1. We have moved to a new forum system. All your posts and data should have transferred over. Welcome, to the new Serebii Forums. Details here
    Dismiss Notice
  2. We have received legal notice about the sharing of certain images for Pokémon Sword & Shield. Due to this, we have a new rule. If you post said images, you will be removed from the forums until 15:00 UTC on November 14th 2019. We have also killed the leak discussion threads for the time being. Thank you for your patience during this. If you have any queries, use the contact form
  3. Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
    Dismiss Notice
  4. If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders
    Dismiss Notice

Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by _Dog, Jul 11, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Or simply put, Alain is just that strong.

    Perhaps Diantha is the weakest of the champions, but it does not trivialize Ash-Greninja's ability to pressure Diantha to the extent where Gardevoir was forced to intercept his attacks as opposed to elegantly dancing around his attacks as it did against Greninja previously. If that isn't enough, Greninja razed Gardevoir's reflect and pushed her back as a result and then continued to bulldoze through her Shadow Ball. How is that a sign of inferiority?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  2. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    You're denying the fact that majority of the power comes from Sawyer's Sceptile,there's no other pokemon on his team that's taking out Metagross,Meowth,or Hariyama 1 on 1.



    You're overdoing it with the "on par stuff",AG is not on the same level playing field as MCX but of course you're gonna disagree with me and turn this into another "AG-MCX Champion Level" argument.

    How does Alain's pokemon and Ash's pokemon = Ash>Paul? I put Alain over Paul with keystone because its power outweighs Paul's power/skill,same applies to the E4/Champions,they don't demonstrate strategy and tactics like a Paul or a Conway does but it's the power of their Aces that outweighs all of that in the long run.
     
  3. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    That literally applied to Paul as well. This is not an argument and is an insufficient rebuttal because you failed to address some of the key points I presented. There is no way that Tyson beats Sawyer in power when Sawyer's pokemon outside of Sceptile are on the level where they could fight Astrid's Mega Absol who could generate shockwaves that could be felt at least a few hundred meters away and battled Mega Charized X who was cleaving through forests effortlessly.

    It's certainly not coincidental that the writers gave us a glimpse of Mega Absol's defeat at the hands of Ash's Hawlucha to cement the sheer power of his team. Ash's Kalos team is just that strong and by default, Sawyer's team is as well.

    Ash-Greninja literally stalemated Mega Charizard X and was literally one of the only pokemon shown that countered his Blast Burn twice. I'm not sure what you'd call that, but I'd consider that an illustration of paralleled strength.

    Ash's pokemon was equivalent to the rest of Alain's pokemon, so if Mega Charizard X exceeded Paul's ability as a trainer through sheer power, than Ash does as well. Seriously, how the heck is Ash two tiers below someone he practically stalemated? That absolutely contradicts Alain's admission of wanting to battle Ash because he acknowledged him as his equal.

    How the heck is DP Ash still 1 tier below Paul even though the resolution of their rivalry led us to believe that Paul acknowledged Ash as his equal?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  4. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Alain's Charizard grew significantly stronger since then.

    At the beginning, he considered Astrid to be a powerful opponent. Towards the end, he'd outstrip Hawlucha who overpowered Mega Absol. The gains Alain made were immense and absolutely monstrous.

    It's possible that Diantha held back, but being forced to intercept his attacks instead of dodging as she did earlier to test his power denotes Greninja as a powerful opponent for her, perhaps even rivaling its power. I ultimately agree that Ash-Greninja is at least E4 Mega Ace level and I'm fine with that opinion since it gives Greninja the respect that it does deserve.
     
  5. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Yeah that was prior to ME act 4. Alain is heavily implied to have undergone intense training between ME act 3 and 4 and being able to defeat an E4 Mega (when he couldn't in ME act 1) was meant to show progression. Alain's MC X is somewhere between E4 Mega and Champion Mega. Ash-Greninja is somewhere between E4 Mega and base ace Champion Pokémon. I'm not entirely sure if it's equal to an E4 Mega, but it's atleast on par.
     
  6. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    1.Sinnoh
    Infernape-9.5/10
    Buizel-7.5/10
    Staraptor-7.5/10
    Torterra-7.5/10
    Pikachu-8/10
    Gliscor-7.5/10

    2.Kalos
    Talonflame-7/10
    Greninja-10/10
    Pikachu-8/10
    Noivern-6.5/10
    Goodra-7.5/10
    Hawlucha-7/10

    All these absurd theories about MCX being "Champion Level" and you turn around and say they're equal because of their bout at the KL?So that would mean that MCX was on the verge of fainting in their bout at the KL.

    Ash can't be put on that pedistal just because of Greninja's special transformation.

    Alain put his Charizard through training a lot more than any of Ash's Aces from all the regions he's been to,Alain's Charizard in its regular form is around Ash's Charizard/Paul's Torterra,Ash's Greninja in its regular form isn't in the same class.

    Paul was more so on good terms with Ash at the end of DP,but doesn't mean he surpassed him.

    If Paul was in Ash's shoes he would have rotated in GCSSIP against Alain,better yet he would have done the same in any of the previous leagues Ash lost in.(Hoenn,Unova)
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  7. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Curiously does anyone have any issues with or questions about aspects of the trainer list I gave on page 1? I admit that I'm (like most people) prone to error and would be open to a constructive critique about parts of the list that seem off.
     
  8. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    Applying tiers is not an argument...

    Puss in Boots exhausted a ton of stamina exchanging Thunderbolts and Iron Tails.

    And why can't they? Puss in Boots knows Double Team. Donphan can Sandstorm the entire battlefield, so Sceptile can't see anything, and it could probably just Rollout on the roots regardless. Sceptile has Detect, which would allow it to dodge said "guided missile". Just because the newer animation gives the impression of being powerful doesn't mean any Pokemon not named AG can't avoid the attack.

    Anime has literally proven time and time again of Pikachu's inconsistency, from battle to battle. Also said Pikachu had already battled beforehand.

    And you are making this assumption based on...what? Tyson's Sceptile uses Detect, or Puss in Boots' speed and smaller body, and both are avoiding the roots. Let's see...Sceptile can't see anything and fires a bunch of roots. Donphan, under that cover, hops on the vine express and bodies Sceptile from all dimensions.


    How about the fact that Torkoal was not the "worst ever" at the time based on its win over Shiftry, and lost because Hariyama was that much better?


    You mean trainers like Trevor, Tierno, and the Garchomp dude? Yeah, they could totally be on par with E4 aces.

    Ash's Kalos team couldn't even curbstomp, if not outright lose, to his previous regional teams.


    This:

     
  9. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    - B
    "Trip, Barry, Cameron , Morrison"


    Trip,Barry,Morrison,and Cameron should be in the B+

    Tierno,Stephan,and Nando haven't shown enough to place them higher than those trainers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  10. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Subjectivity does not address what's explicitly shown in the anime. Try again.

    Right, my argument is comprised of "absurd theories" even though I'm selecting events shown in the manga and piecing them together to form a logical conclusion. What you're doing is denying them, failing to refute the argument that I've presented and then firmly adhering to your own subjective view of the anime.

    Greninja's power fluctuates depending on the emotional connection Greninja has with Ash. That's explicitly shown when Ash's Greninja consistently grew stronger and was shown to be empowered by Ash's emotions, resulting in even more monstrous attacks as was the case against Diantha, Sawyer, and Alain. Unlike Mega Evolution, the boost Ash-Greninja is dynamic, so Greninja being inferior to Charizard doesn't correlate to Mega Charizard X having unparalleled strength in respect to Ash-Greninja.

    Again, experience doesn't matter in this scenario and hardly refutes what's explicitly shown. The writers illustrating Greninja's ability to conquer Blast Burn, clash with Mega Charizard X and even overwhelm him, and even land hits that even Mega Charizard X struggled to recover from denotes them each having rivaled strength. Did you happen to skim through Alain's intrapersonal dialogue where he acknowledged that he was having a load of fun, something that was nearly non-existent before, and then continued to state that despite how powerful Ash was, he had to be the strongest? He treated him as a stepping stone for establishing supremacy which wouldn't be logical if Ash-Greninja was suddenly much weaker than Alain was.

    Paul was on good terms with Ash because he acknowledged him as his equal and Electivire vs. Infernape was symbolic of that. Even Brock remarked how their ambitions manifested through Electivire and Infernape and Infernape's victory was symbolic of Ash having finally surpassed Paul and basically proving him wrong.
     
  11. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    Take your own advice then

    You keep thinking that :)
     
  12. Xenon Blue

    Xenon Blue No Hard Feelings

    I'll just include all the major league participants, since E4's and Champion gets really wonky when trying to order them. Note that I'm taking into account of the trainer's skill and knowledge, not just their Pokemon lineup.

    S: Tobias

    A+: Alain, GPICSS Ash
    A: Kalos Ash, Sinnoh Ash, Paul
    A-: Tyson, Virgil

    B+: Sawyer, Hoenn Ash, Conway, Harrison, Katie
    B: Barry, Stephan, Trip, Johto Ash, Gary, Nando
    B-: Tierno, Cameron, Morrison, Unova Ash

    C: Trevor, Ritchie, Kanto Ash

    If we are talking purely about the skill of the trainer though, as in if they were in a battle factory setting where the Pokemon used is on a even playing field, then it would look a lot different with trainers like Paul, Trip and Conway doing much better while trainers like Tobias and Alain falling down due to the lack of immediate firepower.
     
  13. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Me synthesizing information presented by the writers isn't equivalent to presenting an unsubstantiated tier list. Try again.


    Fair enough. Agree to disagree.
     
  14. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    What information?You giving your opinion about how strong AG is and what it's capable of doing is no better than me or anyone else making a tier list.
     
  15. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Ash would have beaten Cameron (6 Pokémon or not) had he used Krookodile, Leavanny and Palpitoad over Boldore, Oshawatt and Unfezzant. There was also no Deus Ex Evolution invoked in the Stephan match. I'd rate Stephan as lower than full power BW Ash but in the same tier since they had a good clean match. Ash used a better team against Nando than against Conway. If Conway is B+, then so is Nando. Tierno literally used a rain team. That in it of itself deserves B+. Barry seemed to be the weakest of the Sinnoh rivals (not saying that Nando and Conway could beat Paul, but I do think they could KO 1 Pokémon before falling). We haven't seen Trip's final team barring Serperior so we can't know his actual lvl, but it isn't looking promising if even the writers lost interest in the character. He just doesn't have the feats to deserve any better than B. Ash vs Morrison (barring Glalie vs Metang) was absolute DEM F***** Horse S*** and yes I'm using DEM accurately here. I already went into detail previously about how Ash was nerfed to make a 4 vs 6 match look competitive.
     
  16. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    How was mine opinionated? Astrid and Alain's debut established a whole new level of power that AG Ash (Hoenn League) doesn't compare to while Sawyer has proven to have matched that level of power. That's not opinionated, that's explicitly shown to us.
     
  17. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    The part about you saying AG is "on par" with Alain's Charizard is.
     
  18. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Ehh, he certainly seemed above Conway. Conway's better at strategizing and planning a battle in advance, but he virtually lacks versatility. The best thing he had done was use Shuckle and impel Gible to spit him out using Sludge Bomb, but his other performances with Lickilicky and Dusknoir were subpar when Ash devised a strategy to counter it. I'm unsure about Nando because while Nando used some clever attack combinations, Sawyer proved to be the better analyst who could also think fast on his feet much like Ash. He definitely wasn't an inferior trainer compared to Conway and Barry, but he is admittedly below Paul.

    But I agree, Sawyer has some amazing powerhouses including Sceptile (even without a Mega Evolution), The Uber Aegislash, Clawitzer who can speed through an entire forest and has attack power augmented by Mega Launcher, and Salamence who should be recognized for at least being a pseudo-legendary. Sawyer's team is pretty stacked and I'm absolutely baffled at how people neglect Aegislash and Clawitzer, especially the former of which who uses Swords Dance + OP King's Shield. Highly doubt Sawyer's only good pokemon was Sceptile and certainly wouldn't justify how Sawyer even defeated Wulfuric in the first place.
     
  19. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Ugh, I confused Ash-Greninja with AG Ash, that's my mistake.

    That's not subjective, we're shown during the 2nd and final bout that they're equal. I'm presenting evidence shown in the anime as well as how Ash was portrayed in respect to Alain. That's not subjective and there was not even a bit of dishonesty or fabrication in my argument. I'm not sure how you believed my argument was opinionated.

    If you thought it was wrong even after reading my argument, then that's fine, but judging something to be wrong and subjective are two different things.
     
  20. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    No this is all opinionated because I've seen the match as well,you're just right off the bat assuming AG is equal to MCX despite having been through much more training.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page