training from then till the KL, so KL M-Garchomp should be significantly stronger and this is supported by Alain’s Base Charizard being unable to dodge Draco Meteor indicating that Mega Garchomp would at least be a threat to Base Charizard, so I guess it could either be low or mid t-0. Maybe mid t-0 might have been due to my bias towards the species though I do think it would definitively be in low t-0 rather than borderline t-0 a.k.a the way MC-X owns Mega Garchomp is an upper bound for how it’d fare with the likes of Sceptile and Infernape.

    Dragonite was about borderline t-1, so to have beaten it so convincingly indicates that Druddigon must have been significantly stronger (though admittably Dragonite didn’t battle at full battle viability). Now that I think about it I doubt Druddigon is beyond gym standards like Wulfric’s M-Abamasnow and Volkner’s Raichu and in conjunction with Dragonite not battling optimally I guess high t-1 also works though no I don’t think Snorlax would beat Dragonite that convincingly (though sure it would win definitively).
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  12. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    Here is where the question arises. If Torterra is that strong, then it'd have guaranteed Paul a sure victory in the Sinnoh League. If that's so, then I see no reason why Paul shouldn't use it in the League Battle. That gives us a indication Paul feared that Ash might managed to counter Torterra this time and in the process defeat it, which could be the plausible reason for why Paul didn't use it in their rivalry climax battle. So Torterra has to be within the reach of where Ash could concievably beat it with his SL team, a.k.a., not so much better than Electivire(at least Motordrive Electivire), which was Paul's ace in the Sinnoh League.

    Also, there's nothing to claim that Torterra has to be better than Ash's Sceptile/Blaze Infernape. Torterra is Paul's strongest Pokemon. Even being on par with Ash's Sceptile/Blaze Infernape makes Torterra decisively stronger than Electivire/Motordrive Electivire, so what's the big deal?

    Peakachu = Alain's Base Charizard. Alain's Metagross posed a threat to Peakachu as well. So Mega Garchomp could pose a similar threat to Base Charizard, that's about it. After all, getting hit by 1 Draco Meteor doesn't say that much to put it on par with Ash's Charizard/Tobias's Legendaries. Posing a threat has a very wide margin after all. So being on par with Alain's Metagross is more than enough respect for Remo's Mega Garchomp. That also makes it significantly stronger than it was in ME-1.

    Afterall, MCX at least isn't eviscarating Ash's Charizard/Tobias's legendaries like Remo's Mega Garchomp(that sounds pretty hilarious).

    Borderline Tier 1 is pushing it I'd say(did Dragonite do anything to be claimed better than say, Swellow?). Even so, if Electivire can deal with Barry's Empoleon in that manner, I can't see why Snorlax can't beat Dragonite that convincingly like Drayden's Druddigon.
     
  13. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    This is bad reasoning. Pretty sure given how close the battle was if Torterra replaces say Gastrodon then Paul would have definitively won regardless of what supposed counter Ash might have. Other reasons why Torterra wasn’t used could include: Paul was conserving it for Darkrai or Torterra had a grueling battle in an earlier round (say agaisnt a Heatran), but regardless Torterra not being used doesn’t place any upper cap on its strength.
    I don’t buy Infernape/Sceptile being as good as a Pokémon that’s been trained for 4 regions by a trainer on par with Ash. Also we know that Torterra was working on Frenzy Plant control in DP 100 and while it didn’t have that mastered by the LA battle, it did have Stone Edge control mastered indicating that it certainly will eventually master FP control. If by the SL Torterra had Mega Sceptile lvls of FP control then it certainly would gain a signfcant boost in battle viability and be more than worthy of being definitively in t-0. This is all independent of my narrative assumption that Torterra ~ Peakachu.


    Yeah it’s a wide margin though rigorous training for so long presumably would offer a signfcant boost (at least 2 sub tiers), so it should be definitively in t-0 based on where it should have been in Act 1 in order to give that kind of fight to MC-X.

    Maybe not eviscerate though it would beat those opponents low diff.

    Do you really think BW Charizard would acknowledge a t-2’s strength? Do you really think Swellow or Empoleon could have 3 even move clashes and tank a supereffective move from BW Charizard? M’okay. Also I don’t think a t-2 could have beaten Dawn’s Mamoswine upper low/lower mid diff especially when not battling optimally. In addition while Krookodile did beat Dragonite decisively, it should be noted that Dragonite’s tantrum gave Krookodile a free Crunch in addition to Dragonite again not battling optimally (for example it didn’t time Dragon Rush properly at the end), so I do think that Dragonite would at least have a much closer match with Krookodile had it been battling properly (and as you know Krookodile by the narrative is at least Ash’s #7). These reasons convince me that Dragonite does deserve to be in t-1 though admittedly it needn’t be any higher than the t-1 entry point. Yeah I don’t see Snorlax beating it like how Druddigon did.
     
  14. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    It was the long awaited final rivalry climax battle of them. In such an important battle, why would not Paul consider using it if it's that much powerful to guarantee a victory? Only plausible reason seems to be that Paul feared that Ash counter it and conceivably beat it. He probably thought that Electivire would be a better ace for him in the Sinnoh League, countering Ash's team better than Torterra(if that's so Electivire at least with Motordrive has to be somewhat close to Torterra's strength). If Torterra was out of Ash's reach of defeating it, decisively stronger than any Pokemon Ash had at that point, then I see no reason why Paul preferred Electivire over Torterra as his ace in the Sinnoh League.

    Regarding saving Torterra for Darkrai or having an earlier gruelling battle, if it was so, it'd have definitely been mentioned period. These are League related issues, I see no reason why the writers shouldn't mention them if it was so. Harrison's Blaziken failed to recover from its battle against Charizard, and as a result Harrison didn't use it against Jon Dickson, that was mentioned. So why not for Torterra if it was so?

    More experience =/= more powerful. By that logic, Ash's Bulbasaur should be stronger than Ash's Sceptile, Ash's Squirtle should be stronger than Ash's Greninja(Base).

    It could give Torterra a boost in battle viability, but that is vague and based on mainly assumption after all(whether Torterra mastered it or not). Even if it did master it, that doesn't automatically elevate Torterra to Ash's Charizard/Tobias's Legendaries/Tobias Peakachu level.

    Being worthy of Tier 0? Yes. On par with League sweepers like Tobias's Legendaries? That sounds a real stretch.

    The improvement claim is also quite vague though(that would depend upon what calibre of opponents Remo faced, how good a trainer he is skill-wise). And we don't have enough information to make that claim. Being on par with Alain's Metagross(Borderline Low Tier 0/High Tier 1) also means that it is significantly stronger than it was in ME-1.


    Low diff yeah but they should at least be able to inflict some notable damage on MCX.


    Fair regarding the Dragon Tail tanking point but still I don't see why Ash's Snorlax can't beat it like Drayden's Druddigon even if it's a borderline Tier 1. Druddigon did take some damage after all.

    Electivire beat Empoleon without taking any damage. If Empoleon was slightly stronger(like Iris's Dragonite), Electivire/Ash's Snorlax would've at best taken some damage at best(like Drayden's Druddigon).
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  15. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Look you using Torterra not being used as a way of asserting some kind of cap is a bad argument period. I ask you to give me a single conceivable counter Ash could come up with that would make Torterra not that much more viable than flipping Gastrodon. The meta reason why Paul didn’t use Torterra was because Ash would have flat-out lost and the narrative couldn’t have that.

    Wonderful and does Paul ever say that he didn’t use Torterra because Torterra wouldn’t be viable? No? You do see your double standards here right. It’s unclear why Paul didn’t use Torterra, but regardless using that to cap Torterra is absurdly fallacious.

    Torterra’s viability is vague since the only time it fainted was agaisnt Cynthia’s Garchomp after which it got unquantifiably stronger. From the beginning I’ve held the narrative assumption that Torterra ~ Peakachu (the starters of trainers on par are on par) and I’ve been upfront about it.

    Honestly Act 1 MGarch is possibly borderline high t-1 (MC-X was both bruised and panting) and I found MC-X vs M-Garchomp to be like F-Infernape vs A-Infernape and Latios vs Swellow. Yeah I’m settling on upper end low t-0 or lower end mid t-0.


    Most likely somewhere between 10-20% but it could possibly be low as 0% (there are cases where it has happened with this and even less disparity) or as high as 30%+.


    Yeah and Snorlax isn’t winning any less than lower high diff (25-30% health remaining).
    Please don’t use that battle like it’s the norm. On average a 2 sub tier difference would result in a competitive match and not every battle in the anime is going to go the aggregate route. Moreover in that case it was more to do with Barry’s incompetency as a trainer (look at the most skilled trainer threads) rather than Empoleon being inherently outclassed by such a degree.
     
  16. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    Aggron and Gastrodon were used to uncover Ash's strategy in the League(they were used to find out what Pokemon Ash uses and as a process uncover Ash's strategy). If Paul used Torterra, Ash could've possibly used a counter against it (maybe this is what Paul thought) and after all, Paul's plan of uncovering Ash's strategy at the League would fail. Ash had plently of Pokemon on hand in the SL(including reserves), so Paul had no idea about what Pokemon Ash would use. He had to be sure of that first.

    Plus, claiming that Ash would've flat out lost if Paul used Torterra is something which blatantly contradicts the narrative. That means that Ash hasn't surpassed Paul actually, he only managed to beat Paul because he didn't use his best Pokemon Torterra in the League. If Paul used Torterra, Ash stood no chance, so Ash didn't actually surpass Paul. How does this make sense from the narrative perspective where the narrative of the final rivalry climax battle was that, Ash finally managed to surpass Paul after a gruelling rivalry.


    Torterra, at the very least, has to be within the reach that Ash could've beaten it in the Sinnoh League. Otherwise, from the narrative perspective, which is that 'Ash finally surpassed Paul after a long and gruelling rivalry' is blatantly contradicted if Torterra is out of Ash's reach during the SL. So that puts a cap on Torterra.

    But Torterra isn't on par with Peakachu's progression if you look at it. None of Brandon's Regis are fainting after a single hit from Cynthia's Garchomp. Actually after watching the episode 'Pillars of Friendship' recently, I'm pretty sure that Brandon's peer Regis(Registeel and Regice) are at the very least, par with the Articuno commanded by Noland.

    And Regice Pikachu is clearly better than Regice(it was a tough fight but Pikachu won definitively). So Regice Pikachu clearly rivals the Tier 0's and is clearly better than Cynthia Torterra.

    Remebering Pikachu vs Aegislash and Metagross, I won't go as far as saying that ME-1 MCX is borderline High Tier 1. Aegislash and Metagross argueably pushed Pikachu harder than Mega Garchomp did to MCX.



    XY&Z13 imperfect A-G, who probably is a bit below Ash's Charizard/Tobias's Legendaries, landed a solid hit on MCX, so they should be able to do so too.



    One thing that is to be remembered that Dragonite didn't use its full capabilities in that battle, didn't use its flying advantage.

    Regarding Electivire vs Empoleon, could it just be that Electivire is just more powerful than we think? Otherwise it's quite difficult to explain that TBH.
     
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