Pokémon Trainer Anime Canon Tier List

[Navin]

Lazy Eyes nailed it above.

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So your saying that Grovyle after beating Shiftry would have put up a good fight against a Claydol that was confirmed to be stronger than a Venasaur that took the combined efforts of Heracross and Swellow to beat? Sceptile would have swept Greta or narrowly lost to Medicham depending on how effective her "strategy" would be on Sceptile. Sceptile and Snorlax are both tier 1 and there is nothing to suggest that Greta was more powerful/skilled than Spencer. I'm sorry but your reasoning here honestly doesn't make any sense.

Sure.

Greta was prepared for a pick like Grovyle with a deceptively quick Hariyama that could defend with Arm Thrust, and then baited Ash/Grovyle into a close-range Leaf Blade right into an exposed Focus Punch. Snorlax was a much better match-up. Sceptile would have had the same issues, though obviously he would have fared better.

My point is that Sceptile would fare far better than your suggesting. Sceptile beat Claydol in addition to Shiftry by itself. Claydol is above Venasaur. It took nearly everything Heracross+Swellow had to beat Venasaur (Swellow was exhausted to the point of easily getting revenge killed without dealing any damage). Metagross beat a severely weakened Swellow, Grovyle that by any shred of reasonable logic was atleast 2 tiers below Sceptile and proceeded to loose to Pikachu without dealing any damage. This Pikachu was definitely weaker than the Pikachu that beat Regice. If you don't agree with this claim, then your blatantly wrong from a logical, narrative and consensus perspective and I have nothing more to say to you on this matter. Point is that this Metagross is not beating a fully healthy Swellow and Heracross (it would have a difficult time beating 1 at full health much less 2). That puts Venasaur as an upper bound for Metagross and even that's pushing it. In summation, Sceptile > Shiftry + Claydol > Claydol > Venasaur >= Metagross meaning that Sceptile would either straight up beat another 1 of Tyson's regular Pokémon or significantly damage Tyson's Meowth before falling. That's my point. Please tell me if this wasn't explicit enough. Peakachu by my definition is the Pikachu against Lucy, Anabel 2, Brandon 3, Tobias and Alain. All those variants of Pikachu were better than the Pikachu against Tyson from any reasonable viewpoint conceivable.

These type of A+B>C>D arguments don't work. Tyson's Metagross lost because Swellow landed an absolutely clutch armor crack that Ash was able to exploit with Grovyle, and take advantage of Pikachu's body frame to ultimately win. Puss in Boots was a league champion's best Pokemon, and the fact that Pikachu held out that long shows that it was one of his best feats. Sceptile could defeat Metagross, sure, but he's going to lose to set up as a revenge kill for Meowth. Ash would win because of a fresher Pikachu, but the margin would be only be 6-5.

Well that or Hoenn just has better health care than Johto (and Sinnoh). Johto made it very explicit when stamina issues were affecting a Pokémon. There isn't a single statement backing up that Ash's or anyone else's Pokémon were feeling "wear&tear" so there's no way for you to back up your claim, especially when I've given an easily explainable alternative.

Better health care...lol okay. These are the type of things that don't need to be explained when they're patently obvious.

Yeah Ash's statements > your or my opinion. XYZ 33 Ash says "this is my best team" with a straight face. It is possible that the statement can have multiple interpretations, but it's fallacious to ignore the statement just because it doesn't fit with your perception. I don't make the rules on this. If you have issues with the validity of testimony from a reliable source, then please go consult an Epistemology professor about it.

Calling them his "best members" could mean anything. Like "You're the best members to face Sawyer because you have gotten me this far." It's an obvious motivational line to pump them up. C'mon now.

Convenient matchups? Alright let's see how much validity there is to this point. Slaking vs Hariyama. Fighting type vs Fighting type. Seems neutral to me. Mega Sceptile vs Meowth. Ace vs Ace. Seems fair to me. Aegeslash vs Metagross. I can't think of more mutually neutral opponents for both of them. Maybe Aegeslash was just that good (it's the reason Pikachu was so worn out against Sceptile. Sure the finals Pikachu was stronger because it was allowed to battle with its full cumulative experience, but even regular Kalos Pikachu was surprisingly consistent.) Swords Dance + Sacred Sword + King's Shield is going to give Metagross a close fight. It isn't laughable since I don't consider Tyson's Metagross to be that strong. I was even high balling it in my previous point and even then I'd put it below Alain's.

Hariyama wins or draws against Slaking (I'll say the latter). The same Aegislash that beat Ludicolo but lost to Raichu rather easily? Lol right. Metagross uses Psychic/Confusion to trap the Shield in place; Aegislash goes for a hit, recoils from the armor, and gets blasted by a Meteor Mash or Hyper Beam.

Shiftry literally lost in a minute to a tier 4 Torkoal with an utterly pathetic resume up until that point and is Tyson's weak link. None of Torkoal's prior feats are impressive by Ash Pokémon standards and loosing to a Steelix actually goes against a subplot of Torkoal overcoming the Steelix species which just makes Torkoal look more pathetic.

Torkoal performed decently at HL - drawing Tropius, lost to Katie because of the Iron Defense disable + immediate switch into Golduck, and helped weaken Morrison's Steelix. The Shiftry v Torkoal match was ongoing when panned into it, and Shiftry set up for the Hariyama revenge kill.

Any of Sawyer's remaining 3 Pokémon could take it (Clawitzer could even take it comfortably and then just use heal pulse to remove any damage taken. Slurpuff and Salamance would both be bad matchups type wise but that's on Tyson for having 2 grass types).

With how easily Slurpuff lost to Blastoise, Shiftry could definitely take it out. Slurpuff looked better than it did because against Ash because of type-advantage as well as Goodra's immobility and Ash's reliance on Bide preventing Goodra from dodging anything and allowed Slurpuff to rain free damage.

I think Clawitzer would take Donphan but either way the winner of this battle isn't walking without being severely wounded. Slamence or Slurpuff can then just revenge kill Donphan if it won.

Clawitzer has nothing against Sandstorm. The better matchup for Shota is at least Salamence, who can try to blow it away like Swellow did. That would be a draw.

Neither can beat Sceptile but both can moderately damage it due to having type advantageous moves against it.

And Sceptile defeats Clawitzer.

Sceptile's detect strategy won't work against Mega Sceptile since detect can't be spammed indefinitely and the onslaught of branches would stay on the offensive for much longer than detect can hold out. Meowth is already at a disadvantage as thunderbolt can't work against Mega Sceptile. Add to that none of its attacks are stronger than MS's Frenzy Plant (and the anime knew how to portray strength well before XY so don't give me your solely because of better production values nonsense) and so Meowth won't be able to destroy the branches. Trying to find an opening while constantly being worn out by using double team to escape the branches is going to be a pain no matter how 1 looks at it. As of now, I can't fathom Tyson taking it. Of course I'd love to see these UNBIASED NEUTRAL match ups of yours that convince you Tyson would win (Sarcasm).

So you have:

Hariyama >/= Slaking (let's assume draw)
Shiftry > Slurpuff
Donphan = Salamence
Metagross > Aegislash
Sceptile > Clawitzer

If Sawyer can spam Leaf Storms and Frenzy Plants, nothing suggests that Tyson can't keep ordering his Sceptile to use Detect. Metagross can use Confusion on the vines, and Psychic on M-Sceptile. Not sure how Tyson's ace is conveniently unable to slash his way through vines (since AG can just Cut through them just fine) other than it helps your arguments, but that's definitely happening. M-Sceptile would be raid boss material, but he's definitely not taking out arguably Tyson's three best Pokemon.


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I provided my reasoning for the tiers if you read my previous posts. Tiers are just rough estimates of Pokemen's strength based on their feats, and I use them to show that both Meowth and Metagross are completely out of Mega-Sceptile's league. Um, Swellow is strong alright, but his strength is nothing compared to Sawyer's frenzy plant.

By that logic, Metagross is Tier 1 material. Therefore it's not out of M-Sceptile's league. See how that's not an argument? Considering how AG can just Cut through vines, then yeah I'm pretty sure any good Pokemon can break through them just fine.

Ash-Greninja is capable of running atop of the vines purely because of it's speed (it is faster than Diantha's Gardevoir). Faster pokemon than Donphan (Pikachu) and those just as bulky (Blastoise) were both completely annihilated.

Except if M-Sceptile can't see anything, those directed vines will be flailing around and easy terrain for Donphan to just Rollout aerial bombardments.

Sandstorm is just a temporary escape, because Donphan won't be able to see Sceptile as well. Once Sandstorm clears Donphan is done for. Besides, leaf storm can probably counter sandstorm the same way Torkoal's heat wave countered sandstorm.

Donphan have keen sense of smell, and with Sand Veil in anime context, can probably navigate just fine to M-Sceptile.

I don't think you understand how detect works in the anime. Watch "A meditite fight". It is sort of like protect, if you keep using it it will fail. Sawyer's frenzy plant keeps chasing after you, and has pretty much zero cooldown.

Greninja came in close, and Sceptile had to stop the Frenzy Plant. Detect can allow Sceptile to evade the vines and either attack M-Sceptile directly or buy time to destroy the vines with Bullet Seed or Solar Beam.

League Champion =/= automatically powerful. Paul's SL team (who came top 8) would beat Tyson.

That's debatable, and a different topic. But he obviously is powerful considering he manmoded with the same team through an entire league, including five consecutive full battles against trainers with obviously good Pokemon and variant styles.

After the double team is neutralised, Puss in boots is cat meat. Even if it manages to get up close it will get straight up overpowered by leaf blade like KL Pikachu did (KL Pikachu > HL Pikachu). I explained Sandstorm and detect, and Metagross' psychic and only hold back Sceptile for so long. Swellow broke free pretty quickly.

Puss in Boots' Iron Tail/Slash can definitely match Leaf Blade in power lol.

Pikachu is inconsistent between Sagas, but his progression throughout each Saga does fluctuate massively. Pikachu at the league was not even close to BF/SL/KL Pikachu. Are you suggesting that Meowth can take on Latios, Regice or take out Tyrannitar and Metagross? lmao.

The latter two is more than possible.

"Drew against some random trainer in the qualifying rounds"
"Gave a good fight against a pokemon who had already battled and has type advantage against"
Seriously, your attempt at making HL Torkoal look half-decent sounds pathetic

Nah, you're just underrating it.

You know why they didn't show half-decent trainers like Katie/Morrison in the league? Because Ash creamed them so hard that showing the battle would be boring. They established that average trainers such as Tomo (guy with Altaria) were of no match to Ash/Alain/Shota from the beginning, whereas in previous leagues Ash always gave a hard fight in the qualifying rounds. The top trainers in Kalos (Alain, Ash, Shota) would dominate Hoenn.

That's hilariously nonsensical. Ash's Kalos team couldn't even curbstomp, if not outright lose, to his Hoenn team.

 

[snorlax512]

By that logic, Metagross is Tier 1 material. Therefore it's not out of M-Sceptile's league. See how that's not an argument? Considering how AG can just Cut through vines, then yeah I'm pretty sure any good Pokemon can break through them just fine.

In reality Metagross only defeated a tier-2 grovyle. Granted, he would have done some damage to Pikachu if Swellow didn't poke a hole in its armour, but that doesn't justify a place in tier 1. It is not in the same league as Infernape/Charizard/Sceptile who are capable of sweeping half a team, and nowhere near low god-tier Mega Sceptile.

"any good pokemon can just cut through vines". Games cut =/= AG cut. Diantha said that if AG's cut had made contact, her Gardevoir would have been K.Oed. There were literally multiple tree sized roots flying at AG, and he destroys them all with one hit. There is no indication whatsoever that any of Sawyer's pokemon have similar strength or speed to do that.

Donphan have keen sense of smell, and with Sand Veil in anime context, can probably navigate just fine to M-Sceptile.

Fine. Nevertheless, M-Sceptile can use leaf storm to counter, just like how Ash's Torkoal used heat-wave to counter Registeel's sandstorm. It is not that hard y'know, Swellow got rid of it by flapping its wings.

Greninja came in close, and Sceptile had to stop the Frenzy Plant. Detect can allow Sceptile to evade the vines and either attack M-Sceptile directly or buy time to destroy the vines with Bullet Seed or Solar Beam.

AG made it through because it is faster, and double-team takes longer to deal with. Detect will fail after dodging a few vines, bullet seed is a relatively weak attack, and solar beam will take too long to charge.

That's debatable, and a different topic. But he obviously is powerful considering he manmoded with the same team through an entire league, including five consecutive full battles against trainers with obviously good Pokemon and variant styles.

Tyson is a strong trainer, but what we saw in the HL was nothing compared to the deus ex machina's in XY who were capable of taking on the E4

Puss in Boots' Iron Tail/Slash can definitely match Leaf Blade in power lol.

lol. Base Sceptile easily outmatched KL Pikachu's iron tail. Use your fluctuating excuse all you want, but HL Pikachu is not better than KL Pikachu.

The latter two is more than possible.

Lmao Meowth was struggling against some random Persian in the qualifying rounds. You can use your fluctuating excuse to boost Pikachu up to tier 1 for that battle to make him look good, but Puss in boots was overrated. Metagross > Puss in boots.

Nah, you're just underrating it.

We both know Torkoal was terrible before BF. The feats you named sounded pathetic compared to the rest of Ash's Hoenn team.

That's hilariously nonsensical. Ash's Kalos team couldn't even curbstomp, if not outright lose, to his Hoenn team.

Firstly, I was talking about stomping average trainers. KL was rigorous, it was just that the "elite" trainers were in a different league.
HL opening round: Random trainer puts up a good fight against Ash
KL opening round: Random trainer gets one shotted
It wasn't that KL lacked average trainers, it was just that Ash/Alain/Shota were so much better that they skipped to the semis.
Also, AG could probably take 4-5 of Ash's HL team.

 

[Genaller]

Fine MAL I don't think either of us are going to change our minds so I'll just say this. In a neutral match Ash's Kalos team beat Sawyer convincingly 6-5. A neutral (no or minimal switching) match between peak Hoenn team and Tyson would go

Sceptile vs Glalie -> Draw
Shiftry vs Torkoal -> Torkoal
Hariyama vs Torkoal -> Haryiama
Hariyama vs Corphish -> Corphish
Donphan vs Corphish -> Donphan
Donphan vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Metagross vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Meowth vs Sceptile -> Meowth
Meowth vs Pikachu -> Pikachu convincingly
6-4 to Hoenn. If Ash uses Swellow instead of Torkoal against Shiftry, Hoenn takes it 6-3. I guess I just have a higher opinion of Ash's tier 1 than you do.

Hypothetical neutral Sawyer vs Tyson

Hariyama vs Slaking -> Slaking
Donphan vs Slaking -> Donphan
Donphan vs Slaamence -> Draw
Shiftry vs Slurpuff -> Slurpuff
Sceptile vs Slurpuff -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Clawitzer -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Aegeslash -> Aegeslash
Metagross vs Aegeslash -> Metagross
Metagross vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Meowth vs Sceptile/Mega Sceptile -> Mega Sceptile
Sawyer wins 6-5

Slurpuff is the perfect counter for Shiftry as it has both Fire and Fariy moves. HL Torkoal is low tier 4 by Ash Pokémon standards at best. No shame in getting OHKoed by a STAB Hydro Cannon by a FE starter (considering the feat I'm expecting it to perform). Tierno was competent (the guy literally had a rain team). From the way I tier Ash's Pokémon; Sinnoh, Kalos and Hoenn all get a score of 13 (adding up the tier numbers), Kanto/OI gets a score of 10, Johto 19 and Unova 20. Also declining stamina from battle to battle may be an issue, but not to the extent that your overrating it to be. The only 2 instances where it's obvious are Harrison's Blaziken and implicitly Ash's Infernape. Both times were because both Pokémon pushed themselves well past their limits.

 

[Navin]

In reality Metagross only defeated a tier-2 grovyle. Granted, he would have done some damage to Pikachu if Swellow didn't poke a hole in its armour, but that doesn't justify a place in tier 1. It is not in the same league as Infernape/Charizard/Sceptile who are capable of sweeping half a team, and nowhere near low god-tier Mega Sceptile. "any good pokemon can just cut through vines". Games cut =/= AG cut. Diantha said that if AG's cut had made contact, her Gardevoir would have been K.Oed. There were literally multiple tree sized roots flying at AG, and he destroys them all with one hit. There is no indication whatsoever that any of Sawyer's pokemon have similar strength or speed to do that. Fine. Nevertheless, M-Sceptile can use leaf storm to counter, just like how Ash's Torkoal used heat-wave to counter Registeel's sandstorm. It is not that hard y'know, Swellow got rid of it by flapping its wings. AG made it through because it is faster, and double-team takes longer to deal with. Detect will fail after dodging a few vines, bullet seed is a relatively weak attack, and solar beam will take too long to charge. Tyson is a strong trainer, but what we saw in the HL was nothing compared to the deus ex machina's in XY who were capable of taking on the E4

You keep referencing M-Sceptile with relation to AG, who clearly outclassed it by the end. This a universe where Pokemon routinely break through walls, boulders, trees, etc. Meowth can definitely cut down roots, Sceptile can spam Detect (like how M-Sceptile spams Leaf Storm + Frenzy Plant), etc. Mega Evolution and newer animation gives you the illusion of increased power.

lol. Base Sceptile easily outmatched KL Pikachu's iron tail. Use your fluctuating excuse all you want, but HL Pikachu is not better than KL Pikachu.

Denying the fluctuation is an excuse. KL Alain Pikachu =/= KL Sawyer Pikachu. HL Tyson Pikachu battled extremely well.

Lmao Meowth was struggling against some random Persian in the qualifying rounds. You can use your fluctuating excuse to boost Pikachu up to tier 1 for that battle to make him look good, but Puss in boots was overrated. Metagross > Puss in boots.

Top-notch trainers can be seeded against each other early.

We both know Torkoal was terrible before BF. The feats you named sounded pathetic compared to the rest of Ash's Hoenn team.

Calling it "pathetic" doesn't change the fact that Torkoal did battle decently. Obviously Torkoal is the worst of Ash's Hoenn team, but his Hoenn team was quite good.

Firstly, I was talking about stomping average trainers. KL was rigorous, it was just that the "elite" trainers were in a different league.
HL opening round: Random trainer puts up a good fight against Ash
KL opening round: Random trainer gets one shotted
It wasn't that KL lacked average trainers, it was just that Ash/Alain/Shota were so much better that they skipped to the semis.
Also, AG could probably take 4-5 of Ash's HL team.

This just proves the KL was full of nobodies. Tierno reached the QFs and he's arguably worse than Morrison and Katie. Remo the other semifinalist was annihilated. Based on the fact that trainers like Ash, Morrison, and Katie were losing before the semifinals, on top of the tough fights for Ash/Morrison/Tyson throughout the tournament, the Hoenn League was incredibly deep and therefore remarkable that Tyson won with the same team through the early rounds + five consecutive full battles.

Hypothetical neutral Sawyer vs Tyson

Fixed. (And this is assuming these matchups, and not something where Tyson picks to be more favorable)

Hariyama vs Slaking -> Slaking (I think Hariyama wins or draws, but I'll give you this one)
Donphan vs Slaking -> Donphan
Donphan vs Slaamence -> Draw
Shiftry vs Slurpuff -> Shiftry
Shiftry vs Clawitzer -> Clawitzer
Sceptile vs Clawitzer -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Aegeslash -> Sceptile
Sceptile v Mega Sceptile -> M-Sceptile
Metagross vs Mega Sceptile -> Draw or M-Sceptile
Meowth vs Mega Sceptile -> [Match already won] or Meowth

Tyson wins a decisive 6-5.

 

[snorlax512]

Maldread are you serious?
Slurpuff tied to Goodra. Shiftry lost to Torkoal
With type advantage as well, Shiftry is not beating slurpuff lmao
Also, M-Sceptile is not drawing to a basically dead Sceptile and Metagross LOL
There are other problems but these two are ridiculous.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Maldread are you serious?
Slurpuff tied to Goodra. Shiftry lost to Torkoal
With type advantage as well, Shiftry is not beating slurpuff lmao
Also, M-Sceptile is not drawing to a basically dead Sceptile and Metagross LOL
There are other problems but these two are ridiculous.

What is the point of arguing with Maldread when he is always going to stick to his opinion no matter what? Pikachu was arguably at its worst in the Hoenn League- it was the fall guy against Katie and Morrison. Kalos League Pikachu was better than it by a mile. Meowth struggled seriously to win against Hoenn League Pikachu, and he thinks that it can beat Mega Sceptile who easily defeated Kalos League Pikachu as base Sceptile. Mega Sceptile would just one-shot Meowth with Dragon Claw, to be honest.

 

[snorlax512]

You keep referencing M-Sceptile with relation to AG, who clearly outclassed it by the end. This a universe where Pokemon routinely break through walls, boulders, trees, etc. Meowth can definitely cut down roots, Sceptile can spam Detect (like how M-Sceptile spams Leaf Storm + Frenzy Plant), etc. Mega Evolution and newer animation gives you the illusion of increased power.

I keep referencing AG because if an god-tier pokemon with insane speed and power just about avoided getting flattened by his frenzy plant, Tyson's tier 2s won't be able to do jack. If pokemon can "routinely" break through frenzy plants, what happened to Blastoise and Pikachu? You cannot spam detect, this has been explained in the anime. Sawyer's Sceptile has been trained extremely well (Tierno commented on frenzy plant's strength, it's not just animation) and has explicitly shown that his frenzy plant has no cooldown. There is no reason to assume Tyson's sceptile can break anime rules.

Watch the episode and look at how brutally Pikachu and Blastoise got destroyed, and tell me how Meowth (who < HL Pikachu < KL Pikachu) would fare.

Denying the fluctuation is an excuse. KL Alain Pikachu =/= KL Sawyer Pikachu. HL Tyson Pikachu battled extremely well.

Seriously, by your standards we cannot use Pikachu at all in comparisons.
Pikachu's strength does fluctuate between the end of a series and the start of a new one. However, throughout the same saga, his progression is relatively constant. He never becomes weaker, and he is always the strongest at the end of the saga. KL Pikachu was at the end of XY, and therefore is the strongest it gets. You act like Pikachu jumps from tier 1 to tier 3 between battles. This does not happen. He was a solid high tier 2 during the HL (Peakachu would have definitely beaten a tired Steelix), and towards the battle frontier it was a tier 1.

And Alain Pikachu =/= Sawyer Pikachu? really? how astronomical is the difference? Defeating a tier 4 Tyrannitar and a high tier 2 metagross is so much superior than defeating two low tier 2 Aegislash and Clawister. Meowth wasn't as good as you think, and stands no chance against M-Sceptile. Face it.

Calling it "pathetic" doesn't change the fact that Torkoal did battle decently. Obviously Torkoal is the worst of Ash's Hoenn team, but his Hoenn team was quite good.

It drew to a random trainer in the qualifying rounds, lost to Golduck and lost to a Steelix which was a) worn out b) had a type advantage against. It did not battle decently. I cannot think of any of Ash's other pokemon who has a worse resume. Shiftry was shite.

This just proves the KL was full of nobodies. Tierno reached the QFs and he's arguably worse than Morrison and Katie. Remo the other semifinalist was annihilated. Based on the fact that trainers like Ash, Morrison, and Katie were losing before the semifinals, on top of the tough fights for Ash/Morrison/Tyson throughout the tournament, the Hoenn League was incredibly deep and therefore remarkable that Tyson won with the same team through the early rounds + five consecutive full battles.

Morrison and Katie came top 16/32, but they could have easily reached the quarter finals, they just as you say "got seeded against strong opponents early on". They both pushed Ash to his last pokemon, and Ash's battle with Tyson could have gone either way.

 

[snorlax512]

What is the point of arguing with Maldread when he is always going to stick to his opinion no matter what? Pikachu was arguably at its worst in the Hoenn League- it was the fall guy against Katie and Morrison. Kalos League Pikachu was better than it by a mile. Meowth struggled seriously to win against Hoenn League Pikachu, and he thinks that it can beat Mega Sceptile who easily defeated Kalos League Pikachu as base Sceptile. Mega Sceptile would just one-shot Meowth with Dragon Claw, to be honest.

His pathetic argument is that Pikachu sucked against Katie and Morrison, but since his power "fluctuates" he became incredibly powerful against Meowth, which makes Meowth incredibly powerful as well. Desperate.

 

[DankOverlord]

What is the point of arguing with Maldread when he is always going to stick to his opinion no matter what?

Look who's talking

 

[Izanagi777]

That's 6v2 with overwhelming battle motivation coming from both Sceptile and Pikachu. I'd be surprised if that Ash couldn't take one or two Cynthia's mons too (not Garchomp obviously)

Well, that's assuming that the rest of Tobias party is stronger than either Darkrai or Latios, considering if it's Cynthia's Garchomp for example, i'm pretty sure she can swept Ash's team at that time, given she capable to give 3 of Paul's pokemon (including Torterra which should be stronger than either Electivire or Infernape) a one-shot treatment.. But yeah, i guess i downplayed Tobias quite a bit, right now i think he's much closer to Champion than i thought it was..

No Ash-Grenina was not on par with Diantha's MG otherwise Ash would have won against Alain a long time ago,Paul may have lost to Cynthia's Garchomp but it managed to get a few hits on it before being knocked out,it used Giga Drain which brought it to one knee then used Frenzy Plant,I could not see Greninja doing the same in its regular state.

It's just shown that Alan is actually that strong, not otherwise.. The bottom line is, even Paul's Torterra get one-shot treatment by Cynthia's Garchomp and it's supposed to be his strongest pokemon.. Now, even if we assume that Diantha's Mega Gardevoir wasn't going all out, but the fact that Ash-Greninja actually pushed her into using reflect for 2 times consecutively and will proceed to unleashed it's finishing blow before the evolution is failed was actually impressive.. Compare that to Ash's Infernape in sinnoh for example, it get defeated by Flint's Infernape without too much difficulty which only an Elite 4 level Pokemon.. So yeah, just like @Ash-Pikachu said, Ash (w/ Ash-Greninja) should be comparable and on-par with Alan and his Mega Charizard X..

Ehh, he certainly seemed above Conway. Conway's better at strategizing and planning a battle in advance, but he virtually lacks versatility. The best thing he had done was use Shuckle and impel Gible to spit him out using Sludge Bomb, but his other performances with Lickilicky and Dusknoir were subpar when Ash devised a strategy to counter it. I'm unsure about Nando because while Nando used some clever attack combinations, Sawyer proved to be the better analyst who could also think fast on his feet much like Ash. He definitely wasn't an inferior trainer compared to Conway and Barry, but he is admittedly below Paul.

But I agree, Sawyer has some amazing powerhouses including Sceptile (even without a Mega Evolution), The Uber Aegislash, Clawitzer who can speed through an entire forest and has attack power augmented by Mega Launcher, and Salamence who should be recognized for at least being a pseudo-legendary. Sawyer's team is pretty stacked and I'm absolutely baffled at how people neglect Aegislash and Clawitzer, especially the former of which who uses Swords Dance + OP King's Shield. Highly doubt Sawyer's only good pokemon was Sceptile and certainly wouldn't justify how Sawyer even defeated Wulfuric in the first place.

I see.. Well, but to be fair ofc i included those Trick Room tactic into account and i still think it's one of the more clever tactic that ever used by pokemon trainer in the league so far.. but yeah, ofc i agree with you about the versatility department since i do know that Sawyer himself is a clever trainer, with his analysis tactic and else.. As for Nando, lol i actually forgot about him, but well Sawyer does seems more creative than he was..

Well, when it comes to power, i'm sure he's impressive.. I can even say that he's on par with both D/P Ash and Paul given he can give Ash-Greninja a hard time before eventually get beaten.. So yeah, basically i agree with the rest of your statements.. True, his Aegislash is one of the most impressive pokemon in the league bar Mega Evolution Pokemon tbh..

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

even Paul's Torterra get one-shot treatment by Cynthia's Garchomp and it's supposed to be his strongest pokemon.

What are you honestly getting at here? This all happened before Mega Evolution ever existed.

 

[DankOverlord]

Compare that to Ash's Infernape in sinnoh for example, it get defeated by Flint's Infernape without too much difficulty which only an Elite 4 level Pokemon.. So yeah, just like @Ash-Pikachu said, Ash (w/ Ash-Greninja) should be comparable and on-par with Alan and his Mega Charizard X..
.

Infernape had recently evolved, and he fought an opponent who was an expert on hsi species.
He din't activated Baze unlike Ag who wnet IZUKE-mode for Mega Gard.
It's kinda unfair coz Greninja had mroe experience at the time it fought Mega Gard

 

[snorlax512]

Infernape had recently evolved, and he fought an opponent who was an expert on hsi species.
He din't activated Baze unlike Ag who wnet IZUKE-mode for Mega Gard.
It's kinda unfair coz Greninja had mroe experience at the time it fought Mega Gard

I doubt SL Infernape would have taken more than two hits from Flint's before going down.

 

[Xenon Blue]

What is the point of arguing with Maldread when he is always going to stick to his opinion no matter what?

The irony is so real

His pathetic argument is that Pikachu sucked against Katie and Morrison, but since his power "fluctuates" he became incredibly powerful against Meowth, which makes Meowth incredibly powerful as well. Desperate.

Only reason Pikachu did not do well against Katie and Morrison was because of the matchup. Dugtrio and Steelix is possibly Piakchu's two worst nightmares. It can't switch out against Dugtrio so it has to deal with it no matter what, and without any reliable long-range options it will just get completely shut down by Sand Tomb. What the hell is Pikachu going to do against Steelix? It's defense is absurd, and before you say game =/= anime, try denting an iron snake by ramming into it. Pikachu has nothing that can deal with Steelix efficiently, so it's loss was inevitable. I guess blame Ash for sending out Pikachu when he had better options in Torkoal and Grovyle. I'm not going to say that Pikachu suddenly became godly against Meowth, but he was no pushover and Meowth is also really reliable and powerful.

 

[Genaller]

This just proves the KL was full of nobodies. Tierno reached the QFs and he's arguably worse than Morrison and Katie. Remo the other semifinalist was annihilated. Based on the fact that trainers like Ash, Morrison, and Katie were losing before the semifinals, on top of the tough fights for Ash/Morrison/Tyson throughout the tournament, the Hoenn League was incredibly deep and therefore remarkable that Tyson won with the same team through the early rounds + five consecutive full battles.

Tierno had a Rain Team. If that doesn't show him as strategic and competent (Nando, Conway, Stephan lvl), then I don't know what does. Frankly I hate people like Morrison and Cameron. They embody the weaker traits of Ash cranked up to 11. I wouldn't put nimrods like them on the lvl I mentioned above. I've already explained how Ash was nerfed against Morrison and how Ash would have beaten Camron (6 Pokémon or not) with his best Unova team. Barry had similar qualities but atleast he knew how to use strategy. Katie would annihiale a guy like Morrison, so please don't compare the 2. You can't assume that the trainers in the later rounds were any stronger. Ash was able to take out 2 of Tobias's Pokémon but the guy in the finals couldn't even take out 1. Paul finished in the Top 8 but it's clear he would have done just as well against Tobias. I can just as easily claim that the 1/4 of the tournament that Tyson won in order to advance to the semis was the most intense part of the tournament. Besides if Tyson was the strongest trainer then he's an upper bound for all the other trainers meaning Ash with his best Hoenn,Sinnoh,Kalos and Kanto/OI teams would have beaten them. If your complaining about MC X and AG sweeping, then news flash this is exactly what would happen when E4 Mega lvl Pokémon compete in a league. MC X in particular could likely sweep the Johto, Hoenn and Unvoa leagues.

 

[snorlax512]

Only reason Pikachu did not do well against Katie and Morrison was because of the matchup. Dugtrio and Steelix is possibly Piakchu's two worst nightmares. It can't switch out against Dugtrio so it has to deal with it no matter what, and without any reliable long-range options it will just get completely shut down by Sand Tomb. What the hell is Pikachu going to do against Steelix? It's defense is absurd, and before you say game =/= anime, try denting an iron snake by ramming into it. Pikachu has nothing that can deal with Steelix efficiently, so it's loss was inevitable. I guess blame Ash for sending out Pikachu when he had better options in Torkoal and Grovyle. I'm not going to say that Pikachu suddenly became godly against Meowth, but he was no pushover and Meowth is also really reliable and powerful.

My main point is that HL Pikachu was not at its peak, and was definitely not tier 1 material at the time. Yes, he had bad matchups but Peakachu would have beaten at least Steelix (who had already beaten Torkoal).

And anime =/= real life. KL Pikachu's iron tail sent Metagross crashing into the ground, and Metagross is stronger and arguably better defensively than Steelix. The Pikachu at HL was undoubtedly inferior to the Pikachu at Kalos league. Tyson's Meowth is high tier 2 at best, since he barely beat off-peak Pikachu despite Pikachu having
a) battled previously
b) all electric attacks nullified

EDIT: The main argument was that Meowth stood no chance against M-Sceptile, since Meowth < HL Pikachu < KL Pikachu who got annihilated. Maldread was claiming that this is not the case because Pikachu's power "fluctuates" from battle to battle apparently.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

From OS to AG Pikachu gradually became stronger,Pikachu's real peak form was during the beginning of Battle Frontier,Pikachu's power spontaneously sky rocketed during the battles against Regice and Latios.First half of DP and BW Pikachu was nerfed as it lost to pokemon like Paul's Elekid,Roark's Onix,Trip's Snivy/Servine,and Cress's Panpour.

Pikachu/Latios=Pikachu/Regice>Kalos Pikachu=Sinnoh part 2 Pikachu=Unova part 2 Pikachu=Battle Frontier Pikachu>Hoenn Pikachu>Part 1 Sinnoh Pikachu=Part 1 Unova Pikachu>Johto Pikachu>Orange Islands Pikachu=Kanto Pikachu

 

[snorlax512]

From OS to AG Pikachu gradually became stronger,Pikachu's real peak form was during the beginning of Battle Frontier,Pikachu's power spontaneously sky rocketed during the battles against Regice and Latios.First half of DP and BW Pikachu was nerfed as it lost to pokemon like Paul's Elekid,Roark's Onix,Trip's Snivy/Servine,and Cress's Panpour.

Pikachu/Latios=Pikachu/Regice>Kalos Pikachu=Sinnoh part 2 Pikachu=Unova part 2 Pikachu=Battle Frontier Pikachu>Hoenn Pikachu>Part 1 Sinnoh Pikachu=Part 1 Unova Pikachu>Johto Pikachu>Orange Islands Pikachu=Kanto Pikachu

According to you, Pikachu hasn't improved since Battle Frontier. Surely it's not unreasonable that Pikachu should be able to take Regice/Latios by now if it continued to improve at the same rate from Kanto --> Hoenn instead of getting reset every region.

 

[DankOverlord]

I doubt SL Infernape would have taken more than two hits from Flint's before going down.

With Blaze it would've been different I mean the guy had damae from Aggron, was poisoned and still defeated a boosted Electivire with Blaze

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

According to you, Pikachu hasn't improved since Battle Frontier. Surely it's not unreasonable that Pikachu should be able to take Regice/Latios by now if it continued to improve at the same rate from Kanto --> Hoenn instead of getting reset every region.

Yeah probably