Pokémon VGC 2016 Ruleset Change

[EKZ1505]

Mega Mence is surely faster than M-Ray but in a 1v1 situation where both Pokémon are healthy, Lv 100 (though usually in a VGC situation Pokémon are set to Lv 50) and do their max damage (no critical hits) and without stat boosts, Mega Mence eventually loses out if it doesn't have Return and just spams Double-Edge.

So:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 276-325 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Because of recoil damage, Mega Mence could lose up to 108 HP. Mence shall have 223 HP remaining (no EVs, 31 IVs in HP).

And there's Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent:

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 259-305 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It does up to 305 HP damage, which is enough to KO Mega Salamence (even if both Pokémon do their min damage).

But if Mega Salamence used Return instead:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 259-305 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 235-277 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This time Mega Salamence wins out.

Mega Mence doesn't win out all the time but it just depends on what moves you put on it and the current battle situation.

If it used Outrage, it would surely be a OHKO because Strong Winds doesn't affect Mega Rayquaza's weakness to Dragon.

VGC is always max lvl 50, so your calcs may be slightly off (Rayquaza may be potentially Intimidated as well), but the standard Salamence will still usually beat Rayquaza. In VGC (and especially in previous battle competitions where M-Rayquaza was allowed), Salamence is often best run as a mixed set. Most Salamences here are going to carry Draco Meteor for Rayquaza (among other things), so as long as Draco hits, it wins. No one is going to use Outrage, as it attacks a random target in double battles.



I know Altaria is getting a mention here because of Cloud Nine, but it's just plain bad. Even M-Altaria was terrible in VGC 2015. It deserves it fair chance to be tested, but since there are even more powerful Pokemon (and stronger weather setters), I just don't see how it stands a chance.

The only "weather lock" Pokemon I see working consistently is Air Lock Rayquaza as a dual-mega (or a single mega who doesn't mega evolve, or just waits to). It has a nice role it that it doesn't need a mega stone to mega evolve, so it can still do other things if it waits a turn or two to mega evolve.

All the other Cloud Nine Pokemon are very gimmicky because they are so weak other than their ability. The problem is that everyone will know what they do. The only nice thing about them is that you won't have to come up with ways (by switching or with support moves) to "win the weather war," which is going to be huge in this format.

 

[Alatar VGC]

I know Altaria is getting a mention here because of Cloud Nine, but it's just plain bad. Even M-Altaria was terrible in VGC 2015. It deserves it fair chance to be tested, but since there are even more powerful Pokemon (and stronger weather setters), I just don't see how it stands a chance.

Can people please read my posts properly.

I have said numerous times that I do not think either Altaria or Mega Altaria will be able to stand up to Rayquaza or Mega Rayquaza.

I was talking about it in response to someone elses post. Personally I won't be running any Altaria's in the new format.

Even M-Altaria was terrible in VGC 2015

It wasn't that bad! I ran a bulky tail wind setter set.

Mega Altaria performed all right. Not OP by any chance, but not as gimmicky as some other megas I could mention. However this is not thread for that discussion.

That is all.

 

[EKZ1505]

Can people please read my posts properly.

I have said numerous times that I do not think either Altaria or Mega Altaria will be able to stand up to Rayquaza or Mega Rayquaza.

I was talking about it in response to someone elses post. Personally I won't be running any Altaria's in the new format.


It wasn't that bad! I ran a bulky tail wind setter set.

Mega Altaria performed all right. Not OP by any chance, but not as gimmicky as some other megas I could mention. However this is not thread for that discussion.

That is all.

I wasn't addressing your post. I agree with what you said, but just added more since many people have talked about using it.

I tried M-Altaria as a bulky Tailwind setter, but wasn't impressed. It can definitely get it off (barring Taunt), but just doesn't do much else other than some Hyper Voice chip damage after that. Maybe it worked great for you, but I think its problem is that it is outclassed as a Tailwind setter by many other Pokemon, and that's why I don't think it's done anything at all in tournaments :/

 

[Mega Altaria]

VGC is always max lvl 50, so your calcs may be slightly off (Rayquaza may be potentially Intimidated as well), but the standard Salamence will still usually beat Rayquaza. In VGC (and especially in previous battle competitions where M-Rayquaza was allowed), Salamence is often best run as a mixed set. Most Salamences here are going to carry Draco Meteor for Rayquaza (among other things), so as long as Draco hits, it wins. No one is going to use Outrage, as it attacks a random target in double battles.

Kinda missed Intimidate, too. Pretty much, Mega Salamence should win out. And realised that Draco Meteor is more common on M-Mence than Outrage.

 

[B€ntley]

Mega Rayquaza just doesn't do enough (the only use I see is running double Mega and only if you can fit regular Rayquaza in your team instead of a more versatile Dragon).

This meta is going to be about the Primal.

 

[Alatar VGC]

Mega Rayquaza just doesn't do enough (the only use I see is running double Mega and only if you can fit regular Rayquaza in your team instead of a more versatile Dragon).

This meta is going to be about the Primal.

For the moment yes. But everyone is forgetting that we have access to some pretty dangerous mons that have nothing to do with the weather. Lets keep an open mind.

 

[Theo-92]

Mega Rayquaza just doesn't do enough (the only use I see is running double Mega and only if you can fit regular Rayquaza in your team instead of a more versatile Dragon).

This meta is going to be about the Primal.

I was thinking this the other day and it could happen seeing as Rayquaza is rather powerful as it is. Use it for certain mons and when you need more power just mega evolve.

 

[Psynergy]

Mega Rayquaza just doesn't do enough (the only use I see is running double Mega and only if you can fit regular Rayquaza in your team instead of a more versatile Dragon).

This meta is going to be about the Primal.

Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Rayquaza are the two best Megas in the format by far so it's not hard to fit Rayquaza on a team with two Megas (in fact it's pretty easy when there are very few good Megas anyway). Rayquaza is also generally more versatile than the other dragons because regular Rayquaza is still very strong on top of Air Lock being an amazing ability. It also boasts supreme weather control, an absurd offensive typing that's only really resisted by Mawile (who is somewhat team-specific and gets murdered by Primals), one of the strongest priority moves in the format after Yveltal Sucker Punch, and the highest raw stat total which is absurdly strong no matter what format. It doesn't even really have a lot of pressing competition among restricted Dragon types either since none of them really accomplish the same things. Zekrom/Reshiram are bad, Palkia seems niche at best, and Kyurem-W is very team-specific. Giratina-O has a cool niche with double-status and Shadow Force and Rayquaza shouldn't be compared with Dialga since they're used on completely different team styles.

For what it's worth, Mega Rayquaza still proved to be better than both Primals and Xerneas in 6v6 Doubles Ubers so to say that it won't do enough in this format is really underselling it. While this format has some very noticeable differences, it's far from the truth to say that Mega Rayquaza isn't one of the best Pokemon in VGC16.

 

[B€ntley]

Fair enough. I did not try to make Rayquaza seem a lesser player by itself, but I'm really unconvinced that Mega evolving is going to be the go-to strategy with him. It's a nice option to have if your other Mega carries a bad matchup though.

 

[Azulart]

So.. it seems Shedninja is actually in consideration this meta, which I can understand because it a funky answer for Primal Kyorge and all the dragon legends in general (Barring Ray)
Any thoughts on him ?

Also, I recall someone saying here " Palkia is ninche at best " I'm not completely sure if Lustrous Orb is legal but I am not sure if Ninche at best is best defined for Palkia since it has quite some perks against a lot of mons in the meta.

- Deals well with Kyorge
- Outspeeds Groudon and wins against him with Spacial Rend
- Outspeeds Regular Rayquaza and can kill it in the first turn with Feint support for example
- Its 100 base speed outspeeds the majority of the standard 90-95 base speed of the legendary mons

He seems just quite effective in general if the unique item is legal too, I just have my doubts about him being ninche, he just seems better than that.

Also I would like to start a discussion about effective play styles in this metagame ( So not weather kind of plays but different ones )
take Perish Song for example or rather defensive kind of plays with Light Screen / Reflect which I can also see functioning well in this meta, or weird stuff like Choice scarf Final Gambit Staraptor

I am very open to hear anyones ideas or experiences since I personally like to think out of the box and not go with the standard kind of gameplay

 

[Mega Altaria]

I'm not completely sure if Lustrous Orb is legal but I am not sure if Ninche at best is best defined for Palkia since it has quite some perks against a lot of mons in the meta.

I'm very sure that Lustrous Orb isn't banned from VGC, like the only banned item is the Soul Dew.

 

[EKZ1505]

So.. it seems Shedninja is actually in consideration this meta, which I can understand because it a funky answer for Primal Kyorge and all the dragon legends in general (Barring Ray)
Any thoughts on him ?

Also, I recall someone saying here " Palkia is ninche at best " I'm not completely sure if Lustrous Orb is legal but I am not sure if Ninche at best is best defined for Palkia since it has quite some perks against a lot of mons in the meta.

- Deals well with Kyorge
- Outspeeds Groudon and wins against him with Spacial Rend
- Outspeeds Regular Rayquaza and can kill it in the first turn with Feint support for example
- Its 100 base speed outspeeds the majority of the standard 90-95 base speed of the legendary mons

He seems just quite effective in general if the unique item is legal too, I just have my doubts about him being ninche, he just seems better than that.

Also I would like to start a discussion about effective play styles in this metagame ( So not weather kind of plays but different ones )
take Perish Song for example or rather defensive kind of plays with Light Screen / Reflect which I can also see functioning well in this meta, or weird stuff like Choice scarf Final Gambit Staraptor

I am very open to hear anyones ideas or experiences since I personally like to think out of the box and not go with the standard kind of gameplay

I wouldn't recommend Shedinja since it exerts zero offensive pressure and has absolutely no value in a tournament setting, even if your opponent can't hit it. It could be usable on showdown in certain situations though.

Lustrous Orb is legal on Palkia (only Soul Dew is still banned for some reason). I think it's a solid Pokemon here, but far from a top tier threat. Kyogre puts about the same damage out against it that Palkia does to Kyogre:
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 76-90 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 84-100 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO (keep in mind this is Modest Palkia (it seems you may have been talking Timid since it "outspeeds" standard 90-95 speed legends) and a Kyogre with essentially no defensive investment (likely very rare)).

IF harsh sun is up, it still can have trouble with Groudon as well since Spacial Rend can't OHKO. Precipice Blades does a lot of damage (it can potentially OHKO from full health if 1v1), but it will completely depend on the situation. I definitely think it can be effective if used and supported well.

I saw a few top players think Perish Trap will be terrible due to the power increase, and I completely agree. I battled it a few times on Showdown and had no trouble at all. It's just too passive for this format.

Dual screens definitely can work as long your team still puts up enough offensive pressure to take advantage of them. I ran a Klefki with screens during the Generation Showdown competition when I first started VGC, and it did very well (20-10 I believe) despite my limited knowledge of doubles at the time.

Wide Guard (against all those EQs, Precipice Blades, Eruptions, Water Spouts, Origin Pulses, Dazzling Gleams, etc.) can be very useful here, as can redirection. A lot of the top Wide Guard and redirection users from 2015 (Aegislash, Togekiss, Clefable, Clefairy, Amoongus, etc.) and previous years (Hitmontop?) could be good here. One fun Pokemon I kinda wanna try out is Focus Sash Parasect (stop laughing lol). I have no idea if it would be good since it won't do anything offensively, but it gets Wide Guard, Rage Powder, Spore, and Dry Skin. Can really play some mind games with the opponent if you play correctly, and it's a great Trick Room counter. It can actually live an Adamant M-Kang's Double-Edge with room to spare!

 

[Yumeka]

VGC 2016 will be my first time playing competitively with the big mascot legendaries (I'm relatively new to VGC) and I was wondering, what's the best way to get legendaries with good IVs? I know they're all guaranteed to have at least 3 perfect IVs, but is there any way to increase your chances of getting more than that? Do most veteran VGC players just spend hours soft resetting until they get that one legendary with the 5 perfect IVs they need? I'm afraid to ask how long that usually takes. Or do most people settle for just 3 or 4 perfect IVs on these pokemon? I'm planning to get another copy of Pokemon X so I can get a competitive-ready Xerneas and Mewtwo and I want to have an idea of what I'm in for as far as how necessary it is to try to get them with all perfect IVs...

 

[AJ2000]

VGC 2016 will be my first time playing competitively with the big mascot legendaries (I'm relatively new to VGC) and I was wondering, what's the best way to get legendaries with good IVs? I know they're all guaranteed to have at least 3 perfect IVs, but is there any way to increase your chances of getting more than that? Do most veteran VGC players just spend hours soft resetting until they get that one legendary with the 5 perfect IVs they need? I'm afraid to ask how long that usually takes. Or do most people settle for just 3 or 4 perfect IVs on these pokemon? I'm planning to get another copy of Pokemon X so I can get a competitive-ready Xerneas and Mewtwo and I want to have an idea of what I'm in for as far as how necessary it is to try to get them with all perfect IVs...

I've been out of the competitive scene for a while now, so I'm trying to get back into it, but when I entered VGC 2010 (which also used legendaries), I think most people RNG'd them. However, if I recall, I don't think there is proper RNG abuse for the 6th gen games yet, I could be wrong though. With that said, what I ended up doing in X/Y/ORAS, is I would just keep resetting and catching a legendary until it had pretty good IVs, as I would usually settle for 4 perfect IVs and another decent one (usually 28 or above). It only takes me about half an hour, but I imagine if you wanted something really specific, it would take hours of resetting :/ And of course I would just send out a natured-preferred Poke with Synchronize to get the nature I want with said legendary.

 

[Azulart]

I wouldn't recommend Shedinja since it exerts zero offensive pressure and has absolutely no value in a tournament setting, even if your opponent can't hit it. It could be usable on showdown in certain situations though.

Lustrous Orb is legal on Palkia (only Soul Dew is still banned for some reason). I think it's a solid Pokemon here, but far from a top tier threat. Kyogre puts about the same damage out against it that Palkia does to Kyogre:
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 76-90 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 84-100 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO (keep in mind this is Modest Palkia (it seems you may have been talking Timid since it "outspeeds" standard 90-95 speed legends) and a Kyogre with essentially no defensive investment (likely very rare)).

IF harsh sun is up, it still can have trouble with Groudon as well since Spacial Rend can't OHKO. Precipice Blades does a lot of damage (it can potentially OHKO from full health if 1v1), but it will completely depend on the situation. I definitely think it can be effective if used and supported well.

I saw a few top players think Perish Trap will be terrible due to the power increase, and I completely agree. I battled it a few times on Showdown and had no trouble at all. It's just too passive for this format.

Dual screens definitely can work as long your team still puts up enough offensive pressure to take advantage of them. I ran a Klefki with screens during the Generation Showdown competition when I first started VGC, and it did very well (20-10 I believe) despite my limited knowledge of doubles at the time.

Wide Guard (against all those EQs, Precipice Blades, Eruptions, Water Spouts, Origin Pulses, Dazzling Gleams, etc.) can be very useful here, as can redirection. A lot of the top Wide Guard and redirection users from 2015 (Aegislash, Togekiss, Clefable, Clefairy, Amoongus, etc.) and previous years (Hitmontop?) could be good here. One fun Pokemon I kinda wanna try out is Focus Sash Parasect (stop laughing lol). I have no idea if it would be good since it won't do anything offensively, but it gets Wide Guard, Rage Powder, Spore, and Dry Skin. Can really play some mind games with the opponent if you play correctly, and it's a great Trick Room counter. It can actually live an Adamant M-Kang's Double-Edge with room to spare!

I have seen the JPN VGC16 sample teams on nugget bridge, it was funny to see someone actually bringing along Golduck and Shedninja. Golduck also had Soak in its disposal which can be used on Shedninja for shenanigans.

The pokemon you mentioned have indeed good positions in this metagame, as an VGC player I can tell they will function well.. I would also like to give Clefairy a mention since Friend Guard seems really good with the majority of legends with there great natural Bulk.

And no, parasect seems like a great idea actually in conjunction with Primal Kyorge, first it blocks fire moves which parasect hates and gets recovery aswell.. I have seen people run Quiet Kyorge's so the trick room setting seems great with each other. I would say give it a go and let us know how you experciened using parasect xD

Mega Scizor also seems quite strong in this metagame with Kyorge as partner, the natural bulk is very appreciated and is able to shrug of Dragon acsent from Ray and after a sword dance it can kill Ray with bullet punch next turn. Also.. since every legendary mons carries Protect, feint is such a great move imo. Not to mention that it gives a nice answer towards Xerneas too.

VGC 2016 will be my first time playing competitively with the big mascot legendaries (I'm relatively new to VGC) and I was wondering, what's the best way to get legendaries with good IVs? I know they're all guaranteed to have at least 3 perfect IVs, but is there any way to increase your chances of getting more than that? Do most veteran VGC players just spend hours soft resetting until they get that one legendary with the 5 perfect IVs they need? I'm afraid to ask how long that usually takes. Or do most people settle for just 3 or 4 perfect IVs on these pokemon? I'm planning to get another copy of Pokemon X so I can get a competitive-ready Xerneas and Mewtwo and I want to have an idea of what I'm in for as far as how necessary it is to try to get them with all perfect IVs...

Soft reseting until you have a good one, thats basically it..

Here are some tips:

- Syncrhoniser with the nature you prefer your legend with
- If speed is important, its nice to bring a mon in the second slot (first slot the fainted synchronizer) with a speed that is 1 number below the maximum speed of the legend your after. Quite handy, because if you outspeed the legendary mon you know it doesn't have maximum speed IV.
- the IV checker, which is obvious for checking its IV
- Damage calculator in order to see the stats of a lvl 50 mon with the nature ( 30 IV gives the same stat value as 31 untrained ! )

And uhm.. patience I guess.. but don't be to picky on the legends, as long as the important IV's are on 31 you can really live with 28-29 IV's in its other stats.

Regarding the synchroniser tho, is there any influence on how much max iv's it has?
say a 6V synchroniser gives it an higher chance to encounter a mon with the same nature + More max iv's ?

 

[SilverChiko]

Something I've been looking at is a PDon + M-Camerupt TR Gravity offensive core, as in Harsh Sun they have a single weakness and enough bulk to most likely take at least one Precipice Blades along with a lot of power and while I've been liking it, I completely forgot a massive glaring weakness in the form of PKyogre. I feel like LO Thundy-I may be a useful Pokemon to take care of PKyogre although it can't switch in, not even my baby Yveltal wants to take a Thunder from it.

Would there actually be any possible way to make this core work a lot better or should I just make a new team and call my slightly ridiculous team a day?

 

[Psynergy]

Something I've been looking at is a PDon + M-Camerupt TR Gravity offensive core, as in Harsh Sun they have a single weakness and enough bulk to most likely take at least one Precipice Blades along with a lot of power and while I've been liking it, I completely forgot a massive glaring weakness in the form of PKyogre. I feel like LO Thundy-I may be a useful Pokemon to take care of PKyogre although it can't switch in, not even my baby Yveltal wants to take a Thunder from it.

Would there actually be any possible way to make this core work a lot better or should I just make a new team and call my slightly ridiculous team a day?

The issue I find with Camerupt is that it's useless outside of Trick Room, and is otherwise an inferior Groudon with special attacks instead of physical. It definitely screams a huge weakness to Kyogre + weather control even with Trick Room, but I feel Kyogre can overwhelm Trick Room teams very easily if they're not careful. Power Whip Ferrothorn is an option to take care of it, but even Ferrothorn can risk being overwhelmed by repeated Origin Pulses and Ice Beams so you'll need to be mindful of that.

 

[Alatar VGC]

The issue I find with Camerupt is that it's useless outside of Trick Room, and is otherwise an inferior Groudon with special attacks instead of physical. It definitely screams a huge weakness to Kyogre + weather control even with Trick Room, but I feel Kyogre can overwhelm Trick Room teams very easily if they're not careful. Power Whip Ferrothorn is an option to take care of it, but even Ferrothorn can risk being overwhelmed by repeated Origin Pulses and Ice Beams so you'll need to be mindful of that.

Erm. Not to be picky. But why would you use Mega Camperupt and Primal G on the same team? The other team members really need to be able to cover one of those mons weaknesses. Which is hard to do if both of them are out at the same time :|

On a different note. I had a few VGC 16 matches with a few people on my friends list. Mainly a girl called Miono. It was very interesting seeing how much damage thing can take. Also the amount of times precipice blades missed was phenomenal.

Cradilly shuts down scarf Golduck, as i'm sure your also aware. But funny thing is, that STAB'd + 1 ancient power from Cradilly onto a Mega Mence switch deals about 70=75% damage. Pretty impressive coming off a + defensive nature.

Brave Groudon under trick room outspeeds and OHKO's Ferrothorn too.

Just my two cents.

 

[SilverChiko]

Erm. Not to be picky. But why would you use Mega Camperupt and Primal G on the same team? The other team members really need to be able to cover one of those mons weaknesses. Which is hard to do if both of them are out at the same time :|

Because it was a silly idea I had and I haven't built another team since.

I'm leaning more towards a P-Kyogre TR team and I really want to bring my boy Crawdaunt back but I can't see that going well in VGC'16.

 

[Alatar VGC]

Because it was a silly idea I had and I haven't built another team since.

I'm leaning more towards a P-Kyogre TR team and I really want to bring my boy Crawdaunt back but I can't see that going well in VGC'16.

Oh I see. :3

Yeah. After using Groudon a few times. Idk I just can't seem to warm to it tbh. Sure it's a beast, but it's slow as and even with that bulk it doesn't appreciate double targeting. I say that and I run protect on mine. I also mean that outside of TR it struggles tbh. Yes I had a TR user, but it's not always easy to pull off. :3

Primal K i'm leaning towards too! Scarf Golduck does very little to it. Being able to threaten Mence is always appreciated. I've been toying pairing it with "Thunder" thundurus.