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Pokémon VGC 2016 Ruleset Change

Mr. Reloaded

All encompassing
Agreed wholeheartedly :)

I think Kyogre will make people think twice before selecting Lando T for their teams.

Landorus-T will still get a ton of usage regardless of how many Kyorge's there are. Landorus-T is too versatile to pass up.
 

Azulart

Shiny Hunter
Thinking about it, this will probably be the case.

Haha, It will actually be pretty nasty against the sun teams :x

Its also pretty nasty to go against Rain teams in this metagame, weathers everywhere.. I can't wait to come up with an Anti-metagame team !

Oh also.. this metagame is practically illustrating the WAR that has occurred in GEN3.. (War between Kyorge, grounden and Anti-weather Rayquaza xD)
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
So I think Primal Kyogre + Rayquaza is probably the most dangerous weather pair (more so than Ray + Groudon and Groudon + Kyogre). Many people rely heavily on Groudon switch-ins to neutralize Kyogre's Origin Pulse, and will force a switching war that often puts the Kyogre player at a disadvantage. Rayquaza completely turns the matchup in Kyogre's favor because of Air Lock and by making Precipice Blades less dangerous. In addition, all of Kyogre's other switch-ins die to Dragon Ascent so it's incredibly difficult for an opponent to overwhelm this pair (Ferrothorn can't handle a combination of DA and Origin Pulse), especially against a player that knows they can delay Mega Evolving Rayquaza or even just bring it alongside another Mega. Also Draco Meteor is good.

I'm already seeing people elsewhere saying that Rayquaza isn't broken because defense drops and the fact that it can only hit one Pokemon at a time (that didn't stop Kangaskhan), but from what I've seen, too many people are failing to take advantage of Rayquaza's traits properly (I've found that I'm guilty of this too). Honestly, the most broken thing about Rayquaza is how much of a commanding presence it has over the weather shifts, and how much it supports other Pokemon just by existing (notably, making Rock Slide less free). That and being the only Mega that freely allows you run a second Mega without giving up the ability to bring Rayquaza is so good. Having Kangaskhan and Rayquaza actually feels like I have more options as opposed to fewer, it's almost like I have 7 team members on a 6 Pokemon team. It definitely benefits from support to handle a few things, but really the only opportunity cost to using Rayquaza is the ability to use a different second legendary. And without a doubt, the pros outweigh the cons.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
EditL M-Rayquaza actually sucks with its lackluster bulk and the fact that it takes up the mega slot and one of the restricted legends slots.

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 172-203 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah it's terrible lol (not to mention the same defensive stats as M-Kang, and its ability is amazing)

For real though, Primal Groudon is the number one threat here at the beginning of the season, but the fact that Rayquaza can do so much damage makes it incredibly scary. Burn/intimidate it? It could still drop a massive Draco Meteor. Paralyze/Icy Wind it or set up Trick Room? It can still Extreme Speed. VGC is such a quick, hard hitting format, that even if it just takes down one huge opposing threat, it may have done its job and given its team a massive lead.

While I'm very disappointed that these legends were added (I was hoping for 2015 rules with a 2 legendary ban on ALL VGC 2015 legends (and ideally include Kang in the category lol), but I figured that was a longshot. Still, it would have promoted a lot of new ideas, and the CHALK-T teams that everyone hates would be gone), I am excited to see all the new strategies, though seeing the same "ubers" every single battle may get annoying. Even if just the Primals and Mega Rayquaza were banned, I would feel better about it. Charizard-Y, Politoed, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, and Abomasnow are now useless, and almost every team is going to have at least one primal. It will be interesting to see how those teams are supported, and I'm definitely willing to give it a try, but I'm not very optimistic. Those 3 (plus Xerneas) are just too good.
 
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saPower1000

FLIP ALL THE TABLES
I can see Clefable being really good here, as if you slap a Toxic Orb or Flame Orb on a Magic Guard one, Double Protect, then Follow Me next turn, you can sponge any status or single hit moves directed at your legendary Pokemon, and actually get off a boost (which works amazing for Mega Ray and the Primals, all who get some form of +1/+1 boost, and for Xerneas, who is fine with sacrificing a partner for Geomancy). Clefable is bulky enough to tank moves that are SE (to a degree), so I can see that for getting around the priority Status that will probably be seen, and will free up a Item Slot for Mega Ray. Can't say that this is not going to be a bit painful, but it is interesting to see them lift restrictions on a format, that was pretty tight knit.
 
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Steampunk

One Truth Prevails
So I think Primal Kyogre + Rayquaza is probably the most dangerous weather pair (more so than Ray + Groudon and Groudon + Kyogre). Many people rely heavily on Groudon switch-ins to neutralize Kyogre's Origin Pulse, and will force a switching war that often puts the Kyogre player at a disadvantage. Rayquaza completely turns the matchup in Kyogre's favor because of Air Lock and by making Precipice Blades less dangerous. In addition, all of Kyogre's other switch-ins die to Dragon Ascent so it's incredibly difficult for an opponent to overwhelm this pair (Ferrothorn can't handle a combination of DA and Origin Pulse), especially against a player that knows they can delay Mega Evolving Rayquaza or even just bring it alongside another Mega. Also Draco Meteor is good.

I'm already seeing people elsewhere saying that Rayquaza isn't broken because defense drops and the fact that it can only hit one Pokemon at a time (that didn't stop Kangaskhan), but from what I've seen, too many people are failing to take advantage of Rayquaza's traits properly (I've found that I'm guilty of this too). Honestly, the most broken thing about Rayquaza is how much of a commanding presence it has over the weather shifts, and how much it supports other Pokemon just by existing (notably, making Rock Slide less free). That and being the only Mega that freely allows you run a second Mega without giving up the ability to bring Rayquaza is so good. Having Kangaskhan and Rayquaza actually feels like I have more options as opposed to fewer, it's almost like I have 7 team members on a 6 Pokemon team. It definitely benefits from support to handle a few things, but really the only opportunity cost to using Rayquaza is the ability to use a different second legendary. And without a doubt, the pros outweigh the cons.

Yeah, I can agree that a lot of people are still getting used to Mega-Ray's abilities, and we'll be seeing people using him much better in the future. I personally need to work out a good counter for a megaray that is sashed and has DDance. Admittedly any priority can take care of this, but the problem is switching out to a mon that has priority AFTER the boost. Plus with so many different ways to run megaray, it's hard to tell which one the opponent will be using.

I personally like running life orb megaray and primal Kyogre. With some support mons like cress and whimsicott, it makes them both quite lethal. The hardest thing in this new meta is just getting a read on what people are gonna do next imo.
 

Azulart

Shiny Hunter
Ability based moves seem also very good in this metagame, big mention towards Prankster Worry seed from Whimiscott who can just cancel the Primal weather effects with it.

Cresselia seems like an excellent pokemon for this metagame and is also able to use Skill Swaps so it will activate the Primal Weather once again, which in combination with Groundon is very benefiting since if Groundon gets Levitate with Primal Sun active means he has no Super effective weaknesses.

If we take the primal mons that are availlable in the metagame I can see Mega-Altaria as a solid mega too.
 
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Alatar VGC

House Greyjoy
Ability based moves seem also very good in this metagame, big mention towards Prankster Worry seed from Whimiscott who can just cancel the Primal weather effects with it.

Cresselia seems like an excellent pokemon for this metagame and is also able to use Skill Swaps so it will activate the Primal Weather once again, which in combination with Groundon is very benefiting since if Groundon gets Levitate with Primal Sun active means he has no Super effective weaknesses.

If we take the primal mons that are availlable in the metagame I can see Mega-Altaria as a solid mega too.

Mega Altaria has pixelate. So it would be the regular Altaria, if you choose it. A supporting Altaria isn't a bad thing. IMO of course.

I must admit, i'm a little stumped as to how to deal with P Kyogre atm. I've seen various strategies to deal with P Groudon. But none to deal with Kyogre.
 

Azulart

Shiny Hunter
Mega Altaria has pixelate. So it would be the regular Altaria, if you choose it. A supporting Altaria isn't a bad thing. IMO of course.

I must admit, i'm a little stumped as to how to deal with P Kyogre atm. I've seen various strategies to deal with P Groudon. But none to deal with Kyogre.

Mega-Altaria is an nice answer for Rayquaza tho, as for Cloud nine Altaria.. due its typing I don't really see much use of it in the meta. It needs hidden power water to go against Groundon (Which seems weird)
and tho Ice beam ignores the delta stream, regular altaria cannot win against Rayquaza.. and to Primal Kyorge it doesn't really do much.

Specially defence Storm drain Cradily seems like one of the best answers against P-Kyorge, yeah sure Kyorge has Ice beam but Giga Drain will eventually make Cradily win against Kyorge, other Water absorb / Storm drain can work too, But I can see people use HP Grass on Kyorge in order to bypass the Water Absorbers or storm drain users like Gastrodon. Oh and I think Palkia and Dialga fair well against Kyorge too but I'm not very sure.

EDIT: I just did a calc, turns out Primal Kyorge is able to win in general against Cradily. It can only win against Kyorge if it managed to get a 1+ boost thanks to Storm drain.
 
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Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
Mega Altaria has pixelate. So it would be the regular Altaria, if you choose it. A supporting Altaria isn't a bad thing. IMO of course.

I must admit, i'm a little stumped as to how to deal with P Kyogre atm. I've seen various strategies to deal with P Groudon. But none to deal with Kyogre.

I'd honestly say a well supported Primal Kyogre is in general more difficult to deal with than Groudon is. Offensive pressure from something like Kangaskhan helps but I can't say I know of a sure-fire way to beat Kyogre. Everything that can switch into Kyogre is just easily torn apart if a teammate like Rayquaza is around, and if Rayquaza is a fear then chances are there's a Kangaskhan or Gengar on the same team which makes dealing with Kyogre more difficult. Otherwise, Ferrothorn functions as a good switch-in, it just wants to be careful of taking big damage since repeated Origin Pulses will add up quickly. Just remember that Kyogre is still only base 90 Speed and will almost never run max speed, that's honestly Kyogre's biggest issue.

As for Cloud Nine users, honestly I think they're all bad and generally not worth using. Not even going to touch Golduck but Lickilicky fails to do much of anything beyond beat a few specific threats, and real battles don't take place in a vacuum so it's not as simple as a 1v1 situation here. Altaria just screams "Why are you not just using Rayquaza" to me too. Regular Altaria is too weak to be able to do anything unlike Rayquaza who is still very threatening in its base form, and while Mega Altaria is better it's a soft check to the biggest threats at best. Jolly Dragon Ascent will always OHKO's unless it runs significant bulk, Precipice Blades does a ton, Xerneas kills it and Kyogre has Ice Beam, so I don't really see much merit in running Altaria. I won't deny that maybe they'll get the 2014 Pachirisu treatment (it was useless in 2015 though) and find some sort of small niche on some teams, but I really don't think they're worth it.
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
Did some checks with the Damage Calculator and for Mega Altaria to KO Mega Rayquaza, it needs Dragon Dance setup so it could outspeed Mega Rayquaza and KO it with Return, which is a OHKO (before the opponent sends in Mega Ray). That way, Mega Rayquaza would be too slow to OHKO it with Dragon Ascent but Mega Altaria won't be OHKOed by a M-Ray Extreme Speed.
 
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KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
Did some checks with the Damage Calculator and for Mega Altaria to KO Mega Rayquaza, it needs Dragon Dance setup so it could outspeed Mega Rayquaza and KO it with Return, which is a OHKO (before the opponent sends in Mega Ray). That way, Mega Rayquaza would be too slow to OHKO it with Dragon Ascent but Mega Altaria won't be OHKOed by a M-Ray Extreme Speed.

...Which means nothing because that's barely a check. If a Pokemon has to be able to set up just to check another, then it's not even worth mentioning.
 

SilverChiko

Protect The Smiles!
When it comes to M-Ray counters, a lot of people complain that there are basically none, which is true but my favourite counter/check so far is definitely defensive Yveltal, lives a +1 Adamant Dragon Ascent from non-LO variants and returns the damage with an OHKO in the form of Foul Play.

+1 252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Yveltal: 180-213 (77.2 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. +1Atk/-1Def 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 340-402 (187.8 - 222%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Non-LO Dragon Ascent is a *potential* 3HKO against Yveltal if there are no boosts set up.

+1 LO will always pick it up though making it a shaky check, if anything:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Yveltal: 234-277 (100.4 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This being why I run my Yveltal as Relaxed on my PDon TR team.
 
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Alatar VGC

House Greyjoy
I'd honestly say a well supported Primal Kyogre is in general more difficult to deal with than Groudon is.
And this is why i've switched to building a team around Primal K.
Not only is it a beast. But rain teams in general can be quite formidable. Plus as a setter (and i'm sure you're all well aware) it has offensive pressure that Politoed could only dream of. While it might be gimmicky at this stage, to only build a rain team. The thought is there. Once we get into the format properly, I will at least give it a go.

As for Cloud Nine users, honestly I think they're all bad and generally not worth using. Not even going to touch Golduck
May I ask why? I realise that all the cloud Nine users are in effect a "Gimmick". And that it requires work to get them in on their intended targets. But lets not forget that being able to OHKO both Primal G and Mega Ray is not something to be scoffed at. Will I run them? Golduck perhaps at some stage.

Did some checks with the Damage Calculator and for Mega Altaria to KO Mega Rayquaza, it needs Dragon Dance setup so it could outspeed Mega Rayquaza and KO it with Return, which is a OHKO (before the opponent sends in Mega Ray). That way, Mega Rayquaza would be too slow to OHKO it with Dragon Ascent but Mega Altaria won't be OHKOed by a M-Ray Extreme Speed.

Erm. I personally run the special hyper voice/tail wind set on my Mega Altaria. I looked at using a physical set. But was met with comments such as "Why bother, physical Mega Mence is better + faster"

Sure, Mega Altaria gets the fairy typing. I still wouldn't bet on Altaria in a showdown 1V1 with Mega Rayquaza
 
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Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
Erm. I personally run the special hyper voice/tail wind set on my Mega Altaria. I looked at using a physical set. But was met with comments such as "Why bother, physical Mega Mence is better + faster"

Sure, Mega Altaria gets the fairy typing. I still wouldn't bet on Altaria in a showdown 1V1 with Mega Rayquaza

Mega Mence is surely faster than M-Ray but in a 1v1 situation where both Pokémon are healthy, Lv 100 (though usually in a VGC situation Pokémon are set to Lv 50) and do their max damage (no critical hits) and without stat boosts, Mega Mence eventually loses out if it doesn't have Return and just spams Double-Edge.

So:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 276-325 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Because of recoil damage, Mega Mence could lose up to 108 HP. Mence shall have 223 HP remaining (no EVs, 31 IVs in HP).

And there's Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent:

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 259-305 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It does up to 305 HP damage, which is enough to KO Mega Salamence (even if both Pokémon do their min damage).

But if Mega Salamence used Return instead:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 259-305 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This time Mega Salamence wins out.

Mega Mence doesn't win out all the time but it just depends on what moves you put on it and the current battle situation.

If it used Outrage, it would surely be a OHKO because Strong Winds doesn't affect Mega Rayquaza's weakness to Dragon.
 
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Alatar VGC

House Greyjoy
Mega Mence is surely faster than M-Ray but in a 1v1 situation where both Pokémon are healthy, Lv 100 and do their max damage (no critical hits) and without stat boosts, Mega Mence eventually loses out if it doesn't have Return and just spams Double-Edge.

So:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 276-325 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Because of recoil damage, Mega Mence could lose up to 108 HP. Mence shall have 223 HP remaining (no EVs, 31 IVs in HP).

And there's Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent:

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 259-305 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It does up to 305 HP damage, which is enough to KO Mega Salamence (even if both Pokémon do their min damage).

But if Mega Salamence used Return instead:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 259-305 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This time Mega Salamence wins out.

Mega Mence doesn't win out all the time but it just depends on what moves you put on it and the current battle situation.

I think you mis understood me.

When I was talking about being told "Mega Mence" was better at the physical set. I was talking about the fact in VGC 15. Long before we even knew about the upcoming format. I would not use Mega Mence as a counter for Rayquaza or Mega Rayquaza and i'm still a bit iffy about using either form of Altaria as a counter to it.

Even in this instance, Return is a nice STAB option. However Altaria gets Ice Beam. + Cloud Nine that's a OHKO on Mega Ray.

And, before anyone states it! Yes I know this is a gimmicky option.

For the record. I carry "Return" on my physical Mence. Too often I've seen other players use double edge on numerous Pokemon. It's powerful, but personally I really dislike the recoil.
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
I think you mis understood me.

When I was talking about being told "Mega Mence" was better at the physical set. I was talking about the fact in VGC 15. Long before we even knew about the upcoming format. I would not use Mega Mence as a counter for Rayquaza or Mega Rayquaza and i'm still a bit iffy about using either form of Altaria as a counter to it.

Even in this instance, Return is a nice STAB option. However Altaria gets Ice Beam. + Cloud Nine that's a OHKO on Mega Ray.

And, before anyone states it! Yes I know this is a gimmicky option.

Though nice, generally, normal Altaria isn't that great offensively due to 70 base Attack and Sp. Attack stats. And it pretty much gets OHKOed by Dragon Ascent and gets outsped by Mega Ray.
 

Alatar VGC

House Greyjoy
Though nice, generally, normal Altaria isn't that great offensively due to 70 base Attack and Sp. Attack stats. And it pretty much gets OHKOed by Dragon Ascent and gets outsped by Mega Ray.


When I said "Return is a nice STAB" I was talking about Mega Altaria OFC. In reply to your physical Altaria set. :)

I doubt I will see normal Altaria at all. At least against Mega Ray or Primal K. I do however respect what your saying. Just saying that personally, i'm a bit wary of using Altaria in either form. I may be proved wrong as the format unfolds.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
And this is why i've switched to building a team around Primal K.
Not only is it a beast. But rain teams in general can be quite formidable. Plus as a setter (and i'm sure you're all well aware) it has offensive pressure that Politoed could only dream of. While it might be gimmicky at this stage, to only build a rain team. The thought is there. Once we get into the format properly, I will at least give it a go.


May I ask why? I realise that all the cloud Nine users are in effect a "Gimmick". And that it requires work to get them in on their intended targets. But lets not forget that being able to OHKO both Primal G and Mega Ray is not something to be scoffed at. Will I run them? Golduck perhaps at some stage.

I'm a bit iffy on a rain team just because of the huge control that the weather trio has just upon switching in, and the fact that Kyogre leaving the field for any reason removes the rain makes it a bit more awkward. I've heard people having some success with Mega Swampert because it can help against Groudon, but I don't know. It has potential but the weaknesses are tough I think.

And while Golduck can beat Groudon and Mega Rayquaza in a 1v1, it often won't be that simple of a matchup. Redirection, Protects, spread moves and the like can easily throw that plan out the window, so it's not as easy as bringing Golduck in for a free KO. It also fails to outspeed either without a Scarf unless it's up against a slow Groudon, which really limits it even further. If Rayquaza happens to have set up with Swords Dance at any point, then Extreme Speed is a very clean OHKO anyway. Golduck also fails to do anything to any other Pokemon offensively, and while yeah beating two of the best Pokemon in the format isn't nothing, there are just way better Pokemon that can do that already. It has a small niche, but I think it's just not justifying the hype it's getting.
 
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